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What's Missing From File / Disk Encryption?

lockDrive asks: "Every month, we read a news about personal information leak. Most of the time, either a laptop or a hard disk that contains sensitive information is stolen from a government or corporate office, and the data are not encrypted. Recently, Department of Veterans Affairs had lost a laptop which contained confidential information for 26.5 million veterans. The data were not encrypted. There are many products that provide a solution to such a problem. Microsoft Encrypting File System (EFS), which comes with Windows 2000 and later, encrypts data in a file system and seems to have a decent key recovery system in Windows 2003 Server CA. Products like SecureDoc and DriveCrypt encrypt an entire disk. I have tried some of them and they are not that difficult to use. What is holding people who handle sensitive information (government, health-care, insurance ...) back from encrypting their data? Are the products still too hard to use? Are they concerned about performance loss? Are they not convinced with the security gain? Are they just not adopting the technology quickly? Is there anything missing in the technology?"

177 comments

  1. Time by suso · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Time is what is needed. :-D

  2. encryption is a speed bump. by ecalkin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    it will slow people down. maybe long enough to recover the data or somehow make it less useful (change ids, passwords, etc). even good encryption will eventually fail. the best you can do is to make it difficult.

        on a positive note, someone suddenly looking for breaking tools might catch some attention. on a negative note, something encrypted tends to be a big red flag that says 'look at me, i was important enough to protect'.

        and one final thought: it you look at the care and attention that people pay to to security, it would not surprise me if most encrypted systems would be compromised by user stupidity (social engineering).

    eric

    1. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by sirket · · Score: 1

      Exactly how do you propose to get at a disk encrypted with a 256 bit AES key? or a 448 Bit BlowFish key?

      -sirket

    2. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by drsmithy · · Score: 3, Insightful
      it will slow people down. maybe long enough to recover the data or somehow make it less useful (change ids, passwords, etc). even good encryption will eventually fail. the best you can do is to make it difficult.

      Note that when "eventually" is a timeframe measured in tens to hundreds of years, that's probably good enough for just about anyone.

    3. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by ResidntGeek · · Score: 1

      "Hello, Director? This is Steve Smith from Network Operations. We're just updating a configuration file on everyone's machine, there was a problem with data security that we need to fix right away. Could we get your password real quick? It won't take more than a minute, and you won't be deprived of service during the update."

      --
      ResidntGeek
    4. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple. You just get Chloe from 24 on the case. She'll interface some ports to an algorithm or something. With a self-defending Cisco firewall, just in case.

      Yes, my tongue is firmly in my cheek, but don't forget that all average people know of cryptography is how it appears on the latest thriller. The popular viewpoint is that if you are a whizz-kid who is good with computers, you can simply write an algorithm to crack encryption in a matter of hours. This is because, to average people, computers are mystical things beyond their understanding, and, as such, anybody who shows the slightest bit of knowledge is automatically raised to god-like status. And, being gods, cracking encryption is trivial.

      What they think is "cracking encryption" is things like hitting escape to bypass the password prompt on Windows 9x.

    5. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by Jerf · · Score: 0, Troll

      Only in Hollywood can a brilliant physicist sit down and crack encryption in five or ten minutes, no matter how strong.

      Out here in the real world, you're not going to crack correctly-applied encryption in your lifetime, even if your Bruce Scheier, the guy who wrote the book on encryption.

      A lot of encryption is misapplied, but short of leaving the password on a post-it note on the machine, or leaving the machine on all the time, full-disk encryption is pretty easy-to-use.

    6. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by sirket · · Score: 1

      Just the act of counting from 1 to 2^256 at a rate of 1 trillion keys per second would take approximately 2^191 years (3 x 10^57).

      That's 3,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years.

      This is WAY longer than the universe has been in existence and probably longer than it will continue to exist in the future. That's just counting the keys. Actually testing them would probably slow your key rate down significantly.

      The math as I see it:

      1 trillion keys per second = 2^40

      2^40 * 86,400 * 365 = 3.4 x 10^19 keys per year

      - or 2^65 keys per year

      2^256 keys / 2^65 keys per year = 2^191 years (256 - 65 = 191)

      - or 3 x 10^57 years

    7. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by sirket · · Score: 1

      This is a training problem and it will not work in the company I work for- but we take security pretty seriously.

      -sirket

    8. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by ResidntGeek · · Score: 1

      Most organizations don't. Even if they do, 50% of the population is below average. Almost every government and corporation has at least 1 idiot.

      --
      ResidntGeek
    9. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by dwater · · Score: 1

      However, correct me if I'm wrong, but these numbers are probabilities.

      It could be that your first guess would work. It is unlikely, but possible.

      It is just as unlikely that it will be your last guess that works.

      --
      Max.
    10. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Simple, first kidnap you and your kids. Then slowly torture one of your kids to death to prove I am serious. After that you would do anything, even give up the key/passphrase to save your other kid. I am sure you can come up with several other methods that would work for people without children.

    11. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by Nutria · · Score: 3, Informative
      Out here in the real world, you're not going to crack correctly-applied encryption in your lifetime,

      You'd better re-think that bold assertion...

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Encryption_Stand ard#Security_and_cryptanalysis
      The feasibility of cracking DES quickly was demonstrated in 1998 when a custom DES-cracker was built by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), a cyberspace civil rights group, at the cost of approximately US$250,000 (see EFF DES cracker). ... The machine brute-forced a key in a little more than 2 days' search; at about the same time at least one attorney from the US Justice Department was announcing that DES was unbreakable.
      But it's only DES, you say!!! So. It is a correctly-encrypted text, and it was cracked in 56 hours.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFF_DES_cracker
      Six months later, in response to RSA Security's DES Challenge III, in collaboration with Distributed.net, the EFF used Deep Crack to decrypt another DES-encrypted message, winning another $10,000. This time, the operation took less than a day -- 22 hours and 15 minutes.
      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    12. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by muhgcee · · Score: 1

      My company makes software for Windows that does just that (256-bit AES key).

    13. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by Bazzargh · · Score: 4, Funny

      Simple, first kidnap you and your kids. Then slowly torture one of your kids to death to prove I am serious. After that you would do anything, even give up the key/passphrase to save your other kid. I am sure you can come up with several other methods that would work for people without children.

      I keep one of the twins, Alice, in the firesafe to prevent this kind of attack. Bob is kept offsite as a backup.

    14. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by v1z · · Score: 1

      Even if this type of attack [using social engineering to get the user or company to provide the password/key to the encrypted data] might be effective against many users/companies -- it requires more interaction than simply stealing a laptop, and leaves evidence (such as transmission logs for telephone/email/fax used in the attack).

      At best, it allows tracing the attacker in additon to keeping the data safe, at worst it has slowed down retrival of files.

      It might also be enough to prove, if the offender is caught, that they tried to access restricted files (as opposed to merly taking and keeping an abandoned item, for instance). Keeping a found item is a very mild offense, compared to a charge of industrial espionage.

      In short, there are many reasons to use device encryption, even if it isn't a magic bullet.

      It's the same with locks -- almost everyone have breakable windows in their house -- a locked door does *nothing* to keep a determined burlgar out. But it might make proving burglary easier, and also discovery of burglary easier. And it might even work as a deterrent.

    15. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by Jerf · · Score: 1

      Sorry, using DES has been not "correctly encrypted" for over a decade now. 3-DES wasn't pulled out of somebody's ass for no reason, and thats not trustworthy either.

    16. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by v1z · · Score: 1

      Well, it's pretty simple. According to EFF: http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Crypto/Crypto_misc/DESC racker/ the network of over 100.000 machines and the custom des-cracker was able to try 256 billion keys a second.
      IE, average time they'd take to crack a given message with a 56-bit DES key is: (2**56) / (245*(10**9)) /2 = 147056 seconds (or about 40 hours). That's how long it takes to try half the 56 bit keyspace.

      They were lucky and hit the right key in half that time again.

      Now, if you tried that, with a 128 bit key:
        (2**128) / (245*(10**9)) /2 = 694453810042731558088519607 seconds, or about 22005913315421057024 years. Can you see a difference between the two?

    17. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by muhgcee · · Score: 1

      Mod me down...I misread the parent :-)

    18. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by baadger · · Score: 1

      The length of the key is insignificant if the algorithm or application is sufficiently pants.

    19. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by Scaba · · Score: 1

      Nitpick: You meant to say that 50% of the population is below median.

    20. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by ResidntGeek · · Score: 1

      Firstly, the median is one of the three commonly used averages. Secondly, intelligence is almost normally distributed (the number of extremes on the upper end is higher than the number of extremes on the low end - thank you, natural selection), so if you're using the mean as the average, more than 50% of the population is below average and the point still stands.

      --
      ResidntGeek
    21. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1
      IQ tests are normalized. 100 is the median. 100 is the mean.

      In the case of a non-normal distribution, such as income, your point is valid.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    22. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1
      If the keys are generated at random you'd need to try 1/2 of them on average.

      So 32768 kajillion years becomes merely 16384 kajillion years, on average.

      Computers keep getting faster, but huge random keys are hard.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    23. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by peacefinder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think your scheme may have a data integrity problem. It seems unlikely that Alice and Bob are identical copies, so you seem doomed to some data loss in that sort of attack.

      (Or maybe you're just using some unusual naming scheme for your kids.)

      --
      With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
    24. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by mkw87 · · Score: 1

      Well I'm not sure about the AES, but I'm pretty sure I have a net that will handle that blowfish.

      --
      Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig in mud. Soon, you realize the pig is dirty, and he likes it.
    25. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by Scaba · · Score: 1

      True, but OP wasn't talking about IQ tests.

    26. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1
      Here's the OP:
      Even if they do, 50% of the population is below average. Almost every government and corporation has at least 1 idiot.

      I assumed OP meant below average intelligence. I guess it could refer to body mass or hair length, but idiot refers to intelligence. Intelligence is measured by IQ tests. So I decided to have fun with a correction to a correction.

      Mental deficiency used to be divided into the following sub-classifications, but these labels began to be abused by the public and are now largely obsolete: Borderline Deficiency (IQ 70-80), Moron (IQ 50-69), Imbecile (IQ 20-49 and Idiot (below 20). Mental deficiency is now generally called mental retardation.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    27. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just sleep around a lot, and dare anyone to find the kids from my real wife mixed in with all the others I don't care about.

