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Cellphone Could Crack RFID Tags

diverge_s writes "Adi Shamir of RSA is at it again. This time pointing out flaws in RFID systems. From the article: 'I haven't tested all RFID tags, but we did test the biggest brand and it is totally unprotected,' Shamir said. Using this approach, 'a cellphone has all the ingredients you need to conduct an attack and compromise all the RFID tags in the vicinity.'"

138 comments

  1. Link to the dude itself, dude! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here's the cryptographer's panel:
    http://media.omediaweb.com/rsa2006/1_5/1_5_High.as x

    Prof Shamir comes on at 6:15, but I recommend watching the whole hour through.

  2. Shamir by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Remember though that Shamir (the S of RSA) was one of the first people to apply for a software patent for the RSA patent, and hasn't been shy of enforcing it. Thus, he shall be shamed and loathed by the slashdot community.

    1. Re:Shamir by ajs318 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The patent should never have been awarded in the first place. For one thing, mathematics should never be patentable. For another, there was already Prior Art invented at GCHQ in the UK -- but because of its nature, it was kept hushed-up.

      The patent was never applicable in the UK nor the EU.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    2. Re:Shamir by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For one thing, mathematics should never be patentable. For another, there was already Prior Art invented at GCHQ in the UK -- but because of its nature, it was kept hushed-up.

      This "prior art" did not count as it was unpublished. However the point about the mathematics is exactly correct. Shamir is one of the the greatest trinity of conmen to ever plauge the computer industry.

      If you ever want to know why you still don't have encrypted email, this guy is 33.33333....% of the reason.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    3. Re:Shamir by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Publication doesn't matter, of course you have the burden of proof...

    4. Re:Shamir by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      one of the first people to apply for a software patent for the RSA patent

      That should say "...patent for the RSA algorithm" and I should cut down on my crack habit.

    5. Re:Shamir by p2sam · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Good bye karma, this post SUPPORTS patenting mathematics and software. Moderators, please read full post before moderating ...

      I disagree. Many non-trivial and ingenious algorithms in math ought to be as patentable as other fields. Developing an algorithm to perform a useful task, or significantly improving an existing algorithm to perform a useful task, is no different than other fields. It requires time, resources, effort, and ingeniouty.

      The thing that I object to is the blanket patent period of 17 years that apply uniformly to all patents. The situation does not call for a one size fill all solution. The period of 17 years was probably decided a long time ago, and did not envision how rapidly the world had evolved. Even for other fields of engineering, 17 years may not always to be the most appropriate amount of time.

      In the computing world, 17 years is WAY too long. That's the equivalent of probably 5 or 6 revolutions in technologies. If patents for mathematics and computing was limited to say 2 or 3 years, then I can fully support it.

    6. Re:Shamir by jonwil · · Score: 2, Interesting

      From what I understand, the RSA patent has expired now.
      So, why havent we seen people working on a simple to use way to do encrypted email now that they dont have to pay RSA for the patent?

    7. Re:Shamir by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because people don't want it.

    8. Re:Shamir by Vainglorious+Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful
      From what I understand, the RSA patent has expired now.

      I well remember the party I attended to celebrate the patent expiry, in September 2000

      So, why havent we seen people working on a simple to use way to do encrypted email now that they dont have to pay RSA for the patent?

      Ever used Outlook? Or Thunderbird? Those email clients (and many others) do have a simple way to encrypt (and sign) email using S/MIME. The problem never was patent restrictions, rather the difficulties associated with key management (certificate management and PKI never took off the way it was originally hoped, for a number of reasons).

      --
      My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
    9. Re:Shamir by MadMidnightBomber · · Score: 2, Informative
      This "prior art" did not count as it was unpublished. However the point about the mathematics is exactly correct. Shamir is one of the the greatest trinity of conmen to ever plauge the computer industry. If you ever want to know why you still don't have encrypted email, this guy is 33.33333....% of the reason.

      Dude, 2000 called. They want their excuse back.

      The first copy of PGP was released in 1991 [1]

      The RSA patent expired in 2000. If you're in the US. I don't believe it was patented elsewhere. [2]

      I seem to remember GNU Privacy Guard working OK around 2000 [3]. Want to think of another reason why no one is encrypting email?

      --
      "It doesn't cost enough, and it makes too much sense."
    10. Re:Shamir by Fahrenheit+450 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the fact that there were plenty of other public key encryption schemes available... Sure, few of them had been analyzed like RSA had, and a few proved to be flawed over time (as RSA itself might someday), but they were there. E.g. Rabin and El Gamal were unpatented (and the tenuous Diffe-Hellman claim to El Gamal expired in 1997).

      --
      -30-
    11. Re:Shamir by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      Want to think of another reason why no one is encrypting email?

      Because unencrypted standards are firmly entrenched... thanks to RSA!

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    12. Re:Shamir by MadMidnightBomber · · Score: 1

      Want to think of another reason why no one is encrypting email?

      Because unencrypted standards are firmly entrenched... thanks to RSA!

      Yes, plaintext mail is there, but that doesn't mean that no-one supports encrypted. The reason hardly anyone does encrypted mail these days is because they don't think they need to, or can't be bothered. It's trivial to send encrypted mail if you and the person you're conversing with want to go there.

      Encryption has been retrofitted to a good many protocols, such as POP3, IMAP, SMTP and it's very easy to take advantage of if both parties care sufficiently. HTTP was also "entrenched", but there is a clear benefit from moving to HTTPS in some situations and it is easy and expected that people do so.

      --
      "It doesn't cost enough, and it makes too much sense."
    13. Re:Shamir by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      The patent should never have been awarded in the first place. For one thing, mathematics should never be patentable.

      The claim is that what was patented was not a mathematical algorithm. It was an cryptography system that USED a mathematical algorithm. (It's like the difference between patenting a process for building a car that happens to use a stamping press versus patenting the stamping press.)

      I, too, happen to think that the patent should not have issued, because it can be argued that the cryptography system itself - and any program - is a mathematical algorithm.

      However, if there is any validity to the above argument that a system consisting entirely of an algorithm could be patented if it was useful, innovative, and non-obvious, RSA would be a perfect example of such an invention.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    14. Re:Shamir by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree. Many non-trivial and ingenious algorithms in math ought to be as patentable as other fields. Developing an algorithm to perform a useful task, or significantly improving an existing algorithm to perform a useful task, is no different than other fields. It requires time, resources, effort, and ingeniouty.

      Deal, if you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that no one, anywhere, at any time prior has done the same thing. The burdon of proof should be entirely upon the patent applicant, and proof of absence of prior implementation should consist of all references to similar terms in computer science and mathematical literature and scientific publications. This means that all the patent office should have to do to discredit your claim is search their index of publications with the key words in your patent and if you don't have a citation for every result on the list, your application fails immediately. If any of the arguments you propose to demonstrate that prior authors have not considered your possible approach to solving the algorithm fail logically, your application gets denied without you knowing which one you failed.

      I don't see any reason to reward lazy pseudo-creativity for pure profit. At some point, you have to consider that you're standing entirely on the shoulders of giants. You are using compilers and operating systems that implement thousands of algorithms much more complex than any of the stupid patents we've seen on slashdot, and every single one of them is freely available because of public research and the lack of software patents. For every core algorithm, like LALR parsers or locking algorithms, CS would have been set back years, if not decades. Computers would have remained slow and buggy because the best algorithms would be too expensive. Do you really think that IBM would have shared all its inventions? We'd all be running System 390's now (if we were lucky, and it wasn't something older) because IBM would have completely restricted programming languages on other systems.

      The idea of patenting mathematics is simply mind boggling. Both Newton and Leibniz invented Calculus around the same time, and thankfully everyone was able to pick and choose which notation they used instead of being stuck with one form or the other due to licensing restrictions. What do you think would have happened if Maxwell had patented the laws of electromagentism? If Einstein had patented general relativity? You're talking about patenting the laws of nature, which is just as absurd as patenting genes. Even worse than these legitimate fields, consider what would happen when every crank patented their prized mathematical wankings and impeded true science. Just look at the noise on sci.math and sci.physics for an example of what horrible mathematical patents would be lying everywhere. There would be people suing other people over cantorian set theory!

      In the computing world, 17 years is WAY too long. That's the equivalent of probably 5 or 6 revolutions in technologies. If patents for mathematics and computing was limited to say 2 or 3 years, then I can fully support it.

