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Avoiding Liability While Fixing Employee PCs?

ellem asks: "The upper management team of my company has made a decision that the IT department will work with employee's home computers and laptops. Despite every possible explanation of liability and the loss of proprietary information, the decision was made in order to satisfy a 'need' that the employees have expressed. Many of our employees are, in fact, independent contractors and could go elsewhere with little impact to themselves. Upper management feels offering this service to our employees will separate us from our competitors, and is so committed to this that they have allocated a special budget for tools, software and new hires to handle this particular segment of IT. However, I am still rather worried about general liabilities. While I can keep the network relatively safe and guard against certain types of file transfers, the fear I have is a tech wrecking an employee's home machine/laptop - whether they actually do or the employee perceives that they did. Are any of your shops offering this type of extra service? Do you have any policies in place to protect your company from liabilities that could spring up?"

30 of 121 comments (clear)

  1. A couple of points. by plover · · Score: 5, Insightful
    First, you should be asking your corporate lawyer the answers to some of these questions. SINSFARL (Slashdot Is No Substitue For A Real Lawyer.) He'll probably recommend things like insurance, etc.

    That said, you may want to have the aforementioned lawyer draft up a legal-looking piece of paper that says "In the event my computer or data is hozared by incompetent employees, I agree not to sue The Company..." bla bla bla.

    I think you probably should look at the technical aspects, too. Establish rules for the fixit shop, such as "Never plug an employee's home machine directly into the company network." Your service shop should have a firewalled safe zone that can get to the internet, but not to your internal network.

    Bring in an experienced repair shop manager. Get someone who knows how to set up and run a safe workbench, and who knows how schedules, policies, etc. work. Have them run as an independent agency inside your company. He doesn't have to turn a profit (duh) but should be responsible for maintaining service levels, providing estimates and setting prices (you're not GIVING away brand new replacement 512MB nVidia cards, are you?) and have purchase authority.

    --
    John
    1. Re:A couple of points. by plover · · Score: 4, Funny
      Well, I orginally was going to write IANAL, but then a case of 'duh!' set in. What kind of person asks legal advice on Slashdot? We need something like SINSFARL; or maybe one of those form letters for Ask Slashdot:

      You posted a(n)

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      question on Ask Slashdot.

      Your question deserves one or more of the following replies:

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      John
    2. Re:A couple of points. by OhHellWithIt · · Score: 2, Informative

      All good points. Also, minimum requirements (RAM, OS version, etc.) ought to be specified. My worst home computer repair nightmares have occurred when the OS is so badly outdated that it's going to take all day just to download the patches, or when the friend/family member has stolen software installed. (My father-in-law now knows that my wife and I will kill him if he ever lets one of his friends install software on his computer.) Or the computer has WeatherBug, Kazaa, and God knows what else installed on it.

      --
      "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
    3. Re:A couple of points. by Tankdagger · · Score: 2, Funny

      I would suggest that if you want to provide this service, outsource it to another company. It appears this organization already uses contractors exetensively, so why not hire someone who can absorb the liability if something goes wrong during repairs?

      --
      Tank..
  2. Special liability of these PCs? by mcarthur · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So what if these are employee's home computers and laptops.

    What liability is there that is greater than an retail Computer fixit shop?

  3. This is easy... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Funny

    1. Maintain a fast server with plenty of storage space.
    2. Get a good disk imaging program to make a full backup before any work is done.
    3. ???
    4. Have updated resume listed on all major job search websites.

    1. Re:This is easy... by auspiv · · Score: 3, Funny

      3.5. Profit!!!

  4. Easy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...Just say no. If it's not yours, or you aren't specifically employed to fix it (by, say, a company), you're better off not doing it. Just about every geek goes through the same early phase: offering to take a look at any sick computer you hear about. But bitter experience teaches you to run screaming from any machine you're not actually contracted to service.

  5. Done all the time! by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Special Liabilities? Yes, go to your local computer repair shop. Pick up one of their service forms with all the legalese and take it in to your corporate counsel and have them copy it. Hand it to the contractor/employee to sign at some point prior to the first time you go to work on their computer.

    You do realize that there are lots of people who actually do what you are describing for a living, right? One upon a time about 10 years ago I managed such a shop. Your resistance to the feasibility of the idea seems to argue against you considering that all you are doing is basic PC work, just like lots of other people in your town do every day. There's nothing special legally in this case about the fact that you have an additional contractual relationship with the people you are doing the PC work for.

