EOE Concerns w/ Electronic-only Job Application?

Khyber asks: "Jobs seem to be increasingly harder to find in the real world today, and even harder to obtain due to the increased proliferation of on-line-only or electronic-only job applications. I know this firsthand - as today I attempted to apply for a job at Kroger's, only to discover that I had to fill out one of these electronic applications in their 'Career Opportunities Kiosk.' The machine miserably failed to get past the second page of the multi-paged the application. I've asked the manager if there was a paper application to fill out (why do I need to know how to use a computer to stock shelves?) and he has told me that I -must- fill out the application on their broken and defunct Dell Genesis Terminal. Are there legal concerns that I should be looking at, here?" "Kroger's claims to be an EOE employer, however I feel that I am being denied my equal opportunity to gain employment due to the failings of a broken piece of software and hardware, and the refusal by the manager to give me a paper application to fill out, as an alternative. Can this be considered discriminatory to those of a lower education level in their attempt to obtain a job, as well? Are there any laws on the books that give me the opportunity to fill out the application on paper as opposed to digitally?"

Comments

Regulations Regulations Regulations

[PenguinBoyDave]

With all the regs out there now about privacy (Sarbanes, etc.) I'm betting that is what this is about, in addition to most companies using HR systems to do their work. Paper apps would take time to enter, and that costs money.

Re:Regulations Regulations Regulations

[R2.0]

Everone so far is missing the point - companies use computer applications BECAUSE of EEO.

If there is a person taking an application, that person can always be accused of bias. Theoretically, a machine doesn't CARE the race/gender/whatever of the applicant. It doesn't know what that info is, and if it does ask (for EEO reporting purposes)sure as shit the code has been audited/certified by the vendor supplying it.

Their machine was broken. Take it at face value. Believe it or not, you don't have a right to be given a job - only the right not to be denied a job based on certain characteristics. Being a litigious jerk is not one of them.

Re:Regulations Regulations Regulations

[Traiklin]

have you ever filled out one of the online only applications before?

I've filled out 5 of them so far (and not one has even contacted me and two of the places have big ass "NOW HIRING!" signs right where you sign up and in front of the store) and in every instance they all had the same thing in common, they asked what race & gender I was.

Now the computer might not care what skin color or biological organs you are & might have but the machine doesn't determine if you get the job or not, a human being still makes that call (though I doubt they even look at them anymore) so if you mark that you are black or white or any other race & a man or woman it still comes into play, In fact your race comes BEFORE your qualifications on the rest of the application.

Now what makes that any different from brining in a piece of paper and the one doing the hiring decides "I ain't hiring this *Insert racial slur here*" or "I ain't hiring this *Insert man/woman here* and someone filling out an electronic form and seeing that they are a certain race or certain gender and saying the same thing?

so until these online applications get rid of "What race are you" fallowed quickly by "We are an equal opportunity employer!" the race/gender issue will always come into place

Discrimination / lower education level

[SpaceAdmiral]

discriminatory to those of a lower education level in their attempt to obtain a job

Um . . . I wouldn't want to work for a company that didn't discriminate based on education level.

Re:Discrimination / lower education level

[CagedBear]

.So I guess you have already written off a military career..... :)

Last time I checked (early 90's) the military wasn't accepting anyone without a high school diploma or GED. Has this rule changed since then?

Re:Discrimination / lower education level

[Austerity Empowers]

In fairness, there's always a finite probability that you will be fucking shot, stabbed, run over, horsebit, snakewhipped, mugged, mutilated, rape, gagged, bound, drowned, cornholed, blown up, crashed, hit with a frikken jet, crushed by a falling building, or forced to train cheap foreign replacements in any lifestyle.

The military forces you to confront this early, it's a great level set for the rest of your life.

Re:Discrimination / lower education level

[ostehaps]

Actually I think that ideally an employer should discriminate on one thing and one thing only - aptitude for the job (where aptitude encompases all the attributes required by the job whether it be attention to detail, working well with others, willingness/ability to learn new tasks, etc.). Asking about education would not even be legal.

While in utopia that would be nice, most of the parameters you name are unobservable or prohibitively expensive to reveal. You can set tests during the application process, conduct lots of interviews, etc - but all of these are imperfect devices. They are subject to misrepresentation on the part of the applicant, and are costly. Education can be seen as a proxy for lots of desirable employee characteristics, and whilst also clearly imperfect it's a low-cost method.

You may object that most companies conduct interviews etc already, so the additional costs are unimportant. However, if there were no filtering device in the form of education, the number of applicants that companies would have to interview would explode. It's true that with such screening a Gates without a degree might be sorted out, but looking at it from a cost-benefit perspective, it makes more sense for companies to filter by education.

In economics there are some very interesting models, which consider education as a signalling device on the part of the applicant. To the extent that education is more costly (in terms of time, effort, forgone earnings...) to obtain for "undesirable" applicants, the different levels of applicant will differentiate themselves in education. Obviously a simplified model, which doesn't take into account the gain in skills that education gives (a BA in Tibetan culture), but it clearly shows some important mechanisms, and why asking about education should be legal, even in your utopia.

Re:Discrimination / lower education level

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Hell, half the IT job descriptions I've seen were written by some mental-midget in HR who would round-file Bill Gates' app due to lack of a degree.

And rightly so - Bill Gates is a businessman, not a programmer.

What the heck are you talking about?

[pclminion]

You're saying you couldn't complete the application because the terminal was a piece of crap. How is this an Equal Opportunity violation? Are you saying that perhaps an Asian person (or, if you're Asian, suppose an African) might have better luck operating the machine? Your Equal Opportunity has been denied because people of your race, religion, color, or creed have an inherent disadvantage in operating this particular terminal?