      25 years, you mean? Or have you not noticed that despite technological (hell, artistic and industrial as well) acceleration, patents and copyrights have been extended, and not reduced? Despite massively more money being available per unit of time, the time limits have grown every few years? That so called intellectual property's worth is accelerating faster than the growth of anything else? That's called a bubble, and when it pops I would not like to be holding stock in any sort of intellectual property.

      Frankly, the world is changing so fast that any impediment to innovation will only postpone the singularity, perhaps indefinitely. What a waste.

    15. Re:Shamir by jonwil · · Score: 1

      The problem with S/MIME is that you need to buy a certificate which costs $$$.
      PGP (or GPG) is a better option, you dont need to buy anything
      I want to see PGP/GPG support in email programs.
      Or, at least, something that can layer on top of all major email programs and can handle PGP/GPG.

    16. Re:Shamir by Vainglorious+Coward · · Score: 1
      The problem with S/MIME is that you need to buy a certificate which costs $$$. ...I want to see PGP/GPG support in email programs.

      You can get personal certificates free from Thawte. Also, PGP add-ons are widely available, eg for Mozilla/Thunderbird, Enigmail hits the spot.

      --
      My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
  3. Good thing by agent+dero · · Score: 1, Interesting

    It's a good thing our government wants to embed these things in our passports...something we should have on us at all times when traveling outside the country...

    So wait, besides inventory tracking, why do we use RFID at all?

    --
    Error 407 - No creative sig found
    1. Re:Good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its the cheapest proximity based information storing device.

    2. Re:Good thing by 24-bit+Voxel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I cannot think of a use for it other than surveillance/tracking. I tried.

      I have heard people mention that it can help rescue teams find you if you are lost in the woods, or buried in a snowdrift. Sure, I guess it could. Considering that the majority of people don't have this happen to them on a regular basis, I concluded that was not it's intended purpose.

      Maybe the RFID makers greased lawmakers to make more money. Could happen. Maybe we are all getting tagged so that we can be 'found' easily. Could also happen.

      I wonder why this is happening when the funds could serve the citizens better by say rebuilding New Orleans or fixing our crumbling infrastructure of roads and bridges.

      Who really knows what our gov'ts real priorities are? Certainly not I.

      It is of no consequence to me as I would microwave any RFID chips I was 'forced' to wear. "Sorry officer, I really don't know why I have a huge burn hole in my ID card, but I am a really terrific driver, let me tell ya."

      Regards,
      24BV

    3. Re:Good thing by 24-bit+Voxel · · Score: 1

      Responding to my own thread, how tacky.

      Upon reflection, the officer comment I made above gave me an idea. If they could see who was driving a vehicle with the RFID scanner, and have an automatic camera take pictures when you break the law while driving, what we have a an ironclad case against the driver of the car.
      It could be that they are going to use it as a means of generating revenue in the form of tickets while simultaneously reducing the number of cops on the road for that task.

      Sounds more plausible that a national network for finding citizens, though it could certainly be a by-product.

      Just a thought,
      24BV

    4. Re:Good thing by sxpert · · Score: 4, Insightful

      (...) our government wants to embed these things in our passports (...)
      (...) besides inventory tracking (...)

      See the link yet ??

      the only explanation is that your government sees it's citizens as inventory, just like cattle

    5. Re:Good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder how far governments could actually go because of things like the Universal Human Rights:

      Article 3.

                  Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

      Article 12.

                  No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

      And in case governments want to give everyone an injection: ;-)

      Article 5

      No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

    6. Re:Good thing by MSZ · · Score: 1

      So wait, besides inventory tracking, why do we use RFID at all?
      We need to track the other kinds of state inventory, like "citizens" (or as Cato would say, the "talking livestock").

      --
      The moon is not fully subjugated. I demand a second assault wave preceded by a massive nuclear bombardment.
    7. Re:Good thing by SubtleNuance · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Contrast Free trade, and the unhindered movement of capital with immigration law.

      The international plutocracy controls virtually every western nation (south america being my one shining hope..). They write the both the Domestic law (keeping out/keeping in their labour) and their ability to move their own capital as they see fit, unhinged in any way to the community (the labour) that built it (or operates or relies on it for survival).

      I'll be honest, this is standard socialist rhetoric. But its also true. The USA, with its international monopoly on violence for the last 60 years has seen that any non-poverty-stricken nature fall in line with its policy. And the USA is the most corrupt, plutocratic nation on earth. And that is also true.

      Now, the american audience on /. is going to become alarmed, maybe indignant to my assertion (that the USA is imperialist, and uses violence to maintain its hegemony), but I'll simply ask, how did the imbalance in the first paragraph arise without this being the case?

      Is it the Capital Classes simply want to be able to "help" people by moving their capital? But not allow the movement of people? Look at the USA's relationship with Mexico for instance. Free capital trade vs. Mexicans dying in the dessert.

      The USA plutocracy realizes that the Middle Class USA may finally catch on if they permit the labour market to be "free market" too. Free markets dont exist. Never have, never will. Markets are not natural, economics isnt a natural science. It is however a legal and social construct. And, those with the biggest guns set the rules.

      In short, this off-topic post isnt about RFID as much as it is about people being capital. Capital owned by the state. The barriers to the free movement of people is evidence that the international plutocracy likes it that way.

    8. Re:Good thing by ericspinder · · Score: 1
      On my badge for work I have two authentication methods, a magnentic stripe and a RFID tag. I perfer to use the RFID tag, as one only has to 'touch' the plate with an id, and a person doesn't need to aim for a slot with it.

      Really the only way that it could be useful for surveillance/tracking is if there was a large number of cell phones 'looking' for the tag, and if 'they' were tracking a tag with a decent transmitting distance.

      --
      The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
    9. Re:Good thing by hab136 · · Score: 1
      I'll be honest, this is standard socialist rhetoric. But its also true. The USA, with its international monopoly on violence for the last 60 years has seen that any non-poverty-stricken nature fall in line with its policy. And the USA is the most corrupt, plutocratic nation on earth. And that is also true.

      Saying that the USA has an "international monopoly on violence for the last 60 years" is ridiculous.

      Sudan
      Eritrea vs. Ethiopia
      China vs. Tibet
      India vs. Pakistan
      N. Korea vs. S. Korea
      Indonesian vs E. Timor
      Russia vs. Chechnya
      Ecuador vs. Peru
      UK vs. Argentina

      These are just off the top of my head, all active in the past decade, and have nothing to do with the USA.. in fact the USA has been yelled at for not getting involved in some of these fights.

      By the way, repeating "this is true" doesn't make it so. You'd make a more persuasive argument if you had some sort of facts, not just empty rhetoric.

    10. Re:Good thing by The_ForeignEye · · Score: 1

      ...so you can check out at the grocery store faster

    11. Re:Good thing by russ1337 · · Score: 1

      If every bullet had an RFID tag, we would soon know who shot who....
      (of course there is the case of blackmarket bullets, stolen bullets, RFID being mangled on contact (so encase it in titanium). Also, an increase in cost of bullets.. that is a Chris Rock skit. This would sure make the world a 'more accountable' place. (not safer cos' the shooting can still occur).
      if the record companies can watermark music, sure someone can figure out a way to RFID bullets.

    12. Re:Good thing by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "Look at the USA's relationship with Mexico for instance. Free capital trade vs. Mexicans dying in the dessert."

      Ok...you got me on this one. What does free trade have to do with illegal aliens trying to sneak into the US? If Mexicans came to the US through legal immigration channels...they'd bypass the death in the desert thing.

      No one has a right to come into this country illegally. Frankly, I wish they'd put up landminds or booby traps to keep the borders secure. Everyone should have to come in through 'the gate'.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    13. Re:Good thing by SubtleNuance · · Score: 1

      "What does free trade have to do with illegal aliens trying to sneak into the US"

      That Mexico and USA allows the WEALTHY to move their capital at will is contrary to the notion of 'freedom' between the two nations. Not only does this capital move, but the wealthy do as well. The USA isnt so much a nation any more than it is a 'home based' for the international plutocratic classes. They arent any loyal to the USA. It is absurd to think that these Internationally Privileged People could be "loyal" to the land, people or trivial mass-market american ideals? ha! how absurd. These people use very sophisticated propaganda to control the USA, and win support for to maintain its outrageous military.

