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Internet Explorer Not Dead Yet
turnitover writes "The future's not all Firefox, Deer Park and Camino, insists Microsoft. At its Mix '06 conference in Las Vegas, reports Microsoft Watch, company execs insisted that there's a bright future for IE. They not only distributed a 'layout-complete' build of IE 7.0, but offered hints about what the new version of the browser geeks love to disdain (yes, it will include ActiveX) will include. Also shown: tools to test IE compatibility. But with what? Standards or IE 6?"
Also shown: tools to test IE compatibility. But with what? Standards or IE 6?
Right.
"See? It it renders these pages, full of our own standards, the W3c be damned. What's not to like?"
Wait, wait.. OK, never mind. I thought I was going to be whelmed by word of IE 7.0, not overwhelmed mind you, but only whelmed. But the feeling passed, I'm OK now. Really.
Honestly, I use Firefox for almost everything simply because I prefer the way it behaves, meaning, it behaves.
Mar. 17, 2006, 50th anniversary of Fred Allen's passing. "As the chinese teapot said to the auctioneer's hammer, I'm going-going-gone!"
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
When Microsoft IE can pass the ACID 2.0 Test come back to me.
Sincerely,
Firefox Fan
Translation: We're working on ways of tying this thing even further into our operating system than before.
This guy's the limit!
I can't WAIT to watch the objective analysis that this thread will surely contain.
"Its a trick. Get an axe."
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
But it's certainly beginning to smell like it is!
I'm sure FreeBSD is saying the same thing...
Honda claims next year's Hondas will be the best cars ever, Magnavox claims to produce the greatest ever stereo system, and Goya state that their upcoming batch of red kidney beans are going to be the absolute mind-blowingly best batch of red kidney beans ever set upon by human sensory organs.
Why is it news when a company advertises its own products?
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
The decision was cheered as "guaranteed work for the next decade" by computer security experts worldwide.
My sig is too lon
I have not heard it reported anywhere, but note that Microsoft will be hosting an "IE7 Compat Lab" at Mix '06, where developers can test their applications for compatibility with the latest IE test builds. As Microsoft itself has acknowledged, there could be app-compatibility hiccups with IE 7.0.
I have read that Microsoft acknowleding on the Mix '06 Web site, "reduced need to hack around quirks in older browsers, however, means that existing pages written specifically for older browsers may render differently in IE7. In addition, IE7 includes a number of new security features which may have impact on binary extensions such as toolbars, browser helper objects, and ActiveX controls."
I don't know about a bright future, but it's not going away any time soon. I'm not sure how massive a screw-up it would take for IE to lose its largest customer base - the people who can't be bothered to look for anything else or don't know anything else exists.
As long as the Gecko crowd and Opera manage to hold on to enough marketshare to force web developers to use REAL standards instead of Microsoft's so that my browser of choice works, I'll be content.
.. Or is it pinin' for the fjords? /obvious
...has Netcraft confirmed this?
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
The thing is when you're a company like Microsoft and you've got this huge, unstoppable cash flow: you never really have to pay for your mistakes. Which makes it hard for you to stop making them. I hate to be the one to point this out, but Google has the same problem!
Der article stated that a stand-alone will be available for Windows XP SP2 also.
I just can't imagine installing IE7 on my machine except if I REALLY have to to verify that my websites load and operate with it. And that would be really sad.
it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
Isn't IE still 90% of the market share? where did this subject line come from?
/. was completely non biased and objective
Sure I wish it was dead just like everyone else, but last I checked my grandmother wasn't going to download firefox so she can receive RSS feeds and use tabbed browsing...
what a bias misleading subject...
i thought
muahahahahahahaha
I still find that IE is faster than FireFox and hope that they can continue to work out the bugs... Wow, am I really saying that? I've tried FireFox and although I am a fan of the browser, I still find that I use IE more.
[%] Cingular Ringtones
FTA "reduced need to hack around quirks in older browsers, however, means that existing pages written specifically for older browsers may render differently in IE7. In addition, IE7 includes a number of new security features which may have impact on binary extensions such as toolbars, browser helper objects, and ActiveX controls."
I'm still scratching my head over this. From what I think this says, it means that the pages that relied on the MS specific stuff for IE5x and 6 won't look the same when viewed with IE7. Which doesn't say anything about following standards, or comparing it to how the page looks using FireFox and Opera. And, the new "security measures" will screw up all the toolbars, objects, and ActiveX that they've encouraged web developers to use. Gee, wasn't this why I switched to FireFox in the first place?
As long as they have an iron grip on the desktop OS, and insist on intertwining it into their OS, of course it has a "bright future." It doesn't mean that it's going to be any more secure (although hope reigns eternal), or be compliant with standards. I'm still trying to work out what the hell they meant.