    28. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by jd · · Score: 1
      I believe "correctly encrypted" would be more correctly written as "will not be extractable by brute-forcing the key of an otherwise uncompromised encryption algorithm, within the next century, assuming classical computation and the continuation of Moore's Law, by any means affordable to a person or organization in the income bracket of greatest concern" - only, the latter is a lot more wordy and doesn't really add that much.


      Yes, you do need all that. A compromised encryption algorithm allows a person to reduce the effective key length and thereby deduce the actual encryption key used comparitively quickly. You've got to assume classical computers - with one exception - as quantum computers should be able to go through all the possible keys exponentially faster. You've also got to assume a price bracket, because an infinite amount of money would allow you to do just about anything.


      The one exception is for One Time Pads. These decrypt into EVERY possible string of equal length to the encrypted string, so it is totally impossible to tell which solution is the right one. One Time Pads are unbreakable without the key. Totally. It isn't even a question of nobody having a means of breaking them, it can't be done. The problem is that the key has to be as long as the data you are trying to encrypt. It trades one problem for another of equal size. So although they are theoretically perfect, they are also practically useless in most cases. Oh, and the "one time" bit is for real - the key, to be secure, can only be used once. You have to make a new key each time, with each key being genuinely random - pseudo-random isn't random enough.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    29. Re:encryption is a speed bump. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be the case. Due to some of the astronomically brilliant people we've had, and continue to have, I would think the median intelligence would be well above the mean inteligence.

      Remember that intelligence isn't "capped" at the upper end per-say, and all it takes is one stupendously brilliant person to move the median, but the lower end is capped by biology. ie, you don't keep breathing below a certain point.

      Also, just on a mathematical note, in any population, for any particular feature you pick, the same number will be above and below average. I've heard people say how much it frightens them that 50% of people are below average intelligence... nitpicking the number to bits aside... DUH!

  3. That reminds me- by sirket · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been looking for an encrypted hard drive controller- something that looks to the OS like a normal disk but every single byte written to the disk is encrypted. The moment the power is pulled the key is lost and needs to re-entered when the system reboots. It would look like a disk error but when the "Non-system or disk error" message comes up you enter the key and the system boots normally.

    I would prefer there not be any chance of the OS leaving around un-encrypted information on the swap partition or hacing a back door or any other stupidity. I've seen encrypted controllers but only with 40 bit keys. I'd love to see something with an AES 256 bit key. If nothing is out there I may just have to put together something using an FPGA.

    -sirket

    1. Re:That reminds me- by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      All my machines now use encrypted swap files. If you use Gentoo, it's as easy as "emerge cryptsetup" and un-commenting two lines in a configuration file.

    2. Re:That reminds me- by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      well, that and /etc/fstab and overwriting the original partion with random bits to destroy the old data... but it's still easy

    3. Re:That reminds me- by sirket · · Score: 1

      You can do the same thing with OpenBSD (which I run). I guess I would perfer there to be absolutely no way to write to the disk without it being encrypted. I would also prefer the speed advantadges of hardware encryption.

    4. Re:That reminds me- by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      Using your method, where is they key stored?

    5. Re:That reminds me- by tepples · · Score: 1

      The key is stored in a part of (volatile) kernel memory, which is refreshed from the keyboard after each boot.

    6. Re:That reminds me- by sirket · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It is stored in one of the FPGA embedded RAM blocks and is wiped the moment power is lost.

    7. Re:That reminds me- by bored_engineer · · Score: 1

      pdf warning After I saw your post, I remembered an announcement some months ago that seagate was looking to move encryption to the hard drive. Not quite what you said you were looking for, but not too far away, either.

    8. Re:That reminds me- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This may be what you are looking for, Bruce Schneier pointed to it as a triple-DES solution with the followup product using AES.

      http://www.seagate.com/products/notebook/momentus. html
      (Look at the FDE part)

      http://www.seagate.com/content/docs/pdf/marketing/ PO-Momentus-FDE.pdf
      (Brief 2 page pdf on the hardware based full disc encryption)

      I just ran across it a few days ago and have not yet read into the details of exactly how it works or if there is any enterprise management functionality.

    9. Re:That reminds me- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All my machines now use encrypted swap files.

      What the fuck for? I am the only person who doesn't really care that much about the fact that if my machine should fall into the hands of the NSA/GCHQ they could read it?

      All I care about is stopping casual snooping, or government/police trawling through data on fishing trips. I only want to force them to jump through hoops to guard my basic privacy. There's just nothing on my machine that could justify that level of paranoia.

      Personally, I think all this media hysteria is really about justifying the inclusion of sutff like Trusted Computing TPMs in all machines.

    10. Re:That reminds me- by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1
      What the fuck for?

      Mainly because it is so easy to set up. I haven't set up any other type of encryption because it isn't as easy, but if I ever decide to in the future, I already have part of the work done. Also setup m /tmp directory as a tmpfs filesystem. Now stuff written there really is temporary.
      All I care about is stopping casual snooping, or government/police trawling through data on fishing trips. I only want to force them to jump through hoops to guard my basic privacy. There's just nothing on my machine that could justify that level of paranoia.

      Forget the NSA, what about Joe Random Thief? Are you sure you don't have any personal or financial information that could be used for identity theft?

      The most reasonable threat that disk encryption can protect against is computer and/or hard drive theft. Big government has too many resources to use against you if they really want your data.
    11. Re:That reminds me- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I use casual encryption for sensitive data. J. Random Thief isn't going to any more than look, find nothing and give up. Encrypted swap is overkill.

    12. Re:That reminds me- by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1
      I use casual encryption for sensitive data. J. Random Thief isn't going to any more than look, find nothing and give up. Encrypted swap is overkill.


      if you don't encrypt your swap, then you will leak cleartext onto your hard drive. How big of a problem this is depends on how determined the attacker is. I think that since it is at least as easy if not easier than other forms of encryption, encypted swap is not overkill at all.
    13. Re:That reminds me- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that since it is at least as easy if not easier than other forms of encryption, encypted swap is not overkill at all.

      It kills performance for no reason. Unless you happen to be Osama or laundering money and fear a raid by the pigs, then you absolutely do not need it. The idea that J. Random. Thief is going to go through your swap and reconstruct the data is fucking laughable. You probably own a fall out shelter too... just in case.

      The only other group of people who use encrypted swap are geeks who want bragging rights... which is unspeakably wanky.

    14. Re:That reminds me- by jrockway · · Score: 1

      > if you don't encrypt your swap, then you will leak cleartext onto your hard drive

      Not if you're using GPG, which tells the operating system to lock pages into memory (i.e. never swap them to disk). Ironically, this is also how iTunes keeps you from getting at decrypted DRM music.

      See mlock(2).

      --
      My other car is first.
    15. Re:That reminds me- by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      Maybe my choice of words was wrong. The GPG process can keep its memory from being swapped, but if you actually do anything with the encrypted data (view a document in your favorite text editor for example) then that process may be swapped at some point.

    16. Re:That reminds me- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use FreeBSD and GELI: Disk Encrypting and Swap Encrypting using GELI.

      Buy a crypto card from Soekris, like the vpn1401. FreeBSD's crypt framework will autodetect the card and use it. Note that this isn't a controller, and I don't believe it can be used with a RAID setup.

      There are a lot of issues to deal with. If your swap isn't encrypted, then you'd might as well not bother if you're messing with a huge document. Also, you should find a way to encrypt your home directory as data could get dropped into temporary files. Encrypt the /tmp directory as well. The /tmp and swap keys can be one-time, but you'll want to use different passphrases for different drives. The problem you'll have is with key management. The theoretical crypto chain these days is sound (dunno about GELI specifically, as it's not been analyzed), but there's always a chance for an implementation error. Even so, you are the weakest link in your crypto chain.

      Also remember that you can be compelled to give over your keys by law enforcement (legally). The crypto is so good though that if they want your keys, they'll likely install a key logger instead of bothering with asking you.

  4. data loss by r00t · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Can you stick the drive in any PC running the same OS, supply your password, and get the data? If not, there's one less step before you get stuck trying to read crufty old backup tapes/CDs/etc.

    1. Re:data loss by r00t · · Score: 1

      Oh, recovery via a DIFFERENT operating system is also desirable. Many times the Linux NTFS driver will work even when the Microsoft one gives up. With FAT you could try MacOS even.

      You're screwed if you use an obscure crypto format.

  5. The real cause... by WidescreenFreak · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think you missed the real cause -- the IWNHTM Syndrome.

    It Will NeverHappen To Me

    --
    The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
    1. Re:The real cause... by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      Combine this with a simpl BOTC(Benefits Outweigh The Costs) effect, and you've got yourself a billion unencrypted hard discs just waiting to be looted.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    2. Re:The real cause... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Combine this with a simpl BOTC(Benefits Outweigh The Costs) effect, and you've got yourself a billion unencrypted hard discs just waiting to be looted.

      In this case, wouldn't that be COTB (Costs Outweigh the Benefits)?

    3. Re:The real cause... by Pusene · · Score: 1

      It does not matter anyhow, as things like this is usually prected by a SEP(somebody elses problem)-field.

      --
      Error #13: No coffee. Operator halted. Please place boot device at bottom.
    4. Re:The real cause... by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      "I think you missed the real cause -- the IWNHTM Syndrome.

      It Will NeverHappen To Me"

      Nah. That never happens to me.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
  6. Ignorance by Merlynnus · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Clearly the problem is ignorance. And bad habits. And bad security policies.

    It's not a technological problem -- everyone in Windows & Linux land should be using Truecrypt or something similar and being smart about how they handle data. Rather it's a social problem.

    1. Re:Ignorance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree that its some combination of ignorance, bad habits, and poor security policy. I'm close to one of the people involved with a recent had a lost laptop / lost data security breach. Their policy was that all confidential information on laptops was to be stored on encrypted filesystems. Three years ago when it became time to implement the policy my friend's recommendation was to encrypt the entire drive as a defense against the user's ignorance and bad habits. This policy was shot down by the business unit because it made the laptops "too slow". I also believe that the Microsoft vendor had something to say about the product being buggy. In the end they implemented the poor policy of having EFS available in the build and leaving it up to the user. However, once the story broke on Reuters and the stock price dipped by some unknown percentage the executive edict from the CIO was that all corporate laptops will have EFS installed across the entire hard drive in the next two weeks. There will be no exceptions.

      I eagerly await round two of this battle when someone sells a desktop pc from a corporate setting and the buyer discovers confidential information and makes it public. I can see the edict now. All PC's in this company will use EFS on all disk storage.

