Slashdot Mirror


Is Microprocessor/Controller Design Dead?

blanchae asks: "I work for a Canadian post-secondary institute and I have been scouring the web job sites, newspapers and newsgroups for career adds for microprocessor/controller based electronic designers at the technology level (2 years training). We are re-evaluating our curriculum and are looking at the job market as one way of warranting specialization training to existing programs. There's lots of career adds for embedded controller designers with University degrees but not a thing for technology level microprocessor/controller design. It is very puzzling. So the question is: Is microprocessor/controller design dead? Has it moved offshore? Is it off the radar and mainly in small upstart companies (5 to 25 employees) that hire word of mouth and not through the big corporate media methods?"

108 comments

  1. Not *all* dead by bcat24 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Maybe it's only mostly dead. Remember, there's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, there's only one thing you can do....

    1. Re:Not *all* dead by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 1

      "there's only one thing you can do...." Check their pockets for loose change?

      --
      Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
      altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
    2. Re:Not *all* dead by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      No..you check for loose electrons.

    3. Re:Not *all* dead by Arctic+Fox · · Score: 1

      I'm waiting for Netcraft to tell me before I'm sure.

    4. Re:Not *all* dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Loose elections are a Florida/Ohio thing.

    5. Re:Not *all* dead by JustOK · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      In Soviet Russia, clusters Beowulf you (and linux runs it). ---note clever use of an embedded joke, so this post CAN'T be off-topic.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    6. Re:Not *all* dead by Daengbo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Maybe he should've checked the ads for adds instead of the adds for adds, because they might've added the ads but failed to add the adds. Infact, from what I can tell, they mightn't be dead at all, but merely addled ....

    7. Re:Not *all* dead by David+Gould · · Score: 1
      --
      David Gould
      main(i){putchar(340056100>>(i-1)*5&31|!!(i<6)<< 6)&&main(++i);}
    8. Re:Not *all* dead by stigmato · · Score: 1
      With all dead, well, there's only one thing you can do....
      Shoot their heads off before they eat your brain?
  2. And you expect to find the answer here? by hackwrench · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You work for a Canadian post-secondary institute and it is very puzzling and you turn to Slashdot? God help our post-secondary institutes.

    1. Re:And you expect to find the answer here? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Funny

      This is indeed most puzzling. If this was an American school, they would hire a big money consultant to conduct a year long study on the practical options. The consultant himself, however, would turn to Slashdot after being on the beach for nearly a year and write up the report the day before it's due.

    2. Re:And you expect to find the answer here? by blanchae · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's only one method of acquiring data. Slashdot is a forum for geeks, many of which play with microprocessors. Who better to ask? I didn't say what I would do with the feedback...

  3. After reading the summary... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... I'm still not clear on whether you're talking about designing applications for embedded controllers, or the controllers themselves. Between Motorola, Atmel, and a few others, there's certainly not likely to be a market for any additional cores.

  4. Umm.... by Andrew+Sterian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Don't you think 2 years is perhaps not enough time to have someone be competent at something as complex as microcontroller design? A 2-year degree is generally associated with technicians/technologists that are not hired for design work.

    1. Re:Umm.... by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 4, Informative
      Correct ... I am hiring someone for micro controller this week (UK, not Canada), and after looking through CVs, I consider people with six years experience to be relative novices, with only limited contact with many of the important issues.

      To do micro controller work, you need to know EVERYTHING from how to create thread-safe stuff with no memory management to how to implement mathematical functions found in second/third year of a maths degree with UNSIGNED arithmetic. You need to know how hardware behaves when its faulty, and you need to know whether the compiler is faulty or the hardware, or your code is defective - and get it RIGHT.

      And in most cases you probably need good client facing skills, the ability to work bizarre hours, and a willingness to put up with shitty conditions of employment.

      The reward for all this is the chance to laugh at those better dressed and housed than you, in their posh cars with their trophy wives, knowing that its thanks to you their engine management system has left them stranded on the highway in a $60,000 car!

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    2. Re:Umm.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      So... let me get this straight. If I took this job, I would:
      • be expected to do everything right, the first time, on arbitrary hardware, under an arbitrary deadline, so the only outcomes are "met expectations" or "failed,"
      • need to know how to lie to our customers, preferably with a straight face,
      • be working arbitrary hours, likely with little notice, so little chance of actually having a planned vacation,
      • work in hell... enough said.
      All for the benefit of mocking someone who:
      • has better clothing than me,
      • has a better car than me,
      • is paid more than I am (note I did not use the word "earn"),
      • has a wife (even a trophy wife),
      • will blame me for his car breaking down.
      Okay... so how is this making the world a better place, especially my little corner of it?
    3. Re:Umm.... by john.r.strohm · · Score: 1

      Requiring the ability to work bizarre hours strongly indicates incompetence in program planning and program management. If you did the planning and management properly, you wouldn't HAVE to be working bizarre hours. Read DeMarco's "The Deadline", and think about it.