Sure IE isn't dead yet but by not working with standards, by being overly invasive, by being integrated into the OS and several other mistakes that they REFUSE to correct, they are doing their best to kill it. It's like they are doing there best to ignore the public outcry while cramming something else down there throats.
Sure Joe Average user doesn't care about these things (at least not directly) but he does care about the indirect problems that these things incur. All he knows is that with Firefox, he doesn't get POPUPS, it lets him modify it to what he wants it to look and act like and it's simple easy and fun to use. Most users completely forget about IE until another applications forces them to open it and asks if they want it to be their default browser.
Now even universities, schools and businesses are installing Firefox and doing their best to remove all pointers to IE due to security risks. And once the end user becomes familiar with the brwser at work or school, they will be more likely to download it and install it at home.
There is a reason why some sites show Firefox usage as high as 30%; hell even internally at Microsoft, 8-11% of people use a Mozilla based browser (based on stats from exclusive third party vendors to Microsoft).
In this case, Microsoft is their own worst enemy and needs to modify their business strategy or else continue to lose market share in the browser.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
I don't think the parent post is flamebait, though I think he's missing something.
What you're talking about is what takes place between F/OSS projects working on the same thing; each takes ideas from the others while coming up with its own ideas, which may be copied.
Sometimes it happens in battles between commercial products, but often each starts implementing things differently for the sole purpose of breaking compatibility with the other. The result is documents, pages, et cetera that will only work with one company's product. There's no progress there.
There's two ways to get Vista into the hands of schucks:
Vista will be out there, but keep in mind, there's a lot of users still dorking along on Win 95, Win 98, ME, NT, 2000, etc. and they're in no hurry to switch. Why pay an a Technology Tax every few years?
* The term Upgrade is used figuratively.
** Also f__king the market.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
IE: I'm not dead yet Firefox: Well you will be soon enough IE: I feel happy, I feel.... *WHACK* Firefox: Thank you very much, see you thursday
[Insert Witty Sig Here]
Does it run on Linux?
*ducks*
Dont' worry, it'll be stone dead in a minute. /source/vista/ie7/*
$ rm -rf
But seriously...
User: I wish to make a complaint!
Ballmer: (hurriedly) Sorry, we're about to ship Vista.
User: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this web browser, what came bundled not five years ago from this very operating system.
Ballmer: Oh yes, IE, ah, version 6. What's, ah... W-what's wrong with it?
User: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. It's dead, that's what's wrong with it.
Ballmer: No, no, It's ah... it's undergoing a security upgrade.
User: Look, matey, I know a dead browser when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
Ballmer: No no, i-it's not dead, it's... getting its user interface upgraded!
User: User interface?
Ballmer: Y-yeah, the UI. Upgradin'. Remarkable browser, IE, isn't it, eh? Beautiful layouts!
User: The layout-complete build don't enter into it. It's stone dead!
Ballmer: Nononono, no, no! 'E's bein' upgraded!
User: All right then, if he's bein' upgraded, I'll run 'im!
(starts typing)
IEXPLORE.EXE! C:\MYDOCU~1\HELLO.JPG
Looky looky looky! Happily rendering the Goatse Guy! Hey, IE, I've got lots of lovely RAM for you if you're running, Mr. Internet Explorer!)
(pounds keyboard)
Ballmer: There, the page refreshed!
User: No, he didn't, that was you clicking reload!
Ballmer: I never!!
User: Yes, you did!
Ballmer: I never, never....
(pounding Ctrl-Alt-Del on the keyboard again)
User: HELLO, WORLD! HELLO TASK MANAGER! PLEASE WAKE UP!
Now that's what I call a dead browser.
Ballmer: No, no.... No, it's just running a signed ActiveX Control in the background.
User: A ACTIVEX CONTROL!?!?
Ballmer: Yeah! You invoked an ActiveX control, just as it was wakin' up! Believe me, IE runs those easily, major!
User: Look my lad, I've had just about enough of this. That browser is definitely deceased, and when I booted its PC up after buyin' it not half an hour ago, you assured me that the PC's total lack of computational power was due to it being tired and shagged out after a prolonged virus scan.
Ballmer: Well, he's... it's, ah... probably needin' activation and authorization with Windows Genuine Advantage.
User: WINDOWS Genuine ADVANTAGE?!? What kind of talk is that? Look, why did the OS crash flat on its back the moment I plugged it into the router?
Ballmer: The Norwegian Bluescreen prefers kippin' on its back! Remarkable UI, though, isn't it, guv, eh? Lovely layout-complete screenshots!
User: (coldly) Look, I took the liberty of examining that browser cache when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that the PC had anything to run on its hard drive in the first place was that it had been bundled in there along with the spyware and the DRM.
Ballmer: Well, of course it has DRM there! If I hadn't bundled that browser and nailed everything down with DRM, all the content would have nuzzled up to those wires at the back, bent 'em apart with its little bits, and VOOM!
