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Burst.com Sues Apple Over Patent Infringement

AWhiteFlame writes "Techdirt is reporting that Burst.com has filed a lawsuit against Apple for Patent Infringement. From the article, 'Burst.com is known for having patented a method for moving large pieces of content online at faster speeds [...] Last year, they approached Apple, suggesting that the company pay it 2% of iTunes' revenue. Apple then went on the offensive in January, proactively asking a judge to either invalidate Burst's patents or declare that Apple wasn't infringing. Just to make the litigation circle complete, after a few months of trying to reach a middle settlement ground, Burst has now gone ahead and sued Apple on its own.'"

28 of 212 comments (clear)

  1. summary by seanadams.com · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I ran their slide show through my Vulturecapitalese-to-English translator and discovered that the inventions they're claiming are software algorithms as follows:


    1) vanilla load balancing
    2) automatically resuming a download
    3) playing a download while the entire file is saved to disk (regardless of how much is actually viewed?)
    4) caching downloads (and/or partial downloads) on disk instead of asking the server again


    I can't bring myself to actually read the patents since my Patentlawyerese-to-English translator is broken but they have a list of them here (pdf).


    So some speculator pooled together the [cough]bullshit[/cough] IP of several defunct startups and hopes to sue everybody.

    1. Re:summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Problem is, Burst did it years BEFORE Quicktime, Akaimi or anyone else. What is obvious now wasn't back then. Do your research. Look at the filing dates of those patents.

      Sometimes patent trolls arent patent trolls, they are the little guys that the uber-corporations like to step on. Apple has become as bad as Microsoft in the mentality that patents are bad... errrr... except when they are ours, then they're good. Hypocrisy anyone?

      When did Apple become as nasty as Microsoft? And when did ALL patents become bad? Sure the system needs repair, but you can't ignore it totally. Most people havent a clue how the system works. YOU, for example, assumed these patents must be BS because they are obvious to you, right now, in 2006. Thats not how the system works. Learn what the patent system is before you critcize it.

      Without patents, there would be no small inventors, as the big corps could steal others innovations whenever they feel like it. Oh wait, they already do that. Apple is not immune. Go invent something, patent it, and in four years after we all think (after 5 mins of thought) that it was obvious and you cry that GM stole it, we'll call you a whiner and patent troll. See ya then.

    2. Re:summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Without patents, there would be no small inventors

      What natural right do you have to prevent someone from doing something obvious, just because you thought of it first? Answer: none.

      So you can take your moral arguments and... go patent them, or something, because they're certainly novel and non-obvious.

    3. Re:summary by nacturation · · Score: 5, Funny

      The sad part is that Burst has already one once against Microsoft

      Maybe this time they'll get to two twice.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    4. Re:summary by tm2b · · Score: 4, Interesting
      The sad part is that Burst has already one once against Microsoft, that'll weigh heavily on Apple going in to this.
      Sigh. I'm still waiting for that (-1, WRONG WRONG WRONG) moderation tag that Slashdot needs so badly...

      Burst.com has not "one" (sic) once against Microsoft in any legal sense, Microsoft settled. Such a settlement does not set any legal expectation to "weigh heavily on Apple," all it does is imply that Microsoft's lawyers thought that Burst.com had a strong case.

      Even that isn't directly comparable, because the suit against Microsoft included antitrust claims that aren't applicable against Apple, since (regardless of complaints /.ers might make of Apple's dominance with the iTMS) there is no legal finding of fact that Apple is a monopoly.
      --
      "It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
    5. Re:summary by localman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the big corps could steal others innovations whenever they feel like it. Oh wait, they already do that

      And there you've nailed the real problem with patents: they don't do what they were intended. They don't protect the little guy at all. The little guy inventors always get reamed anyways because just about any verdict can be purchased with enough money. Patents just make it easier for the rich corporations that are on equal financial footing to hammer each other in court, see RIM, etc.

      The philosophy of patents makes sense: provide a way to reward invention and help recoup the cost of research and development. I don't see modern patents doing this at all. Most inventors are not actually rewarded (the company they work for is) and research is usually distributed across different competing companies and then the patent holder sues whoever comes out on top.

