Mass Microsoft Defections to Apple Possible

An anonymous reader writes to mention a MacWorld article covering research by the Forrester group. Their report shows that mass dissatisfaction with Microsoft and its products could lead to defections from the company. From the article: "Over all, only Apple and Tivo saw their brand trust rise in the last two years, according to the report. The final tally saw Bose, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Panasonic and Sony earn the highest marks, while Microsoft, Gateway and LG ranked lowest. The low scores for Microsoft could mean good news for Apple as consumers showed their distrust of the Redmond-based software-giant."

Comments

Are we reading the same data?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

I don't mean to be pedantic, but Dell, HP, Panasonic, and Sony all make Microsoft Windows PCs. Apple is the only company that makes Apple computers. If my calculations are correct, Apple is the one with continued minimal marketshare and Microsoft will ride along with those aforementioned four to grand success.

If all your sales outlets have really high customer satisfaction, it's not really a big deal if your customers hate your guts.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's true. The real problem for Microsoft would be if Dell starts selling (and advertising) PCs with Linux. Consumers trust Dell, so if Dell says it is good, they will buy it.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[jocknerd]

That's good to know because Apples tend to be 60% overpriced anyway. I guess you can call it a deposit.

Enough with the overpriced BS. Prove it to me. You show me any PC that can match every spec on an iMac or MacBook Pro that costs 60% less.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[the_humeister]

Dell, HP, Panasonic, and Sony all make crappy PC's compared to an Apple product. Apple is super stable and hold their resale value in ways that even a gold plated Alineware laptop can only dream of.

Crappy? Hardly. Only Sony sells more expensive hardware than Apple. As for Apple computers being super stable, you're joking right? Here're some recent examples of "stability":

• overheating iMac G5s
  
• Intel iMac video problems
  

All computers are manufactured in Taiwan and China. Quality will depend on how much money Dell, HP, Sony, Apple, etc are willing to pay their manufacturers

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[GutBomb]

That's true. The real problem for Microsoft would be if Dell starts selling (and advertising) PCs with Linux. Consumers trust Dell, so if Dell says it is good, they will buy it.

consumers would stop trusting dell as soon as they got their computer and can't run all the easy to use and easy to install software that dells are supposed to be able to run because of this weird "linux" thing they have on their computer. It will never happen in the consumer market.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[JavaSavant]

Tell me where you can sell your 2 year old PC for nearly 60% of it's value and easily get it sold. Apple's usually get that premium.

This is true. It's also true that Apple lives in a different horizontal from Sony, Dell, HP, etc. and has NO competition in that horizontal. IBM clones - the modern PC - allow for competition amongst hardware manufacturers and hence that competition has driven prices down for new PC's. When they are put back into circulation on the used market, they have to compete with the fact that a new PC is priced dramatically lower than a new Macintosh. OTOH, Apple pretty much has a stranglehold as to how their PC's are priced, and because there is no competition in that horizontal to force apple to lower it's prices - you can put a used Macintosh up for sale at 60% or 70% of it's original value, and because there's enough demand for 1) Macs and 2) Used macs that are still a solid product and yet cost less than their newer counterparts, people will still buy them at a higher premium then they pay for a used PC. Apple has the benefit of being the only name in their game - they are allowed to price their new PC's the way they do because of that initial quality, but the retained value is almost purely a result of the lack of competition in the new Macinstosh market and a demand for lesser-priced macs. If you want to really entertain your brain, think about how wise apple would be to offer a trade-up program to keep used mac's off the general market. It's very likely that such a move would allow them to charge an even higher premium for a new Mac because then there is no price competition in their horizontal *at all.*

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm to disprove the "overpriced bullshit", you have to ask for a 1% cost difference. Asking for 60% means that you're willing to accept that Apple is 59% more expensive.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but to them, it's better than being unable to run anything they want to run. Linux advocates need to take into account that the majority of computer users will never be able to deal with Linux. They need to be able to buy a CD at CompUSA and put it in their CD-ROM drive. That is the limit of what they will tolerate on a home PC. They can't deal with the choices inherit in running Linux. They just want it to work. When there are univeral binaries or universal installs of Office, TurboTax, Super Print Shop Pro, etc... that run on Linux, MacOSX and Windows, then they will be able to deal with it. Until then the idea that Linux will take off as a consumer desktop choice is a fantasy. It doesn't matter that they have the power of a CLI or KDE's new widget X.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[Gannoc]

Does the dell have a x1600 video card with 256m of dedicated memory or does it use shared ram? That is a pretty big difference in terms of price. You can play World of Warcraft and edit video on your MacBook. I wouldn't try that with the Dell.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[Scyber]

Dell = No Bluetooth, No DVD Burner, No Gigabit Ethernet, 20GB less HD space, No built in webcam & much worse graphics.

