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UK Demands Sourcecode for Strike Fighters
An anonymous reader writes ""The UK has warned America that it will cancel its £12bn order for the Joint Strike Fighter if the US does not hand over full access to the computer software code that controls the jets"
Lord Drayson, minister for defense procurement, told the The Daily Telegraph that the planes were useless without control of the software as they could effectively be "switched off" by the Americans without warning."
Well, that's completely reasonable (note the sarcasm). It's insane to believe that we're even trying to withhold the code. I mean, would you buy a tv from a neighbor if they kept the remote? Chances are they'd hit the mute halfway through a Farscape rerun.
If there was a backdoor in the flight control software, I doubt it would help the UK if we gave them the source code because the backdoor would almost certainly be hidden very well. In fact, the backdoor could be in the compiler in which case they would not find anything in the source code. And they can't recompile the sourcecode with their own compiler because they would have to retest everything.
Nice to see how much confidence we inspire in our closest allies.
Small wonder our enemies don't trust us.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
How do you know? Is it impossible to believe that the US government might want a safety net for modern weapons that deactivates them if they don't receive a signal targeted to the plane's serial number every hour while in flight, with said signal broadcast by satellites with worldwide coverage....GPS perhaps?
I'm a US citizen but not particularly a fan of how our government does business, but if I was in charge of hardware with such potential damage in the wrong hands, I'd insist on some sort of controls like that, even on what stays under US control. What if one of those nutjobs Americans who fought alongside the Taliban instead enlisted and become a pilot, and then flew off course on a mission in the Middle East and handed the plane over to Al Qaeda? Even if it needed special codes to make the weapons work the plane itself would be a pretty dandy weapon flying at Mach 3 into a nuclear aircraft carrier or Saudi oil refinery.
Probably because the US has an aggressive R&D program that routinely produces superior combat aircraft systems. In the case of Australia specifically, they also get access (being old steady allies) to really fancy avionics and electronics packages which have no peer in the world of weaponry. The airframes and powerplants are extremely good too.
The airframe and powerplant is only modestly important in modern combat aircraft, though the US is very good at this type of design. The real selling point to countries like Australia is that they get more advanced versions of the software, electronics, and sensors -- the parts responsible for lethality and survivability to a very large extent -- which are one of the real strengths of US military R&D. The US will sell stripped down fighter jets to just about anyone, but they are very selective about the avionics as that is where the real capability lies in modern combat aviation. JSF is being sold with some very slick capabilities built-in; not quite F-22 level, but pretty close in many respects. Nobody else is selling anything comparable, and the closest competitor is the Eurofighter.
Australia buys US aircraft because the US is willing to sell it very advanced avionics and electronics for those aircraft. The US has no competitor at the very high-end of the quality/effectiveness market, which for military purposes is pretty important, particularly if you are a non-populous country like Australia that cannot rely on quantity to make up the difference.
Having all the source code, and being able to trust it, is only one facet of what is needed. Unless you can trust the entire tool chain, all the code embodied in silicon, etc., you can not fully trust the system. This brings up an interesting issue. Systems are geting so complex, there is simply not enough time to audit them to build real trust.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
absolutely sane thing to ask for
Its a weapon of war, so if your going to use it when it counts, and not just a few flybys at an air show, then your going to be at war. Who knows what state of war that will be, it could be a few sorties to bomb a wedding party or two, or it could be full nuclear MAD, lines of communication could be down, satellites down etc etc...
If you can't update an modify the software when you need it, those planes could be as good as craters in the runway.
You can take an example from the commercial world - I worked for startups which had to put their source code in escrow as part of pilot agreements with Fortune-100 companies.
So I don't think it's unreasonable or even extra-ordinary for the Brits to want the source too. Just prudent.
I'm sure they'll get around to developing a stealthy aircraft one of these days. And when they do, it'll be able to land on a dirt strip w/gear up not destroy itself.
The F-35 just got downrated in it's stealth capabilities & now countries (UK, Aussies and others) are saying "WTF, why should we buy that when it can't even compete with the Sukhoi Flankers.
Here's the article I read a few days ago It's on the end of page 1 & beginning of page 2 that they explain why exactly the JSF is going to suck.
Actually, everyone and their cousin is worried about the sole engine design for the new F-22 and F-35. The military types think it'd be a disaster if Pratt & Whitney is the only company that sells a suitable engine. GE & Rolls Royce have a joint program to design an alternate turbojet and they're lobbying hard to maintain their funding.
