Slashdot Mirror
Next-Gen DVD Players to Rely on HDMI?
RX8 writes "For those thinking about upgrading to either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD when they become available, you may want to think again. According to Designtechnica, the next-generation players will not support 1080i or 1080P and quite possibly not even 720P using the component video connection, it will have to use HDMI. Why? Because of copyright enforcement. Hollywood wants these new players to get rid of component video all together. So if you have an HDTV and want to use these new players, chances are you are out of luck. Neither the Blu-Ray or HD-DVD camps are officially saying anything about this yet, but early players are only showing these high resolutions using the HDMI connection."
I'll just keep my money in my bank account and spend the time watching my currently owned DVDs / Videos.
buy an HDCP stripper and HDMI to component convertor. you just know some guy in China is working on one right now.
If this thing goes through, somebody's gonna come up with a little adapter box that'll convert it into S-video. That can be converted to composite / RCA. Problem solved.
"This is a major dilemma, and no one is talking about it" -- THIS is the big thing. We have to be heard to stop things like this. Sure, there's tons of conversation to follow on this thread, but we need to post elsewhere about this as well. I suggest as many people blog about it as possible. I know I will.
Slackmaster K Proprietor, DamnedNice Blog
This will do nothing to discourage the pirate, and will only serve to annoy and alienate paying customers.
What are these copyright protection schemes trying to accomplish? ... 99% of consumers *don't* copy their DVDs, 99% of consumers *don't* upload their DVDs to the internet ... But do you know who this hardware will affect? 99% of consumers.
The last 1% of consumers who do backup / upload will continue to do so regardless of the protection. All it takes is a single producer to have a accidental backdoor (see X-Box exploits via a game).
Further more why are they protecting the extra quality so vigorously? From what I've seen you have get non-HD pictures without any kind of protection, but for HD you need all this crazy stuff... But who is crazy enough to upload a full quality HD movie on the 'net?
I think the copyright holders are going to KILL psychical media far faster than it otherwise would and push consumers towards platforms like iTunes for their video.
If they think everyone will get the latest-and-greatest TV just so they can watch DVDs with a good signal, they mustn't live in the real world. Furthermore, they must be blind if they think every HDCP 'compatible' TV out there is going to listen to every pin and stick 100% to the standard. I think I'll just import a hardware-based HDMI-to-YUV connector from Russia.
If a device doesn't work with my TV, I won't buy it; I have no reason to. Simple as that.
This article would have been better titled: "Next-Gen DVD Formats Will Flop" because that is exactly what is going to happen. They've got a small market of people willing to replace all of their gear as it is, and now they have introduced compatibility problems on purpose with these inane restrictions. Nevermind the fact that they've got two completely incompatible formats, one of which is guaranteed to fail. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. The word of mouth on these things will be how "so-and-so spent gobs of money and it didn't work".
In Soviet America the banks rob you!
What stops someone from sticking a video camera on a tripod and recording a TV? Nothing.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
^^ Submit button got pressed before I could fix the title.
These companies are so focused on restricting the usability of their products to protect imagined revenues that they aren't seeing the big picture - if there is a better, more usable, accessible, cheaper alternative available, people will use that.
The quality of piracy has gone up massively with internet distribution. Once pirates work out a system for ripping HD-DVDs and BluRay (and they will), then they can offer high quality films that will work on computers, older HDTV sets that people invested a lot in, and so on.
Functionality is a massive selling point, enough to make even people that actually do want to pay a fair price for the real thing think about getting the more functional version.
Sadly all this expensive work spent on restricting users will not bring in much more revenue to the companies - those people mainly pirate because they can't afford it otherwise, or wouldn't pay for it being stingy bastards. Instead they'll manage on the DVD resolution version - quality isn't a big issue for them either - students can't afford HDTV systems, stingy people have 20 year old televisions.
Seriously, if this is the case, who is going to waste their money and buy one of these players?.
Consumers will be outraged (even the stupid ones). After all lets see what there is to consider:
I think many retailers will end up experiencing a large increase in returned AV equipment in the coming years so much so that perhaps some retailers may decide to stop stocking such products or at least pick stock that is known to work together.
As for me, I probably wont worry about upgrading because my existing DVD collection is sufficiently entertaining and the quality of movies being released now days is simply appalling. In the end it's just not worth it.
Excuses Are Like Assholes - Everybody's Got One
CSS did nothing to stop pirating of DVDs. Neither did restricting composite outs on DVD players.
