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IBM to Oracle - You Can't Buy Open Source
mrops writes "CNET has up a short article about IBM's reaction to Oracle's recent acquisitions. From the article: 'Handy was responding to comments made by Oracle CEO Ellison to the Financial Times, where he said that he wanted Oracle to control a 'full stack' of software, including the Linux operating system. If Oracle did try to buy a Linux distributor, such as Red Hat or Novell, Handy said 'we'd stick to our strategy of having two or more independent distributors and have to wait and see what happens.'" It should be pointed out, as noted in yesterday's Slashback, that Ellison has no intentions of purchasing Red Hat.
Oracle to IBM: No, but we can buy the people.
Oracle doesn't want to buy Open Source, they want to buy installed bases.
No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
Why can't a company buy an open source project? Bring the developers on board, retain controlling rights, enforce licensing, etc... All OS means is that the code is published. Contrary to (supposed) popular believe, software, in and of itself, has no desire to be 'free.'
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
I could have put something more sexual in the subject, but decided not to.
That would mean becoming innovative, opening themselves up to new ideas, new ways of thinking. Can't have that! Then they might actually be able to compete with Microsoft.
Hmmmmm... my sarcasm detector is going off...
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
When Ellison says "We're not interested in RedHat / Novell right now," he means RIGHT NOW. Share prices rise on acquisition news and fall when those acquisitions fail to materialize. If he says "We're not buying RedHat," then the recent gains RedHat has seen because of the oracle takeover talk will probably go away (AFAIK there are no other suitors.)
Both Oracle and IBM have got it wrong. If you've ever tried to install:
- DB2
- Oracle
- WebSphere
on a RedHat or SuSE , the first thing you notice is...both Oracle and IBM tried to make the installation easy by putting a shitty JAVA GUI on the thing. Two problems with this: it forces you to have to install JAVA and X windows eithier on your server (in the DMZ? I don't THINK so!) or to have to install just the X windows client bits on your sever along with Java...and then bring in a laptop that you attach to your server on a temporary network while the network is offline, yada yada yada....WHY NOT JUST WRITE A FRICKIN' RPM???? HUH? LIKE, ALONG WITH A PROPER DAEMON SCRIPT SO YOU CAN START AND STOP ORACLE, DB2, WebSphere, Etc Etc Etc in a single command-line, in the STANDARD LINUX WAY???? D'ya THINK????? DUH!
A couple of people have tried to write an open-source RPM/daemon script suite around these packages, but of course -- then a new version of the proprietary DB/web service comes out.
And both Oracle and IBM are rolling in dough, why would anyone do this for them for free?
If a sysadmin got the freedom to run Open Source anything, they'll switch to PhP/MySQL and/or PostGreSQL (depending on whether they need triggers or not) soon enough ANYWAY
Oracle could drastically increase its install base in the Linux community just by demonstrating some rudimentary competence in the area of standard Linux server systems software management.
If that's the case, they're both basically right -- Oracle certainly can buy companies (for example) that have teams working on open source projects, and thereby gain a fair amount of control over the direction that project is likely to take. IBM's right as well though. If (for example) Oracle were to buy Novell, others could still do whatever they liked with Linux and ignore Oracle if they chose to do so.
An investment into open source development gives only the power to persuade, not coerce. The power of persuasion, however, should not be underestimated -- especially if the persuasion is an honestly free offer.
The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
Not true
I've scripted (without GUI) installation of DB2, Websphere & Orrible no problemo just by reading the fine manual. You could too.
They get a lot of good packages with the purchase. Are they going to integrate them into Oracle's product offerings? I'm personally not very convinced that they should be using SuSE for an Oracle Linux Server type product. It's a good desktop, but pretty bloated. It would seem to me that the best alternative would be to get a light-weight distribution for free and build on that. Oracle already has an installed base, and I'm sure they could get people to use Oracle Linux on a server that is going ot be purely for database use.
Hell, the only people in the equation that might gripe would be the Oracle DBAs who would face the threat posed by an easier to install and configure Oracle system. Once they have full control over the operating system, Oracle could do a lot to really streamline the process of getting Oracle up and running in a secure way.