  7. lack of proper policies by artifex2004 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The biggest flaw in these schemes is always the glaringly obvious: nobody bothered to turn them on.
    Without written security policies, nobody knows what they should/can/must not do, and even if they do, they follow the rules inconsistently.

    Take a look at Cisco's SAFE, for example. It explicitly says

    This document presumes that you already have a security policy in place. Cisco does not recommend deploying security technologies without an associated policy. For further information about security policies and their use, consult the SANS Security Policy Project at:
    http://www.cisco.com/go/safe


    If you don't know what you have, who gets to access it, and when, what good is a bunch of hardware and software? You might as well hand all your workers CDs of your databases and cross your fingers. Which, possibly, actually happens in some of these cases. Sadly, this sort of stuff is Day 1 material for CCNA and MCSE and other certifications these days, so it pretty much looks like whoever is running the show in these places can't follow or doesn't know standard industry practices. That's gross negligence, IMO, and nothing to do with any sort of technical failings.
  8. Education by ubrkl · · Score: 1

    Education is missing. The software is fine, and cryptographically signing and encrypting can be set up so users don't need to enter their passwords when sending every email, etc.

    When I explain to people that sending an email over the internet is akin to sending a postcard to someone, only less secure, they're horrified and don't know what they can do about it.

    Educate the users, explain that their information is WORTH something, regardless of what it is, and that people WILL collect that information if it's available.

  9. What's missing by Mr_Tulip · · Score: 1
    One problem with encrypting information is that in an environment where multiple users need to access the data, you lose central control.

    For example, Department A installs an encrypted file-system for a CRM database; Department B, who work with a portion of that data, allow for offline backups onto their users unprotected laptops, inevitably, one of the laptops is lost or stolen, and someone finds unencrypted data all over it.

    The only possible solution to this is a really pervasive security policy that extends to all employees, contractors, users, clients etc., and that is what's really missing from this puzzle.

  10. And along those lines by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Informative

    How about corrupted data recovery? Say I have a document, and 15 bytes are damaged and unrecoverable. No problem, I still want it because it's important. If it's unencrypted, that is unproblematic. Whatever those 15 bytes were is damaged and I'll have to fix, the rest of it is there. What about the encryption? Can it handle decrypting partially damaged files, or will it fail?

    1. Re:And along those lines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you mean "15 bytes are damaged"? A byte is a logical construct, not a physical entity. Are you talking about sectors going bad on the disk platter, or are you talking about a program writing corrupt information?

      In the former case, it's just like if a sector fails normally, except the files corresponding to that sector will probably be distributed differently (i.e. you might get read errors for multiple files instead of just one). In the latter case, it'll just be the same as normal, because you'll simply read in the wrong information just as if it had nt been encrypted.

      If you are wondering about what happens if a sector goes bad that stores the key, well I believe common encryption formats store the key multiple times for exactly this reason.

    2. Re:And along those lines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When properly written it can recover well from corrupt data. Just like regular disks, if a single 512-byte sector is damaged you will lose *all* the data in that sector. If a single x-byte encrypted block is lost you will lose *all* the data in that block.

      TrueCrypt is an example of software that does this.

    3. Re:And along those lines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Normally data is encrypted using a symmetric key in Cipher Block Chaining mode (CBC). Let's say we're using a modern 256-bit cipher, i.e. 32 byte blocks.

      If you just encrypted each block of 32 bytes as-is, then if there were two groups of 32 bytes the same in your data then the encrypted result for both groups of 32 bytes would look the same. In order to work around this, CBC mode encrypts the next data block XOR the encrypted data for the previous block.

      The upshot of this is that if you lose one bit in your encrypted data then you'll lose the current 32 byte block and also the next block. However, the block after that will be fine - it does not depend on the lost bit.

    4. Re:And along those lines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I should have added:

      So this means that if you lose 15 consecutive bytes, in our 256-bit symmetric crypto case, the worst that can happen is that the 15 bytes will cross a block boundary and you'll damage two consecutive blocks of encrypted data which will expand to three damaged blocks of decrypted data, 48 bytes.

      *however* in order to hinder cryptanalysis, many encryption programs compress the data before they encrypt it to reduce its entropy. If you lose 48 bytes of compressed data then, depending on your compression algorithm, it might take much longer to recover into decompressing to the correct data stream - or it might never recover at all. However this is less of an issue regarding whole disk compression since if the data was compressed it'd be difficult to seek to a point in the clear version file (since there isn't necessarily an easy correlation between an offset in the clear version and an offset in the compressed version) so whole disks encrypted generally aren't compressed.

      And also whole disk compression often uses stream ciphers - a pseudo-random data generator whose output is just XORed with the real data to encrypt it. In that case there's no feedback in the encryption and losing 15 bytes of the cipherstream will lose you exactly 15 bytes of data.

    5. Re:And along those lines by arodland · · Score: 1

      Depends, of course, on the format -- but most of the sane systems that I've seen encrypt blocks independently (where a block is something from, say, 512 to 4096 bytes), with an IV that's dependent on the block number, and possibly the filename (depending on the level that the encryption is working at). So given a small error, you would likely lose one or two blocks -- not an entire file or directory or filesystem.

    6. Re:And along those lines by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      If you're worried about your files being corrupted, then you should probably be backing up your data. It is not the encryption system's job to worry about whether or not encrypted data is recoverable. However, I'm sure that they could build in some parity that would allow the data to be decrypted even if some bytes were damaged. This redundancy of data also might make the encryption easier to break. The simple answer is, if you want to make sure you're files aren't lost, then keep backups. Because when the entire file gets corrupted, it doesn't matter whether you're using encryption or not.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  11. Answer: The government's backdoor by Zweideutig · · Score: 0, Troll

    We need an act to mandate a functional backdoor so that authorized government agencies can access classified data to fight terrorism more effectively.

    --
    Powered by caffeine and sugar; BSD
  12. lack of fear, until it happens by lon3st4r · · Score: 1
    essentially people don't realise they are at risk; or such a thing would happen.. until it happens. they think that it is too much of a hassle; who would go at great lengths to get their data? if i keep the data to just this system and provide physical security to the system; then i don't need to bother much about anything else. so the data is maintained locally and usually un-encrypted. there are no easy (as in trivial) solutions to encrypt all the data on the hdd in first place. so people take the easy way out.

    what they don't realise, until it hits them is that their systems are hooked to the net, can go for service/repair or otherwise be exposed to external agents.

    how many /.er's encrypt *all* their data on their HDDs? not many i presume. heck, even secrecy scared corporates and intelligence agencies don't do that.

    * lon3st4r *

    1. Re:lack of fear, until it happens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not all, cause the darn WinXp does not support it. and because building such a system is too much of a hassle. I took a look at BartPE builder, but gave it up. I'd love to have everything encrypted though. Now I only have my application data outside the OS encrypted.

    2. Re:lack of fear, until it happens by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 1

      You are correct in suggesting that most users do not want to go through, they don't care, and are not worried about their data getting stolen, more because they don't think of the possibility (IWHTM Syndrome) or they don't have the time to do so. In my experience even a firewall is too much for a lot of users, who wish the internet was AOL and don't want to know about the bad side. This is becoming less true, for sure, but the issue is still there.

      In a situation like this, I feel that we should be blaming the company/corporation the laptop/data is stolen from. Their failure to have proper security policies in place is worthy of a public lynching, and they, IMO, deserve most everything they get.

      Users of sensitive data should have a trusted service technician, which alleviates that particular problem, and should practice defense in depth, not go to *dodgy* websites (political sites such as the whitehouse, or nsa.gov) and have proper firewalling and security in place. If they don't want any of this, they shouldn't be handling the data in question.

      As a /.er, for one, I do actually encrypt everything.

      Harddisk, Boot CD, the USB Keys needed to boot the servers... everything.

      The problem is that people aren't prepared to go through the kind of work I am to boot up a system. The biggest DoS attack one could pull on my would be to drop the power and let the UPS' fail, it takes me fully 30 minutes to boot a single server. The average user isn't going to deal with this sort of time frame. Hell, I don't think even the NSA would want to deal with this sort of time frame.

      Maybe I am just paranoid... nah, they actually are after me...

      07:33:34 up 403 days, 20:18, 3 users, load average: 50.00, 50.23, 50.02
      Damn those kernel updates.

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
  13. How about a distro w/ initial install support by Tiamat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I would love to a see a distro, like ubunto, that would ask me if I wanted to create a small boot parition, and a larger *encrypted* primary parition, which would then install to the encrypted partiton, and finally give me the chance to burn a CD from which to boot (or USB stick if my system supported that, etc.). Then, on boot (either from the HD small boot part, or a read-only CD), I'd enter my password to access the root partition. As it stands, getting this done requires some expertise, too much time for most of us, and lot manipulating of files, partitions, etc.. Make it easy!

    1. Re:How about a distro w/ initial install support by anti-drew · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't just make it easy. Make it the default. The vast majority of users start with everything at default settings. Why would you deliberately use a default which is incorrect?

    2. Re:How about a distro w/ initial install support by Toba82 · · Score: 1

      Nice idea. However, why are you spelling Ubuntu with an o? It doesn't have one. Lately I've been seeing quite a few people spell it wrong in the same way - is there some language issue that explains it?

      --
      I pretend to know more than I really do by mooching off google and wikipedia.
    3. Re:How about a distro w/ initial install support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I'm sorry for the typo. I typically spell it correctly.

      I actually noticed it immediately, but can't edit the original post. It might be a simple mistake, but I suspect that you are right. In english, the word Ubuntu is awkward -- it contains combinations of characters which aren't natural to english speakers, and I wonder if the brain doesn't begin to impose a compromise between the 'real' word and english phonetics. Phonetically, Ubuntoo would make more sense to us, but the brain 'knows' the two 'o's aren't right, so truncated it to Ubunto? Just a theory.

    4. Re:How about a distro w/ initial install support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SuSE Linux has had this for several years; when I tried it a few years back (I think version 7) it worked quite seamlessly. But I've moved on to Ubuntu now :)

    5. Re:How about a distro w/ initial install support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's ridiculous. I don't encrypt my mail or destroy it when I throw it away because it's not that interesting to most people. Likewise, if somebody steals my laptop, at worst they know a little about me that they could also learn from stealing my mail or trash.

      The risk of losing all of my data because of a forgotten password or bad sector on the hard drive is far greater than the risk of the data on my laptop falling into the wrong hands. Can you imagine having to tell your grandmother that all of her data is gone because she forgot her password?

