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Australians to Get Compulsory Photo ID Smartcard
syousef writes "The Sydney morning herald reports that a new national ID card will be issued in Australia."From 2010 people will not be able to receive government health and welfare payments without a card. People may choose to have other information stored on the card, such as health and emergency contact details which, for example, ambulance officers could use.". Your papers please."
This card is not a full-blown id chip implant, but it is the first step.
I would be weary of the tracking of these cards.
You start people out on a mandatory ID card, then move to mandatory carrying of the card at all times, then you move to tracking the cards remotely, and then your actions/movements are no longer 'free.'
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Without such a card you would be unable to access ANY medical services in Australia. So while it is not "compulsory" for a healthy person, if you were to fall sick you would have a perfectly free choice: get the card or die.
From 2010 people will not be able to receive government health and welfare payments without a card.
That's what they say now. But how long until people who decide they don't want gov't health and welfare benefits are singled out?
"You don't have a national ID card? Why not?"
"I don't want or need gov't health or welfare benefits."
"Why? Do you have something to hide? Guards!"
I know it's a kind of slippery slope argument. But seriously, has there ever been a government in this world that didn't screw up practically everything?
This is a seriously rediculous statement. I understand the need for privacy, however I don't see how this is any more invasive than requiring a drivers license or a state ID or a passport to get certain benefits as well.
There is good reason for requiring identification for certain benefits to ensure that people don't abuse the system. As of right now, the USA doesn't have a "national ID card", however a drivers license is close enough. Police from any state can take your license and request all of your information.
This system not only simplifies that process, but allows you OPTIONALLY to put in more health and contact information to benefit you if you run into problems.
Passports, State ID Cards, Licenses, are all essentially the same thing. What the hell is the problem?
I've debated other Libertarians on this issue, and the main point they can not refute is, "So what?"
In nearly all 50 of these United States, you are required to carry some form of ID, usually a driver's license. Once you cross state lines, your ID is no longer familiar to those who may want to look at it (airport ticket counter, liquor store cashier, hotel clerk, police officer, EMT) and thus becomes easier to forge. A national ID instead of 50 differnt state ID's could help prevent this sort of thing and make absolutely no difference people's lives, as we are all required to carry a state ID already.
I've carried a state ID for over 20 years, and I've never had anyone ask to see my papers.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
We much prefer the American system, where if you get sick, the choice is
i) mortgage yourself in penury
ii) or die.
The funny thing is, can you imagine if passports were a new idea? Just think of the outraged slashdotters that would vent their fury on a scaremongering story entitled "New Compulsory Photo ID required just to leave the country".
Or Driving Licenses: "New Compulsory Photo ID required just to operate vehicles!"
Oh, The Huge Manatee!
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Excellent. After living in Australia for 6 years I've moved back to NZ. Whilst we do occasionally do ridiculous things wrt environmental issues, our general method of governance is much much `pre-9-11' (as people say ^_^). Maybe that's because we're an outdated backwater; but whatever the reason, at least we avoid lunacy like this. In case anybody doesn't know by now, we have also effectively banned any US ship from entering out waters (although how we do that is not something I agree with; we are `nuclear free' which, although prevents any US ship from visiting, also means we are nuclear free).
NZ is sort of like Amiga OS (or perhaps I should say *BSD? ^_~)... secure and free mostly by obfuscation and isolation =^_^=.
The Shoes of the Fisherman's Wife Are Some Jive Ass Slippers
I don't know the half of how 'papers' work
Most european nations have had what you americans would call "ID cards" for decades if not centuries. Actually, they are not called ID cards, but passports. That's a bit confusing because you probably consider a passport something for travel, whereas in most of europe, you have a second (and slightly different) passport for that.
Most europeans don't consider national ID cards (let's stick to that terminology) evil in any way and wonder why you americans make such a big issue of it. We've had them for as long as anyone can remember.
And yes, in some european countries it is mandatory to have your ID card with you when you leave the house. I don't think you'll be arrested for not having it, at least I've never heard of that happening after WW2.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
No.
If you want the government to pay for your health care, you need the card. Right now, you need your Medicare card anyway. So what's the difference?
The problem with these smartcards, RFID, etc. is actually quite simple:
I can't choose not to provide a piece of info that's on it.
If they had a way for me to control which information from them I want to reveal, there would be much less trouble, I'm sure. Then I could have a single ID card with all my financial, medical, etc. info on it, but you only get whatever I explicitly give you.
And no, implementing that in the clients, say programming the doc's computer so it only reads the medical data, is not good enough.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Maybe it's because there's no better way to file this, but this seems to be less "Your Rights Online" and more "Your Rights in the Real World." Just an observation.
Slashdot: 24 hours behind every other site or your money back!
On the one hand, it does seem like a convenient way to hold all our information in regards to medicare, concession cards etc.