    --
    The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    1. Re:Done all the time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
      You do realize that there are lots of people who actually do what you are describing for a living, right?


      You do realize that if you work on a machine and the customer has more political clout than you do within your company, no matter what you say is going to save your ass, right? I can assure you if even a mid-level exec takes his freshly loaded PC home and little Johnny Turnipseed loads CoolWebSearch v113.8 and the machine crashes, if that exec says its your fault, it's your fault. You can do forensics all day long to prove your point and it won't matter.

      One upon a time about 10 years ago I managed such a shop. Your resistance to the feasibility of the idea seems to argue against you considering that all you are doing is basic PC work, just like lots of other people in your town do every day. There's nothing special legally in this case about the fact that you have an additional contractual relationship with the people you are doing the PC work for.


      With a proper contract your personal liability is likely (IANAL) not at stake, I'll grant you that. Your job is. Piss off a politically connected computer illiterate in your company by working on his home machine and having him/her fuck it up in rapid succession and you'll be pounding the pavement for a new job.

      We've been doing this sort of support where I work and it generates nothing but bad karma with the computer illiterates (yeah, we've tried training them). In many companies it will not be the same as running a standalone shop. You get to look at these people every day in the office and the cafeteria after they've dumped their Quicken data and somehow now it's your fault. Don't give them that out.
  6. Simple legal disclaimer should work by Psykechan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's a computer. Use a standard click-through disclaimer.

    Seriously, just get with HR or whomever is in charge of personnel and have a simple disclaimer written up that states that anyone who takes advantage of this waives all rights to sue for damages. Make sure that it covers both the company and the individual contractor performing the task. Include this in the employee handbook or in the information packet that is given out to people when they are hired.

  7. Simple Answer... by mcamino · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Follow the same rules and procedures the big stores do when they service pc's (think Staples, Compusa, and Geek Squad)... get mangement to have the contractors sign a agreement saying "we give up right to sue for lost data and malpractice, we give up right to sue for everything and anything including neglegence blah blah blah"

    And rememind the contractors BEFORE they bring in their pc's that illegal adult materials must be reported to the FBI for persecution.(so if they have a kiddie porn collection dont bring the pc in to get fixed) You wouldnt belive how many customers who would bring in their pc's to me back when i worked at the sweatshop called compusa would hear that warning, pick up their pc, walk out, and come back the next day without the offending files.

    The real liability is dataloss, because it is impossible to defend against if they claim you wipe out 10 months of files (which were never there to begin with) and the going rate for REAL datarecovery (ISO Clean rooms) is like $900 per GB (multiply that by a 160 or 200gb hard drive and you got a major problem)

  8. Punt! by Zadaz · · Score: 3, Interesting
    If your company is big enough to provide this "Service", they have a legal department. Have them whip up something. Of course that will only protect your company, not the poorschmoes who are fixing (non)employee equipment, but any layer would rather go after the entity with more money. At any rate they'll have to write something up to keep people from taking advantage of the system. (How easy would it be to abuse the system to get free components?)

    And this doesn't answer your question, but, seriously: WTF?
    How sadly misguided is this? If they want to give employees and contractors perks, how about something with a little more common sense. Like healthbenefits (for contractors) or gas/travel vouchers. Both are something people would be glad to have and have tax benefits to the company. Or how about spa gift certs or something where there's little liability.

    Alternately, they should subcontract the work out (Clearly they have no problem doing that). Get GeekSquad or something out there to do it for you. Sure, the liability is a headache for you, but I can't believe that any marginally responsible company would take on the infrastructure to do something like this. Maid service for all employees would be cheaper and have less overhead. And I'm sure would be a nice perk.

  9. Liability by Detritus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If one of your techs does wreck an employee's computer, I hope that your response is something better than pointing to a sheet of paper that the employee signed. Even the best technician will do something stupid on occasion, that's how people learn. It's much cheaper to just fix the problem and eat the cost. To do otherwise risks generating a lot of ill will and you may end up paying for it anyway, plus legal and court costs.

    --
    Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
  10. Run far far away by edremy · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The small college I work at used to do this before I arrived. They don't anymore for many of the reasons listed below. It's unmanageable long-term, basically due to scope creep. Sure, you'll fix their laptop when it gets infected with a virus. You'll help them with (obscure program) that has conflict with (driver of obscure program). In fact, you'll spend hour after hour at it, and they'll bring it back the next day after they visited "Spyware 'R Us" for the 37th time. Remember that you'll have *no* control over this hardware and software. If they turn off their firewall because it blocks some site they must must must get to there's *nothing* you can do about it, except pick up the pieces. Remember- wipe and reimage won't work here, since you won't have an image and all their files aren't backed up anywhere else.