User: "VOOM?" Look matey, this browser wouldn't "voom" if you put four thousand kilobytes of W3C standards through it! It's bleedin' demised!
Ballmer: It's not! I-It's just authenticating!
User: It's not authenticatin,' it's passed on! This browser is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! This is a late software release! It's a stiff! Bereft of RAM, it rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed it to the system with DRM and your monopoly it'd be pushing up the daisies! Its spawned processes are of interest only to historians! It's hopped the twig! It's shuffled off this mortal coil! It's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible! This.... is an INACTIVE X!
Ballmer: Well, I'd better upgrade it, then.
(I'll stop it now. It's silly.)
The summary implies that the "right" engineering decision would be to eliminate ActiveX. This is complete bullshit.
ActiveX is a mechanism that allows compiled code delivered via the web to run on the client. This feature is an absolute must-have for many corporate environments.
Was Microsoft's ActiveX security framework insufficient? Absolutely. Were their implementation buggy? Yes. Were their security defaults too lax? Certainly. But with a feature as important to your customer base as this, the right solution isn't to cut the feature. It's to fix the problems.
Er, certainly a few companies have inhouse ActiveX applications, and that's fine. I imagine your company is among them, or you wouldn't be making this post. But get a little perspective: those people represent a tiny fraction of the market.
*How very 1984'ish.
Uh huh, right. The grandparent "Pantero Blanco" controls a vast world-controlling network of agents, and he will soon deploy black helicopters to your house for daring to dispute his assessment of the best web browser.
Right, its Opera.
ducks
Chances are any disscution on Slashdot will degrade into a flamewar about ID/Christianity within 14 posts.
My wife is already sold on a MacBook (she's waiting for the design to mature a little, we've been burned before buying the first generation of a product). I'm happily running Windows 2000 and Ubuntu and they suit my needs just fine. In fact Windows 2000 suits all my needs right now, however I am trying to get used to Ubuntu just for fun.
Firefox interface looking ancient? What would you replace it with, FisherPrice-looking crap? Ugly blue gradients like Office and now OO.o? Apple-style glass effects? Why is it that every time Microsoft or Apple comes out with an ugly new look people think sensible designs are outdated? Count me out! I'd rather have FF look like Motif than Office or the current Netscape version!
I'm responsible for several installs of firefox around here after I accidently demo'd my app with firefox and they wondered why it looked different in IE. I'm also the IT guy, so no problem there.
Man, you really need that seminar!
Or the people who have a large investment in ActiveX, and other IE technologies.
I developed a solution in the late 90s that used ActiveX, and it was very good for the time. I'd use a different technology if I were to do it again.
In any case, the number of firms with solutions like that is absolutely miniscule. On the public internet ActiveX is close to non-existant, and in corporations it is certainly a rarity. That accounts for a tiny fraction of the users who use IE.
The sad truth is that most users stick with IE simply because it's there and it's easy (which normally qualifies as laziness), and even if it were a decade behind it would still see prevalent use. What we really need is a jazzy, cool looking Firefox (or Opera) by default, and installation by computer vendors. Corporation IT departments need to get off their asses and figure out how to do their jobs, and at least seriously consider alternatives to IE.
I didn't use the search box either until I learned the keyboard shortcut for it (Ctrl-K). Since then, I use it constantly.
Once it's required (as in certain things won't run unless I have Vista or my hardware dies and the only new hardware needs Vista) then it'll be a full transition to Linux.
What happens in 2015, once neither high-speed ISP in your geographic area works with anything older than Vista or any Linux kernel that isn't the official unmodified kernel of a major commercial Linux distribution? Would you move house to escape Trusted Network Connect?
how about this one :
http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Then let's get the mob together, light some torches, march up to the castle, and pound a stake through its fucking heart. That should do it.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
Uh, for a computer program to pass any QA test it needs to produce output *exactly* as expected. This isn't some University exam, it's a collection of 1's and 0's. Either it renders the page as it's supposed to (in this case handling invalid input correctly) or it doesn't.
Or, put another way by means of a Simpson's quote:
"Come on, do they give a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry"?
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
On the public internet ActiveX is close to non-existant
This proves that you don't understand what ActiveX really is. Flash in IE? ActiveX. Java in IE? ActiveX. ActiveX is nothing more than IE's plug-in system, so to say that it's "close to non-existent" on the public Internet is completely fallacious.
Just a minute... Let me go get my other gun.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
That would take several rounds each of silver bullets, wooden stakes, holy water vials, and several pounds of garlic. Not to mention black candles, a goat sacrifice, and a prayer to Cthulhu not to send IE back from the void after we dispatched it.
Only on Slashdot will you hear it implied that a product with 65% marketshare might be "dead."