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U.S. IT Hiring Increases Despite Outsourcing
surefooted1 writes "A CNN article reports that a new study has shown that U.S. tech hiring has increased, despite oversees outsourcing. It mentions that the job market is higher today than it was at the height of the dot-com boom." From the article: "The study suggests that there are several factors in the continued growth in demand for IT workers here. The report said part of it is due to the use of offshoring by U.S. companies, including start-up firms, to limit their costs and thus grow their businesses. That, in turn, creates more opportunities here even as an increasing amount of work is done overseas. The study also said that companies from a variety of sectors in the economy continue to discover greater efficiency and more competitive operations through investment in IT."
The more people on the planet involved in the global economy, the more we will ALL benefit. The global economy is not a zero-sum game.
This doesn't mean you can get complacent and stop learning and innovating. Just that everyone can learn, innovate, create, and all humanity can benefit and get wealthier.
And is this at all related to turn over in the industry? are we seeing more hiring because the people who shouldn't be there in the first place are finally bailing?
--Keeping the flame wars alive, one post at a time
It's important to note that we are nowhere near approaching market saturation as computers are concerned.
There are still millions of homes that do not have computers at all; that number is shrinking every day. And more and more households are building home networks, some even going so far as to add servers. Home automation is becoming practical and affordable, meaning even more IT-related equipment is going into the home.
Schools are still trying to catch up to the digital revolution as well. The local district has a 4:1 student to PC ratio, and their target is 1:1. They'll be buying PCs as quickly as budget allows. The more they buy, the more they'll spend on IT--and most of that will necessarily be in the immediate area.
And of course businesses are investing more and more into IT as they stop seeing it as a money sink and start viewing it as a way to increase efficiency or even as an investment.
The outsourcing we're seeing is simply the offloading of what jobs can be done without being on site. There is a lot more IT work that requires proximity than work that can be sent overseas.
120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
In other words, outsourcing has actually helped our economy and provided new employment opportunities for the displaced
Correlation != causation. There's nothing to say the tech industry wouldn't be even more vibrant without the outsourcing.
This article points out the obvious fact that we are insanely addicted to technology.
I dunno. Saying we are addicted to technology is like saying we are addicted to air and clean drinking water.
Secondly, business is like war. Those with the most resources and better technology win (or go home with the bigger stock options). A company that doesn't have a competant IT staff and workers skilled in using computers and is competing with a company that does, is like a band of spear men going against a tank in a war game.
Sure, if you throw enough spear men at a tank, you can beat it like in Civilization II, but your basically bleeding more money than a drunken VC at a Phantom Console shareholders meeting.
No one wants to be sent on a Bi-Plane with machine guns against a guy with Stealth bombers and guided missles. The same goes for a guy with a hand crank calculator and a peice of paper going against a guy with a copy of excel and a laser printer.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
I dont know how truth there is to this but I remember reading a while ago that companies where having problems with outsourcing. Projects where late, missing requirements and so on. Maybe this increase in employment is a reflection on the companies realizing that it is better to have local companies do the work? If you have to outsource part of your project to a company that is say next door or on the same block it is alot easier to keep tabs on what is going on and on making changes.
Doesn't it make sense, thought, that after a long cycle of firing IT workers that they will need to hire some of that lost staff? Just because hiring is on the rise doesn't mean the IT field is suddenly healthy again. If I start up a company and hire 100 workers over 5 years, then I fire 75 of them, then a year later hire 25 more, I could rightfully claim that my company is growing faster than ever. Doesn't mean it's more healthy than ever. Doesn't mean my company is better off than it was 3 years ago.
-Arthur
Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
I guess it depends on things like regional economics and the quality of your school and grades. I'm still working on my CS degree and companies are jumping all over me left and right to get me hired while I'm still in school.
In other words, outsourcing has actually helped our economy and provided new employment opportunities for the displaced, just like almost every respectable economist has said it would, just like it has always done over the years.
It's helped IT workers the same that it helped Autoworkers 20 years ago. From TFA:
expanding opportunities for those trained in fields such as software architecture, product design, project management and IT consulting
Depending on what one would call Software Architecture, most of these "expanding" fields are ones that require higher education than those who were displaced. The jobs that have been lost are the ones of entry level programmers, IT support individuals-- in fact, the expanding opportunities are ones that have not been moved, or have been minimally affected. The problem with the statement "everything is going to be ok" is that it's not ok for everyone.
Taking away a job from someone and then saying there's another job available but that it requires more skills is like taking a bone away from a dog and putting it onto of the fridge and saying "if you can get it, it's yours". Yes, the jobs are there, but unless you provide some assistance in training those displaced to fill those jobs then it still doesn't help those whos jobs were outsourced in the first place.