    Then they'll wonder why they can't get connected to their cable modem. Guess who will be driving out to their house since you can't troubleshoot that at the office? Yes, this actually became the expectation where I work. IT makes house calls. I wondered if they asked Buildings and Grounds to mow their lawns for them.

    Next, what kind of liability are you going to run when the employee blames you for deleting (really really super important file)? Yes, I know you had nothing to do with the hard disk crash, but tell the CEO's son that when he just lost the first draft of his novel.

    In all seriousness, here are a few suggestions

    • Get a *written* contract for them to sign every single time they bring in the machine along with a detailed description of the problem. Make sure this contract spells out that they are responsible for backups of all important files on the machine, not you.
    • No personal machine can connect to your intranet, ever, for any reason. Block all the ports to anything without a known MAC address and dump them into a space where the only two machines that exist for them are windowsupdate and a site to download antivirus and antispyware tools- everything else resolves to 127.0.0.1 (Check NetReg for a free solution here)
    • Develop a detailed written policy about privacy. Make sure they understand that you aren't snooping, but sometimes finding out information simply can't be helped. Make it clear that stumbling across stuff like kiddie porn will be reported to the cops. Run this past your law folks
    • Keep stats on abusers. 5% of your folks will take 95% of the time. Make sure the powers that be know how much money these 5% are costing them.
    • No house calls, ever. Verizon DSL has tech support- they can bug them.

    Good luck. You'll need it.

    --
    "Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
    1. Re:Run far far away by scoove · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No house calls, ever. Verizon DSL has tech support- they can bug them.

      Thanks. As the senior net tech for an ISP, I really appreciate you dumping these people my way. As if I didn't have enough "Your damn Internet service caused my Microsoft Word to have weird font problems" issues.

      Actually, you had a pretty good post and the feature creep issue is very serious. Best of all, your mention of the 5% troublemakers is dead on.

      We're a smaller non-incumbant broadband provider with 2500 subscribers in a portion of our state. We struggled with growth at first but discovered that by isolating the loser customers from the winners (and encouraging the losers to go to the DSL competition), it totally freed us up to take care of good customers.

      I still get the occasional nasty emails from customers who threaten to leave us because we won't go solve their complicated VPN issue for free or rid their Windows 98 that never saw an antivirus package in its life of great malware nastiness for free. The great thing about my job is that I have the liberty to make the judgment call. I'll actually give the losers the phone number of Qwest or Direcway and tell them I'll even waive the early termination penalty and help them go to the other provider. The shock I get from them being shown the door is incredible. Some quiet down and become more realistic in their expectations, but the majority of that dead-weight 5% storms off and becomes someone elses liability. If you troll the business shelves in Barnes and Noble, you'll find quite a few firms (like Nordstroms) known for exceptional customer service that quickly separate the winners from the deadbeats, and show the latter the door.

      My recommendation to every slashdotter: Ask yourself in every situation you are in as a customer if you are a good customer or a liability to that firm. They have to make at least 12% to 15% on you to pay their creditors, shareholders, the tax man and stay in business. I've left extra money on the table many times to make sure my vendor stayed around and didn't think of me as nothing but a drain. Don't ever be a parasite! If your vendor doesn't do know how to separate good from bad, they're destined for failure.

      *scoove*

  11. Re:First things first: by RobertLTux · · Score: 2, Funny

    no no no you
    1 create the image
    2 check it into a forensic quality workspace
    3 do your scans
    4 forward the evidence to ....

    CHAIN OF CUSTODY MUST REMAIN INTACT

    --
    Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
  12. You're kidding right? by Run4yourlives · · Score: 2, Interesting

    WTF?

    Pardon me but it sounds like you're pulling excuses out of you ass because this is a job nobody in your department wants to do. Your execs see it that way too, most likely.

    Seriously, what if (during a normal days work) your tech dropped a pc on somebody's foot... you'd be liable for that too, do you bring up the concerns about carrying pc's to managment also?

    The company is liable, not the employee... they're obviously willing to accept the risk, so stfu and do your job. Not trying to be an ass, but still, there has to be something more important for you to worry about than this.