      Why do Mexicans die in the desert? Because the imbalance of wealth between these two "free trading" nations is so massive. Why is this the case? Because none of the international ruling would do anything other than exploit Mexico/Mexicans. Why would a member of the "USA resident plutocracy" care about the nation of Mexico? Or ANY nation save their current home-base?

      The USA's current financial position is a result of two things:

      1) Virgin Territory. The American Nations that our European Ancestors committed genocide against had little technology. We stole this vast, previously unexploited continent.
      2) WWII. North America didnt host any fighting in WWII. The USA did however finance the war (both sides) with arms and sundry. When Europe / Japan were rebuilding their nations, the USA got to dream up religion/consumer driven American Dream.

      So, why are Mexicans dying trying to get to the USA? Because you keep them out simply. Let them in, freely.

      How Free(dom) is the Free movement that has to be accompanied by the "Dollar Passport"?

      America isnt Free at all. Not unless your a part of the moneyed class. And it is the moneyed class who write the rules in the USA (without question) and this moneyed class actively prevents mexican immigration.

      Contrast the European Union version of a "Free Market". When Capital moves freely, so should people. Fortunately, Europe is not (yet) dominated by the Capital Classes. Europeans still have a healthy understanding that strife is based in social conflict. Memory of fascism (state-capitalist Germany for example) and monarchy (little more than rule by the rich (sound familiar?)) keeps Europeans' shit-detectors much sharper than Americans.

      So, why are Mexicans dying trying to get to the USA? Because Mexico is poor. The USA is not. And Plutocratic classes dont care if some poor Mexican dies in the desert.

  4. Injected RFID tags... by Manip · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When your employer comes to you about injecting an RFID tag under your skin remember this article. It is one thing to have an ID card with a tag on it, something that can be binned and replaced in time, but what about that chip under your skin? Are they going to take it out of you or will you end up with 10 all up your arm?

    1. Re:Injected RFID tags... by scsirob · · Score: 4, Funny

      So let me get this right... If the injected RFID tag gets compromised, does that mean I'll be charged an extra bag of chips each time I pass the checkout at Gateways??

      --
      To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
    2. Re:Injected RFID tags... by ajs318 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      When your employer comes to you about injecting an RFID tag under your skin
      That would be considered non-elective surgery, which is a form of assault {at least common assault, and maybe ABH or even GBH if an allergic reaction or septicaemia develops} -- and therefore illegal. Note also that you cannot consent to assault, and just because you said it was OK the perpetrator can still be prosecuted.
      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    3. Re: Injected RFID tags... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      > When your employer comes to you about injecting an RFID tag under your skin remember this article. It is one thing to have an ID card with a tag on it, something that can be binned and replaced in time, but what about that chip under your skin? Are they going to take it out of you or will you end up with 10 all up your arm?

      No, it means my boss will end up with ten up his 455.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:Injected RFID tags... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      They'll just use the Dick Cheney method of implanting pellets I guess.

    5. Re:Injected RFID tags... by metricmusic · · Score: 1

      It has already been put into place in at least one company: http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/12/003 1213

      Will it become the norm?

      --
      http://www.livejournal.com/users/metricmusic
    6. Re:Injected RFID tags... by plumby · · Score: 4, Informative
      That would be considered non-elective surgery, which is a form of assault {at least common assault, and maybe ABH or even GBH if an allergic reaction or septicaemia develops} -- and therefore illegal. Note also that you cannot consent to assault, and just because you said it was OK the perpetrator can still be prosecuted.

      Whether you can or can't consent to assault is irrelevant, as by agreeing to have the surgery, it would become elective and there would be no assault to consent to.

    7. Re:Injected RFID tags... by jk55092 · · Score: 1

      Note also that you cannot consent to assault You're apparently somewhere in the United Kingdom. I'm not licensed to practice law there, but as an American lawyer, I assure you that in the U.S. you'd be entirely wrong. And, I have very deep suspicions that you're simply flat out wrong. Under the Common Law, this would be a battery, not an assault. And you certainly CAN consent. Otherwise every time someone was hit in a football or rugby or whatevertheheckitisyoupeopleplayoverthere then there would be a potential prosecution. It's not assault or battery for your employer to say 'have this implanted or you don't have a job'. Those are just words -- sticks and stones may break your bones, but words can never harm you. This is no more invasive than employers or schools requiring vaccinations (which can, on occasion, kill someone) which the courts have routinely stated is acceptable. Courts have similarly stated that employers can require people to submit to drug screening. There may be a legal restriction on forcing employees to have a tag implanted, but it would be under a 'right to privacy' basis -- NOT assault or battery.

    8. Re:Injected RFID tags... by kansas1051 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Note also that you cannot consent to assault, and just because you said it was OK the perpetrator can still be prosecuted.

      Your high school business law teacher who told you that didn't know what he was talking about. You can consent to a battery (unlawful touching) or an assault (reasonable apprehension of a battery). How do you think boxing, hockey, or football work? Each participant consents to being battered and assaulted (within the rules of the game) by other participants.

    9. Re:Injected RFID tags... by Highrollr · · Score: 1

      That would be considered non-elective surgery, which is a form of assault {at least common assault, and maybe ABH or even GBH if an allergic reaction or septicaemia develops} -- and therefore illegal. Note also that you cannot consent to assault, and just because you said it was OK the perpetrator can still be prosecuted.

      In other news, Mike Tyson's opponent goes to jail.

      Seriously though, as neatly as this theory fits in with the Official Slashdot Interpretation of the story, it just ain't so. There's no way we'd have boxing, martial arts competition, or even pro wrestling if "you cannot consent to assault." You could fight this implanted RFID stuff, of course, but lack of consent isn't the argument you're going to want to take to court.

      IANAL, BTW.

    10. Re:Injected RFID tags... by user24 · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but AFAIK under UK law:
      Assault is simply to cause fear (shouting "i'm gonna kill you")
      Battery is to cause fear, coupled with physical contact (the above, plus tapping on the shoulder)
      ABH is assault plus a more serious injury, EG: punching several times
      GBH is ABH but with bloodshed.

      so involuntary RFID injection would count as GBH, which is only 2 offences down from murder (murder=killing with intent to kill, manslaughter=killing with intent to cause GBH)

      PS: Do i get an award for most TLA or other acronyms used in one post?

    11. Re:Injected RFID tags... by user24 · · Score: 1

      Under UK law, you cannot consent to injury, with the exception being in sporting circumstances. IANAL (but my gf did get 100% in an A level law exam once)

    12. Re:Injected RFID tags... by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Injecting something under the skin sounds as though it might amount to Grievous Bodily Harm, under the Offences Against the Person Act 1861. See www.police-law.co.uk and this Wikipedia entry. It's a defence to this charge that you were making a lawful move in a recognised sport {of course, showing off or blatant cheating are not lawful moves; if in doubt, call the referee as a witness}. Also look up R. v. Brown 1993 {details of case are Not Safe for Work}.

      There is also the strong possibility that such an act would violate the Human Right Act 1998, which gives the European Convention on Human Rights the status of law in the UK.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    13. Re:Injected RFID tags... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's assault when you are threatened with financial harm (being fired) if you don't agree. Coercion is supposed to nullify agreements before the law. However, we know for whom the law works.

    14. Re:Injected RFID tags... by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      I'm not sure about this. I mean, schools can still administer corporal punishment is permission is given by the parents.

      That is sanctioned physical assault...and it perfectly legal.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    15. Re:Injected RFID tags... by Jace+of+Fuse! · · Score: 1

      Yes, but not consenting could lead to unemployment and that could be viewed as agreement to unfavorable conditions under duress.

      --

      "Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

      Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
  5. RFID tag reader already in many Nokia phones by Hyperkinetic · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My 6620 is capable of responding to 13.56 MHz readers and may be capable of reading tags as well. Nokia has been working with Mastercard and others to bring payment and reward systems to mobile phone users. There is little information in Google, but the API is available. Check your Nokia 'wallet' function for RFID functionality.

    1. Re:RFID tag reader already in many Nokia phones by ianalis · · Score: 5, Informative

      That is the reason why I was shocked when I read the title. I know that there are Nokia phones that can read RFID and Nokia is pushing for its widespread use. Here's a useful link regarding RFID in Nokia phones: http://europe.nokia.com/nokia/0,,55737,00.html

    2. Re:RFID tag reader already in many Nokia phones by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      One of those cheap little multiband radios that tunes 13.56 MHz would be handy for detecting tag readers at a distance then.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  6. Not all tags. by queazocotal · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Active tags - ones with their own battery, are going to be fundamentally immune to this.

