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NSA Spying Comes Under Attack
maotx writes "The NSA's no-longer-secret surveillance program came under a two-pronged attack this week on both political and legal fronts. Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania threatens to cut funding to NSA's spying program if President Bush's administration does not come clean on how it works. Separately, two hearing dates have been set for a lawsuit that seeks to prove that AT&T illegally cooperated with the NSA and violated federal wiretapping laws in doing so. Sen. Specter emphasized that he doesn't want the issue to fade into the background, saying that he'd like to see 'public concern and public indignation build up.'"
The public doesn't care. They have their Idol, they have their gas guzzingly SUV. What do they care that the president is the one breathing heavy on the other end of the line.
Personal liberties? What are those?
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
So if Arlen Specter ran with George Bush as his Vice President, would they be Bush 'n Specter?
Sen. Specter emphasized that he doesn't want the issue to fade into the background, saying that he'd like to see 'public concern and public indignation build up.'
Sadly, like most things in the US, all that will build up is public apathy. This is the same apathy we see every year with laughingly low voter turnouts. Many people in America are perfectly happy not knowing what is going on and sadly enough have no clue the NSA has been spying on Americans. Those who do know are often perfectly happy to say, "They are only listening to the terrorist. They are just trying to keep up safe."
The majority of people in America are too stupid to know what this means or just do not care what it implies. If they feel a bit safer, they are more then glad to hand over every last civil liberty, until we are nothing more then a military state. Our country has come a long way since Ben Franklin said, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
And we should care, why, exactly?
Because a senator is making a little noise to the public, increasing awareness, and pointing out how that what the NSA, ATT, and the Bush Administration did quite possible violates our Constitution?
Who cares if it is election time or not? Just as long as progress is being made.
I'm a virgo and on Slashdot. Coincidence? Yes.
The constitution was designed to protect us from the mob rule of people that simply don't care about being spyed on as they "have nothing to hide." If it was up to "the people" we'd get rid of most of the bill of rights and our natural freedoms. Politicians pandering to the people got us into this mess, I suspect pandering to them now isn't going to help. Sometimes defending constitutional principle demands standing up against the people, but few dare tell the electorate what they need to hear because they are too busy telling them what they want to hear.
Because the President violated his oath of office?
He swore to uphold and defend the Constitution. Allowing domestic wiretaps without a warrant is a violation of said oath.
And the warrants would have been easy to obtain, including the fact that they're available up to 72 hours after the fact.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Nah...heavy breathing has been outsourced to India.
We should care because even biased people with an obvious agenda can be right sometimes.
A political posture by a RINO Senator in an election year.
Specter isn't do for re-election this year, unless I missed something. And I will admit I am a bit lazy today, but why do you think he is a RINO? I seriously do not hope it is solely based on the fact that he is opposing something that our control-everything president started.
As for your second point, I am not a huge fan of the EFF most days, but I really think you are a bit off there too. Since I used up my mod points, can someone please mod the parent Troll or Flamebait please?
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
ProofReading Markup Language - and yes, I find typos.
The only way the attitudes will change is if impeachment is successful and heads roll along the line. Til then, the mouth-breathers will continue to support this administration and their crimes.
Blowjobs & hiding it from your wife (and the public) or raping civil liberties, massive debt, illegal wars and profiteering - Which do you think is more of an impeachable offense?
They watch stuff and record it.
Do I get a consulting fee?
Because your rights as a citizen of the United States of America should always have a higher priority than your loyalty to any political party. Always.
This sig intentionally left blank.
Since we aren't allowed to see all the laws governing the behaviour of the NSA, why should we assume that their spying is illegal?
Bigger Issues? How about:
This government says it can seize US citizens and subject them to secret military tribunals.
This government says it can make you not a citizen by simple declaration without evidence.
This government says it can rape, torture and murder suspected terrorists.
Now add all that up: Any US President can say you are a terrorist, kidnap your whole family in the middle of the night, and have your kids raped to death in front of your wife to make her tell where you are hiding. And Gonzalez will say it's all legal, if anyone ever finds out about it.
That's the Novus Ordo Seculorum of George W. Bush and his Congress. As Orwell predicted, a hobnailed boot stamping on a human face. Do you right-wingers seriously want to grant total power to whoever's in the White House? What about if it's your evil arch-nemesis Hillary, or some Kennedy apparatchik?
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the 'wiretapping' isn't actually 'phone wiretapping.' It's going to be something else. What? Who knows.
Why?
circumstanstial evidence:
1) It was references as "communications." That could be friggin anything.
2) internal legal opinion saying spying method was legal when wiretapping already has well established rules. importance? Someone is probably splitting hairs, but getting such an opinion probably means they found a loophole. i.e. it's not a phone or something minor like that.
3) how it's played out in the press: "Bush is spying illegally" "No we're not" "Yes you are, your wiretapping" "What we're doing is legal and we're not going to tell you about it for technical reasons that might give it away." "So you are wiretapping" "Uh, guess you caught us, blah blah blah" importance? It may or may not be wiretapping, but the administration is happy to let everyone argue that it is. Can everyone say 'diversion?'
I have my guesses what it could be, but I'm staying mum. Why? Because it might actually be legal and doing some good and if I guess right, the eye of Sauron starts lookin' my way out of spite. Unlikely, but not worth it.