My question is, who are the asshats making this decision, because they obviously have no technical background. Anyone who knows anything knows that you don't need any composite outs or decryption schemes to make a bit-for-bit copy of anything. As soon as the first PC Blue-Ray/HD-DVD drive hits the shelves, you will be able to copy these movies. That simple.
(Sure, you may not have anything to copy them *onto*, but that isn't the point. There is nothing to copy them onto if you record them at full resolution via the composite outputs either).
HDMI is unlikely to be required, HDCP over DVI should be fine. The european 'HD Ready' badge only requires HDCP not HDMI.
There are already boxes out there that remove the HDCP, but they'll get their certs revoked and cease to work in future I'd guess.
jh
You could just buy a player that ignores that crap and outputs in 18 different ways. From where might one purchase such a device? Why from the same factory in china that makes the "normal" players. Only these where made on the night shift. And cost 1/4 as much.
The electronics industry's best customers went out and spent thousands of dollars on big-screen television sets with component inputs. Now Hollywood is saying, "Fsck you, you potential copyright terrorist, buy another multi-thousand dollar television set." With any luck, that attitude will kill both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I guess "Ghettos" would be a better description for the areas those industry professionals that cooked up these specs must live in - as high as they must be on drugs...
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
I am really tired of having to upgrade all of my entertainment equipment every 5 years. I am not a bottomless pit of a consumer. I've replaced all of my equipment twice in my lifetime, and I'm only 35. Well, I'm tired of it now. As it is, I have to buy a specialized media pc just to record fscking HD content (where were the components?). Damn Blue Ray! Damn HD-DVD! They can rot for all I care. I won't be hollywood's damn pawn. I am the consumer, and I vote with my wallet. ...and if Blockbuster ever drops the DVD format, guess what? I'm not going to Blockbuster anymore.
Who, in his/hers right mind bought a set/projector/whatever which is HDTV compatible (and I don't mean 480p, I mean atleast 720p and above) and didn't check for DVI with HDCP or HDMI ?
;)
Come on people, if you're about to fork out a grand or more on a "tv", don't you find it reasonable to check so it's somewhat futureproof? We all knew this would happen sooner or later, I'm just surprised it took this long. If I were MPAA I would have made sure to enforce HDMI/HDCP as soon as a ratified draft was ready.
Not that it really matters, almost noone(?) copied movies from DVD to D-VHS/DVD via component anyway, we all know that it's much easier to do with a PC
And I have been avoiding buying one until I could get a decent sized 1080p monitor (40'+) at a decent price. That is starting to become possible. On the other hand, I have been collecting DVDs (I have about 350-400) and watching them on my various limited size computer monitors. As a family (with three kids) we are a little tired of the small monitors. I would love to switch over to one of the new DVD formats. But of course I was waiting for the format war to resolve itself since as you might be able to tell I am a very conservative purchaser when it comes to entertainment systems. I don't rip and share music or movies except in the very limited fair use sense of close friends and family who might be interested in a single thing and who are likely to go out and purchase. As others have said, this requirement will punish me. I don't like that, but at this point it may not prevent me from purchasing... I'll just have to wait a little until the De-HDMI workaround is available... Jon?
Helping with organizational effectiveness is our job.
RCA composite / S-Video are 480i signals. If all you're getting out of your next gen DVDs is 480i, there's no point to upgrade from first gen DVDs. Also, the next gen DVD players definately will support 480i output through legacy connections. What they WON'T support is high quality component connections. If you bought an expensive 1080p TV with component inputs, it won't do you any good at all; you'll have to buy a new more expensive TV with component connections and smart DRM.
There was an analysis of the cost of the PS3 and the DVD alone was almost as expensive as the CPU. Then they proceeded to say that since the definition of the standard was not finished it would also delay the release date of the PS3 if the hardware spec for it didn't change.
So this is another area were SONY the device manufacturer is hurting its core business so that SONY the movie mogul can hold on to an outdated business model.
The only winner here are MS, Nintendo and all the Chinese/Russian pirates that now will have a bigger market of casual pirates that will find it easier to get their warez from them.
Sad.
sent via HDMI, as it features robust copy protection
I think they're talking about the HDCP layer of an HDMI connection.
Of course HDCP can only be considered "robust" if you define it as "proved broken before first implementation"
Actually, all the boxes that are built around Blu Ray at the moment will output 1080i and 1080p over their Component outputs.