While I still think that Apples are priced highly, you do get alot of features built into the system.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[dr_turgeon]

Agreed. I won't argue about price. Macs cost more. [For me, Macs give more, too.] Value is perceived and is always arguable. It is not a matter of penny-pinching for me. I want a rare animal for my PC. I like that Apple's prices have come down. But no way will I put up with something inferior that is important to me just to "save money." But it seems like the only thing that the Mac bashers have left... Sweet!
--
"Overpriced" is in the heart of the $ holder.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[nine-times]

I'd also like to compare size/weight. Most Dell laptops I've seen are pretty thick, ugly plastic, and the Macbook Pro is pretty light. You pay a premium for those things also.

It's like when people look to compare Mac minis to Dell Dimensions, and they note that the Dells are cheaper for the same stats... but then you have to look at the form factor. The closest thing Dell offers is the Ultra-small form factor Optiplexes, which are still bigger than the Mac minis. Suddenly, the minis don't look that expensive.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[badasscat]

Dell = No Bluetooth, No DVD Burner, No Gigabit Ethernet, 20GB less HD space, No built in webcam & much worse graphics.

While I still think that Apples are priced highly, you do get alot of features built into the system.

A lot of which are useless for most people. Are laptop webcams in any danger of becoming standard-issue items? Are most people's homes wired for gigabit ethernet (heck, are most businesses)?

I think a big part of Apple's perception problem is that they focus so highly on the high end where you get diminishing returns for extra features and specs. A PC with exactly the same specs as the $2,000 MacBook Pro probably would cost close to $2,000, but a PC with 90% of the features specs of the MacBook Pro might only cost $1,000. In fact, I just went to HP's site right now and built a PC with everything the MacBook Pro has except the webcam and the gigabit ethernet, and with a 64 bit AMD CPU and a 1280x800 screen, and the total was $1,033.99. That's still with a DL DVD burner, ATI graphics card w/ 128MB dedicated, 1GB of system RAM, same hard drive, etc.

I mean the question is what are you paying literally 100% more for? Most people just aren't going to see it. Yeah, component-wise, maybe Apple is pretty close to what those specific components cost. But they could choose only *slightly* less powerful stuff and shave a huge amount off the price. They choose not to do that, and that gives them the perception of being overpriced.

I realize they have the iBook line, but until they actually update/replace that line, it's really a joke at this point. Nobody takes a G4 seriously anymore, and the $1,000 HP laptop I just priced absolutely blows the doors off the $1,000 iBook. (Again, I realize the iBook is smaller and lighter, but when you're comparing overall specs and features, it appears the iBook is way overpriced.)

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[Total_Wimp]

It's hillarious that people are arguing which is better. Which is better is not relevant. What's relevant is that Microsoft OSs currently have a lock on the market for applications that are commonly desired by a wide range of consumers and businesses. Even a huge number of desirable web apps do not work as well with non-MS browsers. As long as this is the case, neither Apple, Linux or any other kind of OS has any real chance of dethoning the king.

Apple may make better computers and may have a superior OS. That will not be enough to have consumers or businesses switching in numbers significant enough to threaten Microsoft's monopoly.

TW

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[Krach42]

Rofl, so out of an examination of which one is cheaper to the consumer, you want to disregard one because it is too cheap? Where did you get these incredible debate skills?

I'm not discussing which is cheaper to the consumer. I'm talking about value to the customer.

Where did I get these incredible debate skills? It's called reality.

Reality: Dell has razor thin margins, because they can afford it, and it makes their computers cheaper.

Reality: Apple doesn't have thin margins, they have very fat margins. Then that's how they make their money.

Reality: Dells are cheaper systems than Apple

Reality: I still wouldn't buy a Dell unless I had to.

You're perfectly free to vote with your wallet to say that you want the cheapest hunk of metal on the earth, and a design that hasn't changed significantly over the last 5 years.

Meanwhile, I'm perfectly free to vote with my wallet, and say I don't just care about something being cheap.

To me, money isn't the most important thing in the world that drives every purchase decision in my life. Money just doesn't drive and control my life and purchasing decisions.

Again, you're entirely free to make your own choice, I'm not arguing AGAINST you, I'm arguing around you. Saying that the money isn't what's important to me. Apple provides things that Dell doesn't, and I like Apple more than Dell. That is why I buy Apples.

I just want people to understand that some of us are grounded in reality, and realize that Apple computers are more expensive. I'm just saying that that's not the only thing that counts.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[mshurpik]

>Are most people's homes wired for gigabit ethernet (heck, are most businesses)?