So in conclusion, uh, you didn't read anything. It was all a dream....
The world is made by those who show up for the job.
Too bad we can't cut funding for all "black" projects in the Department of Defense while we're at it.
Please help metamoderate.
until he retracted his comments. cutting the purse strings would be a nice way to force this little police state program into the light. god, let's hope the democrats win a majority in the fall. the republican party is out of control.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
How is it that every time one of these "NSA Surveillance" articles pops up, nobody chimes in about FISA Court? (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act)
All you tinfoil hat people need to read this pdf document.
Some talking points:
Page 3: "In so doing, the Court of Review recognized that the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, "as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information."
More Page 3: ""perhaps most crucially, the executive branch not only has superior expertise in the area of foreign intelligence, it is also constitutionally designated as the pre-eminent authority in foreign affairs. The President and his deputies are charged by the constitution with the conduct of the foreign policy of the United States"
Page 4: In addition, substantial authority indicates that the President has inherent constitutional authority over the gathering of foreign intelligence--authority that Congress may not circumscribe. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review suggested that, even after FISA, the President possesses inherent constitutional Authority that FISA could not limit.
The list of quotes goes on
So, for all you people wondering why the hell nobody has got any legal dirt on all these 'illegal activities', you need to read your history book. Its come up before, FISA court shot the president down, FISA court of review shot FISA court down, and the Supreme Court Won't even hear the case because its been settled already. This is all democratic dragging through the mud.
/rant off
You can find thousands of links in Google. Just do searches for
"Ehsanul Islam Sadequee"
"Yaser Esam Hamdi"
and
"abu gharib"
Russ Feingold of Wisconsin. The one Senator to vote against the Patriot Act. The Senator to call for the censure of Bush over the whole wiretapping thing in the first place. If anyone's the One Good Senator, it's Feingold.
If other reasons we do lack, we swear no one will die when we attack
Perhaps you're right that the administration's only goal is to fight terrorism. Sadly, that doesn't mean those will be the only effects. Precedents are being set down that will be available for use by future administrations.
It's all about trust. You may trust the current administration, but do you trust an unchecked government in general? Would you trust your brother to install a closed circuit television to watch your house while you're away? Probably, but what happens when your brother is replaced by the perverted old man who lives next door? Still so trusting?
Perhaps, just perhaps, it would be best not to install that camera afterall.
And (under Fisa) the warrent can be obtained after the actual interception ... the warrant is required to use the wiretapped evidence, not obtain it. The administration is actually saying that seeking a warrant after the intercept would somehow delay it.
Furthermore, under your example, what Intel can be garnered from reading 1,000 emails about humus, how many translators do you have, how many agents to scour through 1,000 messages about humus hoping for that one that breaks the code and makes one realize that humus is an attack?
By monitoring everything the NSA would not only infringe on our rights, but would limit its ability to hunt for the right information. There has to be a third way.
Anyone who whines about being modded down should be.
Yeah, those dastardly anti-Bush Republican committee chairs. Always out to destroy the President and embarrass his party at all costs, particularly in an election year.
Never a better time to donate or join.
you had me at #!
The NSA's no-longer-secret surveillance program came under a two-pronged attack this week on both political and legal fronts. Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania threatens to cut funding to NSA's spying program if President Bush's administration does not come clean on how it works. Separately, two hearing dates have been set for a lawsuit that seeks to prove that AT&T illegally cooperated with the NSA and violated federal wiretapping laws in doing so. Sen. Specter emphasized that he doesn't want the issue to fade into the background, saying that he'd like to see 'public concern and public indignation build up.'"
Translation from Washington speak: Sen. Specter delayed real action on the President's illegal spying program again, citing lack of public concern and public indignation. "I've got my finger in the wind, but I can't tell which way it's blowing," the Senator said.
Don't expect Specter to go anywhere with this inquiry unless he is dragged there kicking and screaming. He's just threatening to threaten to be a threat.
Thank the EFF for suing AT&T. It could take a long time (remember SCO v. IBM?) but at least someone could get arrested. The fine for FISA violations is up to $10000 per violation, so AT&T might be in for the punishment of a life time for colluding with the illegal program.
Q: What did the comedian say to the crowd?
A: If I knew, this joke would be funny.
Wiretap the Congressmen, the real criminals :)
Let's be reaonable here. A proposal, even a "good" one, has only a chance to pass when the majority of the ones voting is in favor.
Now, if I KNOW my proposal has no snowball in hell chance, I can propose whatever I want. I could propose to freeze funding on military, if I feel the general population is against more weapons while I know that the majority of the congress is in favor of spending for guns. Even if I want to buy more artillery myself.
That way I get good press (remember, elections in Fall), people will believe that I'm the "good" guy, the voting itself isn't covered in the news and everything stays the same.
Except that the general population thinks that I (or "we", as in, "my party") wants to do what they want. While doing what we want.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Yes, everyone should stop bitching and moaning until we have as few rights as North Koreans. Then it's ok if people start acting like drama queens.
>why should we assume that their spying is illegal?
Because they didn't submit to the (minimal!) oversight of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
This government says it can rape, torture and murder suspected terrorists.
Last I heard, the power to strip American citizenship by fiat was still only a proposal
This government says it can seize US citizensbut military tribunals have been reserved for non-citizens.