On the other, I feel uneasy about having so much personal information about myself stored on one card. I mean no doubt, someone will find a way to gain access to this information if they steal someones card, and once they have, identity theft is bound to occur. Computer chips aren't foolproof. There's bound to be at least one person out there that will be able to break through any barriers that the government try to implement for "security".
It also makes me wonder, if someone doesn't have an ID card yet, and they need welfare payments urgently, what happens? Eg. Holly Housewife, 34, doesn't work, 3 kids, husband is killed in car accident. No life insurance. She needs pension, but doesn't have ID card. How long will she have to wait before getting benefits? Will she have to wait through the process of getting an ID card, and then the process of being approved for payments, or will the government be nice enough to start payments straight away, because it's a desperate situation?
And my guess is, that as time goes on, more information may have to be added to the card, making it more and more like a Bug Brother type of scenario. I mean, it already has enough information on there for it to be that. Plus they say, you won't have to carry it on you all the time. But honestly, nearly everyone carries their medicare and concession cards on them all the time, "just in case". Seeing as this new SmartCard will be replacing those, wouldn't it be stupid to not be carrying it anyway?
I don't know much about the government of Switzerland, but in the US we've now established quite clearly that the government intends to abuse the populace and the common good, hence the constant and rapid erosion of the civil liberties of its citizens. So more tools for such a government (like this card) can rightfully be taken to be of concern. If the government was benevolent, that would cast the issue in an entirely different light.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
As Slashdotters, you'll all be aware that one of the fundamental requirements of a secure transaction is to be able to validate someone is who they say they are. How can you do that without some kind of ID card? Get this - in the UK if you go to open a bank account, they ask you for a gas bill! You can phone up your gas company, ask them to add any name you want to the bill, and then take the resulting bill into a bank and use it as proof of address! Or if you want to claim social security benefits, you just need to take in your birth certificate. But the ink washes off old birth certificates, I kid you not. And yet many people in the UK have an almost rabid passion about their right not to have an official means to identify themselves. Sorry, but I just don't get it.
Luckily, the Lords put a stop to that, and initially at least it will be optional for you to take the ID Card when you get your next passport.
And:
Of course, you will still be charged for it, and all the information will still be logged into the central database whether you take the card or not.
Well quite - this is hardly "luckily the Lords put a stop to it", but rather "Labour got what they wanted anyway". You still have to pay for the card and be put on the database, it's just that you can choose not to be given the piece of plastic. But that's irrelevant - it's not that people have some phobia about pieces of plastic, it's the related aspects that people object to, and these will be compulsory for all passport holders from 2008.
With the way they've set it up, I see no difference between opting in or supposedly opting out, other than to make a symbolic protest.
"And yes, in some european countries it is mandatory to have your ID card with you when you leave the house. I don't think you'll be arrested for not having it, at least I've never heard of that happening after WW2."
I'm no geography whiz, but Colorado is not in Europe, as far as I know.
Thanks for the completely unrealted story though. It was a good read, but you should have paid attention to the part where THEY GAVE HER A TICKET. She wasn't arrested.
So apart from being an entirely different continent, and the lady not being arrested, your point is a decent one.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
It depends on how they're going to be used. Like most things, they could be used for good or evil. It seems like the Australian one might end up being harmless, since it doesn't really contain any more information than our drivers licenses currently do. It is a waste of money, though, since we already have the drivers licenses, and special identity cards for people who do not drive.
The other thing to keep in mind with all of these cards is that if they're convenient for you, they're probably also convenient for identity thieves. You don't sound like you've ever become a victim of identity fraud, but it is something to keep in mind. You never know when you're going to lose your wallet or forget your "everything card"...
I would think that the best thing to do, in terms of security, would be spreading identity across multiple cards so that no card is all-powerful. It's a bit like not using the same password for every website.
How useful are they if you (a) don't care about getting into pubs/clubs, or (b) are well past the age where anyone could think you underage? :)
Answer to mostly-rhetorical question - not very, except when it comes to doing other things for which you shouldn't have to "prove" an age/identity anyway. But when you've grown up in a society with rules, most people adapt to the rules - and come to think of them as perfectly reasonable and normal. Even if they make little or no sense.
From that perspective, I guess you could see an ID card as "useful", as it helps you to more easily negotiate your way through your society's (mostly, if not entirely) unnecessary rules.
however, the difference is that contrary to the title of this topic suggests, the Australian so-called smartcard is not compulsory. It is (or will be) required to claim welfare benefits, which, unless they include simple medicare rebates, won't affect me one way or the other.
You sound like the UK Government - they too have been claiming the ID card scheme will initially be voluntary, because you can choose to give up your passport instead.