They are saying that it's up to the studios to disable this via the medium if they choose too. The box manufacturers want to stay as far away from this arguement as possible, they don't want the bad blood with the consumers. It could well be that the studios do choose to do this, aside from HDCP, Blu Ray also has the additional feature of being able to black list boxes. Apparently what they are doing is embedding the key of the machine that decoded the stream into the video output. That way the studios can pick up that key out of a ripped copy and then disable that unit for all future releases. Based on this, they don't want to introduce any further copy protection onto the Blu Ray discs such as a more advanced version of CSS encoding or other encryption.
However, a lot of this is up to the studios in how they want to protect their content when it's published. What happens thereafter the box manufacturers don't want to know.
Well that's what I was reading the other day anyway.
Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
These moves do nothing to prevent copying.
They are designed to restrict access to the copyrighted works only to limited, licensed, subset of devices that are designed under the tight control of media giants. MPAA wants to decide how you consume their content.
They want you to sit thru the commercials without skip ability. They want to dictate terms to both display manufacturers and end users about the type of display device used. They want region control that works to protect their price discrimination systems (DVD had a crappy first try). They want piece of the pie every step of the way.
Once they control everything, they can start jacking up the price, tighten 'region coding' and other trade barriers, and add up things like 'phone home'. And once that's done, they can start charging per view etc. Or start monthly subscription 'clubs' with latest releases only available to 'premium members'.
Yes, first it will be 'value added services', but media giants think long term. Once it's normal that your MPAA approved Black Box Player is in constant connection over encrypted link to MPAA server farms, with no competition, and no way to play legal content other than MPAA approved, they can start tightening the screws. Oh, and all other ways will be illegal by then. Including movie playback on PC. Hardware makers will get to put their sticker on the black box, and fight to the death with each other on commoditizing the MPAA-approved solution, but that's their part of the pie.
It's all about maximizing the profits. Current plan is to make customer pay more.
"For those thinking about upgrading to either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD when they become available, you may want to think again."
So what's the alternative? What is the High Defintion alternative that is on the horizion that people can purchase instead?
Don't forget that the kind of people with a HD display already are the 'early adopters' who will probably buy both a Blu-Ray and a HD-DVD player.
The alternative is, uh... to watch those Petticoat Junction DVDs they sell at Walgreens for $0.99. Content is King, and the content creators and owners will define the standards.
Same as it ever was.
"I think the copyright holders are going to KILL psychical media far faster than it otherwise would..."
So the movie studios are like Ghostbusters?
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
My 27" picked-up-off-the-curb-and-fixed-a-bad-solder-join t TV has served me well for a decade now; when the vertical hold finally goes out, I'll swap it for a "new"(er) off-the-curb TV provided by one of those gotta-have-HDTV folks in the neighborhood. Repairing to the component level is FUN! (Besides, who really needs HD for the crap that passes for television programming? A decent analog set does fine, works with cable and my cheap DVD player, and will continue to do so for a long time.)
I'll buy an HDTV when there's something SO worth watching on a frequent basis that it exceeds the value of the books I read and the time I spend with my family. (Try reading aloud to your spouse while s/he does the dishes, or vice versa -- now, THAT'S entertainment!)
Which is why I agree with the parent post that these media formats are in serious trouble...
"My strength is as the strength of ten men, for I am wired to the eyeballs on espresso."
is pirating stuff using component? Honestly. if you want to copy it, just rip the original digital files. And do they think that wont be possible with a next gen player, the HD dvd's and BlueRay, they will be cracked, the revokable keys defeated. That is why I always hated macrovision, because on older tvs, (well most TV's) only had one set of composite Inputs, which meant my VCR would go there, and the DVD in to the vcr.... ohhh the movie studios were sooo fucking scared I might tape record (WTF?) a dvd that I couldnt even playback many movies. If I want to copy a dvd, i wont copy it to tape, I will simply crack their silly waste of time encryption and rip it to my hard drive.
The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
No, the serious pirates can for example buy "magic box" from countries outside of DMCA/EUCD reach
Unless they'll be using it outside of DMCA/EUCD reach, they'll have to deal with customs. Or do you claim that HDCP black boxes will be smuggled like cocaine?
I'm using a JVC-HM-DH5U D-VHS deck connected to a Sony HS-20 digital projector via HDMI. I often see dropouts and HDCP renegotiation between the deck and projector during viewing. It's especially apparent during resolution shifts between HD and SD recordings. The renegotiation can take several seconds during which the screen completely blanks, so it's not a minor blip during playback.
If these issues aren't ironed out soon, I expect the first and second generation of HD disc players will not operate with displays with the quality that consumers expect.