      Requiring a willingness to endure shitty conditions of employment is even worse. Companies that do this invariably find themselves functioning as unpaid training departments for their competitors.

      And you leave out a very important point: You want all these specialist-level skill sets. You don't say whether you are willing to PAY for them. Some years ago, I had to explain to an acquaintance that the reason he couldn't hire programmers was that he wasn't willing to pay them enough money to make it worth their bother.

    4. Re:Umm.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      So when you can't find anyone with all the experience you want (since they all have long-term jobs), what will you do?

      This is an area that needs more people getting trained, and you cannot get that training in college/universities. It requires companies to hire people at entry positions and to train them up. How else are people supposed to get the experience that you and other companies are asking for? Make it up? Where are the entry positions for people who want to do the kind of design work you are looking for but need real world training and experience with the material?

    5. Re:Umm.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "how to implement mathematical functions found in second/third year of a maths degree with UNSIGNED arithmetic."

      You're talking about a high school degree here, right?

    6. Re:Umm.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The reward for all this is the chance to laugh at those better dressed and housed than you, in their posh cars with their trophy wives, knowing that its thanks to you their engine management system has left them stranded on the highway in a $60,000 car!

      You must work for Jaguar.

    7. Re:Umm.... by janzen · · Score: 1
      You must work for Jaguar.

      Probably for their former supplier, Lucas Electrics, whose founder, Joseph Lucas, became fondly known to British car fans (and their detractors) as the "Prince of Darkness".

  5. FOURTH TSOP!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry.

    1. Re:FOURTH TSOP!!! by bcat24 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      FIFTH TSOP!!! is more like it. ;)

  6. Microprocessor or controller design jobs by kyc · · Score: 2, Informative

    No. Actually the microprocessor or controller design business has at least a 20 years to survive according to Gordon Moore's projection (Google Moore's Law) and ITRS(http://public.itrs.net) projections. This is true for technology level designers too. You are probably mistaken by the fact that large companies do not seek only 4-year graduates. You must try Intel; TI, IBM or etc. You will see that the business still needs lots of people. I heard that there are 2 year technology graduates in TI from a friend who conducted an internship there. Don~t get discouraged it is just customary for them to put it that way. There are lots of opportunities for technology graduates in the industry. The thing is you should try big companies.

    --
    There's plenty of room at the bottom! Richard P. Feynmann
    1. Re:Microprocessor or controller design jobs by woolio · · Score: 1

      microprocessor or controller design business has at least a 20 years to survive according to Gordon Moore's projection

      Well, don't forget which company he founded.... I feel his "law" is nothing more than a mission statement that managers and investors took as their basis for evaluating the industry. Because they (managers/investors) believe in it, it will either happen or Intel will be punished. (e.g. has group X maintaned the law, okay they get a check on their annual progress report). Otherwise it has little to do with reality.

      Gordon Moore will be last to admit when general purpose CPUs are dead.

    2. Re:Microprocessor or controller design jobs by kyc · · Score: 1

      That is completely a wrong statement of yours; based on a simple logic. Gordon Moore may have founded the company INTEL; but this, at least in academic world, has nothing to do with scaling factors by time. ACtually what he predicted was what the technology, or companies so to speak, could do without SPENDING MUCH EFFORT.... This is the key point here. If you can scale the transistors without needing too much concern on low power techniques or interconnect wires, and this was the case for the last 30 years, then this is nice. All the semiconductor firms used this fact as a basis eventhough some of them tried to surpass it without much success ! Consequently; what Moore suggested was a simple IEEE paper and it turned out to be amazingly accurate. This has in fact nothing to do with Intel or its success. Intel is founded by two traitors of the 8 traitors ( Google this a little bit and you are going to find out who founded what; and who these traitors were ) under brilliant ideas waiting to be realized. That is why, your argument is false and misleading. Finally; just for the record : Moore has no organic bond with Intel anymore.

      --
      There's plenty of room at the bottom! Richard P. Feynmann
    3. Re:Microprocessor or controller design jobs by woolio · · Score: 1

      Yes, but are you saying that his early management/efforts (technical & nontech) didn't help sustain his prediction?