This reasoning is absurd - if you are penalised for not having one, then it is not voluntary in any meaningful sense of the word. By that logic, anything is voluntary, because you can always choose to go to prison instead! The only difference here is that the penalty (not having benefits, not having a passport) is something some people may be able to do without, and hence it won't affect them.
Fast forward to 2006 and world is different place. Terrorism has replaced Communism and the many of those same armchair anticommunists are now demanding the very things that they derided during the cold war in communist countries.
Terrorism is an excuse to exert control. We're no safer from terrorists now than we were before we started all these new laws and regulations. In fact, in many ways, we're less safe.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. With no other credible superpower to challenge it, America has become the new Nazi Germany.
-- A concerned American
My blog
Not a big student of history, are you? Mandatory government ID is one link in a chain (a big one), and so is disarmament of the populace. The ability to own guns is an index of freedom, just like the ability to go where you please or associate with whomever you want.
The point is, it's all a gradual progression towards a totalitarian government if left unchecked. Each step doesn't seem like a big deal, and a nanny state provides enough benefits that citizens are lulled into thinking it's a good tradeoff. But in the end you get Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. running the show, and all of a sudden the fact that every citizen is in a big database doesn't seem so fantastic, but by then it's too late.
The fear in the USA is more related to a strong national government taking full control. We have, for longer than our federal government has even existed, taken great pleasure in being a confederation of states and not a single government with political subdivisions called "states." I don't know how Australian federalism (if such a thing exists there) works, so I don't know if the same fear makes sense there. Remember, our nation's constitution was strongly opposed at first and nearly was not ratified because of exactly the same fear.
Most Americans proudly carry an ID card issued by their state of residence, and are happy that full faith and credit must be given to it in other states within the USA. However, many of us dislike one or more of the following:
1. Mandatory carrying of identification documents and mandatory production of them to police when the police have no probable cause to make an arrest. See the Hiibel case that was decided in our Supreme Court not that long ago - a Nevada man was arrested for refusing to identify himself under a Nevada state law requiring him to do so when the policeman made what is known as a Terry stop, meaning one where you have reasonable suspicion (but not probable cause) that a crime is being committed and can confront the suspect about it to give him a chance to either dispel your suspicion or confirm it. The Supreme Court basically said that the law was just fine, but largely because it allowed you to identify yourself just by stating your name to the officer and not producing any documentation of who you are.
2. National ID. The US Constitution does not provide for this. I can see an argument for the federal spending power to allow Congress to condition certain expenditures on the condition that the recipients have a national ID card, but even that argument is on shaky ground.
3. Biometric information on ID cards. A photo and a signature, plus a holograph to show that it's state-issued, is all we want.
4. RFID and the like in ID cards. We do not want our ID to be "visible" to the government without us showing it to them. It's not that we have an evil government - it's that things like this make it easy for an evil government to thrive if it comes to exist.
This is something I've always wondered about: why do you need ID to leave the country? Or is it more acurrately described as needing ID to enter another country? In either case, I am still left wondering as to the purpose of passports. What crimes do they prevent? Who does it help? Why do governments want this sort of information on their citizens?
As for the driver's licenses, that one is easy: you are operating a very large and very powerful automobile that has the capability to seriously injure or kill other people. Of course you should have to pass a test and be licensed to use this sort of equipment, especially considering that most places you will use it are public, tax-funded roads. The driver's license is merely a way of identifying you so that when you are pulled over the police can check with headquarters to make sure you are really licensed.
Nathan's blog
A driver's license allows one to drive, a passport allows you to travel abroad, a credit card allows you by purchase items (and pay for them later), and a medicare card (presumably) allows you access to some form of medical assistance.
Now an ID Card ... hmmmmm. What might I be able to do with that that I can't already do with the items I already own. Nothing springs to mind. I can open a bank account. I can travel on a bus or a plane and I can still drive my car. I can get health care.
What, pray, does an ID Card do for me that isn't already possible?
As someone else responded above, the owning/carrying of the card isn't the worst of it. We're mostly techy people here right. Hands up all those who think this central repository of all our information is going to be ...
a) Ready on time
b) Completed to budget
c) Secure
It's such a huge boondoggle for the various companies scrabbling for the contracts that a lot of people have a vested interest in seeing it through. I have heard (but am unable to find a link!) that the Lab Gov had promised the contracts to various companies before it all got through parliament.
It is going to cost billions, like the Millenium Dome, and be about as useful!
We had ID cards during the Second World War and after the war the Goverment of the day decided we didn't need them anymore. Tell me why we need them now.
Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
handmadehands.co.uk
"unless your are old enough to be on medicare, you don't HAVE to have one of those"
Just so you know, everyone in Australia gets free* healthcare via Medicare. So everybody has a Medicare card.
It isn't equivalent to the US version of Medicare.
* Yeah. Right.