Slashdot Mirror
AOL Tries New Tactic to Keep Customers
Jhon writes "AOL customer Vincent Ferrari tried to cancel his account, but a phone rep wouldn't let him do it. What he got when he tried to cancel his account was a lot of frustration. Now that's customer support!"
Just for his trouble they probably signed him up again for 6 free months!
Link to mp3 recording. Putfile's proper site for this requires a proprietary download just to run the file, so have this link instead. They'll probably move it though to make us look at their annoying page.
Here's link to Vincent's blog. He's been dugg and farked and all the other usuals by now (which is why the file is now on putfile), so be gentle with the poor bastard's bandwidth. He's just come out of a very rough breakup, after all!
Also, this isn't a new tactic at all. That spin isn't in the linked article or anywhere else, so I guess 'Jhon' is to blame.
Opinions on this practice aren't as one-way as you might expect. It's kind of surprising to see a site called 'consumerist.com' reply to
withPricks.Couldn't he just stop paying the bill? Wouldn't that cancel the account? Or is there something that I'm not aware of?
AOL is an internet for people who dont know any better. With all the fancy advertising on TV with the people compeating in Professional sports and what not, that kind of stuff looks flashy to this idiot society.
Personally what I would like to do is take these commercials for instance the guy running the track....Yeah let AOL make you high speed with everyone else, but lets make this more realistic....Lets put this oversize hurdles in the guys way and call it SPAM or Spyware.
Or the kid doing the swim race, I would love to see him go at it then this huge shark come up out of the water and take him out in one gulp...I'd lable him Virus.
This is just a more realistic AOL.
The greatest revenge in life is massive success.
Hang up.
Call your credit card company.
Tell the credit card company to no longer accept charges from AOL because they refuse to cancel your account.
If you really want to play it safe then write a letter to your credit card company after the call that reiterates the request and the reason for it.
I got the same treatment a while back when I was cancelling an account from AOL -- not quite as bad, but close. The rep kept offering me free months in exchange for not cancelling. I didn't know how I got signed up for AOL in the first place, but that's a different story.
In any case, it seems more like an established business practice than a rogue representative. The AOL rep was pushy, but he was probably doing nothing different than he was trained to do, and had done before. Perhaps he should file a wrongful termination lawsuit, and see if AOL wants their training practices scrutinized on the record...
John Doe - "Hello I'm Mr. Green i want to cancel my account.
Customer Service Rep - "Done. Good bye Mr. Green"
Rock and Roll
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It is their job to prevent you from leaving at all costs. I dont remember the stats (I worked in the tech department) but I believe they wanted no more than 3 or 4 cancellations an hour. If you have more than 6 its time for you to clean out your desk and work elsewhere.
Or as they like to put it "Your keybadge wont work" as a polite way of saying your fired.
Its a very bad place to work and the bean counters call teh shots and make senior decisions on how its run everytime. I am surely not surprised it lost 30 million customers. They are very short sighted indeed and dont give a crap about anyone including their own customers. Just how they look to senior management at AOL corporate.
Also the call center I worked did some borderline illegal practices and they always change the name of the subsidaries they do some call center work because they keep getting sued for firing people for unjust causes. But I consider this outright fraud.
So if you know anyone who uses AOL and wants to quit, here is how to do it? Call the credit company and tell them not to pay AOL anymore. Problem solved and you get to save someone's job.
http://saveie6.com/
. . .but someday you'll realize that guy was just trying to help Vincent.
./ed
He obviously needed someone to step in and grab him by the collar and say, "Vincent! This is a bad move, man! AOL is here for you! Don't you get it??"
But Vincent wouldn't listen and now look at him.
Not only is he AOL-less, but now he's been
Try to uninstall the "free trial" of McAfee on any new Dell PC.
You can't - it conveniently gives you an error message. I've confirmed this on a variety of Dell PCs.
This isn't an accident. Sure, you can reboot in safe mode and uninstall it but they know that the average user isn't a geek (trust me, it takes an average user weeks/months to follow simple step-by-step instructions to uninstall Dell's McAfee and install Avast). So they prey on them.
It is about time that someone sued the pants off of them. Where are the ambulance chasers of the tech world?
More
Don't get me started on trying to get away from the AOL behemoth. You can get to a fraud hotline at your credit card company of choice in mere minutes. "Hiya, this is Patio11: does it count as fraud if I'm getting billed without my consent? Because I've had this recurring charge from AOL for *state length of time greater than zero* after I called them to cancel..." BAM watch your problem go away.
