Slashdot Mirror


The Creative Power of Second Life

Alice, over at Kotaku, has a post up looking at what Second Life means to the Web 2.0 crowd. Cory Ondrejka gave a presentation at the O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference about what 2L is about, and dropped some interesting statistics on the audience. From the article: "Here's Cory's killer factoid, just announced here: Over 70% of Second Life residents have created an artifact - from scratch - in this past week. That's one crazy level of output. To give you a bit of perspective, that's approximately 23,000 human hours of play-work per day. Cory points out that this would cost Linden Labs over $400m a year to produce centrally, clearly not a viable business prospect. "

50 comments

  1. 23,000 human hours??? by kometes · · Score: 1

    That's like a few WoWseconds. OMG!

  2. V1agra11111!11 by emj · · Score: 3, Funny
    From the article:
    last year I met a guy who sells genitals in Second Life. Yup - stick-on genitals, because the default avatar has none.


    He he! with all these in game terminals and AIM api being free, soon you will get "get larger" IMs and mails in game as well as in real life.
  3. Created a what now? by FooAtWFU · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Created an "artifact"? What qualifies? If I take one of Second Life's "prims" and just place a sphere somewhere in space, does that count? I think the statistics are... overrated.

    And how on Earth does he come up with the hour figure exactly?

    --
    The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    1. Re:Created a what now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      The official site claims about 156,000 users. 70% of 156K = 109,200. 109.2K divided by 23K hours = about 4.75 hours of work to create an artifact.

      Conclusion: People are stupid.

    2. Re:Created a what now? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Why stupid? I spent more than that writing the code for mine. I must be somewhere about 1K lines right now. It's my first attempt though, so it's taking some time.

    3. Re:Created a what now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can divide that 156k users by about 5 because Linden allows alts, but you have to sign up a completely new account so they get to count you as a separate user. I played for a bit and literally every single person I met had at least 2 alts

    4. Re:Created a what now? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      Created an "artifact"? What qualifies? If I take one of Second Life's "prims" and just place a sphere somewhere in space, does that count?
      If you listen to the original interviews, yes - that does count.
    5. Re:Created a what now? by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      Rumor has it you spent an hour yesterday walking your dog for fun--wow are you stupid, I can't believe you are doing work and you think it is fun. I pay someone to walk my dog.

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
  4. 99% of it is shit by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And therefore it would only cost Linden Labs about $4m a year to produce work with more significant quality. It's kinda stupid to do this kind of analysis anyway. The whole point of Second Life is that it is different. Comparing Second Life with, oh, I don't know, WoW, is like comparing apples and oranges. You can like both, it's ok.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
  5. If only... by C10H14N2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...the graphics in Second Life weren't oh-so-1995--and yeah, everyone is making stuff. Well, that's just great. Kind of like the last time I was at a county fair and realized the same thing...and not only didn't want any of it, but wanted to get as far away from it as humanly possible.

    1. Re:If only... by AdamTrace · · Score: 1

      Just because YOU don't want any of the junk people make (and nor do I, particlarly), there IS a market for it.

  6. Creative my ass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I went and downloaded the linux 'alpha' client, read about how wonderful Second Life was on the forums, read how an initial registration for a single new user account was free, and thought that was wonderful.

    Then, on page 2 of the registration process, after having already picked out a name and given an email address I find out they need a credit card number for 'age verification'. That is, if you are in a country that they cant send a verifying SMS message to a mobile, as was my situation.

    The only other industry I have seen 'free' accounts need age verification via CC for is porn. This is also notorious for its fraud and infiltration by organised criminal syndicates. Suffice it to say that it will be a cold day in hell before my CC details are given to this MMOG - like porn, the best can be had for free.

    And thus the great Second Life experiment came to an end. Hmmph.

    1. Re:Creative my ass by AdamTrace · · Score: 5, Interesting

      My friend and I both submitted our cards. I didn't have any problem, and doubt I'll see any fruadulent charges (or ANY charges).

      My friend, however, had his credit card company call him with a "suspicious charge". Apparently LL charges $1 to the card, and then credits it back (I guess to verify that it's a real card?!) Sounds kinda weird.

      I don't have a problem with it, but obviously YMMV.

      As for Second Life... I started it up just as a lark. I'm a coder, and I liked the idea of creating and scripting objects for fun. And it's been a lot of fun. I answered a couple want-ads, looking for scripters, and have actually gotten paid to create some casino games.