      It's just a mess. A messy mess.

      I have a meeting with the USPTO this on Wednesday, and I have no idea what to say that could have any positive effect.

      Cheers.

    6. Re:summary by frilledren · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I read through their patents, and it was all too familiar since I had to wade through legalese for 2 biophysics patents I have. I don't know what any of their other ppt presentations or tea leaves claim, but the patents are based on the ability to:
      Record audio/video to solid state device (RAM, optical disk, tape (yikes!), etc.) Transmit said media over telecommunications devices, especially using compression. Receive media over telecommunications services. This technology is especially designed for vhs duplication using a single tape deck, and intermediately storing the information on solid state devices.
      read them if you like:
      http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=P TO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch- bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=4,963,995 .PN.&OS=PN/4,963,995&RS=PN/4,963,995

      http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=P TO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch- bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=5,995,705 .PN.&OS=PN/5,995,705&RS=PN/5,995,705
      Ok, so that covers, hmmm, most things in my office and home- which generally, means that the patent is probably excessively broad (IANAL), but that's typically how they're written- so you could sue anyone anywhere. Since it seems so broad, I imagine that there is a good chance of finding some 'prior art' (somebody who did it before and made the information public, public knowledge=not patentable), such as technology to transmit pictures from scientific and military satelites, which both seem like they fit the above points. Furthermore, the technology seems like an obvious combination of existing technologies, in which case apple may be able to really fight them.

      Some might say that big companies profit off the technology of little ones like burst, but I honestly despise non-existent technology being patented, as it removes a lot of the motivation for another company to independently develop it, market it, bring to the consumers, just so someone else can say that he or she told the USPTO about it 16 years ago and scoop up 1 hundred million or so, but I guess IP portfolio companies just wait for a company to succeed and then flip through their holdings to see what they can sue them for. Big tech companies are different, as they almost all infringe on each others patents but have a more unspoken standoff relationship of not suing whenever possible, so as to prevent eternal litigation. Small companies are problematic in this, as they might have no marketed technology, yet own patents, so they rarely infringe and are not part of the 'mutual destruction' standoff. Something about a suit driven company turns my stomach.

      An idea does not equal a technology, and I wish the USPTO were more stringent in the applications (only recently was a functional example of a 'Warp Drive' required for that applicant). I know that the USPTO accepts ideas alone, and need not be at all functional, but at some point this is a real obstacle for innovation. Fraunhoffer's MP3 technology was viable and not just an idea for compressing audio (and making cymbals sound crappy). Both of my patents are for developed and published techniques. If I have the idea for non-hallucinogenic chewing gum that lets you travel through time, but someone else actually makes it, my hat's off to that dude.

    7. Re:summary by Znork · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Problem is, Burst did it years BEFORE Quicktime, Akaimi or anyone else."

      And lots of other people did it before Burst. Caching and loadbalancing are intrinsic to the field of network services.

      "And when did ALL patents become bad?"

      At approximately the same time that any coercive government backed monopoly became bad.

      "Without patents, there would be no small inventors,"

      That is utter bullshit. If we needed a system specifically encouraging small inventors, we'd put a system specifically encouraging small inventors in place. Like attribution rights and incentives, where the government would pay out a stipend for a specific invention, or something similar. It's trivial to create a system much better suited to harnessing the innovative talent, because almost _any_ system would be superior to monopoly rights.

      Monopoly rights serve only those who can use capital and legal clout as leverage, most notably those who already have money and relations to power, and they're solidly stacked against anyone else.

    8. Re:summary by Gorshkov · · Score: 4, Informative

      Problem is, Burst did it years BEFORE Quicktime, Akaimi or anyone else. What is obvious now wasn't back then. Do your research. Look at the filing dates of those patents.

      Do YOUR research.
      Resuming downloads? FTP
      Load Balancing? Pretty well any large-scale internet router, database management system, web server, or any of a large number of system software packages, and most modern operating system network subsystems.
      Play while spooling? Not a whole hellova lot different from double-buffering, except you're writing it to disk instead of an in-memory structure.