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
You haven't listened to the entire audio. "John" was over the line as a CSR. Vincent expressed he wasn't interested in any offers or anything and just wanted a quick resolution to the call and to cancel the account to which "John" said: "If you want me to cancel this account, you going to let me speak ... but you are going to listen to me if you want this turned off". He was more than a bit sarcastic.
Vincent was a little unreasonable- 4 minutes isn't so terrible either. Vincent needed to be more patient, but has a right to cancel the account.
Vincent wasn't unreasonable at all. He answered John's first four or five questions. After that, he basically said "you're not going to convince me, so just cancel the account." At that point, the conversation is over.
Maybe John just isn't a good listener, or maybe it's corporate policy. I think it's a little of both; it seems obvious that AOL CS reps either get rewarded for customer retentions or punished for customer losses. So first you have a corporate policy that encourages annoying behavior on the part of CS reps, and then you have this particular CS rep who just does. not. listen.
I mean by about the third minute of the call, he's just going over and over the same ground. His entire routine seemed to be that Vincent uses the account more than he thinks he does. This is his sales tactic - "sir, would you believe it if I told you that you used this account for THREE DAYS STRAIGHT last week? Do you STILL want to cancel??"
But after the first time Vincent said "I don't care, cancel the account", that's it. You can't just keep saying "no, but seriously, do you have ANY IDEA how much you use this account?? No, really!" Because then not only are you being a stubborn ass, you're on the borderline of doing something illegal, which is charging somebody for an unwanted and unsolicited service.
It sounds to me like you're dangerously close to saying companies have a right to harrass you into backing out of a cancellation. They certainly have a right to OFFER customers something not to cancel, but they don't have a right to either guilt you into not cancelling or to otherwise harangue you about it. It's the customer's money, and it's the customer's credit card. In the absence of a contractual agreement, they have the right and expectation to be able to call and cancel at any time without getting any guff about it.
As far as I'm concerned, only one "cancel the account" should have been sufficient to get the job done.
I can actually get paid to piss people off !?
Fuck, I'm in the wrong business.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
I got the same treatment from AOL. I was going to contact the Attorney Generals Office and found out Eliot Spitzer's Office had already settled with AOL - obviously to no good effect. The AE gets to make a buck and AOL figures the fine as a cost of business. The release from 2005:
0 5.html
AOL TO REFORM CUSTOMER SERVICE PROCEDURES
Settlement Requires Company to Remove Obstacles
Consumers Face When Seeking to Switch or Cancel Service
Attorney General Eliot Spitzer today announced an agreement that requires the nation's leading internet service provider to reform its customer service procedures.
Under the agreement, America Online (AOL) will alter the incentives it offers to customer representatives who seek to persuade subscribers not to cancel their service.
"This agreement helps ensure that AOL will strive to keep its customers through quality service, not stealth retention programs," Spitzer said.
In response to approximately 300 consumer complaints, Spitzer's office began an inquiry of AOL's customer service policies. The investigation revealed that the company had an elaborate system for rewarding employees who purported to retain or "save" subscribers who had called to cancel their internet service. In many instances, such retention was done against subscribers' wishes, or without their consent.
Under the system, consumer service personnel received bonuses worth tens of thousands of dollars if they could successfully dissuade or "save" half of the people who called to cancel service. For several years, AOL had instituted minimum retention or "save" percentages, which consumer representatives were expected to meet. These bonuses, and the minimum "save" rates accompanying them, had the effect of employees not honoring cancellations, or otherwise making cancellation unduly difficult for consumers.
Many consumers complained that AOL personnel ignored their demands to cancel service and stop billing.
The agreement requires AOL to:
Eliminate any requirements that its customer service representatives maintain a minimum number of "saves" in order to earn a bonus;
Record all service cancellation requests and verify action on the request through a third-party monitor;
Provide refunds to all New York consumers who claim harm based on improper cancellation procedures, up to four months worth of service;
Pay $1.25 million to the state in penalties and costs.
(New York State Attorney Generals Office) http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/aug/aug24a_
"It sounds to me like you're dangerously close to saying companies have a right to harrass you into backing out of a cancellation. They certainly have a right to OFFER customers something not to cancel, but they don't have a right to either guilt you into not cancelling or to otherwise harangue you about it. It's the customer's money, and it's the customer's credit card. In the absence of a contractual agreement, they have the right and expectation to be able to call and cancel at any time without getting any guff about it."
Actually AOL does assume it has the right to harrass you and its highly encouraged. I worked there.
You can not have more than 3 or 4 cancellations an hour and you must take a ton of calls with low handle time. In order to keep your job you must try to stop them at all costs! I am not saying this is ethical but I would have been rude too and nervous and thinking about my stats.
