Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Joins OpenDocument Alliance
Jim writes "Microsoft has joined a committee that has a key role in the ratification of OpenDocument as an international standard, leading to accusations that it intends to sabotage the process. Microsoft has denied this accusation, claiming that the only reason why Microsoft employee Jim Thatcher has joined the group was to get involved in the ISO standardisation of its own file format." From the article: "'There sits Microsoft, waiting, like a spider,' wrote Jones, in a posting on her site. 'I am imagining ODF plodding along, with Microsoft asking questions, fine-combing through the comments, did you mean this or that?, getting bogged down in minutia until, lo and behold, either Microsoft's XML makes it as an ISO standard first, or they arrive neck and neck.'" More information here on a subject we touched on in a recent Slashback.
update a few readers have asked for the clarification
that MSFT has not joined ODF, but rather the "INCITS/V1
Technical Committee"
I don't know if Microsoft's motivation is sabotage by joining ODF, but from the article, an eerily familiar description:
(BTW, isn't there a Donovan song about Pamela Jones?)Ahem, back to the topic... I worked on a group from our company and Microsoft on an e-commerce soon-to-be-standard (related to xml), and Microsoft's attitude, performance, and etiquette was embarrassing, annoying, and unprofessional. Aside from the unsurprising Microsoft employees' strong-arming the agenda, it was clear they had no affinity or appetite for any of our ideas. It was also equally clear that their intent was the final result would be their way or the highway.
Also, having worked briefly at Microsoft, the description resonates with the "triage" meetings at Microsoft -- at the time, the hot topic was IBM's MCA bus architecture, and ideas to make sure it would not be important in the emerging PC technology.
Superficially, it may be a good thing having Microsoft join ODF, but I wouldn't let them bring in or take out any pencils, paper, or recording devices of any kind of the meetings. Just my hunch, I don't trust them.
Why did I hear the Imperial March when I read this story? Now MSFT will try to strong-arm the alliance into recognizing that MSWord is the only way.
--sig fault--
Could you PLEASE fix the headline?! Microsoft most definitely DID NOT JOIN the OpenDocument Alliance. ODA is the group who is trying to push for ODF adoption. Microsoft can join if they want, but they don't want.
They joined the INCITS/V1 Technical Committee. They're not even remotely the same thing and don't even look remotely similar (ODA vs INCITS). Way to go on the asinine headline Zonk.
I can't imagine why anyone would think that Microsoft would sabotage this project. After all, their past statements clearly show that they fully support it.
This guy's the limit!
I really can't see Microsoft ever sharing the 'office' market, using universal formats, with any other company but MS.
.doc, in my business experience, for sharing documents intercompany. .xls for the forseeable future with spreadsheets though.
PDF is more standard than
We're stuck with
I'm not sure if it matters if the MS format becomes an ISO first or at the same time. The lines are already drawn. Every software group that produces word processing documents seems to either be using or at least supporting ODF. Who supports Microsoft's format aside from Microsoft? No one right now, and those who do support it will follow microsoft no matter what the outcome of all of this is anyway.
If anything I'd say they put him there to observe the progression more than anything else.
Or maybe I forgot my tinfoil hat today.
FTA: ""In order for Jim to participate in the future Open XML File Format work he needs to have standing in JTC1 SC 34 [a committee that mirrors INCITS/V1] which mandates participation over time. His presence in this group will have no impact upon the voting process for the ODF standard. Just as we have a seat on the board of OASIS and have not participated in the ODF process there, we will not participate in the JTC1 process," said Jason Matusow, Microsoft's director of standards affairs, in a statement." (emphasis mine)
Anyone have any info on whether MS has truly laid off with OASIS and the ODF process there? Not to say that non-interference there means non-interference with Open XML, but it's a start.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Microsoft managed to stall OpenGL 2.0 and other improvements for the longest time by claiming potential patent infringements with its vertex and pixel shader technologies. As a result OpenGL stalled for some time. Microsoft has since left the OpenGL ARB (Architecture Review Board) after doing the damage it needed to do. Deja vu.
ISO certification or not, true open standards are the wave of the future. Too many companies and people have gotten burned by vendor lock too many times, to the point where the movement toward open standards and open source here in Taxachusetts has attracted mainstream press, not just technical journalists. Perhaps ODF won't gain steam quite as quickly if it became an ISO-certified standard immediately, but with states' and commonwealths' accepting ODF as the document exchange and archival solution, it will quickly filter down to education, state vendors (who want to keep their contracts) and law offices, and from there trickle down to everyone else. Small companies will quickly learn "Oh, I DON'T have to plunk down $450 for Microsoft Office any more? Where do I get this OpenOffice?"
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
If MS doesn't join the alliance, they're seen as factious and self-serving.
If MS joins the alliance, they're seen as sneaky, underhanded, factious and self-serving.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
They intentionally pervert the standards. See Kerberos as an example. They have to know what the standards are to screw things up so royally.
Infuriate left and right
This is just a badass joke, isn't it?
Guys: I am a member of the group that Microsoft joined, JTC1 SC34. This is a very broad group that encompasses SGML, XML, HyTime, topic maps, Font Interchange and ODF. As per Microsoft's claim, it would probably include Microsoft's formats when they show up at ISO.
http://www.jtc1sc34.org/#scope
The Slashdot heading is VERY incorrect and biased against Microsoft.
We damn Microsoft if they do, and damn them if they don't.
If Microsoft really wanted to support ODF, they could stop screwing around and start doing their job: programming! I want MS Word to natively support the ODF.
Does this technical committee require full patent disclosure by all members? If so, might this help ODF by forcing Microsoft to state now if they have any patent claims on anything that makes it into the final standard?
I'd hate to see Microsoft secretly steer the committee towards something that, five years later, they would shut down as a patent violation. It wouldn't be the first time this has happened *cough*Rambus*cough*.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
To badly paraphase Forest Gump, "Damnable is as damnable does". If Microsoft is either quiet or makes positive contributions to the ODF standard, more power to them and maybe they will become a good corporate citizen.
But if history is any guide, they will do everything in their power to beat the standard into the ground and anyone who supports it. They will do everything from dirty tricks (remember DRDOS?) to patent litigation (OpenGL), just ignore your patent (Stacker), to "growing the polluted environment" (Java) to "cutting off the air supply" (Netscape) to making incompatible versions (Kerberos, CHAP, DNS, TCP) to "put the competition on a treadmill" (everyone) to FUD (Linux and GPL are a cancer).
Atleast I don't think so. I mean, you cant get more original than Microsoft Joins OpenDocument Alliance, can you?
but seriously, what is the issue in whose format is the standard, as long as it is standard? The standard needs to be something easily defined, can be adhered to without loss in functionality and is extensible. If MS's XML satisfies that, good enough..just make sure balmer guy does not sabotage that once it becomes the standard
Can't join CSV eh? $ ruby -e 'p [1,2,3,4].join(",")' :-P
We damn Microsoft if they do, and damn them if they don't.
Actually, we damn Microsoft for their general attitude about standards bodies. The company has a deserved reputation for ignoring standards when it helps them, and subverting standards when they can't ignore them. Microsoft has engendered ill will through past behavior, and it takes more than an announcement that they are acting in good faith to get me to believe them.
Actions speak louder than words.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
A Cancer, eating away at open standards from the inside!!! A Cancer I tell ya!! They're like communists, No, Facists, No! MONKEY DANCERS!!!!!!!
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go and foam at the mouth and throw some furniture.
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
...that equating Microsoft with the Imperial March is being unduly suspicious and paranoid about empires?
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
There was some reluctance from members of that JAVA organization back then too, and their worst fears proved correct.
Other examples of the same M$ infiltration method are out there and they earned a reputation that they cannot be trusted on a standards organization.
Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
People, look at HTML, CSS, and various other web standards, MS has their name all over these standards and look at how IE implements them. MS does this with all standards, so why should this be any different.
Mod this down if you wish, flame it, etc, but I'm right and you know it!
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
Microsoft claim shakes graphics world
3D graphics world shaken by patent claims
Standards stalled over royalty disputes
Microsoft clarifies OpenGL position ... sort of
OpenGL 1.4 unveiled
Right in this very discussion even!
Microsoft managed to stall OpenGL 2.0 and other improvements for the longest time by claiming potential patent infringements with its vertex and pixel shader technologies. As a result OpenGL stalled for some time. Microsoft has since left the OpenGL ARB (Architecture Review Board) after doing the damage it needed to do. Deja vu.
Quickly accused to be BS by an Anonymous Coward.
but then another AC to the rescue with the smackdown.
Honestly, do you really think Microsoft is interested in collaborating with a standard that threatens to deprecate the MS Office format? Is that what you seriously believe?
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
Corporations have a lot to gain / lose when sitting a committee like this. A lot of standards start life as a corporate standard first. Even ODF started life as a corporate standard (at Sun, I believe).
Generally, the folks sitting the committee wish to come to a real consensus. We can hope that Microsoft is merely hedging its bets by testing the ODF standards waters. It could be that Microsoft ends up adopting ODF in an MS-Office generation or two.
I believe Microsoft is finding it harder and harder to buck the standards trends. Imagine how much money they spent trying to push their own web 'standards.' In some research I did recently, it turns out that most of the time, standards beat out proprietary formats every time, usually to the point that people forget there was ever a standards battle. Imagine ASCII vs. all the proprietary character encoding schemes, or IP vs. IPX vs. NETBUEI vs. any number of other networking protocols.
In the end, even Microsoft ends up bowing to the pressure of true, open standards. The only exceptions are when Microsoft products are only concerned about interoperating with other Microsoft products, such as an MS-Windows-based network. The document format world is getting too fragmented for that now. Even within the world of MS-Office, there's document format fragmentation.
Anyway, corporations have a major vested interest in these standards, so it is only appropriate that they sit in committee with the other interested groups. In general, obstructionism is identified and dealt with by the other committee members.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
yep, any long time OpenGL developer can tell you, Microsoft attempted to stall opengl with IP nonsense designed to get a slow government response. Open(*) should kick out microsoft or any company without a clear plan for industry wide collaboration since there is a percieved (blatant) conflict of interest.
Ulterior motives, that's what. Discussing the fine points of the standard to make it better is one thing, but deliberately arguing over uninportant stuff with the intent of delaying the standards group is entirely another -- and that's what I (and everybody else on Slashdot, apparently) suspect Microsoft is planning to do.
I appreciate what you are saying but the "and everybody else on Slashdot" just sucks the life out of your argument. It's creepy, it feels like "and everyone else at the church of scientology thinks battlefield earth is going to be a blockbuster movie".
If you see a document on a site that's a .doc, write to the site owner, telling them that making it available as a pdf would be more useable and font-friendly. Tell them that they can either get a free printer driver to create this from their software, or if they want to, use OpenOffice.org, an office suite that can easily make PDFs, which incidentally is free. And that if they want, you'll send them a CV in the post.
Sitting back and complaining about Microsoft's domination isn't going to change anything. Piece by piece, deconstruction of the customer base and word-of-mouth will work.