      How a patent like that got granted in the first place is absolutly beyond me. If I can come up with reasonable (thought not necessarily *legally* acceptable) examples like that off the top of my head at 7AM after having been up all night WITHOUT doing any research, you're gonna have a very hard time convincing me that the patents should have been granted in the first place.

    9. Re:summary by SpectralDesign · · Score: 3, Insightful

      resume a download...

      I think Z-modem was around before Akami, Quicktime, etc.... no?

      And isn't there some little detail about protecting a patent or lose it? Or is that only a copyright thing? I get so confused in all this IP quicksand....

      --
      Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss
    10. Re:summary by Traiklin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Burst.com IS being a patent troll.

      It say's right up there "Last year, they [Burst.com] approached Apple, suggesting that the company pay it 2% of iTunes' revenue."

      now please, tell my why they waited untill LAST YEAR to file the lawsuit or claim patent infringment? couldn't this of been done, oh I don't know, 10 YEARS ago? you know when the internet became a household thing and no one knew what a lot of that stuff was?

      Hell I never heard of Burst.com till the end of last year and that's as another Youtube, Google video site only with shittier videos.

      What they are doing is EXACTLY what a patent troll does, they get a patent, wait for someone to infringe on it, wait till they get built up and have a ton of cash (remember apple lost a ton years ago) and then sue sue sue!

      Notice how they wan't 2% of the iTunes sales? why did they wait till iTunes came about to sue? why didn't they sue them before then? their a patent troll plain and simple, they waited this long to claim foul they shouldn't get shit.

  2. I wish I had a patent on Bullshit by ThatsNotFunny · · Score: 5, Funny

    because I'd be a bajillionaire.

    --
    "Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
    1. Re:I wish I had a patent on Bullshit by Kjella · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, I've read somewhere a guesstimate that humans learned to speak properly about 40000 years ago. That should mean the prior art is at least 39999 years old.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  3. Cringely thinks Apple will lose by PapayaSF · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For whatever it's worth, back in January Cringely wrote that Burst does have something worthwhile:

    The reason Apple changed its MacWorld announcements at the last minute was because the company sued little Burst.com a few days before, trying to invalidate the Burst patents. But since Apple sued Burst, Burst shares have gone UP by 30 percent. The market is rarely wrong. Suing Burst was an enormous mistake for Apple, casting a pall on their video strategy and potentially costing the company strategic alliances with networks and movie studios. Apple realizes this now and is struggling internally to find a way to change course and put a positive spin on the course correction. Apple will lose and Burst will win, and Apple won't be able to afford to wait for the courts to decide anything, since time is critical in staking out Internet video turf. I predict that Apple will eventually take a license from Burst, that is UNLESS SOME OTHER COMPANY (Google? Real? Yahoo?) doesn't snatch up Burst first.

    Here's something I've noticed lately: Big companies believe in patents as long as they are talking about THEIR patents. Because Burst is three guys in an office in Santa Rosa, companies like Microsoft and Apple tend not to take them seriously. They forget that Burst spent 21 years and $66 million developing that IP, and the company has code that is still better than anything else on the market -- code not even Microsoft has seen. Unless someone buys the company first, Burst is going to win this and eventually license the world. They are in the right, for one thing, and in practical terms they now have as much money for legal bills as any of their opponents. Apple can't win this one.

    --
    Q: What does the "B." in Benoit B. Mandelbrot stand for? A: Benoit B. Mandelbrot
    1. Re:Cringely thinks Apple will lose by Tim+C · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Burst shares have gone UP by 30 percent. The market is rarely wrong.

      Looks like someone was asleep during the internet bubble.

    2. Re:Cringely thinks Apple will lose by jasonditz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or for that matter, the SCO lawsuit... the stock skyrocketed after they sued IBM... how'd that work out?

  4. Burst Vs Microsoft?! by MacTechnic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is a little ironic to look at how Microsoft initially started the litigation spree for Burst by settling for $60M which makes a litigation warchest for Burst to pursue Microsoft's major competitors in multimedia distribution, i.e. Apple Computer & Akamai.