Its the job of the staff to protect AOL from the customers. Its backwards over there and I do wish someone would sue to change this. Many phone companies saw this and loved the idea and do the same thing with people trying to cancel. This is probably going to be the new thing.
But yes if you need to be rude back then so be it as long as the numbers are met for hte bean counters then things are good. The jerks there always had the best stats and the lowest handle time on the phones and the least amount of cancellations an hour.
http://saveie6.com/
My variation on that is to boot it, toss a copy \winnt\system and system32 to another box on the network and then reformat.
Not having to go to a shitty website to download 30 drivers (clicking "I agree" to a 26 page license agreement for each file) saves me tons of time (especially for laptops, dear god, the freaking scroll wheel needs a driver?). Just keep on pointing windows to one of those 2 folders and you'll have a fully working system in far less time than running the installs, etc.
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
I typed "cancel" into the AOL Help Search box, and it had a link to the following:
We value your membership with the AOL® community. However, we are really sorry that you're considering canceling your AOL® account. It's our mission to build a service that lives up to the high standards of the online community. We hope you've enjoyed being an AOL member and that we can help you again in the future. For security reasons, AOL accounts cannot be cancelled either online or through e-mail. You can get your AOL account cancelled either through phone, US mail or fax.
To Cancel Your AOL® Membership Over the Phone
To cancel your AOL account over the phone, all you need to do is call up AOL® Member Services at 1-888-265-8008. You can speak to our representatives to get your account cancelled. This service is available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
To Cancel Your AOL Membership Though U.S. Mail
You can request the cancellation of your AOL account through the U.S. mail. Just send your request to:
AOL
PO BOX 17100
Jacksonville, FL 32245-7100
To Cancel Your AOL Membership Though Fax
If you prefer sending in your request through fax, please send it to us at 1-703-433-7283.
Notes:
* If you choose to write or fax us, please include a brief note stating the nature of your request, the primary billing contact's full name, phone number, address and handwritten signature.
* In addition to that, for account security purpose please provide any one of the following:
o The master screen name of the AOL account
o The last four digits of the current method of payment (for your security, please include only the last four digits)
o The answer to the account security question of the master screen name.
* Cancellation will take effect within 72 hours of receipt of your request and AOL will send you a written confirmation. Please note that AOL LLC reserves the right to charge and collect fees, surcharges or costs incurred before your cancellation takes effect. Thank you for using AOL
I got the same treatment a while back when I was cancelling an account from AOL -- not quite as bad, but close. The rep kept offering me free months in exchange for not cancelling.
Ditto, but when I tried to cancel (years ago), I talked them into giving me 6 months free, threw a reminder into my pda to call them in 5 months and 3 weeks and did the same thing over and over for just under 2 years. It was actually kind of crazy and was a running joke in the family for a while.
Free dialup access sometimes is nice, even in this day and age where pretty much every hotel has wifi.
The way I see it, this way everyone wins - the CSRs got their brownie points for retention and "Hey, umm... you do realize that I've had your service for free for 2 years" is a great way to kick the CSR into reality and letting you cancel without too much trouble.
Mooching free stuff off retention CSRs can be fun and profitable too. Hold times are usually the shortest out of all the branches too.
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
You're obviously under the misapprehension that the manufacturer considers you the customer. They don't. You're the commodity. Their customers are the other big corporations that pay them to install their crap on the machine.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
I don't know about the english speaking part of the world, but in my country the phone is not part of the legally enforceable mean of contracting.
If they refuse to cancel by phone, write a letter and that's it. If in doubt, send it with registered mail. And yes, fellow Geeks, it doesn't even matter if you use a template in MS Word or KOMA-script with LaTeX!
I find the advice to---again---call the fraud dept. of the institution that handles payment for you potentially dangerous. If I had a contrct with AOL I'd sure know how to EOL that---the correct way.
But again, your legal system might differ... Mod me down then!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIVZ9b0RgmY&search= VINCENT%20FERRARI
AOL doesn't make any money off of subscriptions. I'm just guessing, pulling shit out of my ass. I suspect however that their income is derived from their advertising and business partnership areas. AOL isn't an ISP, it's a BBS, started that way and nothing has changed. The big secret is that newspapers aren't being killed by the web and RSS, they are being killed by the new online newspapers.
