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PlayStation 2 Outselling Xbox 360 in U.S.
Aviran Mordo writes to mention an Ars Technica article about the sales struggle between the PS2 and Xbox 360. Since the launch, the PS2 has managed to maintain the lead. April was the first month Microsoft's new console eeked out Sony's old one, possibly as a result of the ramp-up in production. From the article: "I should note that we caution against putting too much weight on these sales estimates, especially in a comparative sense. The PS2 and the Xbox 360 are at opposite ends of their 'console lifecycles,' and the two are priced quite far apart as well (e.g., $129 vs. $299, PS2, Xbox 360 Core respectively). We are impressed, however, by the PS2's continually strong sales, even as many gamers turn their eyes towards the next-generation. These sales will help keep Sony strong and stable, even in the face of a disappointing PlayStation 3 launch, should fate take that turn." These sales may be bolstered as the year moves on by the releases of God of War 2, Final Fantasy XII, and Okami, all of which are for the PS2.
Hardly a far comparison when you look at price point. I would rather spend 129 then 600 any day for a system that is still a decent gaming system.
I can't believe its not butter!
I was in Costco yesterday, and they had a huge rack of Xbox360 systems right next to the front door. Nobody was interested.
Microsoft did a good job of manufacturing an artificial shortage just after the release date, but now the truth is out...
[And to prove I'm not a Sony fanboy: Costco also had a ton of PSPs, but no Nintendo DS or DS Lite systems.]
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I'm curious about how Sony will be able to translate the PS2 popularity into PS3 sales. The 100% backward compatibility promise is a great start, but I think that to sell the PS3 to all the people who don't have a HDTV, you need something better than 'this $500 machine does everything your $100 does'. No more memory cards, wireless controllers, possibly faster load times are all nice, but not enough. And I don't see consumers flocking to HD movies either. I own a HD projector, and HD movies _do_ look better on it than plain DVDs, but it is by no stretch the same landslide change that VHS->DVD was.
A boatload of highly desirable PS3 excluisives to popular PS2 franchises would possibly seal the deal. But most of the upcoming sequels, like Gran Turismo HD, seem more like HD versions of the same game. That won't sell any consoles to the non-HD consumers, which are still the majority, even in the early adopter bracket.
Try out fish, the friendly interactive shell.
I've mailed this in before, but when an article has just been added to the front page as a title only the link to the article and the comments gets a file not found error for me. This seems to have to do with it being the first article on the front page and it must be a title only one.
I'm posting this because I e-mailed it months ago, got no reply, and the error is still present (and was on this article a little bit ago).
I've been an XBox guy for the past three years, but with the appearance of the 360, the new games market for the original XBox dried up pretty quickly. I needed a new console - so why spend all that money on a 360 when there are plenty of good PS2 games that I haven't played that are available at cheap prices? I'll get a 360 eventually - but for now, the PS2 is just fine.
It's not really that surprising that many people are still buying PS2s. It kinda sucks when your large game library becomes completely worthless because Sony's POS console broke just months after leaving its warranty period. Which leaves you with a choice: spend $130 to reclaim your $500+ game library ($50/game, or 10 games - some people probably have more), or spend $500 on a new console.
Not really that hard a choice...
Once the XBox360 price lowers around December (and the PS3 price makes its final climb due to abysmally poor yields), I'm sure XBox360 sales will pick up. Especially when gamers realize the XBox360 is just as powerful as the PS3 (even more so when you realize the XBox360 has 512MB of useful RAM, and half the PS3's RAM can't be read by the Cell, leaving it with 256MB).
Generation transitions take a while, as developers really start producing content for the new systems. This time next year, the story will be how the XBox360 is continuing to outsell the PS3.
This same conversation has been going on at Ars (and to a slightly lesser degree, here at /.) for months now. The threads are usually fairly amusing but for every useful and informative post there's 10 that are just blind fanboyism. Not that those can't be fun as well...
I think the reason for the fanatic dedication to a particular console brand is the need for consumers to justify to themselves the huge investment they made in their purchase. All of the consoles are expensive, and with a halfway decent selection fo games and accessories you're looking at several thousand dollars invested. Nobody wants to feel as though they made a "mistake", and that the other guy's product might have been the better choice.
When it comes down to it, however, other than a few total bombs in the past, all of the current generations of consoles have a lot going for them, not the least of which includes a ton of quality, enjoyable games. I just wish we could remember that when we engage in these occasional console-wars threads.
I mean, it's probably not good at all for MS. But I would think that people choosing to purchase a PS2 in this late stage of the game, probably won't buy a PS3 at/near launch. Before the 360 came out, sales of the X-Box 1 dropped.
Actually, on the other hand, this probably just people replacing broken PS2s. Which such a huge userbase, you'll see substantial turn-around for replacement systems. I know, myself that I need to purchase a new PS2 because my original one died (and I don't want to give up my game library).
Oh. And I have no plans on purchasing a PS3. Too expensive, and I'm having serious doubts that it's going to be the leader of the next generation. (And if it's not the leader, it won't get the 3rd party games. And the 3rd party games are the only reason to have a PlayStation)
That a lot of the ps2s could be people buying their 2nd or 3rd system because they don't last very long. Xbox 360 hasn't been out long enough for that to have to happen yet.
So, PS2 sales are still strong, question, should Sony ready a Playstation 2.5 as a potential backup for the PS3 if it doesn't take off? Basically a PS2 with some type of enhanced graphics, or beefier cpu, or cell plug-in, or maybe even a PS2 with a BluRay drive? Of course there are many downsides to this strategy as well, but the question becomes, what will Sony do if PS3 falters and starts taking PS2 down with it (or stated another way, a bad PS3 launch leads to increased Wii and 360 sales).
As consoles age, the quality of their games get better and better. That's because the programmers learn all the ways to wring out performance. When I look at my oldest games (GTA 3 and the Sims, both state of the art at the time) and compare them to some of the newer games (Shadow of the Colossus, the Warriors, and Dragon Quest VIII), it's clear the quality of the animation has improved.
On the other hand, game play seems to be more static. I haven't seen proof that Xbox 360 games are any better 'games', just better looking.
So, since the game play is a wash, and PS2 games are the best-looking they've ever been, it boils down to extra money for the promise of future performance.
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Judging from the number of times my friends have had to replace their PS2 (usually from a failed DVD drive), I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the PS2 sales are to replace consoles. The PS2 is by far the most prone to breaking in its current generation, and it is probably only now that people may hold off on replacing their broken PS2 in anticipation for picking up a PS3 in November. Heck, at the $130 price point, I imagine that a number of PS2 owners will still bite the bullet and by a new PS2, even with the PS3 on the horizon.
I think the 360 finds itself in a similar situation to the Dreamcast. It has a substantial market lead, and early adopter are really enjoying it, but it doesn't have a killer app yet that is driving people to buy it over the much cheaper previous generation.
Oddly enough, sales of the 360 might be better if the PS3 was out. As it is, it's a situation where the 360 is nice, but is it really worth almost 3 times as much as a PS2? However, if the PS3 was out, the comparison would be, the PS3 is nice, but is it really worth $200 more than the 360? Because it's at the top, the only thing it gets compared to is what's right below it, which, although previous generation, still has a great games selection, and costs much less.
Having said that, I think Microsoft knows how to market the 360 much better than Sega did the Dreamcast, and I think sales will pick up.
Sony's consoles tend to have long lifespans. Its only recently they stopped selling ps1s.
The PS2 lasted many years and due to "interesting" achitecture games shipped now appear better than those released early. The lifespan of the ps2 was 2 years longer than xbox and 1 year longer than gamecube (before replacement with newer model.) Sony will probably contine selling ps2s for another couple years. Xbox 1 is a dead end, because most of the games aren't really backward compatible with the 360, and many that are, are only sort of compatible.
People moan about the new consoles price but actually the new console sales will probably follow hd tv adoption. When I get an HD tv, I will probably update my consolw within the Sony being more tempting since I already have a number of games I life for it.
Also, when seeking a replacement PS2, at many chain stores nowadays you can sacrifice a couple of trade-in items to knock the price of a new one down to the same price as a used one, and enjoy a fresh warranty and that new-console smell.
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The poor sales of the 360 really shouldn't surprise anyone.
Console cycles are won and lost on two fundamental pillars:
1) Manufacturing technology
2) Exclusive IP
Neither of those two all important areas have improved one bit for Microsoft with the 360. Microsoft has no ability to manufacture their own hardware and no ability to process shrink their hardware to reduce costs over time. Due to the billions they burned through on the first Xbox project the Xbox 360 team is being kept on a tight leash. The Microsoft of the late 90s is no more and the willingness to throw billions at projects is long gone for anything outside of search or their core OS/app markets. So the Xbox team was forced to kill off the first Xbox early and rush very flakey 360 hardware out the door leading to the staggering number of defective 360s you are hearing about even seven months after the console hit the store shelves. There are numerous people who are already on their fifth 360!
As to the second area, Microsoft has failed to land any new exclusive IP that they didn't have for the first Xbox. People buy consoles to play exclusive titles. That has always been the case and that will always be the case as long as the console market exists. There is nothing for anyone who didn't buy the first Xbox to go out and spend 400+ bucks on the new Xbox. Which is exactly what you hear from people who talk about why they have no plans on buying a 360. Nothing the system has interests them.
The first Xbox sold around 22 million or so. The userbase was made up of:
1) Dreamcast refugees
2) PC gamers
3) Microsoft fans
Microsoft appears to have mostly lost the PC gamers segment due to the weak 360 hardware. With the first Xbox PC gamers could buy an Xbox instead of a new video card and have a gaming system that was more powerful than any PC for a year or so. That wasn't the case with the 360. The 360 was already graphically behind PCs before it even hit store shelves. PC gamers are going back to their PCs and buying new video cards and forgoing picking up 360s this time around.
Plus you have the hardware defect nightmare turning the rest of Microsoft's core target demographic off and sitting on the sidelines until there is some indication that the problems have been solved. So you are basically looking at some fairly large percentage of the existing 22 million or so Xbox owners abandoning the platform. Which pretty much tracks the poor rate the 360 has been selling. Right now the 360 is selling at somewhere between half to two-thirds the rate of the first Xbox.
These latest sales figures for Microsoft have to be gut check time for the 360 team. The current sales rate of the 360 is putting it in sub-Dreamcast installed base range for the console. Something dramatic has to happen soon. The most obvious is some huge price cut to get the existing Xbox fanbase to overcome their hesitations to buy the 360.
However, with both Sony and Nintendo coming out with free online services, Microsoft is looking at a situation where they are going to be forced to match and drop the 50 dollar a year charge for playing games online. If Microsoft has to do a massive price cut on the system and drop the online play charge they are almost certainly looking at another multi-billion dollar loss for the Xbox project.
With the continuing drop in Microsoft's stock over the past five years and the struggle they have been having to meet street projections each quarter over the past year, one has to wonder how much of a stomach Redmond has to soldier on with a console that is looking more and more like another gigantic source of red ink.
Why do you buy any object that delivers content? The quality of the content.
Why'd you buy a DVD player? The movies on DVD with their superior audio/video quality and that the movies YOU wanted to watch were available in this format. Otherwise we'd have stayed with VHS.
Why do you choose an operating system? The applications. If my customers send me msword docs all day long, i should be running windows as I'm in the best position to have 100% compatibility with their documents. Windows is more expensive to purchase than linux, but if I cannot run Outlook/excel/word/whatever then the cost of windows is a necessary and mandatory cost.
Why is PS2 sales still high? It's not the cost of the game machine, but that there are HUNDREDS of games available for it. With a large variety in the type of games available, any new consumer is more likely to find a game they want to play on the PS2 than on the xbox360 which still has only a few games.
If PS3 is backwards compatible with the PS2, it will be a slam dunk as people can still play their old games, if PS3 is not backwards compatible it will suffer from the same problems as the xbox360
I've personally thought of buying a PS2 - and I have an xBox and a GameCube - because some of the games at E3 will release for the PS2 regardless.
But, I'm still waiting for the Wii, which I'll be buying, so I would probably buy used games at EBX for any PS2, now that the price is so low.
Even if Sony did badly at E3, I don't sense anyone deciding to buy a 360 because of it - most either decided to get a Wii, or might get a PS3 if they drop the DRM, the price, and the rootkits.
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The longevity of Sony's console sales does really point out the mountain MS was trying to climb, doesn't it?
You say the original XBox market for new games disappeared, and it's true -- there's almost nothing new coming. Meanwhile Sony can rely on plenty of third party legs for the PS2; even if the PS3 outright crashes, there's still some cushion there.