      In the corporate world, where data is backed up and recovery policy is easy to set, I suppose there's no good excuse for not having data encrypted by default (I believe Vista will make this possible). But for your average OS, defaulting to whole hard drive encryption is just excessive paranoia.

      dom

    6. Re:How about a distro w/ initial install support by Tiamat · · Score: 1

      > Can you imagine having to tell your grandmother that all of her data is gone
      > because she forgot her password?

      And how will she feel when thief who grabs her laptop also steals her identity, and leaves her with months of labor to clear her name and her credit?

    7. Re:How about a distro w/ initial install support by javifs · · Score: 4, Informative

      It will be integrated in the latest version of the Debian installer, IIRC, it will be in 'etch beta 3'. Which should be available soon (check out the PartmanCrypto stuff in the wiki and the Debian Installer pages). Since Ubuntu uses a derived version from the installer, they will presumely pick this up once it is finished.

    8. Re:How about a distro w/ initial install support by Nutria · · Score: 1
      Can you imagine having to tell your grandmother that all of her data is gone because she forgot her password?

      Have her
      1. write down her passphrase on a piece of paper
      2. put it in an enveloe
      3. seal the envelope
      4. date and sign her name over the envelope flap, "sealing it" like kings do with signet rings, so if someone opens the envelope, it will be obvious that the seal has been broken.
      5. tape the seam, so that anyone wanting into the envelope must physically tear it
      6. put it in the fire safe
      7. tell a trusted family member where it is
      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    9. Re:How about a distro w/ initial install support by jrockway · · Score: 1

      Evidentally Dapper Drake uses some other installer, since the Debian one isn't eye-candy-ish enough. Personally I prefer 15 years of testing and development to eye candy, but that's why I use Debian instead of Ubuntu :)

      --
      My other car is first.
  14. What's missing? by Kalzus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Common sense and rigour.

    I don't care if your algorithm never exposes a weakness for ten thousand years and your messages are supposedly secret for ten billion. If you keep throwing your scratchpad in the wastebasket and leaving it there, for example, then I'll probably figure out your plaintext.

    --
    "The Devil does not know a lot because He's the Devil, He knows a lot because he's old." -- unknown
  15. Defaults by anti-drew · · Score: 1

    Defaults are missing. Why would you -not- make it a standard system feature and turn it on by default? If you do that, then you need much less in the way of education... basically just educate the user to use a strong password, and you're done.

    IMO the combination of two Mac OS X features, FileVault + Secure VM, comes closest to doing things absolutely right. It's trivial to enable. There can be a global rescue password set up by an IT department. You can use long passwords that are harder to crack. Only the user's data is encrypted, not the OS files (which generally don't need to be). VM swap is automatically encrypted with no password needed. Heck, there's even a password checker dialog that shows the strength of your password every time you create a new one.

    And yet ... the damn thing is still off by default.

    It's almost like someone paid a lot of attention to building the most secure house in the world with shatterproof glass, burglar alarms everywhere, bulletproof walls that can stop an armor-piercing shell, and so on. But when you buy it the front door doesn't come with a lock.

    The first answer to the "why not?" question is, of course, benchmarking. Many evils have been committed in the name of better benchmarks. Nobody wants to be the OS vendor or hardware vendor whose machines run 10% slower by default (or whatever) because they are more secure by default.

    The second answer to the "why not?" question is probably "risk". I bet Apple has seriously considered turning on FV by default. And I bet the execs were afraid that it might be too immature. Given that I've seen some bugs in Secure VM on my x86 Mac, they might be correct in that assessment for now.

  16. I work for a bank and... by alexjohns · · Score: 1
    ... every one of our hard drives is encrypted. That's for over 150,000 employees. Every one, as far as I know. Could be that they missed one somewhere.

    There's still the problem with bad employees copying things off on CDs, floppies, emailing sensitive stuff out, but as far as theft of PCs/laptops, we're covered.

    1. Re:I work for a bank and... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, thanks for the insight. Now how about you share with the class how your employer does that? I think we all understand that encryption is the way to secure data but that's like someone asking "How do you cook a turkey?" and you replying "At my restaurant we cook them with heat."

    2. Re:I work for a bank and... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I worked for a place where the policy was to encrypt sensitive documents before emailing them out. The practice (at least with one HR person who remains clueless) was to helpfully include the password in the same email as the encypted document.

    3. Re:I work for a bank and... by alexjohns · · Score: 1
      Hmm, I think this is the first time I've ever responded to an AC. But OK, I'll bite.

      When I turn my PC on, it goes through the normal POST process, I get the BIOS screen, then I get a login screen. I have to put in a user name and password. Without this, the computer goes no further. Try too many times with a bad password and it locks up. Gotta call the help desk and they have to unlock it, after verifying who you are.

      Is that enough info? There's lots of different products on the market and I'm not going to reveal which product we use, as that may be construed as giving out proprietary information. No, we didn't develop the product in-house, it's commercial, and I'm sure we pay out the butt for it.

    4. Re:I work for a bank and... by jgrahn · · Score: 1
      There's lots of different products on the market and I'm not going to reveal which product we use, as that may be construed as giving out proprietary information. No, we didn't develop the product in-house, it's commercial, and I'm sure we pay out the butt for it.

      Thus, it's something like Pointsec; http://www.pointsec.com/. That's what they use on all laptops where I work. This is not an endorsement, by the way; I never used it.

    5. Re:I work for a bank and... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi, same AC here.

      So what you're saying is that at your restaurant you cook a turkey by first taking it out of the wrapping, then using heat, then you give it to the customer?

      Seriously, your answer remains entirely vague and useless. Not only do you fail to describe the way it encrypts/decrypts, you fail to describe if it's OS limited, if it's software or hardware, if it's integrated into the hardware or if it can be added to generic PC hardware, if it's network aware or if the "unlock" requires a technician to physically visit the workstation, if it's simply a lockout product or if it does full disk encryption, and then you fail to mention what the fucking name of the product is. Because I'm sure your employer knows what your private email address is and regularly reads everything on the Internet associated with it to determine whether or not you've given away the name of a single product among their suite of enterprise security products so they can fire you for giving out proprietary information that would no doubt lead to total network compromise given its pre-bootloader position and the fact that you haven't mentioned the name of your employer. Like they do with the other 149,999 people that work there.

      If that isn't self-importance I don't know what is. Thanks for completely wasting everyone's time by letting us know your work uses security products to remain secure and heat to cook food. Thank you, Captain Obvious.

      So to answer your question, no, that is not enough info. It's not close. And I feel stupider for having read it.

  17. Excess fear, insufficient will by peacefinder · · Score: 1

    For many years, offsite backups have been all about preservation of data integrity, not data privacy. After all, backups are not what's important... restores are what's important. If your offsite backup is encrypted and no one has the key after a disaster, your tape may as well be blank. Now we need to make sure offsite backups preserve privacy as well as integrity, and those are somewhat contradictory goals.

    So encrypting offsite backups is a big step, and unless it's done right it can be seriously counterproductive. That said, it's also not that hard to do right... but it needs to be built into the company's disaster plan.

    I recommend writing the disaster plan document to durable media, like a CD or a keychain drive. That media should include the keys to the backup media. (Possibly in an encrypted container like Password Safe, but of course then you need to make sure you distribute that key in a different way...) Make several copies of the disater plan media, and distribute them widely among trusted employees/officers/partners/board members. Then encrypt the backup tapes, and send them to a safe-deposit box or home with an employee who does not have a disaster plan key.

    With this method, in the event of a theft you've either lost a key or a backup tape, but not both at once. Yet in the event of a disaster, if your backup tape and one key survive, you can get back in business. (Even better, but slightly dodgy legally, is to make the disaster plan media a portable hard drive containing images of all software install disks needed to get the backup restored onto a system.)

    Of course, this is just one way to do it. But in order to encrypt those offsite tapes, something like this will need to be in place. If it's not, there's not much point in running backups. :-)

    --
    With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
    1. Re:Excess fear, insufficient will by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or print out the instructions and keys on to paper and purchase a safe deposit box at a bank. Unless your originals break and the bank is robbed on the same day by some particularly thorough criminals, you're in good shape there. For added security, N banks with some storing grandfather backups.

  18. Cooperation between Linux and Windows? by TerminaMorte · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'd just like to be able to store 'personal' or 'private' information on a 1GB encrypted flash drive.

    One of the major reasons that has stopped me from using encryption, however, is the lack of compadibility for diffrent operating systems.

    If I encrypt the drive using AES-256 on linux, I'm unable to read it on Windows. If I encrypt it with one of the Windows tools, I'm unable to read it on linux.

    So I'm stuck between only being able to read my information at home on my linux machine, or only on public/windows computers.

    1. Re:Cooperation between Linux and Windows? by jzono1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Truecrypt does what you want.

      http://truecrypt.sf.net/

    2. Re:Cooperation between Linux and Windows? by bored_engineer · · Score: 2, Informative

      You only mention windows and Linux. Truecrypt supports those two operating systems. Future support for OSX is planned.

    3. Re:Cooperation between Linux and Windows? by dargaud · · Score: 1

      I concur. But there's also the issue of reliability. People here keep naming Truecrypt and I've tried it out, but in the FAQ they specify that if some bytes are lost, then you may loose the entire encrypted partition. Am I the only one to find this totally unacceptable ?!? Losing one file to a disk crash due to a power failure is one thing, losing the entire partition is NOT. Wake me where there's some built in redundancy, and no, don't tell me to put it on a RAID as it's 2 different problems.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    4. Re:Cooperation between Linux and Windows? by timbo234 · · Score: 1

      people here keep naming Truecrypt and I've tried it out, but in the FAQ they specify that if some bytes are lost, then you may loose the entire encrypted partition

      Correct me if I'm wrong but AFAIK this applies to any 'whole-hard-drive' encryption product. Corrupt even a few bytes and the whole image is corrupt.

      --
      Pre-canned Evolution Links for all those Slashdot holy wars.
    5. Re:Cooperation between Linux and Windows? by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      I'd just like to be able to store 'personal' or 'private' information on a 1GB encrypted flash drive.

      I'm assuming that you're talking about things like passwords, bank accounts, or other textual information.

      My solution is low-tech. I have a GPG/PGP key with a decent length passphrase (and a 2-year expiration date). The private keys and the passphrase get kept in the safe-deposit box downtown as a backup. (Key management is generally the "hard" part and usually where things get screwed up.)