Anyone else also wondering if this is not in fact a response to Sun's warming up to PostgreSQL?
While I can't speak for DB2 or Websphere, Oracle RDBMS will be happily installed as a tarball. You only need X for the first install.
You also don't have to install your own copy of java.
If you don't know this much then you've never really touched the Oracle end of this.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
My new catchphrase is "It's not a binary concept". Slavery was a form of contract labor with a non-terminating cotract. When people sold slaves they essentially sold the contract for their labor. When a company buys another company, it buys all the contracts that company has with it's workers.
Oracle, like IBM, Sun and others are still all experimenting with the ways that they can make FOSS development work for them. Oracle is not likely to try to "own" any distribution of Linux, there's no profit or future in that. Instead they, like everyone else, want to set the open standards. Leading on open standards is leading the competiton. Rebecca Henderson, Professor of Management at MIT, has a a great talk on the new hyper-competitive world of open source. You can view it for free through MIT's Open Course Archive: http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/274/
Problem solved. No I don't know the relative values of the companies.
Anybody else remember the skit, I think it was from SNL, that had Bill Gates whistling 2400 baud into a telephone, and at the end he reveals that he just bought a sports team? The punchline is something like "I didn't just buy the team, I mean I bought the individual people!"
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Didn't IBM just buy this opensource project: http://geronimo.apache.org/ and make it http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/websphere/? 1) Take open source software 2) Brand it 3) Profit?
Your Oracle server in the DMZ? Is this common place? I would never think of putting my Oracle cluster in a DMZ. I can't think of any reason for Oracle to be in the DMZ...
Because this doesn't deal with the issue of migrations, etc., or any other scenario where you take into account a "non-standard" file system layout, etc.
Also, how do you deal with multiple oracle homes with an RPM?
Hell, I can't get my Apache install to upgrade properly with RPM's without fscking things up, so there's no way I'm going to trust Oracle updates, etc, to an RPM. (yeah, could be operator error, but it's frustrating and very "non-point-and-click" none the less).
Needless to say, you can very easily install Oracle without X or Java, and you don't need a GUI... you can do a silent install that is scripted.
You can even record your answers in a DEV environment and use that as the source for your scripted installation.
Besides, who in their right mind installs anything in a Production environment, never mind a DMZ, using a manual, GUI-based installer?
$0.02 (CDN)
From: Larry Ellison
To: IBM
SUBJ: Your note to us about Open Source
Dear IBM,
Piss off. I have two Mig jets and a really big-ass boat. I can buy anything I want.
Oraclistically Yours,
Larry
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
This was my initial thought as well.
Except then I remembered that Oracle isn't just databases.
They're also web/application servers, ldap servers, portal servers, email servers, etc.
And they all use the same installer technology.
$0.02 (CDN)
Oh... and then I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
$0.02 (CDN)
I'm with you on the X thing, and with needing Java to install DB2, but how do you expect a Java Application Server (WebSphere) to run without Java installed? If you don't want Java in your DMZ, then WebSphere is not an option for you in the first place.
this is getting old and so are you
blog
Hey...I thought it was funny.
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
"All OS means is that the code is published"
You are only 1/10th correct.
Wrong- Even Microsoft admitted this was wrong.
Now go read up and become an educated Slashbot.
http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php
1) Free Distibution
2) Source code
3) Derived works
4) Integrity of The Author's Source Code
5) No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups
6) No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor
7) Distribution of License
8) License Must Not Be Specific to a Product
9) License Must Not Restrict Other Software
10)License Must Be Technology-Neutral
As usual, a bunch of apologisers...
