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Banned From WoW For WINE & Programmable Keyboard
An anonymous reader writes "Player gets banned for playing World of Warcraft under WINE and using a Logitech Gaming keyboard. "I am an experienced network engineer for an ISP and I am often running World of Warcraft on Linux through the use of WINE..."" Although the e-mails exchanged are unclear
my guess is that the programmable keyboard was more the problem then WINE. Not that you'd ever know that given that Blizzard communicates with their users seemingly almost exclusively with form letters.
He should consider it a favor. Now he can go back to living his life.
It stings to get banned... but realy any MMO is a waste of time, WoW being one of the worst in my opinion.
if this is Blizzards new attitiude towards it's customers, maybe I can get all of my friends to stop playing WoW and spend some time in the real world interacting with people in person.
Mod me a troll if you want it won't change the fact that I am siclk of Fantasy MMOs.
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way.
Mark Twain
In any situation which one party has vastly superior authority and little chance of penalized. Don't expect them to act in a reasonable manner.
Gotta love the hypocrisy from Taco complaining about unresponsive, noncommunicative companies.
Anybody else unfortunate enough to email the editors about an issue? Whether it is abusive moderation, story dupe/inaccurate/inflammatory, or posting bans, almost all the editors respond with one-line dismissals or direction to read their outdated FAQ which hasn't been updated in years.
Taco really has balls so whine about Blizzard, especially the last time he bitched on the front page about his screen name being changed.
It's really funny when the shoe is on the other foot.
Banned for violating the rules with his programmable keyboard. They outright told him that; he was interacting with his environment in an unattended manner. That's a violation of the TOS for every MMORPG I've ever read the TOS for, which admittedly isn't many.
However, it is telling that he knows that bot programs won't work on Wine under Linux; I'm not buying the story that he tested them all subsequently.
Summation: Cheated. Got caught. Got banned. Whined and told his buddies an "edited" version of the story, so they all rallied behind him. Tough noogies.
I don't think you have any rights related to software you can't completely control yourself. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong here. That said, my experience with most RPG's is that they involve a lot of repetition (which is why the guy programmed some macros). Apparently this is part of the official, mandatory WoW experience. That would explain why goldfarming (or whatever it's called in the game) is so popular. Someone at Blizzard must have taken econ101 somewhere along the line?
The fact that Blizzard needs to know if you're sitting at your computer or not is a bit disturbing, however. Like a parent.
Incidents like this remind me that when you play WoW or other mmorpg's, you don't own your character, despite the often thousand of man-hours people put into them. It seems to me that if there was a similar real-world analogue, the account holder would be able to get some sort of redress to his losses in a court of law, or at least reinstatement. In these virtual worlds, the game company is able to rule by diktat and is able to twist the TOS to suit their needs. Indeed, they can change the TOS at will and if you don't agree to the new terms, then you forfeit your right to your account. Eventually, the legalities of virtual worlds will need to be addressed.
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know." -Ralph Waldo Emerson
I agree, I think this has no real tie to Linux is a bit over dramatized. It is the keyboard. If someone tried to contact the player in game and he didn't respond (listed as dnd), yet he was still playing. What are the admins supposed to think?
Any dunderhead should realize that automating levelling of skills is and SHOULD BE against the rules of an MMORPG. He got what he deserved. He was also deceptive early in the correspondence, trying to convince them he was only using his macro keyboard to change armor sets. Whether weapon skills are important to a priest or not, he gained levels in those skills with this macroing. This also has very little, if anything, to do with WINE. I think that played no part in the expulsion.
First off, I've never played WoW (nor any other MMORPG). Now, let me get this straight. The entire WINE aspect seems incidental, so we'll ignore that. Otherwise, he set up some macros on his Logitech keyboard to perform some repetitive tasks. He set those in motion, put up a 'Do Not Disturb' message, and then proceeded to go off and do something else (which admittedly was watching the movie on the other monitor). While this is not a bot program, per se, how is this not running a bot? It's unattended automated actions performed repeatedly. To the best of my knowledge, that's what a bot is. In which case, a banning is what you get.
This guy's the limit!
Search google for "wow warden client" and read a few things. In a nutshell: Blizzard most likely checked if their watchdog program was running (which should make sure that you only run "good" programs and makes sure that you're a "good" player) and didn't find it in the process list.
Result: You must've been hacking your way to 60.