      For every website that I create a user / password for, I create a separate text file. Then I encrypt the content of the text file by copying the plaintext to the clipboard, encrypting it with PGP/GNUPG, then pasting it back into the text file. So when you look at my directory, I have dozens of simple text files, each with a block of encrypted text inside.

      This has a few advantages:

      1) I can easily backup my text files without worrying about the security of the backup media. I could even e-mail them to my gmail account or post them on a newsgroup / website (if I was feeling brave).

      2) If a single text file gets deleted / corrupted, I only lose a single user/password pair. Which I can probably restore from the latest backup.

      3) It's platform agnostic.

      Now, for things like Quicken files... I keep those in a PGPDisk container with a strong passphrase. I'll periodically archive the data then encrypt it with GNUPG/PGP. Plus I periodically burn the container file to CD-R.

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    6. Re:Cooperation between Linux and Windows? by peacefinder · · Score: 1

      Losing one file to a disk crash due to a power failure is one thing, losing the entire partition is NOT. Wake me where there's some built in redundancy, and no, don't tell me to put it on a RAID as it's 2 different problems.

      As I have said elsewhere in this thread, there's a natural conflict between pivacy and integrity of data. Any redundancy built-in to the encrypted contaner would weaken privacy by making cryptanalysis somewhat easier. (Possibly much easier.) If you need to bother with encryption in the first place, this is likely to be unacceptable.

      If you need to preserve integrity of any data, not just encrypted data, the only viable solution is to keep multiple copies of it. Multiple copies within a single encrypted container don't do a lot of good for integrity, and again could seriously weaken the encryption's protection. Therefore whatever redundancy is required to get your desired level of data integrity needs to be applied on a level outside your encrypted container.

      (Note also that multiple encrypted containers with the same data and different keys will also reduce overall security, possibly by a lot.)

      RAID might be a good solution, exactly because you have two different problems. RAID allows you to keep multiple copies on multiple physical disks easily and for a reasonable expense. (Obviously you may still need offsite backups, but that's yet a third problem.) To do what you seem to want to do, you need to use encryption (such as truecrypt) to make the data private, and RAID (or backups or whatever) to preserve data integrity.

      Sorry of you don't like that answer, but there is no all-in-one solution.

      --
      With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
    7. Re:Cooperation between Linux and Windows? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      So I'm stuck between only being able to read my information at home on my linux machine, or only on public/windows computers.

      If you're decrypting your data at public computers, the whole encryption thing is essentially pointless. You don't know what's on that computer that could be snooping your passphrase and copying plaintext from ram.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:Cooperation between Linux and Windows? by dargaud · · Score: 1

      OK, I understand the issue of redundancy causing lowering the security, but at the same time I think it should be possible to have an encryption designed in a way that a wrong byte corrupts a single file within the container and not the entire container... This happens often enough.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    9. Re:Cooperation between Linux and Windows? by peacefinder · · Score: 1

      "... it should be possible to have an encryption designed in a way that a wrong byte corrupts a single file within the container and not the entire container..."

      Of course. Just encrypt each file separately. Obviously that's not very convenient, but if that's what you want an encrypted container is probably not the right solution for you.

      Maybe you need to use a lot of small containers that each hold a few files, so the damage caused by container loss is never excessive. (For some value of excessive.) If you don't like truecrypt, you can probably do this pretty easily with zip and GPG.

      (Keep in mind that there's probably a very sound technical reason why truecrypt containers are fragile that way. I haven't the faintest idea what in particular that reason is, but if they could eliminate that fragility without breaking something important I'd think they would have done so.)

      --
      With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
    10. Re:Cooperation between Linux and Windows? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FEC applied after the encryption won't weaken the encryption.

      If it did, I'd just burn your encrypted file to a CD-ROM, and cackle gleefully as the built-in Reed-Solomon codec broke your encryption scheme for me... For that matter, the redundant RAID schemes are just particular forms of FEC.

    11. Re:Cooperation between Linux and Windows? by peacefinder · · Score: 1

      We could probably argue about the differences between "built-in" and "applied after" for a good long while, but I'm not sure we'd have fun doing it. :-)

      So let me just say that you are of course correct, but there seems to be a misunderstanding about what I was trying to say.

      --
      With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
  19. Key Management by gadzook33 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Any organization handling truly sensitive data doesn't have the luxury of using third party key management. As soon as you have to manage keys, the difficulty of encrypting data goes way up. For these applications, a six letter password isn't going to cut it. Security has little to nothing to do with encrypting data. You can just as easily lock the data in a safe. If you encrypt the data and lock the key in a safe, what's the difference? There is none. People often equate encrypted with secure and this is rarely, rarely the case.

    1. Re:Key Management by DaMish · · Score: 1

      You can just as easily lock the data in a safe. If you encrypt the data and lock the key in a safe, what's the difference? There is none.

      There is a very real difference. You now only have to protect a very small secret - the key(s)) instead of lots and lots of back up media.

      Back up tapes can be sent to an offsite storage place without worrying about data being found if they are stolen. Or they can be kept with a low level of security in the office or in an employees home.

      Similarly for a laptop: laptops get stolen. But if the key/password is kept in your wallet/pocket/memory, then the data is a lot more secure, because the password is far less likely to get stolen.

      A few keys/long passwords are far easier to keep securely than lots of tapes. A few copies could be made. A copy kept in a safe on site (for ease of access normally). And a copy kept in a security deposit box in a bank - for real catastrophes. Or in more than one place.

      There is a trade off between ease of restoration and security of the keys, but it is a lot easier to manage with keys than with tapes.

    2. Re:Key Management by gadzook33 · · Score: 1

      Not really. Try storing on modern physical media a key of whatever length you like. Now try storing all the work you've ever done. I'm guessing they take up almost the exact same amount of space (and I'm not making commentary on how much work you've done!). The real utility comes in data transmission where bandwidth counts. I gaurantee you if you've got terabytes or petabytes of data on hand you're not encrypting all that, you're relying on physical security.

    3. Re:Key Management by jrockway · · Score: 1

      > As soon as you have to manage keys, the difficulty of encrypting data goes way up. For these applications, a six letter password isn't going to cut it.

      So keep your private key on a smart card (I use an OpenPGP card from Kernel Concepts). All the encryption/decryption takes place on the card, which requires a passphrase to use. If you type the passphrase wrong a certain number of times, the card melts itself, destroying the key.

      This gives you all the convenience of a short password, with all the security of a 1024-bit+ RSA key. (You can use a short password since the data is destroyed after three wrong guesses. Brute force attacks just can't happen.)

      --
      My other car is first.
  20. decent key management by epaulson · · Score: 1

    the hard part is keeping the key safe but easy to use. I don't want to have to type in a password every time I boot up, but I obviously don't want the key anywhere on the hard drive.

    What I really want is the encryption keys to live on a USB device that I boot from, something just small enough to bootstrap the system and start decoding from the hard drive. Ideally, it'd be some sort of smart card, like the U3 jump drives. I'd like to put all of the private keys for my system on the jump drive, and have sshd get the session key from the smart U3 device, so my ssh private host key never leaves the USB device. It's applying the principle of least privilege to my PC - I'd just as soon never trust Windows with my private keys.

    When I'm done with the computer in a few years, I just pull out the USB key and I know that the data on the drive is completely useless to anyone else.

    1. Re:decent key management by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      Mmm... I've been looking at TrueCrypt today and it allows you to use something called keyfiles.

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
  21. HIPAA by illuminatedwax · · Score: 1

    I used to work for a therapist practice where all the therapists would do their notes on their laptop. Unfortunately, that mean HIPAA-regulated client data was floating all around on their laptops. Should one of them get stolen, there goes privacy information. The problem is, therapists, and barely computer-literate people in general, do not have the patience nor the technical inclination to encrypt their personal laptops. These are usually their personal computers as well, so we say that it's up to them to delete their files, just to put up a small barrier of protection, and that they shoulder the loss should anything get out.

    Eventually we switched to storing notes on a central server so the only thing stored on their computer is in the browser cache, which we tell them to clear when they can. There's just no cost-effective, user-friendly way yet to do full-disk encryption.

    --
    Did you ever notice that *nix doesn't even cover Linux?
  22. Openness by anti-drew · · Score: 1

    After reading some of the other comments in this thread, I'd add something that OSX does not have but other implementations do:

    Open Format. The format that any persistent encrypted data is stored in needs to be open and documented, so that an authorized user can recover it readily from a different operating system. This becomes particularly important once it becomes obsolete tech. AFAIK the file format for FileVault is entirely undocumented, and that's bad news in the long run. (It's probably not super hard to reverse-engineer, but it should actually be documented for real and specifically unencumbered so that other people can use the same format.)

  23. The key cracking math for those who are interested by sirket · · Score: 1

    it will slow people down. maybe long enough to recover the data or somehow make it less useful (change ids, passwords, etc). even good encryption will eventually fail. the best you can do is to make it difficult.

    "slow people down- _MAYBE_ long enough?" If 2^191 years isn't long enough to change your passwords then the only possible reason is that you are dead.

    Just the act of counting from 1 to 2^256 at a rate of 1 trillion keys per second would take approximately 2^191 years (3 x 10^57).

    That's 3,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years.

    Assuming you find the key about half way through the search (on average) that's still 2^190 years.

    This is WAY longer than the universe has been in existence and probably longer than it will continue to exist in the future. That's just counting the keys. Actually testing them would probably slow your key rate down significantly.

    The math as I see it:

    1 trillion keys per second = 2^40

    2^40 * 86,400 * 365 = 3.4 x 10^19 keys per year

    - or 2^65 keys per year

    2^256 keys / 2^65 keys per year = 2^191 years (256 - 65 = 191)

    - or 3 x 10^57 years

  24. Habit by Starker_Kull · · Score: 1

    I remember fooling around with encrypted partitions at some point, and I remember having a Windows glitch cause all my data to be lost - unlike when a few bad sectors could be manually worked around with various disk tools, if an encrypted file is "damaged", the whole thing is smoke - or at least it was back in 1998.

    So, I think just the paranoia of having files being much more "destructible" has kept me from encrypting my hard drive on my laptop.

    On the other hand, now I use OS X and Linux, and have multiple backups in multiple locations, so there is really no good reason why I don't use FileVault. Maybe I will..... but old habits born of bad experiences die hard.