    Also, in addition to tags that have a simple 'password', that they must have before they do anything - that may be trivially vulnerable to power analysis, there are tags that do more complex things - such as for example, send the reader a random token, which it then has to encrypt with a key known to both of them.

    This can be immune to power analysis - in the simplest case, as it does not check each bit as recieved, but only at the end of a computation.

    And, the fact that getting the first bit correct of a hash with a given key does not help you to guess the rest.

    1. Re:Not all tags. by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 1
      I think this is a fascinating from an engineering trade off point of view. When you design a micropower circuit, you hoard every little bit of power and only expend it when necessary. I'm sure that was the mindset of these developers. And that's exactly the approach that will make the device vulnerable to power analysis.

      I'm sure they could have designed it to be, at least, much more insensitive to power analysis. I bet it just didn't occur to them to do so.

      --
      It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
  7. Ban Cellphones! by splutty · · Score: 3, Funny

    Extrapolating the common reaction to this sort of 'dangers to national security', I'll be looking for a news article about how cellphones should be banned..

    (Cynical, yes. Too close to the truth? Unfortunately)

    Splut.

    --
    Coz eternity my friend, is a long *ing time.
    1. Re:Ban Cellphones! by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      that style of writing and that name.. Thijs?

  8. RFID != Smart Card by CortoMaltese · · Score: 2, Informative
    It's a good thing our government wants to embed these things in our passports

    I knew this was coming the second I saw the headline.

    Biometric passports and most other applications that need secure tokens utilize smart cards.

    RFID tags are not the same as smart cards. The difference is huge. Please do your homework.

    So wait, besides inventory tracking, why do we use RFID at all?

    Besides inventory tracking, we usually don't. It is just confusion and FUD.

    1. Re:RFID != Smart Card by agent+dero · · Score: 2

      Smart cards are a reasonable alternative, but I've played with smart card readers as well, most people just assume "it's electronic, it must be secure"

      Which means, a good amount of companies really don't. Of course the same applies for magstrips, etc.

      The problem is not just RFID centric, that wasn't the point I was making. It is the trade off of security for convienence.

      --
      Error 407 - No creative sig found
    2. Re:RFID != Smart Card by armb · · Score: 2, Informative

      > Biometric passports and most other applications that need secure tokens utilize smart cards.

      Except for the ones which really are planed to use RFIDs.

      Here's some homework for you:
      http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/08/rfid _passport_s_1.html
      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/01/30/burnham_rf id_evasions/
      http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/22.98.html#subj7.1
      http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/23.87.html#subj5.1

      --
      rant
    3. Re:RFID != Smart Card by peragrin · · Score: 2, Informative

      I hate to break this to you, but any card that has a contactless interface(ie hold the card near the reader) is an RFID setup. it should be RFRC Radio frequency responder chip. which the USA and the UK want to use in passports. hence why they are coming with faraday cage style bags.

      A smart card still needs to be swiped. I have one in my american express card. My roommates new debit card has an RFRC in it as well. As he can simple place his card on a special sign and have it read it.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    4. Re:RFID != Smart Card by CortoMaltese · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I've done my homework. Most folks (esp. in the US) seem to use the terms "RFID" and "contactless smart card" interchangeably, while they are totally different beasts. Scheier does that just as well, which doesn't help things. Maybe he even does it deliberately, to gain more publicity. You see, there are tons of news about RFID being broken, but when was the last time you saw that about a smart card?

      In fact, the article by The Register you refer to deals with this issue. People are worried because "The contactless chips that will be used in ID cards and passports are amazingly like RFID tags." They both work without contacts, from a distance. But that doesn't make them the same.

      I repeat again, the biometric passports and UK identity cards, etc. etc. won't be using RFID tags. They will be using contactless smart cards, which communicate according to ISO/IEC 14443.

      So I guess this boils down to terminology, really. The problem is that whenever people see "RFID broken" in the news, they freak, even though it means "RFID tags broken". Maybe you could argue that smart cards use RFID technology for contactless communication, but I think this just fuels the confusion, because then people generalize smart cards to be RFID tags, which is not the case.

    5. Re:RFID != Smart Card by CortoMaltese · · Score: 1
      Please see my other comment about this.

      any card that has a contactless interface(ie hold the card near the reader) is an RFID setup

      A smart card still needs to be swiped.

      A smart card does not have to have contacts. It does not have to be swiped. It can be contactless, and more and more of them are these days. In fact, a single smart card chip can have both methods of communication.

      Again, you may argue that it's RFID if it's contactless, but this is confusing as RFID generally refers to RFID tags, which are not smart cards. A contactless interface does not turn smart cards into a RFID (tags).

    6. Re:RFID != Smart Card by blirp · · Score: 1
      RFID tags are not the same as smart cards. The difference is huge. Please do your homework.


      The funny thing is that the link you give for RFID tags contains this:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID#Passports


      It's always fun to do homework, right?

      M.

    7. Re:RFID != Smart Card by CortoMaltese · · Score: 5, Insightful
      It is always fun to do homework with Wikipedia... Biometric passports don't use RFID tags. Period.

      My reference? I work on smart cards, including biometric passports. In this field, no one in their right mind would use RFID tags for passports, or anything requiring security. Ever.

      It is sad that the web is full of stuff about RFID security, or the lack of it, and people then make the assumption that anything contactless is RFID, and thus insecure. It it really hard to try to set the facts straight, when the correctness of your facts can be questioned with a bunch of links to FUD. (And damn, even the links you provide yourself prove to contain incorrect or misleading information! Argh.)

      I guess I should just give up. It'll give me a warm and fuzzy feeling to know I'm right, after all.

    8. Re:RFID != Smart Card by armb · · Score: 1

      > You see, there are tons of news about RFID being broken, but when was the last time you saw that about a smart card?

      Using your terminology where these things everyone else is calling RFIDs but you want to call contactless smart cards?

      http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,69453-1.htm l?tw=wn_story_page_next1
      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/01/30/dutch_biom etric_passport_crack/
      http://hasbrouck.org/blog/archives/000434.html
      http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/03/dutch-rfid-e-pa ssport-cracked-us-next/

      --
      rant
    9. Re:RFID != Smart Card by armb · · Score: 1

      http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~gh275/ is worth a look too.
      Describes attacks on contactless smartcards, a subset of RFID devices.

      --
      rant
    10. Re:RFID != Smart Card by peragrin · · Score: 1

      How can a smart card which contains ID information that transmits via RF not be an RFID tag? It may be enhanced above a normal tag, it may be encrypted, but the underlining tech is still the same.

      Hence why I said it should be called RFRC basically an RFID chip is a radio frequency tag that transmits an ID number when activated. a smart card transmits more information. The difference between a barcode model number and a full page of "product information".

      It relys on the same basic technology and thus is just as easy to access the data stored. Now that data may be encrypted, but encryption never lasts long. Techincally what's the difference between a smart card and an RFID chip? a little extra memory, and a method for encrypting data? Big deal. give it timeand smart cards will be just as easy to get information out of. UK Identity cards aren't hard to access, you have a standard from which to work from.

      How can a smart card which contains ID information not be

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    11. Re:RFID != Smart Card by statusbar · · Score: 1

      Yes, but are you saying that contact-less smart cards are NOT vulnerable to attacks where the smart card power draw is measured as the article discusses?

      --jeffk++

      --
      ipv6 is my vpn
    12. Re:RFID != Smart Card by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      It should be RFRC: Radio Frequency Responder Chip.

      "Are Fruck"? "Arf Rick"? "Arfer See"?

      Nah, that will never catch on.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    13. Re:RFID != Smart Card by throwaway18 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I work on smart cards, including biometric passports. In this field, no one in their right mind would use RFID tags for passports, or anything requiring security. Ever.

      The problem here seems to be terminology (and clueless moderators).

      You are incorrectly assuming that "RFID" means a simple tag with no crypto.

      RFID is a generic term for any device that uses RF and identifys it's presence or absense. A resonant circuit without a chip that is used
      to tag library books is an RFID. A contactless smartcard that uses cryptography to make it harder to clone is an RFID.

      people then make the assumption that anything contactless is RFID
      That is a correct assumption.

      and thus insecure.
      This is an incorrect assumption, however as Shamir has shown it is early days for RFID security.

