Palm OS Apps on Linux Mobile Phones

An anonymous reader writes "PalmSource revealed details of its Linux-based mobile phone operating system, Tuesday at 3GSM in Barcelona. Codenamed ALP (Access Linux Platform), the architecture supports Palm OS application binaries, Java apps, and native Linux apps. ALP includes a 68K emulation layer capable of running 'properly written' Palm 68K or 'Garnet' application binaries without modification, PalmSource claims. However, devices based on ALP are not expected until next year -- will it be too late for PalmSource and it's parent company ACCESS to gain a foothold in the mobile phone market?"

Comments

PalmSource Open Sources Binder

[Eugenia Loli]

PalmSource also open sourced today their Binder technology, now called OpenBinder. This futuristic architecture technology is described by engineer Dianne Hackborn in her interview.

Re:Linux, Apple, Palm Emulator

[Eugenia Loli]

You have a few things messed up. The rumors was for a purchase of Palm, not PalmSource/Access (which this news item is about). These are two completely different companies now.

why not years ago?

[penguin-collective]

They could have done this 3-5 years ago (using a Linux, BSD, or other POSIX-like kernel).

One might ask why they didn't do that. Well, for the answer look to the article on Shuttleworth: Palm's engineers had so much more fun designing a new operating system from scratch that the obvious answer eluded them, and because Palm was flying high, they had the money and resources to waste on their hare-brained project of developing their own new operating system.

Unfortunately, Palm's idiocy probably condemns us all to using PocketPC or Qt/Embedded at some point.

Re:why not years ago?

[TheRaven64]

When palm started out they were using those horribly underpowered Dragonball CPUs from Motorola. This was a cut-down 68K chip, with no MMU which ran at between 16 and 33MHz, giving a staggering 3MIPS. The lack of an MMU alone meant that they couldn't go with any Free POSIX-like OS available at the time. The lack of power made it even more certain. They could probably have licensed something like QNX, but then they would have been dependant on a third party for their OS.

Don't forget, the first Palms were released in 1996. Back then, desktop CPUs were past the 100MHz mark and pushing past one instruction per clock. The DragonBall, in comparison, had less power than a MicroVAX and, while you can run NetBSD on a MicroVAX, you really don't want to - and you'd want to even less if you had to re-write the VM subsystem to work without an MMU.

The original PalmOS was designed for a platform where features were far less important than battery life. Shoehorning a full UNIX-like OS in would have required a lot more resources, which would have driven the cost up and the battery life down - exactly the opposite of what was required.

Re:why not years ago?

[tlhIngan]

When palm started out they were using those horribly underpowered Dragonball CPUs from Motorola. This was a cut-down 68K chip, with no MMU which ran at between 16 and 33MHz, giving a staggering 3MIPS. The lack of an MMU alone meant that they couldn't go with any Free POSIX-like OS available at the time. The lack of power made it even more certain. They could probably have licensed something like QNX, but then they would have been dependant on a third party for their OS.

Actually, PalmOS was designed to handle the "underpowered" DragonBall - despite only running at 16MHz, it still managed a respectable speed (instant on, extremely fast app-switching). Not only that, but by using a really underpowered CPU, they could squeeze a month's worth of battery life out of 2 AAA batteries (!). PalmOS was designed around its hardware limitations to offer acceptable to superior performance, compared to OSes with far superior processors (PocketPC was usable once it started using 133MHz and faster CPUs. They didn't tend to use regular batteries.).

And the main core kernel actually is licensed - they use the Kadak AMX kernel. Unfortunately, one of the problems with the kernel was although it was multithreaded (PalmOS *is* multithreaded), Palm could not expose any APIs that created any threads. Thus, you have your single-process multi-threaded OS (the original palmOS ran on 3 threads - the main application thread, a serial port thread, and one thread reserved for the Find operation. The serial port thread heandles all the serial communications (hotsync, modem, etc), while the find thread handles doing application searches.

Re:why not years ago?

[isaac]

They could probably have licensed something like QNX, but then they would have been dependant on a third party for their OS.

They did. Palm OS used the AMX kernel from Kadak.

-Isaac

Re:why not years ago?

[penguin-collective]

Don't forget, the first Palms were released in 1996.