Dunno, as much as I hate cheaters, but some companies go a tad bit far for my taste.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
2. But you are right, it was the Keyboard that brought this on. He was wathing movies and just casually pressing his macro key every now and then. Since he wasn't paying attention and doing the same thing over and over again, it looked like he was botting. Blizzard may have been right to ban him. Though I tend to think that since they have no clear programmable keyboard policy, they should have warned him.
3. Nonetheless, after reading his website, I have sympathy for the guy. Blizzard's communication with him really sucked. Getting sent those form letters must have been so frustrating. He asked specific questions to his accuser and they were replied to by generic form letters. He went into great detail explaining what his (somewhat unique) situation was. Even if Blizzard had replied and said "We have no problem with your running Wine, but using those programmable keyboards are against our ToS." Then that would be fine. But Blizzard was vague in their responses, which is unfair, and if they were a government (which they sort of are in this online world) for a developed, democratic, nation, this guy would have the right to at least SEE the evidence against him. It sounds like here somebody reported him as not responding to messages. They should tell him WHEN and WHERE it happened. Explain what showed up in their logs for them to conclude that he was botting.
The true problem here isn't lack of Wine support or Programmable Keyboards. The problem is that Blizzard makes decisions behind a closed curtain and doesn't tell you what evidence they used to support their decision.
From reading the linked explanation, it sounds to me like the playing really WAS essentially unattended. If a GM sent a tell while this guy was watching TV, and he didn't answer, but his character kept performing actions -- well, if it looks like a bot and quacks like a bot...
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This is why you got banned:
"At the time of the ban I had configured my keyboard to switch weapons, cast hex of weakness and renew myself, all with the press of a button."
There exists a global cooldown of one second between most gameplay affecting actions in WoW, most certainly for casting these two spells hex of weakness and renew.
Therefore the only way you could have cast both with one button, is if the keyboard is interjecting a wait period, and issueing a keystroke to the game that you are not pressing after this wait period. Now in this case, that keystroke may only be a second after you pushed the button. But the issue is that you have, at this point, just barely crossed the line into botting. It has to be drawn somewhere, and to me this is where it makes the most sense: If you allow the keyboard to issue commands while you are not interacting with the hardware in anyway, you are botting.
Not saying this to be an ass, just to let you know what most likely Blizzard took issue with.
You can get 15 minutes of fame, but you can go down in history for infamy.
This has nothing to do with Wine or Linux. If he had been using the keyboard and macros but been able to respond when asked a question it wouldn't have been a problem. The problem is this guy was not at his computer for all intent and purpose and leveling his character's skill through automation. He was close to his computer but not on it while leveling his skills. Bannable.
To me, it seems Mr Taco is still peeved that Blizzard made him change his invalid nickname, and is using this story and abusing slashdot to try and shed some more negative light on WoW.
Unfortunately, none of the major MMORPGS offer any form of reasonable communication to their users, and if you decide to disregard the ToS (by installing macros and playing the game unattended or using bad nicknames), you're likely to get stung sooner or later.
Which is why I don't play MMORPGS anymore, because they can undo all your hundreds of man hours without warning or compensation for reasons that are just or not and there'll be nothing you can do about it, until someone starts an MMORPG player's union.
'For we walk by faith, not by sight.' II Corinthians 5:7
It's called a gamesupposed to be a waste of time. If it wasn't a waste of time then it would be called "work" or "chores", because other than work, chores, eating, and sleeping, everything you do in life is a "waste of time", since it's only purpose is to entertain you.
To each his own, I don't care if you don't like MMORPGs, but you don't have to try to belittle those who do.
There should be a Player TOS that the company agrees to before selling their games. It would read like so:
17. In the event you, the player, are ever in need of technical assistance, customer support, account maintenance, or in the event you are banned from the game and your account closed, you have the right to expect that a human Blizzard employee will examine your situation and respond without the use of bots, form letters, or automated responses to make certain that your situation is fully resolved. Furthermore, while the resolution may not always be to your liking, the details will be explained in full using simple, standard language showing the logic we used to make our decisions. Once we have made every effort to explain our decisions, if you still feel that Blizzard has errored in some way, you will have one appeal effort to escalate your situation. This will mean that a team of three Blizzard employees will examine your case in full, reaching a decision. You will only be notified that either Blizzard's previous decision has been upheld, or that there is sufficient evidence to reverse the previous Blizzard decision.
... "while I was training my different weapon skills by pressing the macro keys and healing myself every now and then, I watched some movies on my TV, because fighting a level 25 healing mob doesn't require much attention if you're a level 60 priest. "
... my level 60 char is so powerful anyway!"
That is the key problem in what he did. If he used macros while watching TV, I can only guess at how long these repeated actions went on.
This isn't about Linux, not about WINE, not even about programmable Logitech keyboards! This is about: watching TV while letting your computer play the game. And... "playing" the game unattended is most certainly against most MMO agreements, and usually equalled with botting, much like Blizzard indeed told him.
I can only guess at why the Blizzard Boards once told him that it was OK to use keyboards with basic programmability, but a guess was that Blizzard didn't mean it was OK to fucking abuse them to play WoW while watching TV. Yeah, maybe that's why.
If it in his eyes "doesn't require much attention" or not is completely irrelevant, and an "excuse" stupid enough to just worsen his case. It's the very same excuse used by "true" botters. Blizzard has most likely monitored his account over some period of time and seen, "hey, this guy is doing identical actions all over". The follow up reply from Blizzard shows they were listening to his complaints and clarified the problem once again.
He then went on saying:
"I have also apoligised in advance if using a programmable keyboard violates the TOS - but your TOS does not say anything about using such keyboards."
No, but a TOS doesn't detail every individual piece of hardware or software disallowed either. That would be impossible. Instead, they try to explain what's allowed or not. Not that Logitech G15 Gaming Keyboards are disallowed when used to exploit game mechanics. Whether Logitech says they're OK or not is also irrelevant as they don't have a say in the WOW ToS anyway.
And I'm sure they are right too that using their keyboard is allowed, but do Logitech say "using our keyboards to 'play' WoW with during TV watching is in agreement with Blizzard ToS"?
So that's flaw number two in his argument, after trying to excuse himself with "but *I* thought it was OK to play the game in an unattended way, because
Come on, just because he's using WINE and this stupid keyboard doesn't excuse his actions.
"However I suspect their 3rd party detection software saw a very strange enviroinment in which WoW was running"
Nah, that's just him trying to find ways of blaming his behavior on Linux and WINE.
"that combined with the repetitive task of healing myself, switching weapons, and casting Hex of Weakness programmed in my keyboard"
Yes! That's why though! You know, stuff botters write Windows software to do Does it really matter that much how you do it? This guy need to understand what botting implies (= tools to enable game play automation) and that botting isn't allowed.
"Now to the advantage gained. What exactly did I gain? All I did is train my weapon skills. I did not gain any gold, did not gain any experience at level 60, no honor, not even any loot whatsoever."
This argument is beyond comprehension for me. He gained trained skills! That's what he gained. Gee.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
If you RTFA you'll see that he was at his keyboard, but his eyes were more focused on the TV next to his monitor than on his monitor, since the chance of a level 60 priest dying against a level 20-30 mob are next to 0. Just not giving it 100% attention should not be a reason for an immediate and permanent ban.
As I understand it, he didn't actually leave it unattended. On the contrary, he couldn't leave it unattended, he still had to be sitting there pressing the programmed keys. He just wasn't paying attention while he was doing that. You can argue not paying attention is equivalent to leaving it unattended, but a simple macro on a programmable keyboard that you can't leave unattended does not make a bot, let along a fucking one.
Anyway, the real culprit here is the game design. If Blizzard want their players to worship at the altar of the great Time Sink, then they can expect them to use things like this to make it less mind-numbingly tedious.
"Oh, I was furious. I went out and bought the Starcraft battle chest again for a new key."
sounds kind of wrong?
My take-away from this is that some people are simply addicted. If the game can be so boring, that, at times, a player watches movies while playing, what kind of entertainment is that? Sounds like classic addiction - small rewards at random times("wins" of enjoyment, I presume)keep you coming back despite the overall "loss" tedium, time-wasted, monthly fee.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
It's not like your civil rights are being violated, it's a game, a peice of entertainment. If you don't like the terms, stop giving them money and go play another. There are LOTS of great games out there. Lately I've been playing very little WoW because I have three new games I want to play, and I've got a list of about 6 more I want to try that I probably won't get to. I't snot like I'd be happy if Blizzard terminated my account, but I wouldn't be all broken up over it, I'd find another game to play (actually, I'd just play more of the other games I already have).
We don't need any fucking regulation over some game. What Blizzar dsays, goes, it's their world. If you find their rules and dynamics are fun, wonderful, pay them to be able to play. If you find them unfun or unfair, tell them to pack sand and give your money to someone else.
Oh please. Lets get some perspective. Blizzard told CmdrTaco to change a name he had been using for awhile because it violated the game rules. That's it. Blizzard has yet to start rounding up and gassing Slashdot editors.
"I can't use my nickname! It's like Auschqitz in here!"
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
Is it possible that Blizzard banned him not because his activities were violating the Terms of Service per se, but rather because he had the audacity to engage in another form of entertainment whilst he was playing the game? Blizzard was losing critical mindshare to some movie studio or television producer. Their customer might even have seen an advertisement for a rival video-game company - while he was ostensibly using their service. The horror!
I think your only legitimate statement is that Logitech claims the keyboard is useable for WoW. Other than that, using macros is a definite nono.
Botting is not defined by "botting software." Its defined by Blizzard. In Eve-online, they don't have a 'bot' ban. They ban you if you are using macros. Maybe Blizzard should upgrade their terminology to make it clearer. If you were a younger person I might accept that you had no idea you would get banned. If you never gamed before I might expect you may think a legalistic position would work. But as a network engineer, and someone that has probably gamed before you should know better. You know there is neither judge nor jury. You know legitimate users get banned all the time. Knowing that you should have known the keyboard would be an issue.
I hope they let you back in. You seem like an honest person based on how much info you told them. My mom also taught me to tell the truth. The world really doesen't care...
From TFA: This is not possible to achieve using macros or LUA addons because it is, as many other people have said, botting. If the macro required 3 key presses (1 per action) then it could have been achieved with an in-game macro. I'm afraid the guy is SOL.
Just don't create a file called -rf.
I have one of those Logitec G15 keyboards, as well as a Belkin Nostromo N52 (Which I no longer use). I am very concerned that Blizzard considers them a bannable offense. Only, they apparently don't. But they do. But...
Blizzard is infamous for refusing to give details about exactly WHAT you did wrong when they ban you. As you can see in the emails. "We looked, you're guilty." "of what?" "Being banned." "For?" "Being guilty". "Of?" "Being Banned." "Well, can you review it?" "Ok. You're still guilty." "Of what??" "Of Being Banned." "For..."
They're unfortunately just asking for a lawsuit in this matter, but... I guess 6 million customers paying $15 a month makes one feel they can get away with anything.
I suggest you call their headquarters directly. They will tell you to email them instead. Refuse. Be a huge pain in the ass, and don't accept being told to go away. They *are* accountable for disabling your account. Fortunately you are in Europe where their EULA holds MUCH less weight than in the US -- they can't write away your consumer rights, so fight for them!
The reason it was "mind-numbingly tedious" is because it was unnecessary. He was spamming attack commands to level up weapon skills of weapons he doesn't use. He could easily level up weapon skills against mobs that drop gold and items instead, but he chose to go the automated bot route. I have leveled up weapon skills numerous times without being identified as a bot, because I was actually playing the game and not just pressing buttons with my right hand while I watched a movie.
I think permaban is a little extreme with no warning, but he was definetly using automated processes to fight mobs. You can blame this on the fact that "the game is boring", but I would argue that it is simply his chosen way to play that made it boring.
The game itself allows you to create macros in game through the /m command and then in game you can assign a key to the macro button you just created. Maybe I'm being overly simple here, but to me that would mean that Blizzard does in fact not only allow macros but also assists the player in setting them up?
News Reporters Make Tasty Polar Bear Treats!
I can't believe the number of assholes on this thread who are so quick to blame the poor guy who got a permanent ban for no logical cause.
You don't play WoW. WoW players know that GMs message ppl to detect if they are botting. No response is conviction. Your character gets teleported to GM island and the account gets a ban. After the 3rd ban (increasing duration), yur permbanned. Plz stop talking.
Ask yourself, why he bothers to mention WINE, Linux, or fails to mention what happened before the letters. This guy is not a victim and he deserves what he got. He made a nice attempt at PR tho.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
Fasterfox and programs like it that prefetch are a bitch on smaller sites. There's nothing like a program fetching every damn link on a page at once to throw off reporting and monitoring. (And yes I know about the X-moz: prefetch header. In fact at work I send 'Forbidden' responses via Apache when that header comes across and filter them to another log file. No point in sucking down CPU for dynamic pages that won't be used.) At least Fasterfox is one of the more behaved ones and supposedly obeys robots.txt. So maybe I just have a problem with the nasties out there. If it was up to me, evil programs like it would burn in hell, or at least be forced to obey robots.txt all the time.
So someone reports him as botting, gm checks it out, gm get's automated reply saying he's not at the computer while the character continues to attack a mob, he get's banned, end of story.