Since this is holding up the PS3...s ony.playstation.reut/index.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/TECH/fun.games/02/20/
I wonder if Microsoft (and pals) are somehow dragging feet in the discussion to hold up the PS3?
But not all HDMI and DVI TV's incorporate HDCP, which is the copy protection system.
So even people with HD TVs with HDMI will not be able to use these new formats at full resolution unless they have a relatively new set that has HDCP, and it is compatible with whatever HDMI spec (did you know there are different specs? 1.1, 1.3?) and the HDCP spec used by the new systems.
Imagine buying a HDTV this summer, then for Christmas getting a BR player that doesn't work full quality because your set doesn't have HDMI 1.3 and whatever current version of HDCP...
This is a huge issue, and even the early adopters are getting fidgety about it. While some people may switch out their whole systems, at this point it will be a minority by far. Even on the high end hi-fi and videophile forums there is a lot of discussion of people not being happy about this.
Eventually we may run into a situation where the hardware manufacturers stop caving into the producers demands if we have a situation where even the typical early adopters will not bite.
Shawn's Tech Articles
Hollywood wants these new players to get rid of component video all together.
Hollywood wants these new players to get rid of component video.
(Typos like this make me wonder if people actually understood why the original joke was funny.)
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
If you consider what has happened to music, the major factors within that over the past few years has not involved an improvement in quality at all, it has been about improvements in portability and the way people are accessing music they already have. I expect that we are starting to see a similar thing happen in the video arena. With the introduction of the video ipod and sony psp (as well as other portable devices), it appears that people are happy to compromise on quality for something else, video on the move and the ability to aquire content via the internet. Lets, face it, with all the protection mechanisms involved, plus the basic problem of huge capacity, we aren't going to be downloading hi-def content any time soon.
My expectation is that hi-def is going to end up like Laserdisc, at least in the short to medium term. It will be successful in a limited way. There will be people who appreciate what is on offer and are prepared to pay the price for the upgrade. However, most people will simply decide that what they've already got is good enough. Longer term (5+ years), I expect hi-dev might succeed but it will be through it becoming cheaper and cheaper to the point where, when people are ready to replace their DVD players, they buy a blu-ray (or HD-DVD) set instead. Even then, they may not buy new content in the hi-def format.
Spin vs Counter-Spin:
So what you're REALLY saying is that all Blu-Ray manufacturers are MANDATORILY locking out the normal video outputs on the boxes to screw over the people who buy them, but that they do allow publishers to encode the disks to UNLOCK the normal video outputs. Gee, thanx. Not.
The box manufacturers want to stay as far away from this arguement as possible
If they want to stay away from the argument then they should stay the hell out of it. If they don't want "bad blood" with their customers (and potential customers) then they should not build and impose lockouts into the hardware. They are building lockouts of the normal video outputs in the hardware.
They are up front and center commiting the offence against us by imposing mandatory lockouts into the hardware.
And bad blood they are getting. There is no way in hell I am ever going to buy one of their deliberately crippled boxes. I will either buy from a competitor that does not screw over their product this way, or I will grab some non-crippled grey market / black market box from outside the country, or I simply will not buy one.
And bad blood they are getting. Not only am I refusing to buy these deliberately crippled boxes, as often as possible I actively aviod buying any other products produced by any companies involved in this crap. The bad blood anainst this sort of crap *is* spilling over from the offending products themselves and is impacting the sales of their other products and businesses.
To cite a specific example, I recently saw the commercial for the new UltraViolet movie. I'm watching the commercial and thinking wow, that looks really good. The commercial's not even over and I'm already making plans to go to the theater to see it. And then at the end of the commercial I hear "Sony Pictures". And at that point the BAD BLOOD comes boiling up. Just the name Sony is enough to turn my stomach against a product. I get an angry and sick feeling against the whole thing. And I then lose all interest in going to the theater to see it. If and when it happens to pop up on my cable at home maybe it'll watch it then. If and when I see the Sony trademark or any of these other hardware maker trademarks on some radio or other electronic device on the store shelves, my atuomatic reaction is to just turn and buy from someone else. I'd rather buy just turn and buy an answering machine from some no-name dedicated answering manufaturer than buy a name-brand Sony answering machine.
So yes, manufacturers *are* getting bad blood for designing and manufacturing these auful anti-customer products. Building and imposing these anti-owner lockouts in their hardware is a liability against their name and against their trademark.
Manufacturers imposing these lockout systems in one product line *is* a liability against *all* of their products bearing their trademark.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Discover that after you buy your two shiny new players that they will not work with your existing HDTV so fork out more cash for a new HDTV.