That's why I said "3-5 years ago", not "10 years ago". The original PalmOS was a reasonable business decision

But as soon as they switched to ARM, they should have moved to Linux or BSD. They could have done so with less effort than it took them to produce PalmOS 5, and they could have preserved full backwards compatibility. They missed the boat again (and wasted even more money) when they developed Cobalt. PalmOS 5 and Cobalt were both big business blunders.

PalmOS was designed around its hardware limitations to offer acceptable to superior performance,

Frankly, even the first Palm Pilot hardware would have been perfectly capable of running a multitasking POSIX-compliant operating system. But there's no point complaining about that because the first Palm Pilot was commercially successful and did what it was supposed to do. But around PalmOS 3, it became clear that PalmOS was in deep trouble, and the failure to act decisively back then is what will have killed Palm. Palm screwed up and they only have themselves to blame for their predicament.

YaY (Yet another Yawn)?

[otis wildflower]

This whole 'Linux phone' thing has, to date, sucked for hobbyists. Motorola? Suck.

At least SonyEricsson has released free toolchains... For Symbian.

Where oh where is the phone vendor that will release a smartphone with the ability to load custom-written Linux apps ala .SIS files for Symbian, without a great deal of reverse engineering? Pick a toolset and run with it, preferably something that allows for easy porting from existing OSS apps?

But of course, normal people don't buy smartphones, cell companies do. So it won't happen. Oh well.

Re:YaY (Yet another Yawn)?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where oh where is the phone vendor that will release a smartphone with the ability to load custom-written Linux apps ala .SIS files for Symbian, without a great deal of reverse engineering? Pick a toolset and run with it, preferably something that allows for easy porting from existing OSS apps?

It is not possible to get FCC type approval for mobile phones if the software can be modified by the user. So as long as Linux is not safely separated from the communication software, just as an application running inside an Java/MIDP sandbox is unable to affect the behavior of the host system, there won't be any genuine 'open source' access to the phones running Linux.

will it be too late for PalmSource?

[Savage-Rabbit]

...will it be too late for PalmSource and it's parent company ACCESS to gain a foothold in the mobile phone market?

I sure hope not. Windows Mobile seems to be well on it's way toward taking over a significant portion of this market which needs competition. It will certainly be interesting to see how this market evolves since Linux, and other OS'es have more of a fair chance against Microsoft here than on the Desktop market. Even so I expect Windows Mobile to have a great advantage due to it's high degree of integration with Exchange and now that Exchange has 'Push Mail' RIM also has a reason to worry.

Re:will it be too late for PalmSource?

[zlogic]

Most "smartphones" I have seen were Symbian-based Nokias. I've seen a WinMobile-powered phone (all of them Motorolas) only three times in my life. And one of these phones was force-rebooted twice in 20 minutes. You may become quite angry when you were playing a really difficult level in some game and an importaint incoming call froze the phone completely.

They fit...

[Expert Determination]

...this much stuff in something as small as a phone! Imagine what PalmSource could do if they wrote the OS for something as large as a microwave oven. Or even a refrigerator.

PINE

[truthsearch]

They should have named it PINE - Pine Is Not an Emulator.

Gain a foothold?

[Andy Dodd]

Given that Palm Inc. is one of PalmSource's largest licensees, I would say that PalmSource already has a pretty big foothold in the mobile market.

The Treo 600 was pretty popular, the Treo 650 is incredibly popular (and is getting huge amounts of product placement in TV shows and movies - even teenagers are packing 650s in Smallville! :) ), and while the initial release of the Verizon Treo 700w is Windows Mobile based, there are lots of rumors with some substantiation that a Sprint Treo 700p is under development. The Treo 750 may likely be using this new Linux-based PalmOS version.

BTW, a Linux-based PalmOS isn't exactly new news - it's been known for quite a while that the next generation of PalmOS was going to be based on Linux.

Re:Gain a foothold?

[ecki]

... a pretty big foothold in the mobile market.

Only in the US.

Re:Gain a foothold?

[HaydnH]

And in Europe... I know plenty of people (including myself) that own either Treo's or some other palm PDA... actually... I know only 2 people who have had a Win Mobile phone/PDA's here, one of those got rid of it in exchange for a palm as quick as possible.