YES BECAUSE GIG-E RUNS ON CAT-5. heh. Read the spec sometime, they pulled out all the stops to get that thing running on 8 strands of copper rated at 100Mhz. At a casual glance, that would seem impossible, but it turns out that was the major design goal, to not rewire anything.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[dfghjk]

Video editing is not demanding on video performance but it is demanding of screen real estate. The Dell, by virtue of its higher resolution display, would make a better video editing platform and Windows has viable video editing applications despite what mac people think. Apple needs to get with the times on LCD resolution. 100dpi is so 1990's.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[DoubleDownOnEleven]

It seems that by moving the discussion to "value", you have created an argument that's impossible to argue for or against, because it's built upon an undefinable value (or at least a value that's impossible to get everyone to agree on).

What is "value?" It varies for different people. It could be price, looks, ease of ordering the product, tech support, etc.

I think you've touched upon the key disagreement between Mac and Windows apologists, in that there are often different definitions of value being used.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"Dell = No Bluetooth, No DVD Burner, No Gigabit Ethernet, 20GB less HD space, No built in webcam & much worse graphics."

That's not a $1,300 difference.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[NMerriam]

Video editing is not demanding on video performance

In the 20th century, that was true. Modern operating systems now use the powerful graphics processors available to manipulate video frames in real-time without touching the CPU. This is the sort of stuff we used to buy $3,000 real-time video compression cards for only a few years ago (of course, they were always tied to particular software and codecs).

Windows has viable video editing applications

They are viable, but none are nearly as good/powerful as the Final Cut family. Premiere and even Avid look downright cro-magnon when compared to FCP. My only regret is that after nearly 6 years of professional video editing, I only got to spend the last year and a half of it on a Mac with FCP.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[guet]

Even a huge number of desirable web apps do not work as well with non-MS browsers.

Name them.

All the web-apps I use have to work around the years old bugs of IE, they don't deliver because of IE but in spite of it. This is 2005 and MSIE can't even render PNGs properly or render CSS 2. Last time I heard that kind of crap was about 4 years ago, I thought people had stopped coming out with it, but obviously not. Web apps which have made news over the last few years have conspicuously not based on IE - gmail, flikr, delicious, rss, podcasts spring to mind. This is what MS was afraid of and why they crushed Netscape.

It's hillarious that people are arguing which is better. Which is better is not relevant

On the contrary, it's relevant for a lot of people. If everyone had attitudes like yours we'd still be living with DOS (Windows was a direct reaction to Mac OS). Hell even DOS was bought from someone else and was a poor copy. Things like a global spell-check (try it on your post) or address book make a lot of difference in some peoples' computing life.

Are you as satisfied as you sound with the pitiful state of OS software and browsers over the last few years?

2 things keep MS dominant
Their aggressive (often illegal) tactics, OEM contracts, bundling, buyouts, embrace and extend
Ignorance amongst the buying public

Thankfully the last of those is starting to change - it's something to be welcomed, but feel free to keep your head in the sand and sneer at alternatives like it's 1999.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[arminw]

....That's funny, plenty of people still use OS X despite the fact that it is not binary compatible with MS Windows....

Programs available for OSX are simple to install and are GUARANTEED to run on all Macs without any special user knowledge about specific flavors or configuration settings needed. Same is true for Windows. Can ONE binary program run on EVERY flavor of Linux on every computer that can normally run Windows? If a developer were to make a Linux program to sell at CompUSA, would it run on the same wide variety of computer that Windows runs on? When Linux can equal Windows or OSX in this ease of use, the Dells of this world will have an incentive to abandon MS.

Re:Are we reading the same data?

[Fanboy Troy]

You can't make the argument that Linux is easy because it's all point and click...you know launching oo.org, running firefox, checking that email with evolution, etc and then have non point and click instructions to perform other basic tasks like dvd playback.

What are you talking about? Installing xine is as easy as launching the package manager in your distro and selecting the package that is described as 'plays DVDs you n00b'. =)

Don't mistake the CLI way as the only way, although it is the fastest way to do it.

About the naming: I never saw anyone having a problem with winamp, or Nero, although their names don't make sense immediantly.

I don't know about SuSE, but the rest are as easy as two clicks to install, or worst case senario, click add and write in a repository. Still we are talking about Dell preinstalling some distro, so all this 'linux cannot play DVDs' is bullshit. So is all the 'I need to go CLI to install my nvidia drivers'. Dell will ship with an image of linux that does this right out of the box. Last time I checked, windows XP doesn't play DVDs out of the box either. I just tried it yesterday and was searching for my PowerDVD CD all over the place...

Lastly, the lack of games is a problem for gamers. So is lack of some professional software like photoshop. But linux really does have to offer alot to a user that is not in need of niche applications or games.

Defect my butt

[Anonymous Coward]

All MS has to do is keep backward compatibility for legacy apps and most everyone already using it will simply stay with it.

Argh.

[superdan2k]

Okay, I'm a Mac geek, and as much as I'd like to see that, please, for fuck's sake, consider the source -- MacWorld has always been a pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking magazine. Back in the day, when Apple was one bad day from becoming a memory, MacWorld had a glowing-postive view of the future. A little success now, and they think that every bad review for Microsoft means that millions of users are just going to jump ship in a heartbeat.