    14. Re:RFID != Smart Card by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank You!!!

      Nothing annoys me more than self-proclaimed experts who can't get past their own semantics. Your clarification of the term "RFID" is concise, accurate and +5 Informative.

      I will be returning shortly with some mod points for you (and perhaps a negative one for the parent).

      Again, thank you.

  9. RSA and Patents by putko · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Here's something on RSA and their patent: http://www.cyberlaw.com/rsa.html

    That's the work this guy is famous for.

    --
    http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_s tone_your_children/dt21_18a.html
  10. Um, he doesn't work for RSA by Nagasta+Bagamba · · Score: 1

    Adi Shamir shares the patent with Rivest and Adelman. He was never an employee of RSA data security. He makes a living as a professor of computer science in Israel.

    1. Re:Um, he doesn't work for RSA by sxpert · · Score: 1

      (...) living as a professor of computer science in Israel.

      you surely mean, an active member of the mossad :D

  11. That is why.... by freedom_india · · Score: 0, Troll
    So, that is why Boston Logan International does not allow landing passengers to use their cellphones at all.

    I was wondering what was happening.

    Hmmm....

    --
    "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
  12. Overhyped bullshit, scam to attract investors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Replace a $$$$ digital oscilloscope with a cellphone??? Bullshit. Typical scam research claim trying to extract money from investors. Where is he from again? Ah, OK, now we all know...

    1. Re:Overhyped bullshit, scam to attract investors by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      Replace a $$$$ digital oscilloscope with a cellphone??? Bullshit.

      He's not talking about replacing a $$$$ digital osciloscope with a cellphone. He's talking about doing something with a cellphone that can also be done by a $$$$ digital osciloscope. Big difference. (You can do a LOT of stuff with the scope.)

      Typical scam research claim trying to extract money from investors. Where is he from again? Ah, OK, now we all know...

      This is Adi Shamir we're talking about. He can get all the investors he wants just by dropping his name and saying he found something lucrative to do.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  13. i think the rfid juggernaut can't be stopped by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    but it's primary uses: internal inventory tracking/ easy checkout, will be all it will be really good for

    all of the other far out uses people have imagined rfid tech will be useful for once you get past check out and out of the store- all the negative and all the positive (conspiracy theory tracking, smart fridges that know when you need more milk, etc.), won't really come to pass. not because people will suddenly care about their privacy, but because of exactly this: no one will be able to design a system that can't be gamed for some sort of illicit activity. rfid use outside of the store will be undependable simply because if rfid tags are being depended upon for any sort of proof of id in the "wild", then there is immediate and easily realized incentive to game the system

    in other words, rfid tags will only be useful in controlled environments. once out of the store, any grand schemes, good or bad, imagined with rfid tags in mind will be ruined by spoofing, masking, obfuscation, forgery, mass duplication, etc.

    this cell phone meddling is but a very preliminary indication of the kind of homegrown creative hacks and schemes people will be devising for fun and profit in the near future using rfid technology

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:i think the rfid juggernaut can't be stopped by bloodstar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But then the question comes to mind.
      How long will it take for the Corporations to manage a media campaign to smear anyone who would spoof or obfuscate or reproduce the RFID tags and information collected? Then spend the money it takes to make any such tampering with RFID tags to be a Felony with punishment on par with Rape and Murder.

      And before anyone thinks I think corporations are 'teh evil', It's the corporation being able to legally (the ethics of it is another matter) 'purchase' legislation to enforce their business model with the power of the governments guns creating the problems.

      --
      "The bass, the rock, the mic, the treble. I like my coffee black, just like my metal" - Mindless Self Indulgence
    2. Re:i think the rfid juggernaut can't be stopped by superflyguy · · Score: 1

      No, they can't legally purchase legislation... Or maybe it's lawmakers can't legally sell legislation...

      Either way, corruption IS illegal. So even if legislation can be bought, it can't be done legally.

    3. Re:i think the rfid juggernaut can't be stopped by Sique · · Score: 1

      Legislation doesn't get bought, it gets extorted. :)

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    4. Re:i think the rfid juggernaut can't be stopped by zopf · · Score: 1

      Just like that damned VCR.

      --
      Did you see the pool? They flipped the bitch!
  14. Time for... by Jon+Abbott · · Score: 4, Funny

    Time for a price rollback at Walmart!

    1. Re: Time for... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      > Time for a price rollback at Walmart!

      AKA "dialing for dollars".

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  15. peizo lighter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would guess that a piezo oven lighter could be modified to pump out enough energy to kill an RFID tag too.

  16. A PCB for cloning RFID tags by PGillingwater · · Score: 3, Interesting

    http://cq.cx/proxmarkii.pl provides a nice article on how one Canadian guy designed a small hardware solution for cloning RFID tags. It should be very clear that RFID is NOT secure -- it's actually more likely to be insecure, in spite of the vendors who are offering tin-foil hats for their RFID cards.

    --
    Paul Gillingwater
    MBA, CISSP, CISM
  17. Tin Foil Hats? Thats so 20th century by masterpenguin · · Score: 1
    in spite of the vendors who are offering tin-foil hats for their RFID cards.


    Tin Foil Hats?

    Thats 20th century technology, get with the times, these days we're microwaving everything to ensure total rfid tag destruction. "microwave everything" thats the wave of the 21st century.
  18. this thread by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At the last DefCon...people were able to remotely read RFID tags from a distance of approximatly 49 feet...I knew this was a bad thing to implement so soon.

    1. Re:this thread by ajs318 · · Score: 2, Informative

      As I understand it, there is a serious issue with selectivity when reading RFID tags, due to the fact that they all have to use the same frequency. Passive RFID tags work by absorbing less or more energy from a radio transmitter to send zeros and ones. Real-life reading ranges are of the order of a few centimetres. Longer ranges are theoretically possible but create difficulties in practice. The "real" reader {i.e. the one which is actually supposed to be reading the tag} can't be too sensitive, lest its signal be picked up by other RFID tags {this system is meant for use in a store full of goods with RFID tags .....} and they interfere with the signal. The "parasite" reader {i.e. the one which is picking up overspill from the "real" reading process} can be much further away, but needs to be kept stationary because it is responding to really minute changes in signal strength. The "real" reader doesn't care about the RF power at all, since it can measure how much is being absorbed indirectly by measuring how much current is being drawn by the transmitter circuit {when the tag is absorbing more power, the oscillator draws more current}. The "parasite" reader will still be affected by any other "real" readers operating nearby.

      The limitations of passive tags are decreed by universal laws and won't be overcome by invention. Ironically, RFID will become less of a threat the more widely it is deployed.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  19. It probably is already illegal... by MyNameIsFred · · Score: 1

    There is no need to "purchase legislation." Corporations only are going to care whether you spoof, obfuscate or reproduce RFIDs, if you use them for illegal activities. That is, if you use these techniques to scam the checkout system to steal merchandise. To spoof the system so it thinks you're buying a CD rather than a 50 inch plasma TV. They'll care, if you're a supplier using such techniques to scam the inventory system. Etc. Etc. All these activities are already illegal. On the other hand, they may try to get legislation to restrict access to common technologies used to perform these techniques. But in my mind that is little different from current laws saying you can't possess burglary tools (i.e., a crowbar, hammer, or rock).

    1. Re:It probably is already illegal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      There is no need to "purchase legislation." Corporations only are going to care whether you spoof, obfuscate or reproduce RFIDs, if you use them for illegal activities.

      But corporations do their best to change what is legal or illegal for their own gain. See the RIAA as the classic example where they are buying legislation to make "fair use" of music illegal (or, if not fair use itself, then the tools required to reproduce music). While I can't immediately see a legal use for gaming RFIDs, I'm sure there is one. Perhaps reprogramming RFID-implanted merchandise to use to keep track of one's own belongings? (Is that possible? The article doesn't make clear exactly what the implications of being able to "crack the password of an RFID chip are, but I'm guessing that this is a first step towards that goal).

      However, in fear of losing money to thieves, corporations -rather than strengthening the technology- will use the law to enforce their bottom line.