Re:Gain a foothold?

[WhiteDragon]

I saw an apparent Treo product placement in an unlikely place, Strong Bad Email #144. (not labeled, but Pom Pom is using a high-tech phone that looks like a Treo, even with the oval by the speaker area) This was pretty cool to me, as I have a Treo 650.

Great... single tasking, crashing phones

[MMHere]

Great!

Now, not only will my new phone be unable to run more than one task at the same time, but it'll also crash a few times a week.

too little, too late

[slackaddict]

Palm et. al. has so embarassingly snatched defeat from the jaws of victory that this won't even begin to make a dent in the handheld market. What this appears to be is a way to generate some buzz about a once great company by throwing the word "Linux" in a press release.

What PalmSource needs to do is license an embedded Linux OS (embedix, maybe?) or create their own, pretty up the GUI, port their killer apps and come out as a major alternative to Windows Mobile. I would gladly purchase a Linux handheld if a current, serious one existed and I'm sure I'm not the only one who shares this sentiment.

never too late

[johansalk]

It's never too late when you go with linux or java, and especially so when you add Palm apps to that.

Windows Mobile has won

[abelikoff]

This is for all those idealists, who were saying that Treo 700w was actually a good move for PalmOS. Unfortunately it was not. Rather it was a beginning of PalmOS's end.

I say, good riddance. As much as I loved my Palm III, those days are gone and Palm has been wandering aimlessly chasing one target after another and making all kinds of ridiculous mistakes.

As much as I disagree, the market has chosen features over minimalism (it always does, BTW). No matter how ridiculous it is to watch movies on a 4" screen, this is what consumers want and Microsoft answered a call while Palm actually tried to tell consumers that they actually would not want to do that.

Overall it's a damn shame. Palm was a good (not great) platform and it could continue eating Microsoft's lunch. Instead, they literally sat and watched Microsoft learning from their mistakes and stealing their market. Just imagine the humiliation of pushing Windows Mobile on Treos!
On to Linux. I am yet to see a practical PDA running embedded Linux. No, Zaurus doesn't count - those are more like exotic geek gadgets rather than consumer devices. I would love it PalmSource actually pulled this off and managed to finally create one, but I know better. I predict that whatever_this_company_is_now_called will be off the market before the device hits the shelves. In about 1-2 years the PDA market will be 100% Windows Mobile. The battle will shift into the smartphone space with Symbian and Windows Mobile being the biggest players and everyone else feeding off the table crumbs.

Re:Windows Mobile has won

[MagicMike]

That was the least coherent post I've seen in a while.

Have you seen the treo 650? I watch movies on it on it's screen.

What was your point again? Because I have no idea, but you seem so intent on something, I really am curious :-)

For the record, I don't think the 700w is a bad thing - there are people that will always use MacOS and people who will always use Windows, would it be bad for Dell to sell them both the hardware? Because that's how the PalmSource / Palm relationship is now. Palm can sell everyone the hardware now, regardless of what OS they want.

And I'll continue to pick the PalmOS ones, because the UI is nicer (a la MacOS for desktops...)

Re:Windows Mobile has won

[abelikoff]

That was the least coherent post I've seen in a while.

Thank you. You have a nice day too.

For the record, I don't think the 700w is a bad thing - there are people that will always use MacOS and people who will always use Windows, would it be bad for Dell to sell them both the hardware? Because that's how the PalmSource / Palm relationship is now. Palm can sell everyone the hardware now, regardless of what OS they want.

I was not talking about Palm, the hardware company. Those guys will survive - they produce very nice hardware (Treo, LifeDrive) and they do have a market niche. I was talking about Palm, the software vendor (PalmSource or whatever it is now). These guys will go.

And I'll continue to pick the PalmOS ones, because the UI is nicer (a la MacOS for desktops...)