    It's kinda like how Microsoft initially bought a license from SCO several years ago, and then watched as SCO attempted to IP-attack the Linux community, again a upstart competetitor for Microsoft for Server Operating systems.

    Is there a pattern emerging here, where Microsoft throws in the towel against a lowly firm IP software patents, which indirectly supports Microsoft's ultimate goals. The old adage: The enemy of my enemy is my friend!

    1. Re:Burst Vs Microsoft?! by calciphus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It seems like Microsoft looks at a little company that DOES have some chance of winning a case, and rather than fighting it and letting some court assign a big fat award to them, just pays them off early on, when $60M seems like a big number. Burst can't sue Microsoft again, but since so much of the industry is built off of borrowed technology and ideas, they have just as valid a claim against Apple - which has a much bigger stake in the market - and is much less willing to settle. Take them to court, let the judge think that "Apple has profited illegally off of their IP" and get a big fat settlement. But where to pay for such a long, drawn-out lawsuit? Microsoft's early-on pittance.

      I don't think Microsoft is nefariously "funding" the IP vultures, I think they just realized that they could get away a lot cheaper by settling early on and not having to deal with it. Most people never even heard about the MS v. Burst - but you can bet Burst will whip up a shitstorm about Apple stealing their IP and thus owing the success and health of their company's only profitable sector to Burst's crackpot IP. Apple will look bad, shares will suffer, and then Apple will settle...for more than the 2% Burst originally asked...to make it all go away.

      Has anyone patented "Pulling an NTP" yet? I mean, prior art and nontriviality no longer seem to determine patentability, so someone out there with the time and money to exploit the patent system should.

    2. Re:Burst Vs Microsoft?! by falcon5768 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      heck Win98 Active Desktop/Konfabulator anyone
      which was ripped off of Apple System 6, Konfabulator even willingly admitted they based their idea off the older System 6 apps program. Microsoft of course rips everything off of Apple (cough Vista Cough)
      --

      "Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."

    3. Re:Burst Vs Microsoft?! by saddino · · Score: 3, Funny

      Wow you sure know your history better than I do. I had NO idea that Apple System 6 had a HTML based Widget technology on the desktop...

      LOL. By your own argument you admit that Dashboard ("HTML based Widget technology") is NOT a ripoff of Konfabulator ("XML based Widget technology"). So, which one is it?

  5. Not worthy of a patent by suv4x4 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I went and read some of their docs and went through their technology presentation. What their incredible solutions is: redundant server setup with a separate distributor server that "tells" the client software which of the servers is least loaded, and buffering of video (or what they call it is faster-than-realtime "bursting" and "caching"). That's it.

    They have their right to offer their products on the market, but there's totally nothing worthy of patenting and licensing there, so no wonder both Microsoft and Apple turned them down.

    This is the sad story of a company with an actual product that turned into a patent troll, simply since being a patent troll pays better.

  6. Better than NTP though... by Btarlinian · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It may seem like Burst.com is simply another NTP or patent troll, but I don't think that's really true. They actually did have a product but were driven out of the market by MS and WMP

    And while their technologies may seem obvious now, they may not have been so obvious when they patented them. In fact, during the tech bubble, many though Burst would be another hot company. In fact, they argue that they were driven out of business because windows media player purposely was built to be incompatible with their technology (this is second hand information not verified by me.)

    I'm not sure if Burst.com actually deserves to have these patents or win these lawsuits, but it definitely seems more justified than NTP in suing MS and now Apple

  7. Lawsuit mushroom clouds rise over remains of USA's by NZheretic · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Lawsuit mushroom clouds rise over the remains of USA's Tech industries.

    The USA will fall behind because ever more intellectual property will be locked up behind a multitude of corporations and individuals effectively ruled by lawyers who are more interested in earning legal fees rather than bothering to actually manufacture anything.