      (Actually, I could see one industry that might immediately get upset about end-users reprogramming RFIDs on their own: the RFID industry, which doubtlessly rakes in a lot of cash selling custom reprogramming software/hardware. "What, an end-user can reprogram an RFID chip with a $40 phone? Sue and litigate!")

  20. RFID cloning and power consumption attacks by throwaway18 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That cloning device only works on cheap RFID's that don't do cryptographic authentication. This is not the first time this has been done.
    http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~gh275/relay.pdf

    The method Shamir talked about is a little more interesting because the cards are leaking information wbout what they are doing internally. It is possible that a more detailed examination of the power consumption may reveal other detail of what the card is doing as well as when it things it has receive a bad bit.

    Power analysis has been a known attack on smartcards for a long time. A few cards were vulnerable to an attacker looking for increase current draw just after a PIN/password attempt when the card tried to increment a count of the number of failures, cut the power when it tries to write to the fail count and you could attempt a brute force attack. I believe the most obvious way around the problem, to decrement the counter before checking the PIN and increment it after if the check passed, is patented.

    It would be interesting to see if any RFID cards have that flaw.

  21. RFID is not meant for security by Lord+Satri · · Score: 4, Informative

    I like what one of our users said:
    "To summarize:
    RFID for inventory tracking ==> Good idea
    RFID for security ==> Stupid idea
    "

    Here below I copy parts a previous comment on another story (which wasn't moderated and thus, probably not read a lot):
    Anyone interested in RFID could also start with the excellent wikipedia.org entry.

    Of interest, Slashdot already discussed RFID production increases before. Yes, RFID can be scary, especially in a bank or in passports. Imagine, even Sun cares for RFID. MobileMag have a small article about a 100% organic matter RFID chip developed in Korea, costing only 0.5 cents.

    And if RFID and geospatial tech seriously interest you, see my sig ;-)

  22. Is this news? by rettridg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Again this topic reviews the insecurities of wireless technology. We don't need a famous mathematician to tell us this. I have said it before, if data is so critically classified, don't transmit it across public air space.

    There isn't any problem with this unless the tag claims to be secure. Also, as the report says, if the tags are going to be made cheaply available, they can't necessarily promise security. No doubt the communication could include the latest security technologies, but there would be an associated cost.

    A big deal made from nothing, in my opinion.

  23. What does the DMCA says about this ? by Khalid · · Score: 1

    Now it will be intersting to watch what does the DMCA have to say about this if the RFID vendor files a law suit ?

    1. Re:What does the DMCA says about this ? by randyflood · · Score: 1


      The DMCA specifically allows circumvention of security devices for the purpose of cryptogtaphy research.

      Also, it is a stretch to imply that the purpose of any security mechanism in RFID is designed for the purpose of protecting someone's copyright. Hence, I think it would be hard to prosecute someone under the DMCA...

      --
      Randy.Flood@RHCE2B.COM
  24. Because we're inventory by doublem · · Score: 1

    Just saying...

    If you have any doubt look at hos the soldiers in Iraq are being treated. They aren't getting much body armor, so some soldiers are going into debt to buy theory won body armor. The most popular brand, Dragon Skin, is BETER than what the army provides.

    However, the military doesn't like their soldiers taking the initiative like that, so if you're killed in combat while wearing body armor that wasn't issued by the military, your family doesn't get your death benefits. Your wife and children don't get a red cent for your life.

    There was a a case a few weeks ago where a guy was paralyzed from the waist down, and the military withheld his pay until he paid back a few grand in combat pay that they'd overpaid him because of a clerical error. You try to come up with $4k when you have two kids, no job and you just lost the use of EVERYTHING below mid waist. Unless your wife is a banker or heiress, you're screwed.

    Then there's the guy who had to pay $600 for body armor that was destroyed when his arm was shredded by an enemy land mine. Seems no one wanted to own up to losing the paperwork on the body armor that was pulled from his body as medics were trying to keep him from bleeding to death.

    As far as the government is concerned, the soldiers are meat, one more commodity to ship to the war zone so the military contractors can line their pockets.

    --
    "Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
    1. Re:Because we're inventory by makomk · · Score: 1

      Hmm... sounds interesting (if off-topic). Got a source for these claims?

    2. Re:Because we're inventory by doublem · · Score: 1

      The most popular brand, Dragon Skin, is BETER than what the army provides. ... if you're killed in combat while wearing body armor that wasn't issued by the military, your family doesn't get your death benefits.

      Army Orders Soldiers to Shed Dragon Skin or Lose SGLI Death Benefits

      There was a a case a few weeks ago where a guy was paralyzed from the waist down, and the military withheld his pay until he paid back a few grand in combat pay

      Wounded Soldiers Told They Owe Money to Army Seems this is happening so much Nightline is doing an investigation. One telling quote: "No Pay for Four Months"

      Then there's the guy who had to pay $600 for body armor that was destroyed when his arm was shredded by an enemy land mine.

      My Mistake. It was $700

      field medic tied a tourniquet around Rebrook's right arm to stanch the bleeding from shrapnel wounds. Soldiers yanked off his blood-soaked body armor. He never saw it again. But last week, Rebrook was forced to pay $700 for that body armor, blown up by a roadside bomb more than a year ago.

      --
      "Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
  25. As a mathematician ... by Bazzalisk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I heartily disagree. If someone creates an algorithm, and patents it, do I then have to get their permission before using it to prove something in a paper? You want to give people a 2 year patent on something software related (an implementation, not an algorithm) then I can see that - but for a mathematical construct that's just silly. It would be like patenting not the steam-engine, but the concept that steam expands when heated.

    --
    James P. Barrett
    1. Re:As a mathematician ... by p2sam · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm talking about algorithms that performs non-trival useful tasks. I'm NOT talking about the theorems/lemmas/etc.

      Quicksort ought to be patentable, sorting numbers should not.
      Algorithms for solving Linear Programs ought to be patentable, duals should not.
      RSA ought to be patentable, public key crypto should not.

      In order for something to be patentable, it has perform a useful task.

      To address your point about implementation vs algorithm, in software and mathematics, the implementation is often trivial (hence not deserving of a patent). The real innovation happens in the algorithm.

      Perhaps patents is a thing of the past, but I still wish to reward innovation to inventors of complex non-trivial algorithms which advance the state of the art. And patents are the closest thing we have.

    2. Re:As a mathematician ... by nietsch · · Score: 1

      We already have such a monopoly on implementation of ideas: it is called copyright. Thanks to disney-dollars and the tendency of the us to use trade-agreements to bypass local gouvernment it usually is valid for much too long already.

      I will welcome the time when the US's power has shrunken so much that those copyright and patent agreements will be broken unilaterally.

      --
      This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
    3. Re:As a mathematician ... by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Patents are not primarily a mechanism for rewarding innovation. The purpose of patents is to encourage innovation subject to the understanding that whatever is invented will eventually be released to the Public Domain. But the whole of mathematics is already in the Public Domain -- including the bits that have not yet been written down formally. Even before Napier published the first ever book of log tables, the relationship (a ** b) * (a ** c) == a ** (b + c) still held.

      The idea of patenting an algorithm is simply absurd -- and the Principle of Equivalence makes a complete mockery of any attempt to try to do it.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    4. Re:As a mathematician ... by Fahrenheit+450 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even before Napier published the first ever book of log tables, the relationship (a ** b) * (a ** c) == a ** (b + c) still held.

      And astonishingly enough, even before [insert patented physical device here] was invented, the physics that allowed it to work the way it does still held. But you think that combining Widget A and Widget B to produce Result C is somehow more patentable than combining Number A and Number B to produce Result D?

      Why? Because you can touch them?

      --
      -30-
    5. Re:As a mathematician ... by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      The point is that mathematics is about as abstract as anything ever gets. Almost any concept in maths applies across a far broader spectrum than any patent should ever cover: a patent is meant to cover a specific means to an end, not an end in its own right. A mathematical algorithm is either an end in its own right {if you're a mathematician} or a means without an end to call its own {if you think maths is pointless}.