  25. Full disk encryption unavailable to some of us by cbiffle · · Score: 1

    I know I'm far from the norm here, but I don't use full disk encryption -- despite being a security-industry paranoid -- because it's simply unavailable to me.

    Because I use a Mac. As do at least half of my laptop-wielding coworkers.

    Once a stable solution exists, I will be all over it, but at this rate I'll likely have to write it myself.

    1. Re:Full disk encryption unavailable to some of us by Starker_Kull · · Score: 1
      Forgive me, but you have heard of FileVault? http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/filevault/

      Encryption is certainly available for your Mac, with one click of a checkbox in the Security Pref Pane. Or are you just saying FileVault is too unstable, or do you want more than the /Users directories encrypted?

      In addition, you can create sparse encrypted disk images in OS X using Disk Utility, so while I don't believe you can encrypt your ENTIRE disk, you certainly can encrypt the parts that matter, I think.

    2. Re:Full disk encryption unavailable to some of us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      So true, that full disk encryption isn't available.....

      Funnily enough, I think this was a well thought out post ...

      To evoke evanglical apple fanboys, at any rate ..... here's some factual information for any others who might want to know about OS X encryption -

      Most applications keep the data in the /Users/MyUser folder. FileVault creates an encrytped image that mounts using that directory as it's mountpoint, and all applications keep working data and saved files in it. your login password is your encryption key.

      Note that there's also an applications directory inside of your user directory, if you want to be Ubersure that everything the app does, including itself, is encrypted on disk.

      Also, with swapfile encrypting, the net effect is that all working and used data is encrypted.

      Even standalone DMGs can be created that are encrytped with read/write access, so you can store applications inside encrypted DMGs if you ... for some obsecene reason, want to store them outside of the users's application folder and yet need it encrypted...

      And yes, i realize i made some errors in my english, don't harp on it, it's a damn sight better then most japanese people's english.

    3. Re:Full disk encryption unavailable to some of us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      do you want more than the /Users directories encrypted?

      Ask yourself this: what do you suppose the phrase "full disk encryption" means? How does it relate to this thread? (Hint: read the subject line.)
  26. -truecrypt? by acomj · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We had someone at work talk about this...

    http://www.truecrypt.org/

    Its not a HW controler, but a mount the file system encrypted. It seems like a well thought idea anyway. And available for Linux.

    1. Re:-truecrypt? by sirket · · Score: 1

      The problem is that some part of the disk is unencrypted - otherwise you would not be able to boot it. If someone gets hold of the disk they will see the unencrypted partition and realize that there is an encrypted partition (because of the partition table / fstab / etc.). With a hardware controller the data on the disk is entirely gibberish. If someone gets hold of just the disk there is nothing sensible on it. If they get it with the controller it shows a non-system or disk error. Either way it reveals nothing.

    2. Re:-truecrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if _they_ find a scrambled hdd in a computer with an encrypting controller they can probably send you to guantanamo. what you want is software only denyable encryption, where there is a patsy bootloader+stub os ... and given the right key a servants entrance.

    3. Re:-truecrypt? by Merlynnus · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nonsense. I use Truecrypt, and have encrypted a whole drive. *Nothing* on it is unencrypted. It has no partition table. Any sort of analysis of it would show that it is complete indistinguishible from random noise. Taken out of the workstation that it currently resides in, it would be completely and utterly secure. And, unintelligible. Granted, it's not the boot drive, but so what?

      I also wonder about "...and realize that there is an encrypted partion...". Again, so what? Unless you've chosen an insecure passphrase, or give up the passphrase through some manner of coersion with the strong encryption algorithms, it doesn't matter if someone realizes there might be more to the noise or not. And, if you're really worried about it, Truecrypt allows you to create truely hidden encrypted areas.

      I suggest reading the fine manual that comes with Truecrypt and studying the bit about plausible deniability. And the bit about encrypting whole devices. *Then* come back and bring a informed opinion.

      The fact of the matter is that the technical problems have been mostly addressed. The problem is that the wetware doesn't follow reasonable data security policies.

    4. Re:-truecrypt? by MacroRex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think this level of deniability can be done.

      Your system needs to know it should ask for a password before it can access the disk. How can this be done so that a third party cannot deduce from the hardware that the disk contains encrypted information? We must assume that the third party has access to all hardware including any special disk controllers, custom FPGA solutions or BIOSes. IMO this means that a sufficiently smart third party can always conclude that the system contains encrypted data, possibly even without needing to look at the contents of the disk.

    5. Re:-truecrypt? by peacefinder · · Score: 2, Informative

      Truecrypt has a clever dodge for this. They offer the ability to make a hidden encrypted volume. They do this by making an encrypted volume, and filling its blank space with random data. Yet inside of that random-filled blank space is another truecrypt container, which holds deniable data. If you don't know the key, you never see anything other than random padding in that blank space. See their page on it here.

      Integrity of the inner volume seems quite fragile, due to the possibility of it being overwritten through the outer volume, but aside from that it seems like a good plan.

      --
      With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
    6. Re:-truecrypt? by sirket · · Score: 2

      Exactly how the fuck does your god damned BIOS boot your OS if _EVERYTHING_ is encrypted? Would you like to explain that to us laymen? Oh- gee- wait- you said it's not your boot drive. Great- So when Windows writes a fucking temp file to the unencrypted boot disk TrueCrypt doesn't fucking help me. I don't want a single bit to be written to the disk without it being encrypted. I don't even want it to be _POSSIBLE_ to write something unencrypted to the disk- even if someone does a write to the raw disk.

      I suggest reading the fine manual that comes with Truecrypt and studying the bit about plausible deniability. And the bit about encrypting whole devices. *Then* come back and bring a informed opinion.

      Please don't tell me to bring back an informed decision- I use TrueCrypt on my bloody laptop and know full well how it works. The plausible deniability is great- the problem is everyone knows TrueCrypt provides said feature and in this day and age just knowing it is there can be a problem. Moreover there is always the possibility that something goes wrong and unecnrypted data is written to your hard drive- or a virus gets in an disables it- or the government figures out how to crash it, etc. etc. etc. I want hardware encryption- preferably that I have designed myself.

      -sirket

    7. Re:-truecrypt? by sirket · · Score: 1

      This might have worked if no one knew about TrueCrypt- Unfortunately everyone does now. This means everyone knows it can provide you with a bogus OS. If they come after you and you are running this and they don't find what they want to they will simply claim you are hiding the real data and throw you in jail for contempt. It's no worse than having an encrypted controller. The encrypted controller, however, will be faster, and data can not be written to the disk without it being encrypted. Obviously I need to look into Seagates drive encryption and see how it is implemented.

      -sirket

    8. Re:-truecrypt? by sirket · · Score: 1

      Hence the random "Non-system or disk error." They would think the disk had failed. The beauty of building this myself in hardware is that no one else would have a similar system.

    9. Re:-truecrypt? by Merlynnus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Dude: Coffee. Or something. That much stress isn't good for you. You use Truecrypt on your laptop? OOooooh. I bow down to your obvious omniscience.

      Hardware encryption? Hah! Ask the Xbox devs how well that worked for them. Given access to the hardware, it will be broken. But .... you'll have designed it. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sure that will solve all the hardware encryption problems.

      But mocking aside, check this out: Can I relocate the Windows temp directory somewhere else? Yes. Can I change the location of the Windows swap file? Yes, but that one is problematic, since booting without access to the swap file is difficult.

      But if you're really that paranoid, here's a solution for you:

      Virtualization

      Run your favourite flavor of Linux and install VMPlayer. Still with me? Now create a large encrypted volume. How about a large hidden encrypted volume. On that encrypted volume, create a large VMDK and a Windows VM. Do all your super-secret stuff in the VM. Which resides entirely and completely on an encrypted volume. Tempfiles, swap files, everything are encrypted. If you're are *really* paranoid you could install Truecrypt on the Windows VM.

      See? If you think it through a little bit, you'll recognize that there *are* technological solutions for all levels of paranoia. But all the technological solutions are moot when the (l)users don't adhere to the security policies. Or when no clear security policies exist.

    10. Re:-truecrypt? by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 1
      Obviously I need to look into Seagates drive encryption and see how it is implemented.

      No, you don't.

    11. Re:-truecrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hardware encryption? Hah! Ask the Xbox devs how well that worked for them. Given access to the hardware, it will be broken.

      Except...the private 2048-bit key that is used to sign xbox games *hasn't* been cracked. The only way get around the loader is to use a mod chip or to get executable code to unintentionally execute on the machine *after* the loader has loaded a correctly *signed* game (like the 007 game buffer overrun on loading save games). Neither method results in the ability to get the xbox loader to boot a non-microsoft signed piece of software. Nice try though.

    12. Re:-truecrypt? by Merlynnus · · Score: 1

      OK fair enough, I'll take that one back.

    13. Re:-truecrypt? by jrockway · · Score: 2, Funny

      > throw you in jail for contempt

      That could be good. Let's say they're investigating you for drug trafficing, but really you're planning to overthrow the government and all the plans are on your hard drive. OK, so they assume "the worst" and that you're a big drug dealer, and they throw you in prison for 15 years or something. Meanwhile, your rebel co-conspirators weren't revealed, and they successfully overthrew the government. Obviously you are freed from jail, and everyone is happy. (I should write movies :)

      And anyway, crypto isn't always about protecting yourself -- it helps keep honest people honest, too. Do you really want your bored UNIX admin reading your mails from your girlfriend about how much she likes your hair (or whatever)? No; so encrypt it.

      (As for disk encryption, do you really want your relatives going through your e-mail and IM conversations [or pr0n stash] if you suddenly die or something? No; so encrypt it.)

      --
      My other car is first.
    14. Re:-truecrypt? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Uh, you better turn off swap in your host system and also make sure the "suspend vm" never suspends to plaintext.

      Otherwise parts of your virtual machine could end up on the disk in plaintext- e.g. you run out of memory it gets swapped (does happen sometimes).

      --
    15. Re:-truecrypt? by MacroRex · · Score: 1

      So you'd be relying on the hope that the third party will not inspect your hardware thoroughly. That's called "security through obscurity", and this is generally considered to be a very bad idea. Among many others the Wikipedia entry provides concrete reasons for this.

    16. Re:-truecrypt? by Merlynnus · · Score: 1

      Well, ok. But you could avoid all that by running your host OS from a custom "Live CD".