  13. Re:Waivers anyone? by topham · · Score: 2

    IANAL

    As I understand it waivers are useless if it actually comes down to a lawsuit. You don't get to have a sheet of paper say your not responsible for something if you're incompetent.

    As you are doing under the instruction of the company you work for, in most places, you can't be individually sued unless you are acting outside your duties. So really, the only thing that has to worry is the company. And likely they are prepared to eat the cost of a motherboard, or hd once in a while. (hopefully, not often).

  14. Re:It would be much cheaper... by arivanov · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I would second that. IANAL so this is a solely technical/financial take on this.

    In an average corporate deployment the software licenses exceed the cost of the computer. Depending on the area you work on this factor is anything between 2 and 10 times for a desktop. The cost of maintaining a windows machine in man-hours per year depends on the number of machines and tools in use but it is pretty much close to the cost of the computer (once you add up AV, Anti-Spyware, etc). So on, so fourth.

    It is not worth it financially. Numbers do not add up. The saving and convenience will be eaten up.

    That is besides all the AUP and "my kid installed the spyware" crap.

    --
    Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
    http://www.sigsegv.cx/
  15. Amen. by artifex2004 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When I started on the bottom rung of the ISP ladder in the 90s, I was doing dialup support. We only supported helping customers set up their DUN (or PPP or SLIP, etc.), DNS, install a web browser from FTP if they didn't have one and didn't want us to mail them a CD, and set up any one of a small palette of email clients to get mail from our servers. We later expanded it to tell people how to upload to their web space, when we added that. Oh, and the name of our NNTP server, if they asked. Officially, that was it.

    Of course, ignoring the rules and accepting the calls from clueless clients on dialup who also had T3s with us, handed off by our veeps and prez, were how I climbed the ladder, started supporting broadband before getting trained, and eventually became a "customer engineer" (network engineer) :)

    However, times have changed. You're an ISP, not their personal tech support. If it's not related directly to their connectivity through you, it's not your problem. Seriously. People aren't totally clueless about the boundaries of support any more (I'm not sure most of my "special issues" ever really were) and you've hit the nail on the head about the margins being such that it's not really worth it. If you don't have calls waiting, and the customer is really nice, sure, be the hero, and feel better for it afterwards. But don't let anyone demand or guilt you into anything your company hasn't promised. I've even encountered people who have done serious damage to their systems, and wanted me to help them outside official bounds, with their intent being that they would later claim that we wrecked their systems, and should pay their consultants for them. Just another thing to remember, when someone asks you to support their horrendously complicated issue :)

  16. Data Privacy by baadger · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Personally i'd be more worried about data protection than hardware failure or human error. You'll have access to employees and colleagues PERSONAL data, which is different from business machines where what personal data anemployee puts on the machine is pretty much at their own risk.

    I wouldn't be comfortable having access to that data. You might not be personally liable for damages but if a fellow employee makes the case to your employer that you have abused their trust you could soon lose your job.

  17. Outsource IT by rmckeethen · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Instead of running this home computer program in-house, why not just outsource the job to a local or national computer repair shop? That way, you can let someone else worry about the liability issues. As an added bonus, any standard computer shop will have far more experience in dealing with the kinds of problems that home computers typically encounter than you might have. That fact alone could easily make outsourcing a cheaper proposition then running the show on your own. It's definately food for thought.

    In addition to these obvious advantages, outsourcing also allows you to accurately track the costs of the program and draw your budgets accordingly. You and your boss can sit down and allocate each employee a certain dollar amount of gratis tech support, which will avoid the problem of Sue in Accounting bringing her desktop computer in every day for a month so you can wipe out the latest spyware her son aquired while searching for Internet p0rn. Also, you can offer special services with an outsourced program, like in-home system repair for CEOs or, if you work with a national chain, remote repair services for the sales team.

    Finally, you should consider the tax issues you could run into if you keep the program in-house. Technically, the type of program you describe could be seen by government tax collectors as employee compensation. That means someone is going to have to track who receives what services, because the government is surely going to want its cut too. With outsourcing, you sidestep all of these problems and are left to concentrate on your primary mission -- maintaining the corporate IT infrastructure.