I mean really? This is news? Product-specific magazine predicts rosy future for the product it reports on? No shit?

Re:Argh.

[matt4077]

Back in the day, when Apple was one bad day from becoming a memory, MacWorld had a glowing-postive view of the future.

Yeah, but they were right.

Re:Argh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it's not really from MacWorld. They wrote it, but it's just a lightly-edited press release from Forrester research.

See other articles culled from the same press release:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=apple+m icrosoft+bose

Re:Argh.

[MBCook]

It's true, if you ask me. I defected. I was sick of MS so I tried the change. There were other benefits (I got to have Unix, I got to try iLife), but I did it.

I help people around my area with computer problems, advise them on software, teach them how to do things, etc. Every single one hates windows. To them it's a bit like gas. No one likes paying for gas, but your car won't run without it. When I mention they have an alternative (Apple) many are somewhat interested. None of them want to go out and buy a new computer just for the OS, but they are fed up with MS. Even with the cost of having to learn a new OS (despite the similarities which they don't know of), they are ready to do almost anything to get a computer that "just works".

When it comes time to buy a new computer, many of them will be considering Macs. That may not be for two years or so (due to recent purchases or just hanging onto a computer for a long time), but if they ask me I'll be steering them towards Macs. I use my Mac at home and at school, doing all sorts of stuff. Then I get a call to fix a printer and have to go through tons of hassle to fix the printer on Windows. Or to make the internet work again. Or to remove spyware. Or to fix some odd windows problem (DNS just dies, only on one machine) that seems to require a reinstall to fix.

Windows is a pain. It always has been. It's gotten better, but not nearly enough. If I could turn back time and give all those people who I help a Mac instead of a PC I can not tell you how much easier of a time they would have had of things.

You won't see 20 million switchers a year. But they will switch. They've been doing it and it's been accelerating. Remember that with MS's market share, if even 1% of home users were to switch that would be a HUGE number. If this story gets "debunked" later and they say "only 0.25% of Windows users switched last year", remember that would be about a 10% boost to Apple's market share.

People are fed up. The only people I know who are NOT fed up with Windows are those who love to constantly tinker. I used to be that way, but I got tired of having to tinker. They will too one day.

If you build it, they will come.

If you advertise, they will come faster. I can't tell you how much Apple's sales would go up if they brought back the kind of ads they had during the first iMacs ("My family needed to do X and with their windows computer they had to do this and that and... and it didn't work. We plugged in my Mac and it worked instantly.").

I am not expecting a rush.

[jellomizer]

While most people distrust Microsoft, I wouldn't say a big influx will happen. True or Not most people even the ones who are considerably well "Tech smart" will probably stay with windows because they don't want change to that scale. Still most will look at the software available for Windows and how much for Mac. Even now that you can run windows on the Mac it doesn't alsways make sence for them to do so. Plus fears of needing new hardware, replaceing a lot of their extra cool stuff (even though it may work better on the mac) are afraid of loosing their investment and will not switch. Better the Devil you know then the Devil you don't

Re:I am not expecting a rush.

[happyemoticon]

While it's true that there is less software available on the mac platform, a lot of people have a poor conception of the problem, and think there's more competition in the PC space than there actually is.

For niche stuff there's definitely an issue. This hits home with me in the games department, but I understand that for some really specific business-related tasks it's a big hurdle to adoption as well.

Then there's what normal people do with their computers:

• Surf the web
• Write papers
• Send and recieve email
• Chat
• Accounting

That's about it. People who bitch about a big vaccuum of software on the Mac platform are still thinking in the 1990's, when the web was static and people published things like interactive, searchable Bibles and Microsoft Fucking Encarta. That stuff is like ice makers in a car: novel but totally unnecessary and easily replaceable by, say, getting ice from the freezer. It was an immature space and you had a lot of weird stuff out there, but now people realize it's less of a pain in the butt just to get it on the web for free or look at Wikipedia. Therefore, there are only five applications that people use:

IE - Office - Outlook - AIM - Quicken

Choice doesn't matter. Even though choices exist, 90% of people will use those 5 applications most of the time. It's a space where there's 31 flavors but everybody buys vanilla, and the clerk knows you want vanilla in advance so he starts scooping it and rings you up before you have a chance to say a word. In light of that, is it so horrible that on a Mac, you'll be using:

Safari - Office - Mail - iChat - Quicken

Oh noes! No ActiveX! Whatever shall I do? Furthermore, there are, in fact, alternatives to all of these. You could use Camino, Firefox, Shiira, OO.org, Opera, Thunderbird, Eudora, Fire, GAIM, Pages, or event Pine, Lynx, TeX, and centericq if you really, really like terminals. People have just been trained to think a certain way about the Mac/PC rift, and many of their ideas are sort of fossilized in 1996.

Convicted monopolist

[Overly Critical Guy]

Microsoft is a convicted monopolist. It doesn't matter how dissatisfied people get; they are stuck using Windows because all their computers run Windows and therefore their apps run on Windows. Because of Microsoft's illegal coercion tactics toward OEMs in the 90s, superior products weren't allowed to compete, and Microsoft cheated to achieve 95+% market share.

It's the reason Microsoft has actually held back computing by about five years, altering the course of history. We should be farther ahead in the experiences of using a desktop computer, and Mac users know what it feels like to be there already.

It's amazing the American economy has come to rely on something so...unreliable.

Doubt it highly unlikely

[madnuke]

Windows is and will remain the dominant operating system for years to come, never mind linux or mac too much is done on windows for a migration to another operating system. If you look at the business world they could'nt and wouldn't switch their entire system over to shiny white macs when they could have a load of Dell PC's at the fraction of the cost. For home users they want something cheap that can do the basics like go on the internet, get an email or two perhaps do some work. For gamers, they want something that can the latest games and than can be upgraded cannot meet those requirements. Macs are designed for graphics and to look nice, OS X is an excellent operating system I myself may purchase one of the new mactel machines, but when the consumer has a set budget then Apple is well out of their league, plus the source is unreliable as its rather bias from a Mac fan news site. The reality is without the Ipod, Apple would be doing a lot less well, because of the shear marketing factor the ipod has had on the company.

It's a Macworld article...

[IANAAC]

Why should I place any more weight in this article, than, say, something out of Redmond touting Microsoft?

Proof the general public doesn't know jack

[Weaselmancer]

...about computers. Sony got high marks this year in customer confidence. That proves it pretty much.

Yes, mass defections are *possible*, but...

[JacksBrokenCode]

I wish the article had more numbers and less hypothesis. The gist seems to be "people distrust Microsoft, therefore Apple could get bigger." Now, how long has Forrester been conducting these surveys and for how many years in a row has Microsoft been un-trustworthy in the public eye? If 5 million MS users have distrusted MS for years but are still using Windows, the survey doesn't mean anything.

Of course "Mass Defections to Apple are Possible". But they've always been *possible* and yet Microsoft still holds the majority of the market share. Too bad this article couldn't shed more insight than "Survey confirms what Slashdot already believes - people don't trust Microsoft."

Why not?

[thesuperbigfrog]

If a Mac will run OS X and Windows, why wouldn't people defect from their PCs? They can still run Windows and try out using a computer with all of the niceties of their iPods.

After they get the hang of OS X, they will wonder why they ever tolerated Windows. . .

that would be great, but improbable

[deadmantyping]

I would love to switch over to an apple macbook pro, but frankly their laptops are too expensive, and for a student purchasing something so expensive to replace a laptop that still works fine isnt worth it. Many other people are already comfortable with windows, are uninformed about OS X, and are unwilling to shell out that much money for a laptop, particularly when they can go to Dell and buy a laptop for dirt cheap with an operating system that they don't have to relearn how to use. It would be great if people would switch away from Windows, but I don't see it happening to a large extent right now.

Trust report?

[grasshoppa]

Sony? Highest level of trust?

Sony?!

The public is either a mass of idiots waiting to be fleeced, or..uh...

I think I just answered my own question.

Trying a Mac

[MCSEBear]

The old school reasons for not even trying a Mac have fallen away. The old saw was that Macs used nonstandard parts that were more expensive. The truth is that you can buy a cheap Mac Mini which uses standard RAM and notebook hard drives, and has a socketed CPU which can be upgraded. You don't have to give up your investment in Windows software, since Boot Camp lets you run Windows on your Mac if you wish to. If you end up deciding that you don't like MacOSX then you have a very classy super small mini me Windows based computer. No wasted money.

Windows users who give MacOSX a try find that they like it quite a lot. Anand Lal Shimpi over at Anandtech.com springs to mind. Windows uber user Paul Thurott also couldn't review the CTP of Vista without saying "I have certain misgivings about Vista resembling Mac OS X. With its translucent windows, such comparisons are going to be hard to avoid. But Vista's similarity with OS X goes well beyond window dressing. Certain applications, such as Calendar, Sidebar, and Photo Gallery, appear to be directly, ahem, influenced by similar applications in OS X." This is an OS that geeks can't help but love once they use it.

The really amusing thing is now the Mac supports more software than Windows does. You can run everything that runs on Windows, everything that runs on MacOSX, plus quite a bit of the software that runs on Linux. It's geek nirvana.

There really isn't any reason not go give a Mac a chance anymore. I'm an MCSE (gee, did you guess from my handle?)and I like OSX quite a lot. I can't wait to see what they do in the next version of MacOSX since it looks like Vista is going to be used dog food.

Re:Trying a Mac

[zeno_2]

Yes, I would agree completely here. I was a windows user, and would run every application maximized, and switch tasks using the taskbar at the bottom.

Lately ive been using macs instead. Now I have layered windows all over the place, and either use expose, which, by the way is the greatest thing ever invented, or, I just leave little spots of windows here and there so I can click on them to switch tasks that way. Its *a lot* easier to work in a lot of applications on a mac then it is on windows, something I have realized since Ive started to use them.

I noticed the expose type thing with vista and it doesnt look very slick. It kinda organizes all the windows at like an isometric view type of thing and I guess you use the scrollwheel to cycle thru them. With osx, I just flick my wrist to the top right of the screen and I have every open window available to me. Anyway, osx has made me realize that windows is very clunky.

Slashdot gets it right

[qortra]

For once, the Slashdot headlines are far more sane;

*Some* defections are a pretty good bet, seeing as how people have been leaving windows for Mac OS for the last several years now. Of course, you're right that the macworld headline is fairly optimistic; to double market share would be quite an accomplishment. But does it really seem that far out? Apple has what, a 3.5% market share or something like it? To get to 7% seems very doable so long as Vista is delayed long enough, or just plain sucks. Just imagine if everybody who has an iPod bought a Mac MINI. That would far more than double their market share. Of course, I realize that's unlikely, but the iPod does make an excellent transition device. When people are exposed to the Apple interface, they often get hooked.

Somewhat absurd

[joebooty]

The idea that thousands of employees would leave because some survey says the brand name is poor is absurd to me. MS is making a killing and their quarterly profits year in and out are unreal.

Who cares about some brand recognition study? These people are all supposed to ditch their stock and steady income over an article on the web? Give me a break.

Last I checked Walmart sure has a lot of employees. Do any of you associate walmart with high quality?

Re:Somewhat absurd

[joebooty]

was hoping for some amusing rtfa posts but anyways.

Peoples wallets make their decisions for them. People have windows cause the computers come with it. Now people are buying their 3rd and 4th computers and want their old stuff to work.

MS will lose market share when someone else TAKES it, it will not go away on its own.

No news?

[Zebra_X]

"Microsoft faces big consumer defection risk: One measure of consumers' dissatisfaction with Microsoft is seen in the 5.4 million households that gave it a brand trust of 1 (distrust a lot) or 2 (distrust a bit),"

5.4 million customers? Such a staggering number, for Apple maybe. Really folks, how much revenue are these people going to generate for MS? A hundred bucks a pc, every 5 years?

If users need office they will have to buy it either way. In addition, it will be cheaper to buy the bundled version with a Windows based PC.

The salient point the article fails to make is that the real risk is to Apple. By not converting these people they miss out on revenue generated by hardware and software. Incidently, if you are a Mac owner, and you've paid for every major release of OS X, you've paid about $500 over the last 5 years for your operating system. Compare this with $120 (assuming 2k upgrade) for the last 5 years for an XP owner.

The article goes on to say that many people don't associate the iPod with Mac Computers. An interesting point - however it is going to be difficult for Apple to upsell people on a $3K computer, from a $300 purchase.

Re:No news?

[phillymjs]

...if you are a Mac owner, and you've paid for every major release of OS X, you've paid about $500 over the last 5 years for your operating system.

I'm sorry, who exactly is putting a gun to the head of Mac owners and forcing them to upgrade their OS? Every non-techie Mac owner I know continues to happily use the OS that came with their computer, just like the non-techie Windows users do. Upgrade cost: $0.

Compare this with $120 (assuming 2k upgrade) for the last 5 years for an XP owner.

Let me get this straight. You're trying to turn the fact that Microsoft has been too inept to get a successor OS to XP out in the last five years into a plus???

An interesting point - however it is going to be difficult for Apple to upsell people on a $3K computer, from a $300 purchase.

Yeah, Apple really needs to come out with some entry level hardware to entice switchers. Maybe a small form factor machine based on those Intel Core Solo and Duo CPUs I've been hearing so much about. They could sell it for $600 or so and call it the "Mac mini" or something.

~Philly

Admittedly

[ddx Christ]

After recent news, I know a lot of people that want to switch. I want to switch as well. However, it's cost prohibitive. Most of the people I know are students, and students trying to afford college at that. Apple hardware is just out of our small budgets.

Re:Admittedly

[iggymanz]

most students spend more than $450 on their windows machines, and that can get you into a mini-mac

Who do you trust?

[gooman]

I use Microsoft products daily.
Do I trust Microsoft? No way!

I would agree that (among my client base) there is a general uneasy feeling building towards Microsoft. So the idea that their ranking is lower does not surprise me at all.

Do I trust Apple? Not anymore than Microsoft.

The conspiracy theorist in me believes the real motive behind their switch to Intel has to do with standardizing DRM.

When all of the hardware is "Trusted" then who will you trust at all?

not to be a ms fan boy by any means, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it really Microsoft's product? I mean a fresh clean install of Windows XP is fantastic and I have 0 problems with it (my Mac with OSX freezes more than my Windows PC). It's when people put a million pieces of crap on their computers that it starts to breakdown, and for very good reason. Think of all the crappy software that gets put on these computers and people would associate those issues with Microsoft, blaming it on the OS when it reality it's their own faults.

The main issue would be security but the only reason Mac's dont have this issue as much as Windows is that it isn't attacked as much. Take the hundreds of thousands of hackers chipping away at Windows and have them change their focus to Macs and we'll see how quickly OSX becomes "faulty" like Windows is.

I wouldn't blame MS for 1/2 of their problems.

Only an apple fan...

[danpsmith]

...would be able to quote this as a good thing. The fact that Sony, Dell, and Bose also scored high shows that the study has nothing to do with quality of company at all. Look at Dell, its outsourced support, its inferior products. Look at Sony, rootkits, proprietary formats, total lack of quality in most components... Look at bose, in the industry it stands for "buy other sound equipment", and frequently people say "no highs, no lows, must be bose", there's also a slogan that alters the company motto: "bose: better sound through marketing". These companies aren't being graded in this article because of _quality_ as the other companies listed are hardly quality players themselves. If Apple fans want to be taken seriously, they should stop worrying so much about winning converts or market share and start worrying about how to make cheaper or actually superior products. Anything short of wanting this end, instead of just popularity, is just brand loyalty and nothing else. So if this makes you smile, it's probably because you are a fan boy.

Re:Apple Stock Price Hurting

[porcupine8]

Hurting?

Funny, my picture tells a different story.

How do you know?

[SuperKendall]

The people that make up the population in the survey say they distrust MS. Okay, fine. What they distrust is their business practices, not MS's software itself (rightly or wrongly).

What makes you think that? Why would a whole user population constantly under attack from viruses and spyware not fall into a dislike of Windows itself? That's what I have seen with a lot of people.

Upgrades

[SuperKendall]

The salient point the article fails to make is that the real risk is to Apple. By not converting these people they miss out on revenue generated by hardware and software. Incidently, if you are a Mac owner, and you've paid for every major release of OS X, you've paid about $500 over the last 5 years for your operating system. Compare this with $120 (assuming 2k upgrade) for the last 5 years for an XP owner.

Yes but OS X users are running the equivilent of Vista right now. How much is Vista going to cost, and wouldn't you be willing to pay a little more to be running it about two years earlier? You are ignoring the beenfit I get for my exta feature with reduced time spent on tasks and the ability to make use of new system features.

I think it's pretty funny that you've managed to spin Microsoft's lack of ability to deliver on Vista into a major price comparison plus for Windows!

Bad Survey

[Cid Highwind]

Either the survey's methods are bad, or the American consumer's idea of what makes a company trustworthy is hopelessly muddled. Either way, they results of any "brand trust" survey that gives high marks to Bose (Wal-Mart quality at audiophile prices) HP (refilling our $50 ink cartridges that only last a month is illegal) and Sony (Played our music lately? You've got malware!) is worthless.

Re:Enough already!

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I can't see a gamer spending a crapload of money on a system that they can't slap the latest video card into every 6 months.

First, gamers are a tiny segment of the market. Second, many gamers now use laptops to make LAN parties easier, thus have no upgrade option. Third, why can't you slap a new video card in the Mac tower when it is released?

And I can't see a business spending crap tons of money on a more expensive machine to do all the same tasks they currently do.

While some companies do use Macs for the simplified management and lower security costs, you're right that most won't be switching anytime soon. Rather, expect a slow migration towards Linux in the business space. That trend, I think, may open some doors for Mac purchases, as environments will become more friendly to standards compliant OS's

Maybe they'll sell some upgrades to people who use an older mac and want the ability to dual boot, but beyond that...?

Mostly I see this as a way to sell more Macs to potential "switchers." People might want to use OS X, but be unsure if they will like it in the long term. This gives them the security of being able to "switch back" at a low price point. The real market for new Mac users, in my opinion, are those who would love to ditch Windows, but require some Windows-only software. I foresee a lot more migration in this space as virtualization/emulation/reimplementation takes off. Here at work we get to choose among a few particular models of computers; one of which is a powerbook (used by maybe 55% the company right now). I know when the time comes to pick an upgrade several people in administration, sales, documentation, etc. who are now using a Thinkpad will probably go for a powerbook combined with something to run those Windows applications within OS X.

For some it will be their first experience using a Mac (or first using OS X anyway). They have at this point only looked over the shoulders of others and said, "hey how come you can do that?" and "wow that is really cool!" Another interesting item of note, is I don't know people that switch back. Well, I know one guy who bought a powerbook, used OS X for a while, and then went back to Linux as his main OS. But, by and large, when people buy a Mac, they continue to do so from then on. It is hard to lose all that functionality, once you get used to it. This will probably influence their next home computer purchase as well.

In summary, I don't see that bootcamp will be used much, but I do think it will drive some Mac sales. Further, I think other technologies (enabled by the switch to new Intel processors) that allow Windows software to run will drive even more sales. I think this particular article was empty fluff, but I do foresee increasing market share, especially among power users.

It's the cost of software...

[snStarter]

...that makes the transition difficult. For a long-term Windows user it would mean buying a new software suite unless vendors start giving good cross-grade pricing. There's lots of money tied up in software and shifting it to a new platform may well cost several times the cost of the platform itself. Looking at my quad-G5 I see that I have well over the cost of the machine and its 30" display in software.

The user experience would have to become very bad for me to move.

On the other hand the troubles friends have with the Windows machines seems to suggest that they have passed that line already!

From one closed system to another

[Kristoffer Lunden]

Ok, so it's unlikely to happen anyways - but if one were to toy around with the thought that Macs would rise to take a significant portion of the operating systems used, what would that mean? Not much, from my point of view. It would just mean new vendor lock-in, and probably even worse interoperability as the Apple specific formats become more common. While today WMA, DOC, XLS and PPT are enough trouble, we'd add AAC, CWK, SIT and what have you to the list. DRM will be just as common and prevalent (witness Fairplay and iTunes).

I'll readily admit that I don't know much about Macs and the formats that are used, maybe most are or are becoming open - I just know that every so often I get a file I can't open from a Mac user (yesterday, an AppleWorks file was the most recent). It was the same when I used Windows, so apparently little has changed over the years. That I can open MS files is just because the community has been so hard at work deciphering the formats and reimplementing them. If Apple becomes any more common, the community possibly would have to start over.

The way that Apple has handled any open source connections to their OS and other products quite clearly shows that they only want to take advantage of it, not contribute back [1] [2] [3]. While open standards and open source is not the same thing, and standards is IMO more important, they share a lot of common attributes and philosophy behind. I don't think Apple is interested in either.

It's quite possible that Apple makes a great OS, and great hardware, but it is also quite clear that they are just as predatory and monopolistic as ever Microsoft - they just haven't had the numbers to make the same impact. And I couldn't care which vendor tries to lock me hard to their platform and their DRM, it's all bad in either case. Until Apple decides to play fair with the rest of the world I won't be thinking any better of them than I do MS - being the underdog does not excuse bad behaviour, nor does "but they are doing it".

Being pragmatic to me does not only mean "use what works" it also means looking at what "will work" - and what will continue to do so.

(PS, I can't get a new, open format copy of the cwk file I received until the end of April due to vacations - anyone know of anything that can read this format on a Linux system? Thanks. DS)

Re:This is very correct.

[Anonymous Coward]

People like you are nothing but whiny little wannabes, too cheap and shortsighted to justify the added purchase price of a quality Apple product, but nevertheless frustrated by your unfulfilled desire to own one. You wear $15 Wrangler jeans from WalMart and try to convince yourself that they're just as good as a pair of Diesels. And for special occasions you dine out at Denny's, while proudly announcing that their $6.95 shoe-leather t-bone steak is just as good as the aged prime rib sold in that fine steak house downtown for $30.

In other words, you know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

If you folks really couldn't care less about Apple, then you wouldn't swarm to these Apple discussions to vent your frustrations.

Software and prices

[aliquis]

"I know of many people switching from Windows to MAC for video editing and graphics simply because the software on the windows side is utter garbage compared to the apple offering, and the regular consumer is starting to see that."

Aren't most of the apps for those purposes the same? But Windows probably got more of them, and the hardware is cheaper and perform better.

"When you get high end hardware with high end software and couple it with a system that you do not haveto hire a company every 2 months to clean it out you get the general public looking at it very closely. The mac-Mini entices them further as it's cheap and will use their monitor. (Actually a Dual G5 tower will use their PC monitors, just the FUD surrounding the apple products leads them to think otherwise.)"

Two letters: BS

"Also faced with dropping $300.00 for Vista and the requirement to double ram, speed,etc... people will really look at apple closer as their current system ages."

Yeah, because it's much better to pay $120 or whatever for each "upgrade" of MacOS X? All the time?

Also MacOS X uses a lot of resources, and you pay a premium for the hardware. So this doesn't make sense either.

"Other than games or wierd business apps from the vertical market, there is no real reason to not switch to a more stable, secure and user friendly platform like OSX."

Except that I do belive I would like MacOS X more than Windows there are no reason to switch either. Windows is stable, and what says MacOS X would be much more secure? User friendly depends on what you like I guess, the GUI are probably less retarded on MacOS, but the lack of some apps and the fact that it's "different" will make many people think it's harder to use.