      Patenting mathematical algorithms would be like patenting entire scientific phenomena {such as the transfer of heat from a warm body to a cooler one} as opposed to inventions that exploit those phenomena {such as a cooking stove}. Narrow patents encourage innovation in the form of competition: other people can try to find alternative ways of achieving the same effect, sometimes they succeed and sometimes the alternative method turns out to be better than the original. Broad patents stifle innovation, by discouraging competition in a whole field at a time: nobody can compete without running afoul of a patent. {There's also an argument to be made that no person or entity should own patents on more than one thing that are essentially equivalent; the granting of the second should be on the condition that the first be surrendered immediately to the Public Domain.}

      If you really want to patent stupid things, why don't you start getting your sleazeball ambulance-chasing lawyers to arrange patenting personal injuries; so the next time someone else gets hurt the same way you did, you can claim royalties from them?

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    6. Re:As a mathematician ... by Fahrenheit+450 · · Score: 1

      Patenting mathematical algorithms would be like patenting entire scientific phenomena {such as the transfer of heat from a warm body to a cooler one} as opposed to inventions that exploit those phenomena {such as a cooking stove}.

      And I'm guessing that the RSA patent only covered the application of Fermat's little theorem (not quite, but close enough) to cryptographic uses (encryption and signing). If you could use it for, I don't know... making perfect flapjacks, you'd have been perfectly free to do so. The deal is that it's just not that useful outside of cryptography. It's no different than getting a patent on using a bimetal strip to build a thermostat. The properties of the bimetal strip aren't patented, just their use in that one arena. The math in RSA isn't patented, just its use in cryptographic applications.

      --
      -30-
    7. Re:As a mathematician ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what's the test one can use in order to say "You should be able to patent that"? I don't believe there is a reasonable or reliable one.

      You could try to say that 'Quicksort' is a particular element of a class of algorithms ('sorts'), but then we can divide up all the many *types* of quicksorts themselves. And many algorithms use other algorithms.

      As Jefferson also said, there is almost NOTHING less amenable to the notion of property rights than an idea.

    8. Re:As a mathematician ... by p2sam · · Score: 1

      Your attack is against patents in general, and I don't disagree with you. But what we are talking about here is software/mathematics (non-traditional touchable, seeable, engineering), and how patents apply to this field of study.

    9. Re:As a mathematician ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Quicksort ought to be patentable, sorting numbers should not.

      Quicksort is a very simple mathematical idea. It's a one-liner.

      In Haskell:

      quicksort [] = []
      quicksort (x:xs) = quicksort [y | y <- xs, y < x] ++ x ++ quicksort [y | y <- xs, y >= x]

      > RSA ought to be patentable, public key crypto should not.

      What is there to patent about RSA? That x^phi(n) mod n = 1? That phi(x) = x-1 for prime x? That phi(x*y) = phi(x)*phi(y)? That egcd((a*b),n) gives you (a*b)^-1 mod n? That it's hard to factor large integers? All of these facts were well known for, in some cases, thousands of years. I don't think that putting them together qualifies someone for a worldwide monopoly on their use. Before the RSA patent, anyone could use those facts for whatever they wanted, but after the RSA patent there was a subset of mathematical identities that were illegal to express unless one bought a license. Somehow, I doubt that furthered the sciences OR the arts.

      And why shouldn't public key crypto be patentable while RSA should? Where do you draw the line on genericity? Obviously some people draw different lines. Personally, I draw the line at all mathematics. Once you have a system of axioms, all the theorems are pre-determined. There's no invention, only discovery and enumeration. Finders fees may attract some people, but not the really smart ones. The really smart ones do it because they love math, and they won't be able to do it if the stupid ones are putting patents in their way.

      > To address your point about implementation vs algorithm, in software and mathematics, the
      > implementation is often trivial (hence not deserving of a patent). The real innovation happens
      > in the algorithm.

      You seem ignorant of the fact that mathematically, the algorithm IS the implementation IS the proof of a theorem. Quicksort is nothing less than the true theorem that if you recursively divide a list in half, putting the elements smaller than the middle in the lower half and the larger in the top half, the list will be sorted when you finish. The Haskell code above expresses this perfectly clearly. If an algorithm is correctly implemented (which many quicksort's from scratch are not..), it describes the exact same proof. It's not a rigorous proof until one provides some induction with invariants and pre and post conditions, but why should you be able to patent an incomplete proof when a complete proof would be unpatentable as pure mathematics?

      > Perhaps patents is a thing of the past, but I still wish to reward innovation to inventors of complex
      > non-trivial algorithms which advance the state of the art. And patents are the closest thing we have

      Newton, Gauss, Einstein, Turing, and many others are immortalized. Many of them grew famous in their lifetime. I doubt the Internet will reverse that trend, and in fact it is likely to get many smart mathematicians very good jobs. Academia also plays a major role in innovation. If you take apart your computer bit by bit from software down through hardware, you will find a majority of innovations that were first described in research papers published by universities. Many of the fundamental algorithms that you cherish are ones developed 20 to 50 years ago, upon mathematical concepts founded around 80 years ago. Things like what color your desktop windows are and how annoying clippy can be cannot properly be called innovation. Neither is one-click shopping (bar tabs, anyone?), checking your email without polling, or any other mundane process that has been patented by "doing it with a computer".

    10. Re:As a mathematician ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And astonishingly enough, even before [insert patented physical device here] was invented, the physics that allowed it to work the way it does still held. But you think that combining Widget A and Widget B to produce Result C is somehow more patentable than combining Number A and Number B to produce Result D?

      Have you looked at the patent database? It's full of obvious, trivial combinations of simpler elements. The first patent was awarded for gears on trains and teeth on tracks so trains could climb hills. What the fuck? That's innovative? I think the only novelty was that the gear teeth meshed nicely with the toothed track, but even that was a simple extension of any number of existing inventions. I honestly don't know what the patent office has been smoking for all these years. I think smart people would do much better to form unions than try to play the patent system with all the lawyers swimming the waters...

  26. Re:Bad thing by DesireCampbell · · Score: 1

    Having these rules in paper, and actually following through with them are completely different things. Remember, there are lots of governments that regularly break international law, even ones that those countries themselves created. For a (non-debate raising) US example: softwood lumber trade with Canada, both countries agreed years ago on tariff prices and terms, and because of a US complaint even changed the rules (in their favour) over a decade ago. Now they refuse to pay out the millions of dollars (that's USD mind you) that they've not paid.

    Now I don't want to scare anyone away from RFID technology - I think it's the bee's knees, myself - but I just want people to remember that big government is, almost without exception, bad government.

    --
    Whoo, signature!
    DesireCampbell.com
  27. I cannot understand just one thing... by Vitus+Wagner · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why he calls it "compromise"? RFID tag is just something like license plate on your car.
    You don't call your car security compromised just because everybody non-blind in victinity can read your license plate with naked eyes.

    You need have access to police database in order to get sensitive information of car owner using car license plate. Nobody but criminals tries to hide their car license plate from casual observer.

    Same for RFIDs - they just transmit some unique id, and one who wants to idenitfy person carrying RFID has to get access to right database (and indentity which database holds this info first).

    I'd rather say that your security is compromised, if you cannot read what is transmitted by RFID tag in your passport or under your skin, and some unknown person with RFID scanner can.

    So, in order to stop this hype about RFIDs compromising security, they have to cell RFID scanners for dollar on next corner, or make it standard feature of every cell phone (if components are really already in place) so everybody who is concerned about security can easily scan oneself and find out what kind of information is available from those tags.

    Only reason why those RFID makers don't do it - is because they want to make money on scanners as well as chips theirselves.

    1. Re:I cannot understand just one thing... by $ASANY · · Score: 2, Informative
      I was similarly baffled. I work with DoD to develop and implement RFID solutions for transportation and asset accountability, and I've never heard of anyone trying to encrypt the data on an RFID tag. The DOD-64 and DOD-96 passive RFID constructs aren't encrypted, and those are the two DoD-specific constructs used in logistics. It seems like he's talking out of his posterior -- sure it's easy to "crack" the data on an RFID tag, because what is encoded there is not encrypted at all. That's by intentional design.

      In the commercial workd, with Wal-Mart and Target the EPC constructs are also undencrypted. So when he talks about 'the most popular tag', I'm really wondering what he thinks that might be. Low-frequency livestock tags? 13.56 MHz access control badges? 900MHz passive Alien squiggle tags? Savi active tags? What the heck is this guy talking about, because none of these "popular" implementations encrypt the data on their tags?

      But let's say you managed to "crack" a tag. You got '2F0103047541A430000001F9' (yes, this is a valid construct with minimally munged data). Ok, how about someone tell me how that constitutes a breach of security.