      1) Configure your "Live CD" with all the bits and pieces needed to run VMPlayer and Truecrypt, including the necessary config entries to support your encrypted removable USB2/Firewire HDD (where you'll be running Windows) or the less-secure-but-faster in-the-box encrypted 2nd hard drive. You might need to configure a RAM disk so that the VM can "write" swap and other goodies to a writable area.
      2) Burn, baby, burn.
      3) Boot from your live CD.
      4) Mount your encrypted volume.
      5) Flash up your VM with Windows.
      6) Do super-secret-stuff.
      7) When you turn off the machine, no unencrypted trace of the super-secret-stuff remains. None. In fact, you can replace the boot drive with that copy of WinME laying around, and thereby complete discourage DHS or whomever from even trying to look any further. Mind you, I suppose anyone with WinME on a system should be jailed anyway.

      Regardless, my point has been that the technology exists. It's not the technology causing the problems, it's stupid (or, maybe only ignorant) people.

  27. There's no benefit to encryption until... by WoTG · · Score: 1

    The "problem" with encryption is not that it takes a few extra clicks, a little extra training and a more effort to work with third parties. Though, those are issues. To me, the real problem is that we're lazy and there is no benefit... at least until something bad happens.

    I've recently been part of a outsourced payroll provider transition. As the IT guy for the customer end, I've been telling our folks to put a password on sensitive Excel* files (full of SIN's and other stuff like that) that get emailed to the payroll company. I initiated that, not the "professional" payroll firm... why don't they insist on it? Who knows? I would guess that it just causes too many questions and minor problems. As long as people don't screw up, there is no "need" for encryption. Simple as that.

    * Yes, I know, default Excel encryption isn't that secure, but it's good enough to guard against mistyped email addresses, and it's hard to beat the simplicity and ubiquity. Good luck sending a TrueCrypt file to someone outside the company!

    1. Re:There's no benefit to encryption until... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      We use a product called HandyBits EasyCrypto to send sensitive information over email. The nice thing about it is that it can create self-extracting .exe... so you just make your .exe, rename it to .000 (so email servers won't choke on it or delete it), call up the party you're emailing and tell them the password and how to rename the file back to .exe. I haven't come across anybody yet who isn't computer literate enough to decrypt one of these.

  28. secureIDE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Re:secureIDE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is no good. It uses 40-bit DES in ECB mode. ECB mode should never be used for encrypting large amounts of data.

  29. The disk encryption technology is available now. by dogbertspup · · Score: 1

    It is not as easy for a large organisation. But it is possible:

    * It has to be seamless, because some people will always take short-cuts

    * It has to be full-disk capable. Preferably flexible partitioning.

    * Big organisations need to be able to centrally and remotely administer (in case you lose your password)

    * It should be flexible, e.g multiple partitions, able to automatically change behaviour if you log into an unsecure hot-spot

    * Finally, it should be hardware based, not software based. Software can always be compromised. If your information is that valuable, then someone will hack it.

    Secure Systems has had a product for two years (www.securesystems.com.au). Also there is a company in the UK - cant remember their name.

  30. Integrity of the inner volume by grahamsz · · Score: 1

    Integrity of the inner volume seems quite fragile, due to the possibility of it being overwritten through the outer volume, but aside from that it seems like a good plan.

    This could be a plus. If you were ever foricbly made release your key to the outer volume then you could keep "secretfiles.tar" sitting around so that a less skilled attacker would untar it and in the process destroy the inner volume.

    1. Re:Integrity of the inner volume by peacefinder · · Score: 1

      My first impression was that this is very clever. But the more I think about it, the more I think it probably won't have much protective benefit. The sorts of opposing forces one would need this level of deniability against can probably be counted on to do a complete clone of the drive and work only on a backup copy.

      Of course, by bias is towards preservation of data. The idea of deliberately destroying valuable data gives me the willies. :-)

      --
      With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
  31. Just a Though... by kponto · · Score: 1
    Recently, Department of Veterans Affairs had lost a laptop which contained confidential information for 26.5 million veterans

    Maybe step 1 could be not having all this information on a laptop.

    --
    This too, will end.
    1. Re:Just a Though... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your though process stinks of irreparable stupidity.

  32. You're looking for Vista by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Windows Vista Bitlocker encryption uses DRM to ensure that data stays encrypted, even on swap. You can recover the data using a backup USB key, but if you forcibly change the password from an admin account, all the bitlocker data will be deleted.

    1. Re:You're looking for Vista by sirket · · Score: 1

      I refuse to trust Windows with security. Some virus/trojan will come along and disable the encryption- or just put unencrypted copies onto other parts of the disk, etc. etc. etc. I want layers of security. Use EFS/Bitlocker for the FS and hardware encryption on the disk.

      -sirket

  33. Microsoft's EFS is NOT an option. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    EFS is VERY buggy and limited, according to Microsoft technical support representatives.

  34. EFS is very poorly documented. Limits & failur by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    Slashdot thread about EFS failures: EFS is very poorly documented. EFS failures.

  35. Article: July 31, 2003 by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    The date on that article about the ABit motherboard: July 31, 2003. What happened? Apparently that idea was not successful.

  36. Re:[FOSS] TrueCrypt by ivi · · Score: 1

    FYI.

    TrueCrypt was recently covered & promoted by Steve Gibson,
    author of SpinRite, in his Security-Now! podcast (no. 41).

    'looks good & fast; is it? :-/

    TIA

  37. Re:The disk encryption technology is available now by DaMish · · Score: 1

    Finally, it should be hardware based, not software based. Software can always be compromised. If your information is that valuable, then someone will hack it.

    This is a real misunderstanding of security and encryption. The point of an encryption algorithm is that you can know the implementation thoroughly, but without the key you cannot decrypt the data.

    So for an encrypted hard drive, software is fine. The key is encrypted with a hashed password (or for some schemes the key is a hashed password) - so the encryption is as strong (or as weak) as the password. Whether the encryption is done by software or hardware is irrelevant.

    There are a few provisos to this:

    • The key must never be written to the disk. But most modern OSes support this. (And on Linux, if you are encrypting any partitions, it is trivial to encrypt the swap partition with a random key on start up).
    • If a laptop was lost and then recovered, you can no longer trust the onboard software to not be modified to save/transmit your password/key.

    Incidentally, the strength of encryption being determined by the strength of the password could be a key reason for lack of uptake. Security people don't trust users to use and remember strong passwords. Though the casual thief of a laptop would be defeated by almost anything.

  38. Malfunction == Deletion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What holds me back is concern that it will malfunction.

    A malfunctioning encyrption engine == a permenant deletion engine.

    If something goes wrong in encyrption, storage, decryption or some other sub-system, everything is lost. You probably can't recover it -- if you could, the encryption engine isn't doing it's job.

  39. Re:The key cracking math for those who are interes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, if you wanted to brute force the actual key.

    A better way would be to brute force the password/passphrase. Try all combinations of letters on the keyboard for increasing lengths, run through the appropriate hashing function for the encryption scheme and try that.

    The real encryption key is hard to brute force, the user remembered passphrase to the key is less so.

    M

  40. It's likely a few things... by WgT2 · · Score: 1

    From what I've seen in a corporate environment, like 14,000-ish employees, is that to change things that involve other people is like changing the momentum of a large object: you have to push and push and push. The change will happen, but it just takes longer.

    Aside from that, I believe there are somethings that can just get in the way:

    1. beaurocrosy
    2. money
    3. portability of product

    The first two are interchangable according to the context of the change and I just put portability in there to keep some sort of technical focus. :)
  41. Experience with PGP Whole Disk Encryption? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My organization has been looking for a solution for this recently, and is leaning towards PGP Whole Disk Encryption http://www.pgp.com/products/desktop/professional/p gpwholedisk.html. One feature we like is the ability to do whole disk or simply folder encryption, when that is all that is necessary.

    Anyone have experience, positive or negative, with this? Our testing has gone well on Win2K and XP so far...

  42. Use IDE password by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

    There's the ability in all modern drives to set a hardware password. It's virtually unbreakable, has little to no speed impact, but don't forget it. There's no known backdoor.

    --
    The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    1. Re:Use IDE password by jrockway · · Score: 1

      > There's no known backdoor.

      Completely untrue. Take the controller board off an identical (but not locked) drive, put it on the "locked" drive, and bang!, you have the data. Alternatives include sending the drive to a data recovery shop to have them read the data off the platters with an electron microscope.

      If your data's not encrypted on the platters, it's easily readable.

      --
      My other car is first.
    2. Re:Use IDE password by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      About being able to read non-encrypted data - that is true, but it's going to take a lot more than the average person to do so. The controller board isn't the problem - the problem is that the password is written to a generally unavailable sector on the drive, all controller boards currently made that I know about respect the pw on that sector, thus, changing out controller boards is irrelevant.

      The only way I know of getting around this is to take the drive apart, manually remove the pw, put the drive back together, and hope you can read it once.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  43. Bad idea by Julian+Morrison · · Score: 1

    1) Encrypt your swap. Not hard especially on Linux. If you must run an OS that can't encrypt its swap, virtualise it. Windows on VMWare on Linux, or whatever.

    2) Don't trust hardware crypto. You didn't write it, can't read it. The NSA probably pwns the keys. Do crypto in software with peer-reviewed open source.

  44. Here's an idea: by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 3, Informative

    Take a simple linux install disk that uses initrd of your choice and comes with cryptoloop.
    Modify the initrd so it asks for a password before setting up the "real" root device on your harddrive.
    Burn the install CD with the modified initrd. Install linux using this disk (so it installs onto the now-encrypted hard drive)
    In order to use the system, you'll have to insert the install CD and use it as a boot CD everytime. But in this fashion no un-encrypted data is on any of your hard drives. To remove evidence that you can even access it, remove the CD when you're done using the computer, and store it in an inconspicous place.

    If you prefer using windows, deal with linux to the point you can install QEMU or VMWare. Install Windows normally in the virtual environment and it is encrypted as well (including the swap file!).

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
  45. Re: must be hardware based encryption by dogbertspup · · Score: 1

    It is possible I have a "real misunderstanding" of secrity and encryption. There are probably many posters with a better understanding than I.

    But it is not just about the technology, it is about practical application of the technology. The majority of the posts on this thread home in on the issue of practicality not technology. In the real world people are not doing the things we expect or want them to. It is hard enough to get them to use the security tools.

    In the response you say "software is fine" with a "few provisos".

    But the "few provisos" can be real, practical cases where the system could be compromised.