IMHO, you will not. Here's how I see it unfolding: in about 1-2 years there will be no new PalmOS based PDAs and most probably, Treo model line-up will also convert to 'w'. LifeDrive will hold the fort for some time before dropping PalmOS as well. The great new Linux-based embedded OS to replace PalmOS will never materialize (at least not from the PalmOS vendor) and the assets will be eventually sold to someone planning to enter this market (maybe Apple). Again, this is what I think and you can actually bug me 2 years from now reminding me how wise/stupid I was. :-)

Re:Windows Mobile has won

[MagicMike]

Hey - you could certainly be right, though I would be sad if you were.

I see it a bit different though, miniaturization being what it is, and the Treo 650 already being so close to a general purpose computer, we'll just see those bizarre MIT Media Lab / Snowcrash gargoyle visions come to pass. And you just can't keep Linux off general-purpose computers - price pressures dictate standardization which dictates open interfaces, and the next thing you know, there's Linux and the BSDs running happily on them.

All with a 1 year lag for adequate hardware support, of course, but still.

I hope, anyway

Re:Windows Mobile has won

[RichiP]

If you're addressing idealists, then it doesn't matter who wins. They will still continue on working on the projects that they're interested in. If you mean to discourage them with your words, shame on you. I doubt many of these tech-savvy people are so aloof as not to be aware that one technology or another has become a de facto standard.

Re:Windows Mobile has won

[Planesdragon]

This is for all those idealists, who were saying that Treo 700w was actually a good move for PalmOS. Unfortunately it was not. Rather it was a beginning of PalmOS's end.

The 700w is a good move for PALM. Not PalmSource. Nothing says "we're here to make hardware" like running the other guy's OS.

Oh, and I've got a pair of PDAs that I regularly watch movies or recorded TVs on. Both from Palm. Both, although plauged by an eargly-adopter syndrome (LifeDrive), work as fine and simply as anything I've ever had.

I find it rather unlikely that Windows Mobile will ever reach total PDA domination. Palm's got too strong a userbase, even with all of their mistakes -- and they've got too much of an advantage with the introductory model level.

Re:Windows Mobile has won

[zlogic]

I can't believe this is modded troll!
I know a lot of people that want an uncrashable PDA with support for simple games, books and low power consumption.
For example, I've switched from a Toshiba e310 to a Palm Zire 71, then to a Sony Clie SJ22 and a separate cd-mp3 player for music.

Wow, tough crowd

[WebCowboy]

This whole 'Linux phone' thing has, to date, sucked for hobbyists.

With all due respect, with that attitude it sounds like the lack of progress for Linux in this market space has as much to do with the hobbyist community as it does with the manufacturers of these devices. If every open-source-related announcement by an ISV or gadget-maker is met with a response like this from hobbyists there won't be much enthusiasm to keep going down the Free Software path.

Pretty much every company out there in the wireless mobile market doesn't quite "get it" yet when it comes to Free Software, because their legacy and corporate culture is rooted in a highly-proprietary mindset. Normally, everything is patented, encumbered and non-disclosed up the wazoo. It'll take some time for the marketplace to adjust to a modernised business model based on open technology, and Hobbyists, and the Free Software community in general, should offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and real solutions rather than just complaining. IMHO, it looks like this new ALP system has a lot going for it, if only it can land the big backers it needs to get adopted.

Pick a toolset and run with it, preferably something that allows for easy porting from existing OSS apps?

Umm...isn't that exactly what is happening here? Yes, they have engineered their own API, but it looks to me that GTK+ and GStreamer are important components of the new platform. The "open source ecosystem" seems quite unencumbered from an IP standpoint and would certainly not present a porting challenge for existing OSS apps. From that standpoint mobile devices based on this platform should be fairly hobbyist-friendly.

But of course, normal people don't buy smartphones, cell companies do. So it won't happen.

Therein lies the rub. Furthermore, even if a "normal person" bought a smartphone directly, that person would have to subscribe to service s provided by a cell company, and cell comanies are in the "content provider" game first and foremost--and smartphones are just delivery mechanisms in their view. Cell companies want the most whiz-bang "content delivery device" money can buy--the one that can push as many bytes per second, has the most toys like cameras, music players, big bright colour screens, etc. They don't give a crap what the programming toolkit is or about JAR files or SIS files or any of that other properller-head stuff. In fact, if an engineer boasted of the ability to allow end users to plug in custom software it would be seen as a liability because it circumvents their revenue-generating content-delivery system, and furthermore they would lose control over the environment (remember the corporate culture we are dealing with here)

I guess the technical aspect is only half the solution. The rest of the solution is to reform the wireless telecommunications industry in north America (I think it is telling that mobile wireless devices based on Linux are a much larger presence in Asia and parts of Europe).

Third-Party Developers

[RichiP]

I just hope they'll be more friendly to third-party developers. Nurturing them instead of alienating them. Palm has always had a great rapport with third-party devs. In fact, a huge number of the apps available for the Palm were developed not only by third-party app developers but by free and open source software developers.

So far, Linux phones like the Motorola ones and many based on QTopia have been met with resentment by 3rd party devs. OpenEZX laments that it can't even access certain functionality through native API calls, much less roll out their own kernel.

Foothold?

[biglig2]

"will it be too late for PalmSource and it's parent company ACCESS to gain a foothold in the mobile phone market?"

Well, in my opinion the three best smartphones on the market right now are the Sony P910i, the Treo 650, and the HTC Magician, so they have some sort of a foothold. ;-)

won again? ha ha ha.

[twitter]

In about 1-2 years the PDA market will be 100% Windows Mobile. The battle will shift into the smartphone space with Symbian and Windows Mobile being the biggest players and everyone else feeding off the table crumbs.

Steve, just promise me you won't break any chairs of fucking kill anyone when your little wet dream does not work any better than Xbox or tablet PCs.

the market has chosen features over minimalism (it always does, BTW). No matter how ridiculous it is to watch movies on a 4" screen, this is what consumers want and Microsoft answered a call while Palm actually tried to tell consumers that they actually would not want to do that.

PDA sales are in the dirt right now. I suspect it has something to do with a planned lack of choices outside expensive but underperforming WinCE machines and constantly breaking Windoze syncs. Those losers can't even get handwriting recognition right. Saying that Windoze mobile has won in a market like that is not saying much. They might have "won" but they did it by killing the market and it's not going to get any better till choice comes back.

Oh yeah, one more reason for poor sales is good devices. I'm still happily syncing my handspring visor with Kontact and KPilot and those programs continue to improve it's capabilities. Here's three cheers for marking contact birthdays in my calendar.

Re:won again? ha ha ha.

[dfghjk]

PDA's are dead because no one wants them, not because MS killed them. People want their PDA functions integrated into phones.

Wrong reasons, but some chances for PalmSource

[spage]

People want to push the ON button and be able to make calls, check emails, text each other and just have it work.

Then PalmSource is doomed. You can do all that with a generic closed handset.

PalmOS's value is the strong PDA integration and available third-party apps. You're right that a lot of users don't care about those benefits: Sanyo and Samsung sell better high-end multimedia phones that don't use PalmOS (or WinCE, or Symbian).

Get cell providers and manufacturers, etc on board and you're set.

But U.S. cell providers don't want rich extensible devices, they want to sell you $2 ringtones, $3 music downloads, $10/month online photo albums, and address book backup for $2/month. An extensible smart phone with PC syncing works against their business model. As WebCowboy wrote,"it circumvents their revenue-generating content-delivery system, and furthermore they would lose control over the environment".

I really wish PalmSource/Access well. I'm using and loving a Samsung sph-i500 PDA phone, with the included Chapura PocketMirror syncing my Outlook contacts, the excellent Novii Remote acting as an infrared A/V control, and GNU Keyring to secure my passwords. It's over three years old, and no other flip phone comes close to meeting my needs. There are PalmOS-based phones (GSPDA, Xplore M68) available elsewhere in the world, but the market in the US has shrunk to the fine Treo 650.

Re:Wrong reasons, but some chances for PalmSource

[WebCowboy]

But U.S. cell providers don't want rich extensible devices, they want to sell you $2 ringtones, $3 music downloads, $10/month online photo albums, and address book backup for $2/month.

Actually, I think cellphone companies would LOVE to have "rich, extensible devices". When I referred to "circumventing their revenue-generating content-delivery system" I meant in terms of USER-CONTROLLED extensibility--most notably the ability for hobbyists to "hack" their smartphones and plug in their own programs via a local connection (outside the cellphone network). Phone companies would be deleriously happy if they could provide "product upgrades" through their service in order to add functionality to the smartphones on their system (at 'x' dollars per update of course, followed by a 'y' dollars per month charge to use the new feature).