    2. Re:I cannot understand just one thing... by Vitus+Wagner · · Score: 1

      I'd rather want to know that 2F0103047541A430000001F9 is my identifier in the passport database,
      some other simular number (oh, where is my hardware random number generator to make a sample) is my id in the local hospital database et cetera.

    3. Re:I cannot understand just one thing... by $ASANY · · Score: 1

      Actually it would not be. If you understood the construct, then you could derive what the key is. Don't confuse a tag encoding construct with a primary key value.

    4. Re:I cannot understand just one thing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Consider Mobil's "SpeedPass". If I can read the ID from your speedpass, that is the first step. Then it would be easy (I imagine) to create a compatible device that will present your ID when I pull up to the pump. This is a real compromise because I can then buy gas with your credit card. In this scenario, although I don't have your credit card number or anything else, I in essence did have enough access to the database where the ID has meaning.

    5. Re:I cannot understand just one thing... by Vitus+Wagner · · Score: 1

      For personal privacy it doesn't matter. There is standard procedure to match tag encoding construct with particular database. It might involve decoding tag or might require database to store encoded construct as secondary key, no difference for me if I'm not going to hack the database.

      I just have to know what this RFID is for, what kind of my personal data can be found using it and which officials are authorized to access these data.

    6. Re:I cannot understand just one thing... by Vitus+Wagner · · Score: 1

      Security by obscurity is no security. Consider gas station operator which have to read these cards to sell me oil. Even if standard gas station equipment doesn't allow it, there are service engineers which ought to have universal scanners.

      This case is what public key cryptography is for.

    7. Re:I cannot understand just one thing... by $ASANY · · Score: 1
      No, the tag construct that I know do not identify a particular database. I can confirm that the following constructs do not contain a database identifier:

      EPCglobal
      DOD-64 and DOD-96
      GID-96
      SGTIN-64 and SGTIN-96
      SSCC-64 and SSCC-96
      SGLN-64 and SGLN-96
      GRAI-64 and GRAI-96
      GIAI-64 and GIAI-96

      I challenge you to identify a tag encoding construct that does have a field that identifies a database.

    8. Re:I cannot understand just one thing... by Nagasta+Bagamba · · Score: 1

      Durr, you didn't actually listen to the actual talk, now did you?

    9. Re:I cannot understand just one thing... by throwaway18 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I was similarly baffled. I work with DoD to develop and implement RFID solutions for transportation and asset accountability, and I've never heard of anyone trying to encrypt the data on an RFID tag.

      Sadly I am not surprised by someone who works on a government IT project not knowing what he is talking about. The card systems currently on the market for opening doors generally use challenge-response authentication.

      I'm told that the plan is for the UK RFID passports to use crypto. (and yes a contactless smartcard is an RFID.)

    10. Re:I cannot understand just one thing... by Gnavpot · · Score: 1

      But let's say you managed to "crack" a tag. You got '2F0103047541A430000001F9' (yes, this is a valid construct with minimally munged data). Ok, how about someone tell me how that constitutes a breach of security.

      Easy. If your security relies on that the response from the RFID tags is impossible to clone, you will be in deep shit if anyone can copy that response for future use.

      Think "RFID based access control systems".

    11. Re:I cannot understand just one thing... by asuffield · · Score: 2, Interesting

      RFID tag is just something like license plate on your car.

      Do you walk around wearing a large plate describing, in lettering visible from a considerable distance, all the items you are carrying about your person?

      This technology could revolutionise the pickpocket industry. They don't need a complete database of all known tags. They just need to lurk down the street from the Apple store and know the code for "ipod" which is used at that particular store. Other valuable items (on the black market) that may include RFID tags are: passports, ID cards, most electronic products still in their original boxes, pharmaceuticals...

      And that's just one of the many possible uses for them. I'm sure people will find more and more creative ways to take advantage of the newly available information. Imagine if you could profile the current posessions of a customer to identify the ones likely to make a purchase, and target your salespeople to them, or even just prohibit the rest from entering.

      The possibilities for bold new patents are almost unlimited.

    12. Re:I cannot understand just one thing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      But let's say you managed to "crack" a tag. You got '2F0103047541A430000001F9' (yes, this is a valid construct with minimally munged data). Ok, how about someone tell me how that constitutes a breach of security.
      Because there are actually people on this plant stupid enough to use RFID tags for access control. For example, most condos and appartment buildings provide you with a key-fob that has an RFID tag in it. This is what lets you in the main door or activates the elevator. It's like garage door opener security at it's lowest nadir.
    13. Re:I cannot understand just one thing... by ohsoot · · Score: 1

      My friend just bought a new Lexus GS300. It has an RFID key. This means he keeps the key in his pocket, walks up to the door, pushes a button on the door to unlock it. He then sits in the car and turns the starter with the key still in his pocket. I imagine you could clone the key if you knew it was broadcasting '2F0103047541A430000001F9'.

  28. Credit cards ... butt scanning by CodeMoney · · Score: 1

    I wondered about this when those 'blink' cards came out. Imagine scanning for credit card numbers just by standing by a door as people walk in.

  29. Define "Crack" by Philodoxx · · Score: 3, Interesting

    RFID tag encodings adhere to standards (EPC and ISO); perhaps I'm missing something but what exact is there to crack when all the information is freely available on the internet?

    --
    Oh, a lesson in history from Mr. I'm my own grandpa.
  30. RF != RFID != Smart Card by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are partially correct. If a card or other device is contactless, then typically a radio frequency (RF) transport is involved. However the complexity and protection level of the transfer can vary. So not everything contactless can be classed as an RFID, at least not for the WalMart definition of RFID.

    Cheap inventory control RFID tags will have no security to lower the cost.

    Something like a Hughes HID iClass card uses encrytped transmission and mutual authentication. It's probably proof against the current class of Nokia "cracker phones". The iClass cards can also be used with a manual PIN pad for two factor authentication. (Although there are trivial techniques for snooping a PIN.) But iClass cards and readers aren't cheap either.

    I used the weasel words because Nokias get smarter. And all "security" must be a continually improving process. If you neglect your walls, they will crumble.

  31. Tag, You're It by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    We want the public to be able to read RFID tags, so we have at least the same access to "personal" data as others scanning us. These tags will be left in our stuff at least 10x the rate that checkout droids fail to zap current security tags, which set off store alarms all day long. RFIDs won't set off the alarms, but they'll be big "scan me" signs on our backs wherever we go.

    RFIDs should contain a cryptohash to prevent their data being altered without notice. But the hash and the data must be zeroable, so we can wipe them once we own them. Or the tag must be physically removeable.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  32. More like this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It would be more like this scenario: every rfid chip you are near will be picked up by your cell phone and forwarded to the mothership for analysis, tracking, tracing, etc. All secretly without your knowledge of course. It's basically your everyday Matrix-like nightmare. I suspect that the cell phone as the receiver/transmitter/repeater is just a transitional object though. Something is to come.

    A consumer being able to reset a price would be kinda fun though, but would be easily detected in this new electronic prison control grid.

  33. You're not brave until you're tested. by jbn-o · · Score: 1

    For all of the bravado posts here on /., don't forget that this audience is the same audience that is happy to run (even defend) proprietary software that leaks information about you to untrusted parties, argue that such secrecy is an important expression of freedom (confusing freedom with power), and believes in the myth of the marketplace (if your employer is oppressive, find another job). Once RFID injection becomes commonplace, you'll see this myth exposed yet again (because the poor end up switching jobs that all require RFID injection).

    I wouldn't be surprised if the debate switched from "I don't want to be injected with RFID tags at all!" to "How can I maintain RFID tag portability when I switch jobs?".

  34. Tinfoil RIFD Joke by VeryHotTopic · · Score: 1

    "And here I was expecting some sort of tinfoil/rifd joke."

  35. RFID == passive electronics. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1
    They are usually charged by being hit with RF energy. Resonates back 1/0s (details vary by implementation). Cost is in pennys. Usefull in inventory control. Something like the cavity resonator used by the Ruskys to bug the Moscow US embasy in the 60s.

    A smart card is a small computer with or without wireless. Generally has a battery or requires power.

    Sure you could call anything that exchanges ID information by RF RFID. Garage door openers, RFID. Aircraft transponders, RFID. CB Radio, RFID...IIRC that's called the Humpty Dumpty Fallicy (words mean what YOU ment them to when YOU said them).

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'