Every day the US is becoming a country where the educational and economical divide grows. The problem is that those on the top are increasing looking down on those below them, and those below them, are becoming increasing bitter of the fact that no-one is watching out for them.
(I'm not advocating that outsourcing be banned, however, I am advocating that something be done to help those who were displaced)
It's nice to see people are doing their usual bang up job of actually reading the article before commenting. "The study cites estimates that between two to three percent of IT jobs will be lost annually to lower-wage developing countries through the process known as offshoring. But it said the U.S. IT sector's overall growth should outpace that loss of jobs, expanding opportunities for those trained in fields such as software architecture, product design, project management and IT consulting." ESTIMATE, ESTIMATE losses and SHOULD, SHOULD outpace. That's a big difference between estimating numbers and stating real numbers. THEY ARE GUESSING!! They don't know what will happen. They are speculating it won't be so bad but he have no idea if it will be so. Oh and the increase in wages, 2-5 percent, is simply COST OF LIVING! That's not real growth. Nice job thinking things are improving when they are not. FYI, no RESPECTABLE economist thinks off-shoring is a good idea.
That was a historical aberration and there's no economic policy that will bring it back.
I'd have to disagree. Mostly, because I believe economics and technology is hard to predict. We might see somthing similar in the 2020's if Nanotech took off or neural interfaced VR etc. Heck, we might a second bubble in the 2010's with robotics.
All our current college degrees and current certificates might be worthless when a new technology pardigm comes along and shatters our current economic mode.
The internet boom from 1999 to 2001 was unpredicted and unexpected. It was a shock to the current economic system today and changed all our lives. This is of course the nature of accelerated changes in technology growth.
To sit back and say "This won't ever happen again." is kind of a 'head in the sand' kind of mentality. Personally, I know it may never happen, but I am keenly aware of the fact that if I fail to constantly update my skills and be willing to learn, I might miss out on future oportunities and in worse case scenario also face a pink slip because my skills and degree are no longer valid.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
Unfortunately it's also retarted. I see 40 somthing It pros that make a 20 something fresh out of college with his Masters in IT look downright stupid because of their lack of real world experience.
Who do they hire? the seasoned vetran that can hit the ground running?
nope... they hire the piece of paper.
You seem to be working under this fallacy that what is most efficient economically is what is best for society.
What is best for society is normative, not positive.
Note: lower prices mean nothing if pay and number of jobs are also lowered.
read this guy's post or this guy's
Prices may be lower, but the motive is profit, so this means the number of jobs and the salaries paid are not tracking the the lower prices. The public is losing a percentage of their real income to firms, and it is doubtful that this mass transfer of wealth from consumer to producer is good for our middle class.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
I'm sorry, but if we want to outsource our lowest common denominator positions, go for it.
It's kind of ridiculous.
Dude: Oh no! We've outsourced our cashier positions! Now we're only hiring management, finance, and HR positions for Americans.
Me: But... isn't that a good thing?
Dude: Those positions require more education!
Me: But... isn't that a good thing?
Or.
Dude: I used to get paid $95k as an entry level programmer. Now my friend who just started at the same position is only making $45k...
Me: So you were probably being paid more than market value.
Dude: Yeah, but outsourcing is causing my position to become commoditized!
Me: So you should probably educate yourself more and move up, huh?
Dude: That requires work!
Me: So I guess $45k aint so bad for that mentality eh?
Dude: NO, but I used to make $90k! This isn't fair!
Me: If your company paid everybody double their market value, they'd go under and have to lay you off. That probably isn't fair either.
--
Last time I checked, entry level programming postions aren't something you just walk in off of the street and do. It requires learning too. The IT industry, much with every other revolution, raised the minimum standards of education, training, and expectations. That's the sort of thing that keeps America competitive and able to call itself a developed nation.
"Every day the US is becoming a country where the educational and economical divide grows. The problem is that those on the top are increasing looking down on those below them, and those below them, are becoming increasing bitter of the fact that no-one is watching out for them.
(I'm not advocating that outsourcing be banned, however, I am advocating that something be done to help those who were displaced)"
I vehemently disagree on the educational front, and would suggest you post facts for the "economical" divide you suggest is occurring.
Graduating from high school in the US opens up all the education that one needs. Student loans are available to anyone who needs them, regardless of earnings, credit history, or virtually any other consideration (there are a few qualifiers, but they are easily met). So the argument that students can't afford school is BS.
Which could only leave access, but that's a BS argument too, because many (not sure exactly how many) states require state funded schools to accept Community College/Junior College graduates. Similarly, they require CC/JCs to accept high school graduates. So the access argument is BS too.