  18. Beware of Software Licensing Issues by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Make sure you have a policy that very clearly establishes (in absolutely no uncertain terms) that you do not install unlicensed software on the machines, no matter who tells you to. Invariably, you will get some guy from accounting coming in demanding that you install Photoshop on his home computer "because he needs it for work." When you mention that you can't install unlicensed software, he'll go tell his boss, who will then tell you "to just do it." Nobody out there seems to give a damn about licensing issues except for the guy responsible for it. Everyone else takes the view of "well, we have a CD, so it's okay to put it anywhere." The one plus to all of this is that if you ever decide to take off, you can always put in a friendly call to the BSA... : p

    --
    This guy's the limit!
  19. Opinion from an Independent Contractor by Aceticon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I would rather that the IT department of wherever i'm working at the moment doesn't touch my personal machine thank you very much!

    Also, it sounds suspiciously like the first steps from management to get employers to use their own machines for work - a big no-no.

    Furthermore, if your management wants to retain those employers that are both highly qualified and highly mobile i suggest flexible working hours, little or no overwork (or maybe pay-per-hour), a location that's easy to access via both car and public transportation and a proper work environment (3-6 persons rooms, no cublicles, plenty of elbow room).
    If you're hiring contractors and then sending them to work at the customer's site there is little you can do to retain them - it doesn't take long for a contractor to figure out that they're best served by removing the middleman.

    Beyond that, i know for a fact that one of the most important ways of streamlining the systems administration/support group work is to standardize the work machines (both HW and SW) so that for example, fixing a HW problem is just a question of backup/change-machines/restore. Doing that is simply not possible when it comes to maintaining the employer's personal machines.

    If they're really keen on wasting money in this half-baked idea, they should outsource repairs/support of personnal machines to a company that's speciallized in selling those services to the general public.

  20. Keep track of time spent by nizo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Keep careful track of time spent on working on "non-company" PCs; if your boss wonders why you aren't getting work done, show him the numbers. Hopefully this won't impact your job much, but if it does you should let the pointyheads now how much time this leeches from your day. They are pretty good at understanding "we spent 40% of ellem's salary fixing employee's home computers".

  21. Bad idea by Sloppy · · Score: 3, Informative
    It's a bad idea, but only because getting into "computer support" is generally a bad idea. So many people these days have problems that basically just can't be fixed by any technician, and thus are guaranteed to end in unhappiness for everyone involved:
    • They run MS Windows and these boxes just tend to "magically" degrade unless periodically re-installed. Except you can't do that because the user will lose something, because they don't have backups, original distribution media with which to reinstall applications (or even the OS itself), registration keys, etc.
    • They run applications (MSIE, MS Outlook, MS Word, MS Excel) which in turn are vectors by which other malware comes into the system. You can't tell a user "Ok, I made it so that your machine is secure now," when the user has the habit of running MSIE to look at websites on the Internet(!) or is in the habit of loading untrusted data+macrocode into MS Word. (And of course they do these things while logged in as an administrator.) When things go wrong again, these people always complain later that you didn't really fix their problem. It's not like you can tell users to stop shooting themselves in the foot.
    Legal department can care of the liabilities. The real thing to think about is: does anyone who does generic PC support, really want more customers? And these people you're talking about, aren't even paying customers. Holy crap, what a great way to lose money and make everyone hate you at the same time.
    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  22. Couple options by Glamdrlng · · Score: 2

    1, The company could supply a company-owned PC to the contractors. That way there's some semblance of standardization and you're not supporting every device on the shelf at Best Buy.

    2, Virtualization is an option. Use a Xen, VMWare, or Virtual PC solution and you can just put out minimum requirements for a user's home machine, and you get your management to agree that the IT shop only supports the virtual box.

    3, Get creative about ways to accomplish management's objectives without saying "No". Maybe you can limit your scope of support to company provided applications and get a statement signed by each user that they're responsible foreverything besides applications x, y, and z. Or maybe you can limit support to web-based apps that you guys host.

    4, Find a different job. No, seriously. It sounds like there's someone in the company with a job title of CxO that isn't listening to the managers who work under him/her. If that person or people aren't listening to you on this one they likely won't listen anytime you give them advice. Not a good corporate culture, imo.

    --

    Yes, my only tool is a hammer. And you're starting to look like a nail.
  23. Re:Backup. by toddestan · · Score: 2

    That won't always help. Say they come in, and say the computer won't boot. You fire it up, and some virus has trashed the harddrive. They may still try to blame you when you have to tell them "Sorry, looks like all your data is gone."

  24. Taxes by John+Hasler · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is going to be a taxable benefit. You are going to have to report the value of the service as taxable income to each employee and do appropriate witholding.

    --
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