    DaMish said: " . . . you can no longer trust the onboard software to not be modified to save/transmit your password/key. "

    And it is not just the case where a laptop is lost and recovered. How often do you find your users have downloaded all kinds of spyware and junk code onto their systems just to get a smiley cursor?

    Do your execs stick their laptop in the bottom drawer overnight when they head out early to play golf?

    Maybe software basd encryption is fine if you have an extremely disciplined user base. But then, it is only a few days since Symantec had to patch a major flaw in their anti-virus.

    My belief is that the encryption implementation must be isolated from the system using a hardware based approach.

    For me, software based encryption is not "fine" enough in the real world. Give me a hardware based solution (at the right price please).

    Can anyone point me at some good hardware solutions?

  46. Scaling & key management by Coward+Anonymous · · Score: 1

    The problem with disk encryption as it is implemented today is twofold:
    1. it doesn't scale - all the various products today can be used for small deployments and still be useable. However, try to scale it to a large enterprise with thousands of machines and you have an administration headache. Microsoft EFS has various flaws in it like this. For instance, if somehow a user's _local_ profile on the machine with the encrypted data is erased, all his data is gone or has to be recovered by the backup operator (assuming the user went through proper procedure to allow this). Because of EFSs reliance on local profiles (if I recall correctly roaming profiles don't cut it), even NAS machines have to maintain a profile for every user accessing encrypted files on that machine. That's ok for 10 to 15 people and utterly ridiculous when you have 20,000+ users. Also, if I remember correctly, EFS adds an additional layer of certificate based ACLs which are devilishly difficult to use and are also contingent on local profiles being present for the users you want to grant access to.
    2. it is a subset of the scaling issue but is a category of its own because it is central to a successful encryption scheme. Disk encryption is easy, managing the keys used for encryption is the real problem and is where your security ultimately lies. Again, the problem here is that for a small organization where you can store the keys on a notepad, if you like, is easy. For a large organisation with thousands of machines and hundreds of locations that need to share data, securely managing thousands and even millions of keys is not trivial. Key management considerations are Informaton Lifetime Management (ILM), Backup & Data Recovery (after a disaster, for instance), Synchronization across multiple sites, various key levels to control data sharing within an organization and without with its partners.

    In summary, encrypting a disk is easy. Making it useful and manageable is very difficult.

    1. Re:Scaling & key management by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you ellaborate? You make an interesting general point, but the details aren't clear.

      > For instance, if somehow a user's _local_ profile on the machine with the encrypted data is erased

      What is the local profile you refer to here? Is it a file?

      > Because of EFSs reliance on local profiles

      What does this mean?

    2. Re:Scaling & key management by Coward+Anonymous · · Score: 1

      The local profile is the user's home directory, the directory that usually sits under C:\Documents and Settings\
      EFS will store your machine local keys (encrypted) in a file there (I don't remember if it has its own files or stores them in the profile registry files).
      If that directory is nuked (My Computer->Properties->Advanced->User Profiles Settings->Delete for instance), the user's keys are gone and his access to his data is gone.
      EFS relies on storing the user's keys in the profile directory and I think I remember roaming profiles not being allowed to store the keys.
      There are quite a few consequences from this scheme, the primary ones are the requirement to have a profile on the machine storing the data (wasted storage, user has to have accessed the machine previously in order to be granted access to someone else's data), sensitivity to the profile getting deleted on an individual machine (what happens if the drive gets nuked? Think of the interactions with backup and data recovery to other machines, how would that work?)

      This is from my experience playing with EFS. It is possible I missed some points that alleviate part of these issues. However, I spent quite a bit of time with EFS and there was nothing obvious on how to deal with these problems (or with the buggy interface).

      I don't know anything about the other encryption schemes mentioned in the other comments. However, I do doubt they address any of these issues. Microsoft tried, with quite a bit of effort, and they didn't succeed very well.

  47. Re:The disk encryption technology is available now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're forgetting one thing: The solution needs to be robust. If one bad bit can wipe out all your data, that's a non-viable solution, even if you're keeping regular backups. That, to me, is the biggest problem with encrypted file systems.

    Probably the best solution would be to minimize the amount of sensitive information kept on laptops in the first place, by transferring just a tiny portion of the result set over encrypted network links in response to centrally-processed queries. There's really no need for someone to be toting around 30 million personal records, just because it makes their job easier.

  48. Not in the real world. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    Ok, I know you've seen movies and read books. But the fact is, crypto today mostly isn't about compsci/math geniuses who, given enough caffeine and a week without sleep, will stumble on some inspiration that'll crack the code wide open.

    Crypto today is about brute force. And it's about how you CANNOT brute force a crypto key with current hardware. And this isn't about Moore's law, we need fundamentally different hardware to be able to crack current crypto techinques.

    This is why the only reliable way to break it is to go around the crypto. If you build a fortress out of solid steel, but your front door is glass, an attacker would have to be a moron to try and get through the steel. Only, no real-world analogy quite conveys the impossibility of getting through the steel -- there is no blowtorch, you just have to look for glass doors. If the doors are steel, you try to break the padlock. If the lock's embedded in the door, you look for the key. If you can't find the key, you're fucked -- there is simply no way in.

    --
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  49. Too paranoid. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    If you can't trust hardware, you can't trust anything.

    Think of it this way -- do you regularly dissemble your keyboard and check for keyloggers embedded in it by the manufacturer? Could you tell the difference if one was part of its controller anyway? What about your motherboard?

    And, even then, who built the chip fab? How do you know there isn't someone there changing your design before it actually gets to the silicon? And changing the visual on whatever microscope you're using?

    For that matter, how do you know the govm't hasn't already built successful quantum computers, capable of breaking whatever crypto you use in split-seconds anyway? All they'd need is a plaintext word to check against, so they know when they've got the right key... hey! Your swapfile does have a swap signature, right?

    Unless you're going to create everything yourself, untrustworthy hardware will always beat trustworthy software. And even then, you never know what tech might be out there to break your crypto.

    At a certain point, you just have to trust something.

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    1. Re:Too paranoid. by jrockway · · Score: 1

      > At a certain point, you just have to trust something.

      So why not make that "something" peer reviewed open source software, rather than some black piece of plastic inside your machine? Sure, the CPU could be specifically looking for your sooper seekret data, but that's not really likely (because it's too hard).

      Crypto is all about mitigating risk, and using software that you can trust is helpful for acheiving that goal.

      --
      My other car is first.
  50. Biggest problem I ran into? Money... by Old+VMS+Junkie · · Score: 1
    When news reports of laptops were being stolen started popping up in the WSJ, the big boss asked my group to look into enterprise encryption solutions for all our laptops and the crap rolled down hill to me. Since I have no one to dump work on, I actually went out and looked at enterprise encryption solutions from about 20 vendors. I pared it down to four and sent them RFPs. There were a lot of good ones but those four fit our requirements best. I'm not naming names since your mileage may vary.

    Anyway, I beat them all bloody over price but when all was said and done, the price tag to protect 7,500 laptops still came to somewhere between $500k and $600k the first year plus 20ish% maintenance thereafter. The big boss nearly *&!@ a brick. Needless to say, we don't have an enterprise encryption solution in place.

  51. Vaporware by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 1

    Feel free to call Seagate presales support and ask about drive availability for Momentus drives with Full Disk Encryption. Despite the kludged setup shown at CeBit, there is no current BIOS that can talk to this drive. The hardware is unavailable and will only become available with laptops from big manufacturers at some point in the future. The guy I just talked to said "2 months, 6 months, who knows?"

    Note also that this thing has already been announced for a solid year. Even if you had one, you wouldn't be able to slap it into an existing machine and make it work.

    Luckily, there are alternatives. Not so luckily, they are ridiculously expensive - on the order of USD$600 for a 60 gig drive. There are also inline encryption modules that may or may not be secure, but good luck getting your hands on one to test.

    I've been trying to source product in this sector for months. When I finally have some success, maybe I'll submit an article. Until then, I'll just leave it at this: "Full disk encryption in hardware is impractical and hard for an individual. Governments and the military are another story."

    If you're really interested, poke around in the "request for proposal" sites in the .mil domain and see what sort of stuff the military is buying. Fascinating stuff.

  52. easu encryption by poptones · · Score: 1

    I have been using an encrypted RAID5 drive in my machine for months. I have had a few disc failures and recovery is easy enough - I just remove the disc from the raid, and the new one back, and it fixes itself. Encrypting everything is easier than encrypting only parts, because there's no granularity at present to ensure you don't accidentally copy or move "safe" data to "tainted" areas - ewncrypting everything ensures there's little chance for accidents.

    Making the disks encrypted is even easier than making the RAID5 using mdadm. I've also had failures in my home partition (which is not on the RAID) and the standard reiserfs recovery tools had no problem fixing the corruption - just mount the encrypted partition and use the tools as normal.

  53. And the safest encyption method is by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

    The THERMITE method (to be used only if loosing the data is better than having it comprimised) the way it works is you stack a thermite blanket on top of the drive and then you rig a switch.....

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  54. Why many just say no by benyahuda · · Score: 1

    JTDL Just too damn lazy.

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    Toda rabbah
  55. Re:Biggest problem I ran into? Money... by TheLink · · Score: 1

    Obviously secrecy isn't as important to your company.

    600k for 7500 laptops isn't that bad assuming USD. 80/laptop, 16/year after that.

    How much do you spend on crappy AV software for those 7500 laptops?

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  56. we use it by RMH101 · · Score: 1

    ...works like a charm - enterprise-grade stuff with remote management, single-sign on and 256 it AES encryption across the whole disk (i.e. boot partition too). slows machines down a little, but it definitely does the job. i'd imagine it's expensive, but it does seem to scale up to enterprise size pretty well.

  57. Plausible Deniability by Niet3sche · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Nonsense. I use Truecrypt, and have encrypted a whole drive. *Nothing* on it is unencrypted. It has no partition table. Any sort of analysis of it would show that it is complete indistinguishible from random noise. Taken out of the workstation that it currently resides in, it would be completely and utterly secure. And, unintelligible. Granted, it's not the boot drive, but so what?

    The really great thing about TrueCrypt, as I see it, is plausible deniability. This means that you can "nest" volumes and only have to account for the outer "envelope" when you are tortured by Homeland Security because you are using cryptography. The short of this: it is impossible to distinguish the "signal" of a nested hidden volume from the "noise" of random bits and such on the device.

  58. three words by dJOEK · · Score: 1

    An Industry Standard

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