Everybody has an Equal Opportunity to operate this crappy machine. Honestly I have no idea what the hell you're going on about.

Equal opportunity rejection

[MobyDisk]

If the machine is broken, then the device is equally rejecting all applicants. On the other hand, if it doesn't work for visually impaired people then you may have a claim.

I'm not sure I understand your story: if the company's photocopier was broken and they couldn't give you a paper form, would you post to Slashdot about it being unequal? Or would you just wait until they fixed it? Did the manager refuse to fix the machine? Is the problem a broken machine or a bad design? If you are critiquing software, maybe a job at Krogers isn't for you. Alternatively, if you tried to be 31337 and broke the machine, then it is discriminating against hackers. :-)

Being a moron is not a disability...

[RingDev]

If the machine was broken, it was broken for everyone. Online applications is the norm at this point, and you'd have to have a really solid position to challenge the company in court. Maybe if you were blind and their online application was a non-standards compliant web page...

Even then, do you really want to work for a company that you had to sue to get a job? Do you think they really want you on staff if they are forced to hire you on due to a lawsuit?

And what the hell are you talking about it being hard to find a job? The nation wide unemployment rate is around 5%, there are a LOT of jobs out there. Likely even jobs that you are qualified for. But YOU have to find them.

-Rick

If the server is broken, then the server is broken

[tepples]

Adding basic mouse clicking and typing skills to the list seems pretty minor.

All the basic mouse clicking and typing skills in the world won't get you past "Connection timed out" or "The document contains no data" even after several reloads.

Probably not a legal problem

[Jerry Coffin]

If their system worked for some people and not others, you might stand a chance legally. If there was a reasonably obvious system to who it worked for and who it didn't, you'd probably stand a pretty good chance legally. As-is, however, it apparently just doesn't work for anybody -- and as long as it fails equally for everybody, chances are they're perfectly fine legally.

My guess is that the manager in question simply isn't very woried about hiring anybody right now. If he was working 60+ hours a week to cover for a short staff, you can bet he'd make sure your application was accepted electronically, on paper, or in just about any other form short of scratched onto the wall of a cave...

Of course, the obligatory disclaimer: IANAL, etc., so take it for what it's worth...

Good luck

[dedazo]

I'd like to see your claim that it's illegal of them to force you to use a computer stand in a court of law. First of all, the application must be designed so that it requires an IQ of 33 to operate (after all, you're applying for a shelf stocking job, right?). Second, you fscking obviously know how to use a computer, since you have a GMail address and submitted your whine to Slashdork. Third, if the machine is not working (and it's not disabled, as you said it can't get past page two) then that's tough cookies for Kroger, since neither you nor anyone else is gaining employment there at the moment. Correct?

Unless you believe you are being discriminated against based on some other factor, like the color of your skin or the fact that you have tatoos over 95% of your body or happen to weigh 400 pounds. In that case (well, in the first one at least) you may have a case. But then if that is indeed the problem you should have specified it to begin with instead of doing the "I'm being opressed because I have to use a mouse" routine.

In any event, believe it or not the effin' job market is pretty darn good right now, so if you have some sort of technical skills (and again, you identified the box as a "Genesis terminal" and seem to be posting to Slashdork so I assume that's the case) I'd suggest you look for something more along those lines.

How could he apply?

[Hoi Polloi]

If I read his issue correctly it seems the problem wasn't he didn't know how to use the kiosk, the problem was the kiosk wasn't working ("machine miserably failed to get past the second page"), nor was the other one they pointed him to ("their broken and defunct Dell Genesis Terminal"). He also commented that the application process seemed to require computer use for a job that didn't require it, not that he didn't know how to use one.

So his problem is with a company not providing a means to apply for a job, which may be discriminatory if they don't provide a reasonable means to apply to the general public.

"Maybe if he figured out how to get the thing fixed (who to call, whatever), or fixed it himself". Stores LOVE it when people come in and start screwing around with their equipment. That would go over real well. Plus, if you know how to fix a piece of equipment you've never seen before on the spot then you probably don't need a job in retail.

You might have a case...

[Tenareth]

If the first page asked your race, and if you picked Black, Indian, or Chinese the next page gave an error, but if you picked Caucasian or Latino it worked fine.

Otherwise... it isn't discrimination, they just have a broken Kiosk.

Jobs aren't hard to find.

[copponex]

Everyone I know who says that they can't find a job are doing the same thing: faxing or e-mailing a resume, possibly submitting something online, and then waiting. Let me tell you something as an employer, sending your resume in the mail doesn't tell me you want the job. Following up with phone calls, in-the-flesh visits, and thank-you notes after interviews will get my attention. If you're fishing for "just something" then you're not the type of employee I want to invest in.

Re:glad they're gone

[Anonymous Coward]

Might make sense if you were applying for a job as a philosopher...

Re:Jumping through hoops *is* the interview.

[drinkypoo]

That was all he really wanted to know, did I want the job enough to jump some simple hoops? or was I a QUITTER?

More like, did you want the job badly enough to let him fuck you around, or would you maintain your self-respect and walk out? Because obviously he wanted someone he could crap on that would smile about it if he kept you waiting for 45 minutes when there was no need for it.

Employees are the most important resource in any company. You get more out of employees who like you and who have self-respect than you do from people who will take any kind of abuse you throw at them.

If I were hiring people I'd like to give them the same test, but call them back after they walked out and went home and have them come back for the real interview. The people who were willing to sit around for ages either have no self-respect, or need the job too badly.

You made your point before the final paragraph

[p3d0]

I'm willing to bet the "make them wait 45 minutes" test has no predictive value whatsoever.

Re:Legal Concerns?

[Firehed]

a cripple could have walked in

Don't be too sure about that...

Wait, is that the smell of Karma burning?