      I'm not going to retire off it, but I don't remember making money or particularly using my brain (Fireball, Scorch, Scorch, Scorch, Frost Nova, repeat) in WoW... so it's been fun.

      The furries, however... they scare me a little. :)

    2. Re:Creative my ass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then, on page 2 of the registration process, after having already picked out a name and given an email address I find out they need a credit card number for 'age verification'. That is, if you are in a country that they cant send a verifying SMS message to a mobile, as was my situation.

      Huh? How can they verify your age by sending you a text?

    3. Re:Creative my ass by vadim_t · · Score: 2, Informative

      The $1 thing seems to be done by Amazon as well, at least they did it with me. I was quite surprised at first, but came to the conclusion that it must be some kind of test, as it was refunded.

      I don't know why the furries scare you though. Luskwood seems to be full of geeks, it's great.

    4. Re:Creative my ass by greenreaper · · Score: 1

      But the geeky furries are the most dangerous kind - you of all people should know that! ;-)

    5. Re:Creative my ass by greenreaper · · Score: 1

      It verifies the owner of the phone, and assumably they can check the age from the phone company's records. Of course, it's not perfect, but a perfect way would cost far too much.

    6. Re:Creative my ass by FLEB · · Score: 1

      I've seen it done a lot at "pay-at-the-pump" gas stations, as well. Some of them pre-verify the CC with a quick $1 yo-yo charge before they let you pump gas.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    7. Re:Creative my ass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      they can check the age from the phone company's records.

      I don't see how, at least the way the system works in the UK. Either they are pre-pay, which are common amongst adults and minors, in which case there's no phone company records on the person; or they are contract, which will be paid by an adult regardless of whether an adult or minor uses it.

    8. Re:Creative my ass by AlexMax2742 · · Score: 1

      You're not missing much. There is no such thing as free speech in SL, and if your work of art offends a good majority of the playerbase, you will be booted out of there.

      --
      I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
    9. Re:Creative my ass by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sure you are. You're missing the most horrific example available today of what DRM on physical objects will be like in the not too distant future. I'd love to teach a class where I justify the right of creators to control how people use their creative works, then set the students loose in Second Life and see how long it takes them to come to the conclusion that being dominated by the arbitary whims of others is not a good thing.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    10. Re:Creative my ass by Ailure · · Score: 1

      Being one of thoose furries, I can say that ehh.... some of the charcther models might want me to stay around as human at first. The models dosen't look realistic at all (It makes me think on first generation N64 graphics, just smoother).

      Meh, I check it out. At least it's one of the few "MMO" (yes i'm aware it's not really a MMO, more like a 3D online chat thingy) that don't require you to make a "private server" just to have custom scripting possible. Though it makes me wonder if the freedom been too much for a few people and have created malicous items...

    11. Re:Creative my ass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The only speech that is limited is extremely intolerant hate speech (ie Nazi propaganda, racism, etc). SL has a lot of content that would go well beyond most people's acceptance threshold, and it is allowed to persist in the Mature regions without much incident.

      However, I have a feeling this isn't the "work of art" you're talking about. I've seen this complaint time and time again.

      Often people who register complaints like yours seem to think that "speech" or "art" includes using a scripted weapon designed to kick people several server regions away (sometimes causing them to have to re-log) or to flood the grid with "grey goo" self-replicating objects that overwhelm the servers so that everyone is effectively DDoSed.

      I prefer to think of this kind of "performance art" as being an asshole griefer, myself, and I'll lay down bets that this is the kind of "work of art" you were performing when you got booted.

    12. Re:Creative my ass by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Quality varies, but the Luskwood avatars are really good. I'd say that overall the graphics quality probably has a lot to do with it being so dynamic. You can't optimize it like Quake by manually tweaking until it's perfect and precalculating things.

      Yes, there are malicious items, but in my experience, Linden Labs deals very swiftly with abusers. The client logs people who for instance push you, and allows to easily report abuse if it happens.

    13. Re:Creative my ass by AlexMax2742 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I personally don't create things. An acquantince of mine got banned for making a 'fetus cannon' as a joke. Also, a good number of other acquantinces got banned over similarly silly shit. Apparently being offensive is all right as long as you're one of the 'accepted offensive' standards.

      I might be a bit biased, because I was a member of the W-Hat group. I assume I still am, but last I checked the old land plot we used to own all of and build shit on is a shadow of what it once was, and since I felt like there were eyes watching me everywhere I went.

      For the uneducated, W-Hat is notorious for being greifers and unpleasent people to be around. Or at least that's the line you get when you visit SL.com forums. In reality, W-Hats are/were some of the most creative people I ever met, who got screwed over because a bunch of the pivital members got banned for "offensive content" that really amounts to nothing more harmful than the fetus cannon I was refering to earlier. Really, is pissing people off a crime?

      Oh yeah, and one of our (then) newer guys made the very first greifsphere. He's banned, and he didn't bother coming back, get over it.

      Oh, and maybe one of us shoved you and knocked you ten sims away at some time in the past, but honestly, you're just as likely to run into that with random assholes, and it's against W-Hat rules to be assholes to people anyway.

      --
      I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
    14. Re:Creative my ass by EZLeeAmused · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Pissing people off isn't a crime, but your friend wasn't put in jail. Granted some people either have thin skins or what they consider offensive is strongly related to political correctness. Some people need to get a sense of humor. Second Life isn't life, it's an opt-in entertainment venue. But on the other hand:
      Say you're a member of a club, one that has a physical building (health club, Elks club, whatever). You can do and say a lot of things inside that building. But not very many such places would let you paint graffiti on the walls, even if they could clean it off easily. Second Life doesn't want graffiti on their walls.
      Also, Linden Labs is trying to make a profit. If you have a griefer (who pays one membership fee to be there) wandering around annoying people, and his/her actions cause two other people to quit or not buy in after a trial membership, Linden's net profits are reduced. Second Life isn't life, it's a business.

      --
      Some see the vessel as half full; others see it as half-empty; We pour it out on the floor and laugh
    15. Re:Creative my ass by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      > You're not missing much. There is no such thing as free speech in SL, and if your work of art offends a good majority of the playerbase, you will be booted out of there.

      Bullshit, people complain about the impeach bush signs almost everyday, and the creator still hasn't been booted for it.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    16. Re:Creative my ass by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Actually, I have never seen Lindenlabs tell people they can't have certain content inside buildings, private sims etc. The issues you were probably talking about, most likely conflict with the 'fly-by rule' as some put it (where, objectional content shouldn't be in plain sight, but they can be say in a club, private sim).

      Or, possibly having objectional content in a PG-rated simulator.

      You can also get booted for harassing other players etc. which members from w-hat have been known to perform on occasion.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    17. Re:Creative my ass by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      > Then, on page 2 of the registration process, after having already picked out a name and given an email address I find out they need a credit card number for 'age verification'. That is, if you are in a country that they cant send a verifying SMS message to a mobile, as was my situation.

      Actually it's for verifying the user. Lindenlabs (creators and owners of Secondlife), tend to use it to keep known griefers off, people from registering multiple free accounts (your first account is free).

      To be honest, I'm quite happy with this system, it works better than any other online game banning system I've seen.

      People can also be banned by machine hashes, preventing many people who do identity theft or such to get back on Secondlife.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    18. Re:Creative my ass by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Secondlife doesn't require you to buy a "private server" to have scripting. I've seem some rather realistic models, far better than some games I've seen on Secondlife. Remember the avatars tend to be as good as the creator, if it's someone creating a avatar and has little knowledge on the theories of creating 3d modeling, don't expect their avatars to look great (The theories and understanding isn't required to create stuff on Second life, however one can plainly see that those that do have the knowledge, appear to make a lot nicer things).

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    19. Re:Creative my ass by AlexMax2742 · · Score: 1
      Say you're a member of a club, one that has a physical building (health club, Elks club, whatever). You can do and say a lot of things inside that building. But not very many such places would let you paint graffiti on the walls, even if they could clean it off easily. Second Life doesn't want graffiti on their walls.

      Right then. But how can they say that...say...furry porn should be tolerated while fetus cannons shouldn't? How can you say which one is more offensive than the other?

      I think it's more of an issue of them taking a heavy handed approach to content moderation. I felt like your content MUST be sanitary and non-offensive to as many people who subscribe to the game as possible. When trying to create humorous things, it's like walking through a minefield, you have to make sure you're not pissing everyone off with your creation.

      Which is why "there is no such thing as free speech in Second Life" was accurate. Speech and content that is inoffensive to the large majority of the population doesn't NEED to be protected, it already is. In a non-club organization such as Real Life(TM), free speech is free speech, no matter how hateful, offensive or vulgar it is (with the token exceptions of fire in a crowded theatre, etc.). I suppose I'm just sad to see such a potential for creativity in Second Life go undone as they go for a little extra cash instead of trying a sort of 'virtual first amendment' it in their game. That would have made a neat idea truely unique to the point where I would be willing to look past the other technical limitations and shortcomings of the game.

      --
      I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
  7. Of course, the furry fandom is all over that by greenreaper · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Places like The Forest, FurNation Worlds and Luskwood are brimming with user-created stuff. Not all of it is very good, but there's certainly a market for it - or at least a lot of people willing to create stuff in the hope that they can sell it.

    1. Re:Of course, the furry fandom is all over that by qeveren · · Score: 1

      Huh? What's wrong with Luskwood avatars? I thought they were rather nice, in a cartoony sort of way.

      --
      Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
    2. Re:Of course, the furry fandom is all over that by greenreaper · · Score: 1

      Right . . . I was using them as an example of "very good", not "not all". :-)

  8. No one ever went broke... by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1

    ...underestimating the taste of the American public -- PT Barnum

  9. Paying for your phone by tepples · · Score: 1

    Either [mobile phones] are pre-pay, which are common amongst adults and minors, in which case there's no phone company records on the person

    So how do you pay the bill without a card?

    or they are contract, which will be paid by an adult regardless of whether an adult or minor uses it.

    But if the adult willfully gives the phone to a minor, then the adult is responsible for everything that the minor does using the phone.

    1. Re:Paying for your phone by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      So how do you pay the bill without a card?

      Well, the way it's done here in the US is you go to the grocery store and buy a phone top-up card with cash. The card has a code on it, which you type into your phone to apply the credit to your account. Since it's a prepaid account, not a monthly plan, there is no "bill" - if your account balance drops to zero, your phone just stops working until you bring it back up.

      With some prepaid phone companies (Virgin Mobile, at least) you don't even need to give your name. You need a name on the account, but you can tell them your name is Superfly Johnson and they'll just nod and wink. They certainly can't verify your age.

      Outside the US, where GSM is the standard, I suppose you can just buy a prepaid SIM at the store and plug it into your phone, without even having to make up a fake name.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    2. Re:Paying for your phone by Fred+Or+Alive · · Score: 1

      With pre-pay phones you buy credit before you use the phone. The phone calls cost more than with a contract of course, so if you're more than a light user they aren't that good value.

      The old way of getting is to basically buy a bit of card with a secret number on it that'll add £x to your balance when you phone your operator and dial it in. The new way is that you get a card (magnetic stipe I think) lets retailers which display a "Top Up" logo directly credit your phone. Lloyds TSB now have an option to top up phones on their cash points, not sure how that works, as I haven't used it.

      I was about 15 (and therefore legally a minor) when I first bought a pre-pay mobile phone, and had no problem buying one, and I didn't have any adult with me etc. I was probably in school uniform at the time and all.

      Mobile phones aren't much of an age thing, most secondary school kids will have one nowadays.

      --
      10 PRINT "LOOK AROUND YOU ";
      20 GOTO 10
  10. Re:Umm... by vertinox · · Score: 1

    ...the graphics in Second Life weren't oh-so-1995--

    Thats harsh... Quake I didn't come out til 1997.

    Secondly, the only online games by 1997 was Ultima Online, M59 and muds. I don't think they can compare at all in graphics.

    If you said "oh-so-2000" then I'd agree.

    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
  11. Monkeys and Typewriters by cryptomancer · · Score: 1

    You know the saying, and probably some variations thereof. "An infinite number of monkeys typing at an infinite number of typewriter will eventually produce the complete works of Shakespeare." My favorite is actually monkeys, shotguns, stopsigns, and the works of Shakespeare in Braille. But I digress..

    As pointed out by others, a lot of this 'content' that LL didn't have to produce isn't all that great. It's amateur, not professionally developed 'content'. (Yes, the quote marks are indicating sarcasm, or that the word isn't the best choice.)

    But more importantly, a lot (~99%) of all this created stuff all over the place is static. Nothing to interact with. Scenery. That hardly makes it count as content because there's nothing to do with it. So back to the original figure of hours of work put into creating stuff and dollars saved.. take just 1% of that, because only 1% of the monkeys in the sandbox are creating stuff anybody else would want to play with.