Regardless of what he was actually doing, he told a blizzard gm through his dnd message, that he was away from is machine, aka that he was botting.
Never mind the fact that whether or not he is violating a specific rule of the tos or not, he is clearly violating the spirit in which that rule was made.
If players feel compelled to bot their way through tedium, then it says a lot more about the gameplay (or lack thereof) within WoW than it does about the players. Although, admittedly, they should be a lot more picky about what they choose to waste their time with. (I'm become bored quickly, so MMOs are about as fun as watching paint dry on the wall.) Anyway I don't see anything wrong with hitting macro keys every now and then. At least he's doing *something*, and not just having it run full auto without having to watch.
Carefully examine your case. Consider the TOS and AUP.
;)
:) It helps if you do high volume on it. I do about $20k/yr on my credit card {paying off as I go}, and they do not play around with me.)
Then, if you really honestly think you have a case, use your credit card's chargeback ability as a bludgeon. If you really think you have a case that you can make, then they'll start talking back if you can convince the credit card company to take your side.
(Keep in mind that by selling you the software, they *offered* to provide you with continuing service at a certain price. Because RPGs are a character building exercise for some people, that "future service" promise may be considered critical to the original purchase -- a sort of contract if you will. Furthermore, they did not give you a reasonable opportunity for dialog to resolve this issue independant of the credit card company {something the CC company wants} because they communicated with you almost exclusively through the form letters, failing to provide you with any meaningful communication.)
I don't know how well it will hold up, but getting the credit card company on your side is critical for you. You know how Blizzard can tell you to stuff it, do what it wants, and start ignoring you? Yeah, the credit card company can and will do the same thing to Blizzard -- if you can get them on your side. You're going to have to come up with justification (maybe like mine above) that holds water for charging back to day one. Mine may not hold up, so consider it carefully. But, you can expect someone at Blizzard will start talking if you can convince the credit card company that $200 worth of chargeback is justified.
Assuming you do get the CC company on your side, even if Blizzard doesn't give you what you want... well, you've got your $200 back
(You may have to threaten to cancel the card to get what you want, btw.
The bottom line is, he was skilling up weapons unattended. He attempts to justify this numerous times as if this is not a big deal but the fact remains that this is a clear violation of the TOS.
He agreed to the TOS, broke it, and tried to debate how it applies to him. He should just take responsibility and buy another account. He is not a victim.
After reading his lists, it seems it's most likley a combination of things, the repeated equal-spaced timed events from the keyboard, in combination with the lack of responsiveness while he was watching movies and yet continuing to preform actions, and the suspicious program list, probably all contributed to them writing him off as a bot.
Personally I think it's also a fault with the way WoW works, if you can can gain skills by doing trivial tasks repeatidly, the system is broken.. You learn a damn sight more about anything by pushing at the limits of what you can do, the game should reflect that.
Gold farming's harder to overcome, but coding the game to encourage skill farming?!?!
So Blizzard allows you to script your own Macros through the console, but if you Macro through a keyboard that is botting? Okay then.
And again, it's not as simple as "don't like their rules, don't play". In order to know whether you like the rules, you have to read them and understand them as intended by those who will be enforcing them. That's not simple, particularly when the rules are often dependent on terms not defined, withheld conditions, or not even listed anywhere. And even if someone doesn't like the rules, why exactly shouldn't they play? They may still feel the merits of the game outweighs the rules they don't like.
But perhaps an actual example would help - since you think it's so simple, could you find the exact rule broken in this case and post it here?
I clearly don't think the fellow deserved a ban here. However, I know exactly why he did. Undoubtedly someone ran across him and filed a petition. Then a good GM sent the guy a tell while he was watching his movie leaving his character "unattended" and just pressed buttons. That is really all it takes. If a GM sends you a message in game and you are not responding yet are still taking action in the game you will get the boot. I have reported botters before farming rep in AV. And to be honest if I was a lvl 28 in thousandneedles and some guy appeared to be afk while fighting I would probably report it.
Its shitty but you have to pay attention to the game at least enough to respond to Bliz tells.
Now, educate me on how exactly you design the game 'properly' so that some external hardware device cannot mimic human keyboard commands?
Maybe make a game that actually requires brain activity to succeed? We're not talking about a chess playing super computer here, or some cutting edge artificial intelligence. This game is exploitable by simple keyboard macros, which shows that it is far too simplistic. It rewards repetitive behaviour, and as a result, suffers from this sort of exploitation.