On one hand, I kind of hope that this scheme is a success, because if it is and the early adopters act as you quoted above, then there should be a glut of high-quality HDTVs hitting the used market real soon. Then I might actually be able to afford one! And since any content I view in HD would be over the air (or perhaps *cough* "unencumbered content" aquired by other manners), I wouldn't need the stinking HDMI ports!
Look at the tomato! Isn't it sad? He can't dance! Poor tomato!
Too bad nobody will read it with a score of 0.
Hollywood and the music industry can go srew themselves. But then thats what they are doing.
I'm not about to replace thousands of dollars worth of new equipment just for them and at the same time cut my own throat. All this will do is create a massive black market for bootleg DVDs and other compatible media. Untill they outlaw cds and dvds!
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
Let them legislate themselves into a hole. When they've locked down things to the extent that they apparently want to, their stuff will be so much hassle to operate that no-one will be interested anymore. I've already reached that stage - not through hassle, but fed up with too many fat b@$***s eating all the pie. How will they then get out of the pit they've created for themselves? Will anybody care? I should hope not.
Garbage content with a garbage protection system. That seems sensible.
One thing to remember is that these things are cyclical. The further the pendulum swings on one direction, the faster and harder it will swing back. Ignore it. Choose not to be a party to it, and it will resolve itself ... given time.
I'm looking at getting a decent sized flat panel TV. It'll be an HDTV thing. Why? I can't buy a big flat panel without it. I'll make damned sure it's got an analogue input on it though as I've no intention of using the HDTV features. DVD is more than adequate for my needs.
info@gkmx.co.uk
http://gkmx.co.uk
Collecting a little spam
In the age of FPGAs? Nah, they just be flashed with a "legal" software, declared as such, then reflashed back with the correct firmware securely downloaded off the Net.
Alternatively it can use a standard off-the-shelf FPGA dev board, bought 100% legally off the shelf, as the hardware part.
Customs enforcement was obsoleted by JTAG.
I haven't heard about a single case of prosecution against any seller of modchips alone. All the cases I've read about were really about "harddisk full of games" gratis with modded console.
Console Makers v. Lik Sang anyone?
I just walked away. I had something else to do anyway. So I'll never even know if that game was worth a shit, let alone the console. If that's how the movies of the future are, guess what? I won't be watching.
..we are always supposing that all of this DRM crap is going to work "fine"...I mean, we're speaking about something made by Sony,MS or Macrovision, and all of them gave proof of their "finest abilities" developing such technologies:
Who says that all of this stuff isn't going to crash for no real reason during the next Super Bowl/Champion's League Final/ World Cup Final match?
Last year when my TV died (4:3, ~17 Inch model), I just searched for the most cheapest replacment, I set my budget for ~40.000 Yen. Gosh, I ended up with an amazing 16:9 Sony, ~24 Inch. Of course not HDTV and other crap, but who cares.
... which might not even work in 3-4 years ... TV was the last resort of very long running things, seems Hollywood & Co decided to help the electronic industry and change that too.
The only HDTV device I got is the X-Box 360 my gf bought for herself. Ridge Racers 6 still look good, TV? None that I know here which interests me. DVD? Looks fine too.
There is no need to spend 10x times the money, just to get the latest LCD-high-end-hdtv-super-duper crap
"Freiheit ist immer auch die Freiheit des Andersdenkenden" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1871 - 1919
With announcements like this, it looks like DVD's are here to stay - and the general public will ever move to the HiDef world. They're gripping the reigns so tightly that the horses will never leave the gate.
The general public never adopted LaserDisc, but DVD worked out great because of the lax content restrictions. Hollywood wants to control the home theater the same way they controll the movie theater and IT WILL NEVER WORK!
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
That's like, what, 12 metres? Holy crap. What do you consider to be "large sized"?
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
That should be 40" obviously :-)
Helping with organizational effectiveness is our job.
Another big problem is that HDTV and DVD were hyped simultaneously over the past several years. Before I got a DVD player, I had the impression that DVDs did have HDTV content (anything less would be stupid, right?). Of course, after some reading, I was really suprised to find that DVD is just a decent improvement over VHS but not at all up to driving expensive HDTV displays!
Education issues like this are HUGE! People don't like it when they look stupid buying the wrong things, especially when much $$$ is involved. Thankfully, I learned what I needed to know before the purchase. Most Best Buy monkeys won't be quite so lucky.
I wonder if new dvd copy sofware like dvd next copy from http://www.dvd-next-copy.com/ will work, has anyone tried this software ?