AOL is the new online newspaper. Google, Yahoo! and MSN are all trying to become "portals", because portals are just electronic newspapers. They design the layout, pick the lettering and provide you with a digestible amount of ads and sales lines. It's not new media at all, it's the same damn thing. What do you read first thing in the morning? At lunch? The Internet has just given us newspapers that change on the fly and can actually work two ways. It's the same need, the same solution - information at hand. Entertainment, current events, comedy, debate, etc, it's all stuff we want and we get it somewhere.
Why do I say this? Look at the leading "homepages." A lot of people moved away from traditional portals like Yahoo or even Lycos to Google for a while, but now Google makes their own "home page" portal site because it "sticks" better (google.com/ig). Microsoft has made a huge technology jump from MSN.com to live.com, and could take a lead when Vista ships. The point is that all of these portals are fighting for your eyes so they can push ads or push you into doing business with their partners.
So what AOL is doing, and does, has a purpose. They don't even want to report you to collections. In fact, I'm sure they will overlook delinquencies when you are interested in signing up again. Free months so you don't cancel? Sure! No problem - don't even pay us if you don't want to. All they want is to have you come to them and request service. Cancel it in the first five minutes and you will easily get months free.
How can I say this? I work for a newspaper, in the circulation department. We aren't interested in the money people pay for the actual product. Even if all of our customers are delinquent we are happy - they are customers, we didn't "give away" the paper to them. In fact, at one time you could rack up hundreds of dollars in debt to us and we wouldn't bat an eye when you asked to get your paper restarted. (Now we are loosing money we can't afford that, they think) All that matters is that we can go the advertisers and say "we've got xxx,xxx people get the paper at home."
We always give away free "upgrades" to a customers subscriptions, not because it gets them to buy more papers, because they can be included in our daily circulation numbers. AOL is doing the same thing. Slashdot is even doing the same thing. Imagine if upon a six month Slashdot hiatus you decide to come back, what if then you've got mod points? Don't you think they are trying to get you to visit more to see more ads.
AOL is the newspaper, Slashdot is for us, CNN is for some, Yahoo is for some, MSN is for some, random-lusers-blog.com is another for one or two people. It all depends on the person. It isn't anything new, we've just got more options (and kick-ass search engines that can sift through it all).
Title should read: AOL Tries A Tactic From Every Other Media Provider's Business.
Get your Unix fortune now!
You got that right. I'm a recovering Dell service tech (2 weeks out of that hell hole) and the last new Dell I set up had 53 processes running right out of the box. Then you have the cheap 256 meg machines that paged out before the OS was even loaded. Add MS Office which had its preload crap in the startup folder and you got 7 minute plus boot times. Not to mention all the system/program pop-ups and time limited shareware upgrade notices they had to deal with. Many of these people were newbies or average users and just wanted to do email and browse the web. The crap was driving them nuts before I even got out of the house.
You and I would format the drive and reinstall but that's well beyond the capabilities of many of these users. Even the "Dell Decrapifier" is beyond most of them. And they're not about to spend $50 or $100 or whatever to have someone fix their new $500 computer.
Oh, and since this thread is about crappy service... In Information Week (6/12/06, pg 11) Paul English of Kayak.com says (in part) "Dell is in a customer service death spiral." That's being kind. I couldn't agree more. Virtually every customer (90%+) complained of long hold times, 4 to 6 hour or more troubleshooting sessions from brain dead techs or the guy named Sam or Fred that couldn't speak understandable english. Then when Dell did customer service surveys they'd complain LOUDLY and Dell would blame us because their shit didn't stink.
I had to deal with them even as an on-site tech. "The hard drive sounds like a coffee can full of rocks. I unplug it and the sound quits." "Well, lets run some diagnostics." "Huh? It's about to self destruct. Send me a GD drive!" "I can't until we run diagnostics." "But it isn't even seen in the BIOS." "You can run diagnostics off the Resource CD." And on and on and on. Or the poor woman who bought her 8400 to do work from home with a random reboot problem every few minutes. She spent 30+ hours on the phone over 6 months before they even sent a tech out. Then her warranty ran out between visits and they refused to help her any more. And the company I worked for that stressed customer service above all else refused to run it up the chain of command. Spineless assholes. I just couldn't do it any more.
Sorry, it wasn't you that set me off. It just looked like a good place to vent. Can you tell I'm glad I'm out?
Vincent's own terminology put him in the trap. Telling the rep "cancel my account" implies that the rep can argue. The right approach is this: "I have now informed you that I'm cancelling. That's all I have to do according to my contract. I am no longer bound by the contract no matter what you say and no matter whether you put the cancellation in your systems or not. I'm not in a mood for argument, so I'm going to hang up. Have a nice day and remember, if you charge me next month you'll be committing credit card fraud. [click]"