/ApplicationX directory. I mean who are you to screw with my root filesysem!? Assume you've got a lot of libs. "Can not find shared library xxxxx...". I mean is a basic check for a lib in the setup script that hard? It's a lot easier for you to check than for me to track done libs parent packages. A reasonable init script anyone????? Our pure open source servers generally can have a few related things running on it and everything gets along nicely. Trying to do that with closed source applications generally causes a big mess. A lot of times the vendors won't even allow it. They come and install the OS. Generally a "full install" with 30 ports open. Turn off SELinux. Turn off the firewall. chmod -R 777 /. The server will probably never see an update. Custom /etc/profile. Sometimes creating their own specialized filesystem. Everything must run as root. Weird things like special sleep times between init scripts. "Yes, we support red hat 9 and United Linux 1.0". "So you're going to have to go into the /sys filesystem and modify a few things before you can start the daemon."
While it's not the end of the world, it certainly is very annoying. A lot of closed source software installable on Linux does this crap. They'll do things like create their own
It's almost as if a lot of these companies support linux as an afterthought and completely half ass it. Many times, it's LOAD's more work to install and configure properly. There are some exceptions, but in general, closed source on Linux seems half-assed and more like they are just jumping on the bandwagon.
If an officer ever threatens to taze you, say you have a pacemaker.
I don't think it's that bad to expect Java to be available to install WebSphere, seeing as you need Java to be available to run the damn thing.
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
A sarcasm detector? Oh, that's a really useful inven*POOF*
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Charles Wyble System Engineer
Can you point out examples of their doing this, or is this FUD?
If Oracle bought SuSE, couldn't the SuSE team just start another distribution with the same underlaying content, but a different name?
It's the ultimate scam!
Oracle can take any distro and tune it to their needs. And then launch "the new Orabuntu" (tataraaa) that is just the same distro tuned, period. At the same time they can build packages for any other distro. It would be something like "it runs with Linux. Better if it's with our distro".
DB2 is an RPM install if you cared to look. It can also be started/restarted/stopped and completely administered using command line. Try again next time.
All contracts are contracts of property.
The point of IBM, which seems inescapable, is that any software that has been released as OSS can't be reverted back to an non-OSS business model: as some version of the source and some user base exist on the market, any company with IBM's-like muscle can branch a free version and make it evolve anytime they want.
This follows the predicate: Any useful software is bound to become free (as in beer) once the cost of its development has been amortized. The free (as in speech) software movement is not much more than the social expression of this basic economical fact. Some still imperfect demonstration.
Oracle XE (Express Edition), pretty recent, free, with certain limitations (e.g. max. 4Gb database size), *is* actually installed as a RPM. I did this without problems. Now if only they could manage this for their regular versions.
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 120 chars)
You shouldn't have to run Java to install Java. And given the size of Websphere and the incompatibilities between Java releases, they should include their own.
For multiple versionf of Oracle, you use "/opt" and put it in different version-based locations, just like kernels do for /boot. For multiple copies of it, there' is a fascinating command called "--relocate" that allows certain types of packages to be easily installed to alternative locations.
Do read the man page for the rpm command.
Oracle doesn't want to own a linux distrib. What Oracle wants is a standard hardware interface for its database software. A bare metal install for the database. They tried to do this some years back but it never took off. They would like to have a "Database Appliance". Cuts down on the security issues for them becuase they control everything.. Install and patching is easy for you because it's one product, the Database.. But it doesn't have to stop at the database. You can have an AS appliance... and so on.. The "full stack"
I have.
I also recommend you try using Oracle in a more complex environment (something where you have more than one instance running more than one version), and understand that your whole concept of top-level "opt" directory/versions just doesn't work. There are too many shared services and directory locations for this to work.
$0.02 (CDN)
I have, but it was years ago, and it was very painful. We finally threw out the Oracle server for something much lighter weight that did exactly what we wanted, and was open source, and run on hardware that was not top of the line in every way.
Cool...
Yeah, don't get me wrong, Oracle is a pig of a database when it comes to installation, etc. They've even adopted a common installation registry for their software, among other stupid things.
The problem is that unless you're dealing with a rather simple environment, where you're not thinking too far out of the box, an RPM installer is problematic.
By NOT using an RPM installer, Oracle actually gives me (or, more properly, someone running a more complex, non-typical installation) more choice by allowing me to perform a complicated installation or update.
$0.02 (CDN)
No argument here, the installation nonsense you have to jump through is truly absurd.
this is getting old and so are you
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