    Other Governments and Europe's bureaucracies will not hesitate to forcibly acquire the necessary intellectual property needed get things done for large projects

    Other countries and even Europe's parliament will also not hesitate to adopt more liberal intellectual property structures if you demonstrate that doing so will better benefit their economies as a whole, instead of just a few major corporations.

    The USA administration and even more myopic major corporations will continue to let more and more manufacturing, service industry and development to be off-shored resulting in importing permanent poverty into the USA.

    You want to see the future of the USA? Visit the remnants of Detroit motor city works, Ye Mighty, and despair

  8. This is good, piss off the big companies some more by Nice2Cats · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is a good thing: Every time some little company pisses off some big player like Microsoft, IBM or Apple with some inane patent thing, it pushes the big companies (and their army of Washington lobbyists) one step closer to realizing just how screwed up the American patent system is. Of course it would help if the people in Congress had a clue, but every little bit helps.

  9. software patents by sentientbrendan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The way I see it is that there are currently just too many patentables in computer software. Some reform is needed, such as not allowing companies to patent "operation X, which is old, *applied to* market Y which is new" type patents, which are the real stupid ones. However, the majority of annoying patents like this will go away, because such a mass of prior art will exist, that you can be pretty much guaranteed that someone will have done something like it before unless it is truly inventive. That's not to say that bad patents won't be granted, but it will become pretty easy to get lawsuits like this dismissed with a little research.

    Does anyone else see this optimistic view of the future? Am I just naive?

  10. Re:Cringley: wrong bold assertion, right facts. by goombah99 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In some ways, the lawsuit against Microsoft exonerates Apple. The reason Burst won it's lawsuit against MS was because they had engaged in negotiations with MS and revealed their technology secrets to MS. And because MS's subsequent behaviour convinced the jury MS had negiotated in bad faith as a means of stealing the IP.

    I think we can be pretty sure that 1) MS would not have shared this with APPLE. 2) the MS was doing this to gain a competative advantage in streaming over the fairly well established quicktime standard at the time.

    Thus if Apple copied Burst technology it was at a very high conceptual level, because they woul dnot have had access to the methods like MS did. And arguably, what made Bursts techinology valuable at the time was as a response to Apple's prior art, not because it was such a world-beating technology. That is, if quicktime had not existied MS would not have felt pressured to acquire Busts technology with any alacrity but woul dhave just developed their own.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  11. I actually did development work for Burst by bpeikes · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I worked for a consulting company that helped write their first patents and developed their demos. I wrote one of the first versions of their streaming video server back in 1997 and the patents were submitted before that by my employer. Remember folks, this was way - way back before anyone was even thinking about streaming video or music over the internet, as a matter of fact, back then, you had special video hardware to do the mpeg decoding. In 97 it was impressive to be able to stream multiple video streams on a LAN. I think we had 10 clients streaming full video from our server over 10baseT. Ah, the good ole days of startups.

  12. Re:This is good, piss off the big companies some m by Jtheletter · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This is a good thing: Every time some little company pisses off some big player like Microsoft, IBM or Apple with some inane patent thing, it pushes the big companies (and their army of Washington lobbyists) one step closer to realizing just how screwed up the American patent system is.

    And you really think that if it's these huge corporations that finally push for patent reform it will be a kind of reform that puts the small inventor on equal footing with them? Everytime this sort of patent suit comes up someone posts "Oh goody, when the big players feel the sting they will change the system!" This is kind of a circular defeatist argument. You admit that the status quo won't change until the big companies that in reality hold the power push for change, but at the same time think that change will benefit anyone other than those big companies? The attitude needs to be that the patent system is broken, we ALL are feeling it and WE THE PEOPLE whom it is supposed to serve, not "we the corporations" need to revise it to work for everyone.

    And more than anything else what the patent system needs is a way to successfully use it without having to spend thousands to millions of dollars on third party consulatations and lawyers. Forget all the actual lawsuits you're seeing, those come after a patent is granted; the fact is just to apply for and receive a patent you practically have to feed a family of lawyers. What a joke. I don't need a personal attorney with me at the RMV to successfully apply for a new drivers license, why should I need to do the same just to use the patent system with any chance of success up front?

    --
    -- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --