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The Downfall of the Thief Series
Via Kotaku, an interview at Evil Avatar about the bad end of the Thief series. They discuss the game series with designer Randy Smith, who details the fine points of the early games and the ignoble end for the trilogy of games. From the article: "I view Thief 3's more action-inclined gameplay as being more than necessary for a mass-market acceptance. The problems with Thief 3 were the same as the problems that plagued Deus Ex: Invisible War - it was the tech. The team scaled back the freeform design, incorporated loading zones, not to mention the unstable frame rate and other misc. issues derived from the technology. The gameplay was relatively solid by comparison."
It also rewarded you for just sneaking around, stealing and not getting caught. At the time, it was the only game in the FPS category that you could complete without killing anyone. Even now, I haven't seen a game where you could do that.
The one thing that disappointed me the most was that no one else got into the thief genre. Once the company went belly up, I haven't seen a game that created the same tense, yet immersive environment that Thief 1 and 2 (haven't played 3).
Listen p*ssy. I'm sure your the same homo that posted earlier about alf's boner and you just want to remain anonymous fo
This is what you get when you compromise your vision and integrity for the dollar.
It is funny he mentions Deus Ex, as I loved the original game and was left extremely disapointed with it's incarnation. Not only did they lose their extremely strong original fanbase that helped to build them, but they lost the mainstream appeal they were so desperately hoping to cash in on.
Ugh. Everytime I hear about Invisible War I can't help but cringe.
:(
I really don't know what they were smoking when they decided to make that game and call it a sequel to perhaps one of the best FPS/RPG games ever made (IMO).
I almost cried when I played it, I was that disappointed.
At least Thief 3 kinda kept to the theme of the Thief series. Though I still think Thief 2 was the best - The city level when you're heading across rooftops etc was awesome...
Damn, I gotta dig that game out and play it now.
He said what the problem was in the first sentence in the summary here.
"I view Thief 3's more action-inclined gameplay as being more than necessary for a mass-market acceptance."
Exactly. Fans can put up with things like the loading behavior mentioned. Compromises to game play, however, aren't usually accepted. This seems to hold true for the Deus Ex sequel, as well.
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"We had to support the lowest common denominator (Xbox), therefore the PC version sucked"
Same goes for Deus Ex : IW
It truly astonishes me that many game developers continue to release games that perform so poorly - and that many game players simply roll over and accept it. Back in the early days of 3d gaming, framerate was king - if the average user's system couldn't run every single area of the game without a hitch, effects and poly counts were scaled back until it would run smoothly. I remember playing Doom on my somewhat outdated 386 machine with a high degree of satisfaction.
Nowadays I have a high end PC and graphics card and practically no new game runs smoothly at the default settings. Where oh where did game playability go?
Thief 1 + 2 were great games. Just spectacular.
:P Total destruction of any immersion there.
So when 3 came out and I snagged it, I was a bit disappointed. For starters, the memory limitations of doing a dual pc/console development, meant that the levels felt... cramped. This was in sharp, sharp contrast to the previous two games that were famous for larger, more sprawling/free form level design. Was a big *ouch* to say the least.
Secondly, the first two games had quite a few places where you could swim under water for a variety of reasons. It was fairly important as a gameplay bit. In the 3rd one, I walked into ankle deep water, and the game promptly informed me that I had died/passed out, and put me straight into jail
And lastly, the climbing gloves... First two games had you using what were called 'rope arrows'.(Arrow, rope tied to it, you get the idea) Also was a fairly useful/important gameplay feature, for a variety of designed for and not designed for puzzles/situations. Was an awesome feature. In the 3rd? They scrapped it entirely, citing issues getting it to work with the new physics engine. So we got... climbing gloves! Which were only useful in one instance, and pretty much a waste of time for the rest of the game.(The one instance was enforced, you *had* to use them to continue in the game)
The only thing that saved Thief3 from itself, was the Cradle level. If it wasn't for that, I'd say it was a waste of money. But, I still have a copy, just for that level really.
Just my 2cents.
The Thief series is one of the best in gaming -- although Thief 3 does have its drawbacks, it lived up to the franchise reputation far better than I expected, and the inclusion of the between-mission city is IMO an interesting innovation.
This interview, however, seems rather sparse and hurried...I kept waiting for more and better information to no avail. Certainly enough has been written about the fate of Looking Glass and Thief that this writing is unlikely to add much to the mix.
The only thing that I found lacking was that the city was very one dimensional and lacking in variety. Sure you could do some side exploring, but it was nothing compared the free form experience of the elder scrolls games. You were lucky if there was more than one road to take to get somewhere. The ability to explore and do minor missions in a 'full sized' version of the city would have made the game much better. It seemed like that was what they were going for, but had to abandon that for design reasons.
I view Thief 3's more action-inclined gameplay as being more than necessary for a mass-market acceptance. The problems with Thief 3 were the same as the problems that plagued Deus Ex: Invisible War - it was the tech. The team scaled back the freeform design, incorporated loading zones, not to mention the unstable frame rate and other misc. issues derived from the technology. The gameplay was relative solid by comparison.
I believe the term they're looking for is "consolification." That's when the publisher of a game series that is traditionally for the PC (and for good reason) decides to focus on consoles due to their much larger audience, forcing the developer to dumb down the game both for the LCD of said market and to fit within the limits of the console itself (especially the controls). People complained about this a lot when Thief 3, Deus Ex: Invisible War, and other bastardizations of PC franchises were being released a couple of years ago. Now-a-days that sort of thing has slackened off a lot, but we'll probably start hearing about it again when Halo 3 comes out.
Rob
...I actually liked DX2.
At least, I liked the story. The gameplay was inferior to Deus Ex, and the whole thing was shorter and a little more straightforward, but in some ways it had an equivalent atmosphere. I'd still love to see the whole thing (DX1 + DX2) done as a movie, or novelized. It's fantastic escapist entertainment.
In any case, the loading zones in both Thief3 and DX2 never bothered me. The framerate issues were a bit more of a problem, but I was willing to reduce graphic levels to play through the stories as they were compelling enough. The truth is, I think that both games suffered from the fact that they lack multiplayer modes, not so much because of the other factors. Half Life is in the same general story-driven genre and succeeds largely because of its extensive multiplayer community. Take it out, and I think that HL/HL2 would be in the same boat as these other games.
Personally, it doesn't bother me much 'cuz I'm not a multiplayer gamer, but I've heard these from my Quake/Unreal/Doom/HL-playing gamer friends. I think the lack of multiplayer worked the first time around because of the sheer innovativeness, but a lot of people ultimately want the social aspect. If they just want mindless thrill or action, they watch a movie - it's easier.
*deposits $0.02*
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I'm just going to point out that the quote in the summary appears to be the words of the interviewer, not of Randy Smith, which seems to be implied.
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This is an interesting discussion.
I liked thief and thief 2, didn't play thief 3.
And actually LIKED Invisible War (reminded me of a good System Shock 2 which generally sucked).
I also particularly liked the Thief mod for UT (the first UT the one that was the tournament mode only... came out about the same time as Quake3 tournament...).
The fact that I liked the Thief mod for UT a bit better than thief tells me the technology side is pretty important to me (it was much better technically than the thief engine tended to be).
And I am a stickler for good game play I just don't see how Invisible War was not good gameplay.
Intersting...
As a fan of the series since the first game, I enjoyed Thief 3 despite the problems with it. The story was fun (the Cradle was easily the highlight of the game), Garrett was still Garrett, and being able to roam the city was fun. I honestly didn't mind the loading zones so much. And without giving away any spoilers, I found the ending to be a perfect "full circle" moment for the series.
But ask any fan of the series and you know that T3 is not 'the end' of the Thief games. Look up the phenomenal T2X fan game based on Thief 2. It has new characters, new movies, great new missions, and feels like a natural addition to the series. There is also an extensive network of fan mission builders and modders out there still creating new content for these games.
We're still sneaking around out here. :)
The most devoted Thief fans and fan mission creators are hoping to get the original Dark engine that T1 and T2 uses open sourced so that we could improve it and run it on other operating systems. Most fan mission creators still create missions for T2 rather than T3 since it's so much better and we hope to improve it further, so please sign this: http://www.petitiononline.com/TDPT2/petition.html
I must request of you that you immediately tear up your Geek/Gamer identification card(s), turn in your gaming mouse or mice, shut off all entertainment devices within your household, and wait near the front door. Our specialists will be arriving shortly to take you away for evaluation and re-education.
Sincerely, Gamers everywhere
Maybe the bow in Thief fired sucker-tipped arrows like the ones you can buy in toy stores. Maybe it fired marshmallow arrows. Certainly not real ones. Arrows are large, heavy and strike with enough force to penetrate plate armour. Except the ones in Thief, which did nothing but annoy people. Hint - if it doesn't incapacitate or kill, it's not a weapon.
I played the first game's demo when i was using PC's and I liked it a lot. I had trouble staying in the shadows because there was so many cool ways to murder people that I couldn't resist attacking immediately. Awesome game. One complaint I had, funny, was it was too dark (bad gamma). When Thief 2 came out I left the platform but I heard it was good. Too bad.
What I'm trying to say is that the "downfall" of these series was not the gameplay so much as the fact that everything that has massively succeeded lately has been multiplayer. Think WoW, Second Life, etc. The first "innovator" game in each DX and Thief series was quite successful, but the sequels didn't maintain interest as well as the original.
I am fairly sure that the sequel games in both of these series, however, did well with fans of the original games. I suspect that their downfall came because they just failed to attract new players who haven't already played the originals. Do a google search for '"thief 3" multiplayer' or '"invisible war" multiplayer' and you'll find out that while Ion Storm DID release a half-ass patch for the original Deus Ex, neither of these sequel games supported multiplayer and people DID seem to be interested in it.
What Half-Life did differently was to add a pretty compelling non-halfass multiplayer option on top of their single-player story games. So fans played the game, then played multiplayer and got their friends to play multiplayer, and the series continued to live long after the initial single-player replay value was worn out. Valve did that part really well. And I think that's where the Thief and DX series fell flat; they're like the adventure games of old - after you play them through once, the fun factor drops sharply for everybody but the most hardcore fans, because you already know the story and there isn't much left to do besides what? Play weird self-imposed challenges a la Nethack?
(Note: I am actually a fan of all three series and am quite happy to go back and replay DX, DX2, any of the Thief games, and both HL games in their single-player formats every now and then. It's exactly like watching a favorite movie, only more time-consuming and more in-depth.)
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I found the climbing gloves to be quite useful, actually. I used them a number of times in the city to avoid patrolls, and get to hidden tunnels or rooftop areas. I also used them in several missions to get up to ledges, etc. I did miss the rope arrows, though. Rope arrows are more challenging, and ultimately more fun. (and I expect that one reason they dropped it was consolification, despite what they say about the physics)
..... the shadows ;-) It might seem like a cheesy thing to get excited over, being simply a graphic innovation, but there was something truly immersive about sneaking past a window and seeing your own shadow dance accross the far wall. If you had a light behind you, you could see the shadow of your blackjack rising up over the guards head before he went out cold. You could stand in an alcove and watch the shadow of the guard dance up the hallway to know where he was and how close, and which direction he was moving. In the city, you could even tell from the shadow whether it was a guard, an archer-guard, helmeted guard, creature, or a civilian. Thief3 just had some really masterful lighting/shadow algorithms, and I think it added a lot to the gameplay.
One improvement from Thief 2 was *I think* relative volume levels. In Thief 1&2, you could be in the middle of an incredibly noisy environment and a guard would still hear your footsteps, even though you the player couldn't even hear them. If I remember right, Thief3 actually let noise provide cover for you.
The cradle was awesome. awesome awesome awesome. There was no level in Thief2 that could compare.
One thing I didn't like about Thief2 was the annoying automated messages that the robots would speak. It was ok at first, but got really anoying by the end. I liked Thief3's audio a lot better. The stone golems had something similar, but much less annoying.
Thief3 had the wall-flatten, where you could suddenly need to hide, and rather than running for an alcove you would just dash over to the darkest part of the hall and flatten against the wall, almost eliminating your collision area. The guard then walks on past, and you resume stance behind him and knock him out.
But really... the thing I liked most about Thief3's gameplay?
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As other posters mentioned, I did miss the big sprawling maps. On a PC, that 5-part city map could have been all one map. Each mission could have been all one map as well. The best thing would be to use some warcraftish techniques to make the whole entire thing all one map ;-)
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The Thief series was an awesome concept, but to all those raving on about how great they were I'll put that the series went downhill in Level 2 of the original Thief.
... a fucking zombie. Way to go and completely spoil the mood. Not only did it immediately destroy my ability to suspend disbelief, but here I am in the role of someone who sneaks around avoiding conflict and I have to beat down weapon-resistant monsters that come in waves. Fuck that.
Here I am playing a game that goes on and on about realism. The first level is fantastic. I start the second level thinking the same until out of the darkness comes
Methinks you missed the point of the series. The sole use of normal arrows is to make a "clank" noise that might distract a guard. (And if you're *really* playing, you won't even do that. Guards should never even be alerted- you're a master thief, not some cutpurse.) Kind of like the sole purpose of the sword is to cut tapestries to see what's behind them. Other than that the two serve no purpose.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
I couldn't agree more. DX:IW and Theif 3 both seem completely compromised. Point the finger at "game god", Warren Spector, as he was running the show for both. Sure, he had different leads for each game, but the buck stopped with him. I refuse to beleive that as he played the betas for either of those games he said, "man, these games are fantastic!"
I wouldn't be so angry if I hadn't spent $100 bucks on both of those POS.
When I finally got my hands on some hardware that could run DX:IW, you know what I did? I loaded up the original Deus Ex. Those games don't even belong in the same sentence together.
Let's hope this Deus Ex restoration project gets done. Then I can turn my friends on to one of the greatest games ever.
This is a serious question, am I the only one. I constantly had the feeling Thief 3 was the best of the series, despite the loading zones. I always hated the mission and nothing except videos in between approach of T1 and T2. Thief 3 felt like a real world game, just like the underworlds.
Sure you had the loading zones, but the overall feeling of the game was much better.
I'll be the first to admit, they cranked the atmosphere right up in Thief 3, with absolutely gorgous shadows and details in the levels. I know everyone here has been praising the Cradle level as possibly the scariest (and best) levels of any game out there.
The rest I didn't mind (even the loading levels). However, I wished there was a level that could compare to the scale of "Song of the Caverns" in Thief Gold, or "Life of the Party" in Thief 2. None of the levels in T3 felt as grand as the two aformentioned levels.
I even loved those levels in Thief 2 where you have to follow Lt Hagenson(Is that the name?) and the pagan, and the level after that with the ape creatures and the tree monsters (I almost shit myself the first time I walked too close to one of those tree monsters, when it suddenly took a swipe at me knocking half of my health off then chasing me right around that area. You can barely outrun the bastards!)
Wouldn't it be great if the next Thief game (if there is one) could be designed something like GTA with different areas you have to complete to move onto the next one, but with one big area you could walk around and explore if you felt like instead of doing missions. Even have a day and night cycle, where you have to get to a safe house or area during daytime.
That and a multiplayer ability.
BTW, what the heck was up with not being able to swim in T3?
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The Huns' or Mongolians' composite (short) bow, for example, was good enough to conquer half of Europe. And they faced Roman legions in chain armour (lorica hamata) and even banded armour (lorica segmentata.) Now it may be useless against the gothic plate of the late medieval era, but to kill a stupid city guard in a chain vest, they're perfectly good.
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The game was a bit less good than it's precursors. I wouldn't call it exactly a "downfall". The only thing i had with thief 3 was the city "hub". Because of seemless transitions between levels, you always had too many equipment/arrows/etc. on you for the mission, you never felt like you were gonna lack anything. You could basically take your time and kill everyone you saw. And as for the record, Thief's legacy lives on in other games. Oblivion features sneaking missions in which the sneaking mechanics looks a lot like those of Thief. Hide in the dark places, don't run to make too much noise, guards coming to check where the noise came from, then the inevitable "it must have been a rat"... Oblivion's few sneaking missions are VERY similar to those of Thief's.
The gameplay is too linear, everybody is a camper, and each level lasts three to five seconds.
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From the interview:
Honestly, the stealth gameplay chemistry of Thief 1 didn't truly come together till very close to ship, possibly as close as a few weeks. Although we all had our suspicions, it wasn't until then that it was clear which types of content would be a good match for the game systems
This is an incredible statement. Thief 1 to me has always been an example of a game design done right from the very beginning. For the designer to say that the "stealth gameplay chemistry" only came together right at the end of the process boggles my mind. If so, it was very fortuitous: Thief 1 remains for me an all-time classic, possibly one of the best first-person perspective games ever made.
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.