Big, monopolistic companies like cellphone and cable companies are usually quite receptive to new technology, so long as it is marketed to them from the "right angle" (that is, it gives them MORE CONTROL over the user experience, along with enriching the user experience itself).

Re:won again? ha ha ha.

[abelikoff]

Whoa! From level 3 straight down to Troll just because I didn't drink the Palm CoolAid. I'm becoming a Slashdotter, I guess... :-)

Steve, just promise me you won't break any chairs of fucking kill anyone when your little wet dream does not work any better than Xbox or tablet PCs.

Facing such an impeccable logic, I cannot really argue. You won.

PDA sales are in the dirt right now. I suspect it has something to do with a planned lack of choices outside expensive but underperforming WinCE machines and constantly breaking Windoze syncs. Those losers can't even get handwriting recognition right. Saying that Windoze mobile has won in a market like that is not saying much. They might have "won" but they did it by killing the market and it's not going to get any better till choice comes back.

You are wrong (IMHO). "Expensive?" Wrong! You cannot find something in sub-$100 tier but there are plenty in the $100-$250 one. Which is not really expensive. This is not a gadget one buys every month or every year. "Underperforming?" Wrong again! Unless you belong to the elite group of people who run Monte-Carlo simulations on PDAs, the hardware performance is just right. One probably needs only one 10th of it to read e-mail and run Contacts/Calendar. Maybe even less. For God's sake, my Axim x50v is not less powerful than a top-of-the-line 486-33 workstation, I used to work on in 1994.

Even though I am biased here (I spend most of my time in Linux, not Windows) it is easy to see where the market goes once you stop closing your eyes and ears and chanting "losers" and "Windoze." As I said before, you can partially praise Microsoft for doing their homework and creating a highly useful product in Windows Mobile (despite arguments presented here, I am yet to observe that dreaded "instability" in my x50v and neither do I see that in PDAs of my colleagues and friends). Then, you can also thank Palm for screwing it up by letting PalmOS be stagnant for years while Microsoft was busy improving their product and winning the market share.

Oh yeah, one more reason for poor sales is good devices. I'm still happily syncing my handspring visor with Kontact and KPilot and those programs continue to improve it's capabilities. Here's three cheers for marking contact birthdays in my calendar.

That's wonderful. The only minor issue here is that 99.99% of the PDA users don't give a crap. They sync with Outlook and corporate Exchange.

Single Core?

[thaig]

It would be interesting to know if ALP can support single core CPUs - where the same CPU runs the GSM/CDMA stack and all the applications as well. This is going to be a critical factor in the total cost of the operating system + handset and is an area where Symbian has a long head start over Windows Mobile.

Symbian was sold on 10.9 million handsets in the last quarter - making it an attractive target for developers such as myself. I am not denying Palm's product could be awesome but it seems to have a hell of a long way to catch up.

Cheers,

Tim

Re:Single Core?

[HaydnH]

Symbian was sold on 10.9 million handsets in the last quarter - making it an attractive target for developers such as myself. I am not denying Palm's product could be awesome but it seems to have a hell of a long way to catch up.

I totally disagree. While Symbian may have sold 10.9 million handsets, how many of these are bought by people that don't even know what Symbian means? I'm sure most of those handsets are used by people that have never installed a Symbian app and only use it as a standard phone. (My technophobic parents for example)

People who buy Palm based phones (I have a T650 myself) tend to use palm apps - that's why they went for a Palm based phone in the first place. Just because x million handsets supporting y have been sold doesn't mean that there are x million users of y!

If I was going to decide to develop for profit for either though I would go with Symbian though - how many Palm apps are there already? 10s of thousands? 100s of thousands? When comparing that to Symbian you're much more likely to find a product that hasn't been made already for Symbian. However, if I wanted to develop for my own personal use or as a hobby I'd stick to Palm - at least I could use what I created.

Haydn.

Re:Future of PalmOne?

[Merle Darling]

Hi, I'm offtopic, whatever. That you, stultus? Greetings from spasmfrog.