Now, kindly explain HOW you came to the conclusion that the education divide is widening when there is an educational opportunity for virtually anyone who can graduate (and in many places, Florida for example, you don't even need to do that, just pass a GED, or General Equivalency Diploma test, which is 10th grade level).
More chicken little BS.
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
That's true until you gain some experience and start looking for your next job.
At that point, you'lf find yourself categorized and pigeonholed based on the tech that you've had formal wexperience with, not the tech you actually know.
It's easier to find work (in some ways) when you're fresh out of school.
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
"So now I work at McDonalds for $6/hr."
I delivered pizza in college, and averaged around $15 an hour.
I'd say your problem is that you make decisions like accepting a job at McD's when then are other options out there. In other words, you don't do a very good job of looking.
And save your retort, there are ALWAYS pizza delivery jobs around college campuses. If you try to claim otherwise, I'd like your approximate location so I can check.
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
Its members are mostly academics, who make their living not by programming but by encouraging as many people as possible to major in computer science. So naturally it is in their interest to paint a rosey picture of future employment prospects.
People would just be fine with an Internet Browser, and a way to organize their photos.
I'm not so sure about this. My previous experiences in retail would seem to say otherwise. I mean, there are still similar devices available; MSN TV still exists. I've even sold one.
One. To an old lady who kept coming back to the store once a month for 6 months to look at it before buying it.
In contrast to hundreds of computers. Even people who only want simple internet access seem to prefer to buy a full fledged (if bottom of the line) computer. It may be a $300-after-mail-in-rebates-celeron machine, but they seem to avoid anything else like it's the plague. Not that I blame them.
That being said, specific purpose machines (e.g. TiVo for digital video recording) do tend to find their niches and can do very well. I just don't know that an internet photo box is ever going to be a viable standalone product.
Especially if there's going to be a $100 laptop.
"When we hire C programmers, we give a programming test. Most applicants don't realize it's not good to lose a reference to allocated memory, have no problem passing stack variables back to the calling function, and can't spot a variable that's used before initialization."
o cmem.html
These are experience related issues. You can't expect someone with a little college training to know about memory allocation issues. They don't even teach those languages anymore. At my school they start with Java. How are you supposed to know about the stack when you start in Java? I wrote something about this exact issue.
http://www.signalsguru.net/articles/cexample/call
Euphemism watch:
anti-market = anti-laissez-faire market.
more efficient = child labor, no workplace safety, no education, no free speech, no ability to associate or organize or participate in government policymaking, no hope, no future, in other words, being completely fucked... until, since there's no democractic process, a violent revolution takes place. Or not.
Slavery is efficient. Neofeudalism is efficient.
You know what though? All this efficiency is just shitting where you sleep. It's the Asian Brown Cloud of economics, not some unpredictable weather phenomenon.
I'd like to see that $2.50 go up over time,
I have no qualms at all about trading with another country that has some form of legal parity. But you want to trade with those who don't, because on some level that's the whole point. It's not about matching up supply and demand, it's about evading policies.
You don't want to engage in a policy debate, so you try to make it an economic one.
Sooner or later it comes back to the same thing. You want to have child labor, and we won't let you, so you're wondering if you can do it somewhere far away, out of sight, maybe to another nation or race, so it's less offensive... all of this based on the ugly and racist theory that they're so bad off they'll actually benefit from what we would never consider allowing.
It's not some economic necessity for children to work 14 hour days in a factory instead of going to school. It's not a precursor stage on the path to wealth.
protectionism = less efficient = no child labor, no locked fire exits, no throwing people injured on the job to the street to beg and die there, no fixing the game so that the working classes are so fucking screwed it takes a miracle for "some [to] even save up enough to allow their children to go to school."
On the other hand, I'd hate to see that $2.50 go back down to under $1 or to $0/unemployment because of U.S. protectionism or Chinese return to over-regulation of markets.
To be prosperous, China needs to learn what it is you are trying to forget - that markets don't run on pure ruthlessness, and "free markets" are an oxymoron. No market is "free" except for open anarchy where there is no market. All markets are based on rules, and "laissez faire" rules have a proven track record of human misery and failure.
You need the kind of balance that I'm lately assuming was achieved accidentally in the USA - between liberal and conservative forces, so that you have a strong and liberal (in the European sense) market but with enough decent social policy to disrupt the natural stratification of capital.
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They may be implying that "the change in hiring for IT is up" which means that it went from a decrease of 20% last year to a decrease of only 10% so far this year. But IT hiring is unquestionably down and CNN's reporters, who suffer from innumeracy, have been swayed once again by employers intent on raising H1-B hiring caps.
Asshats who mistake a function's _derivative_ or second derivative for the function itself are called "politicians" and are generally not trusted.