So, I'm sorry to directly contradict you, but the powerplant is absolutely critical. So critical, that the DoD is willing to pump billions into making sure there is a completely separate engine design that can be used. Not to mention that if you read the linked articles above, the F35 got downrated because the airframe design is less stealthy when you're looking up the exhaust.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
"The days of fighters swooping around locked in a dog-fight-to-the-death are long gone. Anyone who attempts to engage the US ariforce in that type of combat will survive just long enough to realize just how stupid they really are. "
Isn't it funny that the only people who realize this are Al Quada? Osama is waging a long term war of attrition by making america spend as much money as possible while spending very little on his part (he has publicly said this is his strategy). Osama is waging a long term war like the one he waged in Afghanistan against russia.
I guess the whole idea of missilies, fighter jets etc have become moot hasn't it. The next bomb that explodes in the US will not come from a missile or a fighter jet. It will simply be in the trunk of a car or planted in the basement of an important building.
evil is as evil does
Houses burn all the time, lots of houses burned down in my city, two in my neighborhood alone.
If I lived in a country in which no house had ever burned down since it's founding then I would not buy fire insurance.
So tell me, who is going to be attacking Australia? Who is going to attack them from the air so that the aussies break out their new shiny fighter jets and smite them. The kiwis? the philipinas? the south koreans? the balinese? The fighting fijians?
evil is as evil does
The F-35 was designed from inception as an exportable combat aircraft. It is the replacement for the F16/F18, does not have all the features and capabilities of the F-22, and is intended to be "strippable". On the other hand, it is a lot cheaper than the F-22. It can properly be placed somewhere in between Cold War era combat jets (F14/F15/F16/F18) and the current state-of-the-art (F22).
As for the Russians, they can produce good airframes and decent powerplants, but they lack sophistication in the high-end electronics/software/sensors that pretty much make or break a combat aircraft today. The Russians are not producing anything better than western Europe these days, and are slipping further behind because they cannot afford to spend the kind of money required to keep up. A Sukhoi Flanker would be dead right around the time it even knew it was being engaged. The only comparable jet to the F-35 is the Eurofighter platform, though the capability mix is different.
While I understand why the F-35 was developed, it is kind of an ugly and unremarkable jet. It is still very capable, particularly with the smashing avionics/software the US can put in the thing, but was never designed to be the "ultimate" anything. Of course, the F16 has a similar history but turned out to be an extremely successful combat aircraft.
My guess is, that isn't the marketing line Lockheed Martin, Boeing and BAE Systems are going for right now.
These big deals are as much to do with employment as they are, defence.
If this were really happening, what would you think?
UK follows US like a dog follows its master since so long than they just deserve it. Perhaps one day they will realize that US is only playing its own game and uses others countries when needed.
Look at what happens with India, US is ready to give up Nuclear know hows to counterbalance China increasing power. Very good move indeed to avoid Nuke proliferation! And in few years they will screw Indians as well when they will realize they are also a very fast growing economic threat...
What constantly amazes me is. given the way the US constantly screws its allies is that a) it still has any and b) the UK still has the fantasy that we have a "special relationship" with the US: the only special relationship we have is the one where we bend over and drop our trousers on demand.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
Look at a map for God's sake. Do you notice a large archipelago just over a narrow strait? A nation with 10 times the population of Australia that has invaded neighbours several times in my memory. They could ship troops over by the million without a strong air and naval capacity to stop them. If Muslim fundamentalists came into power it could get very hostile overnight, considering our PM has sent out trops into Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention putting tropps in East Timor when it seceded from Indonesia (that was the right thing to do, though it pissed off the Indonesians).
You probably forgot to mention that the resources (Marshall Plan) could only be spend in the USA. So there was a big benifit for the US economy aswell.
Support Eachother, Copy Dutch Property!
"there is only one special relationship in Washington, and that is with Israel" - one of Blair's advisers as quoted in "The Accidental American"
Oh please. Do we even need to remind people that the US took their sweet time in getting to the wars? (Quick test: ask the average American when WWI and WWII started, and watch a shocking number of them get it wrong because they date it from when the US got involved.)
Especially WWII. The UK (along with other members of the empire like Australia and New Zealand) pretty much held off the opposing forces singlehanded until they were at breaking point before the US finally deigned to get involved. Because they'd been going it alone for the last several years, England was broke by then and, yes, desperately needed an infusion of funds.
But it was by no means a one way street. Example: one of the conditions from the US was that England had to turn over all the enriched nuclear material they'd been generating in their own plants, so that the US was now the only one with sufficient quantities to build more bombs.
Please don't cheapen the massive sacrifices made in terms of lives lost by England, Australia, and New Zealand in both world wars. It's not a great stretch to say that those countries did much more than their fair share in the first half of the 20th century to ensure a world in which all free nations could prosper, and that they were the leading defenders of freedom at those times. We still remember Gallipolli...