    --
    Yes, we understand these tags always apply: fud, dupe, typo, slashdotted, topic name
    1. Re:Monkeys and Typewriters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An infinite number of monkeys with typewriters can enumerate 1/3 in decimal. They can enumerate 1/7 instead. But can they do both?

    2. Re:Monkeys and Typewriters by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      I know this is kinda an old story, but I'm just getting around to it.

      I agree, it's a huge world and probably 90% of it is pretty crappy.

      I think it's more like 90/10 than 99/1 though, one thing about secondlife is that first impressions can easily be wrong. It's a huge world and it takes weeks to even see a small part of it. As a newb it's easy to mostly see the crappy parts.

      That upper 10% is great, and I don't mean places listed on the "popular" list, those are mostly clubs with camping chairs (yes I think the concept of camping chairs is retarded too).

      Anyway, I guess my point is, SecondLife is what we make it. I started a company on there to create highly interactive games in-world, and there's a pretty large demand. I'm not getting paid even minimum wage yet, but I'm building up a pretty solid revenue stream with the games we're creating.

      One of the problems is there's probably only about 250-500 good LSL scripters out there in SL, and probably 5000 good builders. My company employes two builders on a contract basis, and they are often idle because they can build stuff a lot faster than we can script it.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
  12. Overreliance on playermade content. by MaWeiTao · · Score: 1

    Player-created content is great and it seems to be a good fit for Second Life. However, I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea because I think it appeals to developers as a cost-cutting measure, not as a way of creating a dynamic world.

    Imagine paying a monthly subscription fee and on top of that having to produce your own content to keep the game going. And I hate to say it but more often than not player content and mods are subpar.

    What I'd like to see is a union of the two where the developers create the world and then players shape that world via their actions. Players can take positions of power, build cities, vie for influence all within the context of the game world. And every so often the developers inject external elements, be it a new threat or new allies or whatever to keep things interesting. What MMOs truly need isn't merely additional content, they need a dynamic world with evolving storylines.

    Unfortunately, I think people find Second Life's model appealing because of what it means to the bottom line, not because of any potential it has for enhancing the gameplay experience.

    1. Re:Overreliance on playermade content. by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      User-created content is great and it seems to be a good fit for the WWW. However, I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea because I think it appeals to developers as a cost-cutting measure, not as a way of creating a dynamic world.

      Imagine paying a monthly subscription fee to your ISP and on top of that having to produce your own content to keep the WWW going. And I hate to say it but more often than not user content and pagers are subpar.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
  13. The POINT of all this... by AdamTrace · · Score: 1

    ... is that players LOVE to be enabled to create and share new content.

    I read an article about the early days of the Internet. No one really predicted that if you give someone a web browser, and show them how to write HTML and create a page, that everyone would start producing stuff FOR FREE. In a world dominated by cable-companies selling TV channels, no one could have known that people were so willing to share information just for the sake of doing it. Yes, most of it were pages dedicated to their cats...

    I believe (and hope), that games are moving in the right direction. Map editors (Wolf3d, DOOM, Quake, etc), mod-able games (CounterStrike), player made content (Neverwinter Nights, The Sims, Second Life, etc)... this is all a good, natural thing. Sure, a lot of it is crap, but it's FREE crap, and it's not ALL crap, and it kind of self-regulates.

    So, if more game companies tap into that desire of players to be creative and create content, I think they're onto something. You grumpy folks who say "So, what, *I'm* supposed to write the game for them?" miss the point.

    I mean, look at Slashdot, and how much "user created content" is on this site. Hell, 99% of the content here is commentary...

  14. Marx was wrong? by harloholmes · · Score: 1

    Doesn't this prove some sort of flaw in Marx's whole separation of labor theory? Maybe we should be talking about this! This is potentially huge!

  15. the "man" hours invested by objwiz · · Score: 1

    A girl friend of mine puts in 1/2 those hours just by herself.

    Obviously, thats not totally true. But she is, imho, to the point of addiction. Her entire schedule is dictated by what she will be doing in secondlife. She even cut back on working in RL by 1 day less (from 2) just so she had more time in game.

    I'll admit, she does make about $1K USD every month from her creativity used within the game. Thats nice but her hourly rate has got to be way below minimum wage.

  16. If you enjoy the work, does it matter? by greenreaper · · Score: 1

    You could view it as recreation time. Only you get paid!