Anyone who's scoffed at the idea of "market share" or said it was overrated should think about how much critical mass MS would have needed here. Even a first generation buyer of MS's product is hard-pressed not to go ahead and buy Sony's old version. You "needed a new console" and Sony's old one was plenty good enough -- and it has tons of games you haven't played. You don't even say you were dissatisfied with the XBox, but the 360 doesn't make sense to you.
It's all about the price and the third-party support, seemingly.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
The only people I see showing any interest in the 360 appear to be the most hardcore of existing/former Xbox and Dreamcast owners. I have never heard or seen anyone who is a Sony or Nintendo owner show even the slightest interest in the 360. And there seems to be a huge number of former Xbox owners who are turning to Nintendo or Sony this gen.
The latest worldwide sales figures for the 360 put it at right around two million sold(not shipped!) after seven months. After five years in the console market Microsoft has to be wondering what exactly are they are doing. They can't even claim to be spending their billions to grow marketshare since the 360 is selling worse than the first Xbox.
Spending so much cash for such a relatively tiny group of hardcore fans can't go on forever. Microsoft has much bigger and more pressing problems to deal with these days.
is the main selling point.
I think my wife said it best:
Me: So, the XBOX 360 won't let you play your older Xbox games unless they are specifically supported.
Her: That's gay. Why would I want to have to buy the same games again with 360 tacked on?
Me: I dunno, but the playstation 3 will be 100% backwards compatible.
Her: It better be or I'll just buy another PS2.
Her game library is somewhere around 40-50 games on the PS2 not including her PS1 games.
PS1 games only recently were pushed off the shelves at Gamestops... and the PS1 hasn't been sony's the flagship console for a very long time. I bet the main reason they were around so long is because not only do people with PS1/one/PSX consoles have the ability, but everyone with PS2's also have the ability to run them.
When the PS3 comes out, the available library will start inbetween 4 and 5 digits worth of content... That's massive in comparison to the barely triple digits the 360 squeeked out on release. There's incentive for buying the console just based on features at that point. Even if there's no game you want for the PS3 you can still get rid of your clicking-whirring 5+ year old PS2 and have a HD capable nextgen movie player without sacrificing your investment in content that could potentially go back over 10 years.
She's an adventure/horror survival buff, so the exlusive releases are definitely her draw to the PS3, but the fact that we can rotate a dusty beast out of the entertainment center is also a plus imo.
Such a cluster, using four sychronized monitors to their own regions of a virtual display, would be far superior to a XBox 360 and is affordable with used PS2 equipment or about USD40 excess of one XBox360.
without prejudice
Taking Moore's law into account, Sony could probably issue an updated PS2 that comes close to the new generation consoles in 'user experience' and costs about the same as a current generation PS2.
That might cannibalize the PS3, but then again, if the PS3 is priced to appeal only to hardcore gamers (or people looking for a cheap blu-ray player), it might make sense to have an entry out there that is more competitive with the Xbox 360 and the Wii. A PS2 with a faster processor, more memory and disk might fill the bill nicely. And with that existing catalog...
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At that price, of course it's ahead of the $400 product.
I think a lot of the wait has to do with people waiting for the second revision of the 360 to come out. Just about everyone I talk to says they wont buy a 360 because they overheat. As soon as a newer revision comes out that alleviates that issue, you might see some more sales come in. I'm also guessing that people are trading in their old systems for the newer smaller revised ps2 since older ps2's were notorious for having drive issues, and the newer size gives them a lot more room on their entertainment center.
Also keep in mind that the ps2 suffered the same fate against the ps1 when it first came out. eventually the ps2 started to overtake ps1 sales as soon as the first price drop hit. The 360 will probably have a sales surge on it's first price drop as well.
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First of all your pricing is completely wrong. Second assuming that for some odd reason your numbers ARE right then what is MS going to do when th Wii comes out and is only $199?
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...how many of those PS2 buyers are just replacing one that stopped working? You know, like we PS2 users do every six months?
I've long since stopped buying games that are "beat the game, try to trade for some miserable percentage of original price". I use GameFly for all of those types of games, and if Netflix would add games, then I would drop GameFly. The only games I buy now are ones that I'll play many times in the future against other people.
I noticed this just the other day in my local Target store. Only a single PS2 in stock, while there were 6 or 7 Platinum edition Xbox 360s in the case. Thought it was a bit interesting that it is now easier to get a 360 as opposed to a PS2. My local Costco had a pile of 360s a week or two ago as well.