      (How did he benchmark himself?)

      And even after others took over his duties, I don't see why they would be eager to break the "tradition" nor argue why such a departure should be acepted.

      Perhaps they did sustain his prediction with little effort. But I'm arguing that he could have made a somewhat different prediction and it would have been sustained in the same way.

    4. Re:Microprocessor or controller design jobs by kyc · · Score: 1

      The thing that is constantly misleading you is that you are not fully aware of what Moores Law is about. I respect your comments and arguments but sometimes the factual accuracy is more important than pure logic. I am going to try to explain to you, some basics of Digital Design and semiconductor businesses, and I am pretty sure that your major is not electronics. I am by no means trying to degrade your knowledge or rationale but only trying to clarify some points. Therefore please do not get offended. My major, Electronics Engineering is closely related to the issue. And I do research on Power Efficient Digital ICs and more generally ULSI (Ultra Large Scale Integration) 1.) First of all , when Moore predicted this trend in semiconductors, there was no Intel. Actually he was just a scientist, trying to make a projection of LSI (it was called Large Scale Integration that time) because there had seemed a long way ahead. When they actually scaled 100 micron devices to 75 micron, the pioneers of the time, like always, tried to see what was coming next. Moore along with many others who founded the companies which constitute a large portion of the semiconductor industry now tried to foresee the eventual scaling. Of course, he could not then talk about interconnect problems, Short Channel Effects ( SCEs were later discovered when this trend continued) but he made a projection in 1965. And just after 10 years, he MODIFIED the projection because there was another discovery and they found other diffuculties and Moore made his projection a bit looser. What is known today as Moore's Law is this modified version in 1975. Now the whole point of this paragraph is things were really not very organized. He was just a senior research engineer in Bell Labs by that time. He could not of course have organized the future market of the prospective company he would found. No, noone can do that, sorry. 2.) Second of all, there IS really good reason for other companies ( there is a big race among the semi-conductor companies. This race is so fierce that they can do whatever they can to eliminate the others ,or to reduce their profit margins, please check their revenues and statistics from Google or Wikipedia if you are further interested ) to find novel changes in device scaling. Everyone works independently in this field, and thus they have to be very efficient and careful since if one of the others discovers or invents a novel technique that plans to control a huge market (newly created) it would be very hard to catch later then. SO what they do is constantly to work with universities which are the institutions with avant-garde research techniques and philosophies to keep themselves up to date. For over 40 years, every SC company was producing its own IC, independent of the others. And noone , until there were complications like short channel effects, interconnect problems, area problems, heating problems and etc... , could not find a better way than the one predicted by Gordon Moore in 1965. This is something about history and it is a factual observation. Your theory could have been accurate if Moore had been controlling all the SC marken before he made his projection, and he should have been a very clever and organized guy to manipulate all the other companies or researchers or scholars in the universities NOT to surpass his ultimate observation. Therefore, I think you should have a better picture of what happened in these 4 decades and what Moore's law is in this era. From an academic point of view, he is not only a succesful academician, but a very clever businessman. But just that, no manipulation, no tricks. He just made a VERY accurate observation.

      --
      There's plenty of room at the bottom! Richard P. Feynmann
  7. not dead ... by neomage86 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    just far too hard for anyone with a two year degree (and for most people with bachelors degrees)

    At the bare minimum, to be able design even a relatively simple chip you need the following classes:
    1.5 years physics (mechanics, em/wave, and quantum)
    3 years math (calc 1, calc 2, multivariable calc, diff eq, linear algebra, stats)
    3 years electronics (intro to electronics, digital logic, basic design i.e. intro to hdl, analog signal processing, solid state devices, advanced design) 1 year CS (CSI/II)

    Anyone capable of covering that much material, in addition to general school requirements, in two years destroyed their college admission exams and already has a good scholarship to a 4 year school (where they can get the degree in 2 years if they really want).

    1. Re:not dead ... by Omega+Hacker · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Um, I'm pretty sure the OP is talking about using existing microcontrollers (e.g. PIC, AVR, lesser ARMs, etc.) in projects, not designing new processors...

      I've done commercial projects of such a nature myself, with only a tiny bit of formal training. Such things are trivially within the grasp of a 2-year degree holder with appropriate training.

      --
      GStreamer - The only way to stream!
    2. Re:not dead ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's pretty close to the HMC core curriculum. Every Mudder does (just about) that. I would garner that most do more than that.

    3. Re:not dead ... by 1iar_parad0x · · Score: 1

      What college admission exams? I know Caltech offers a exam for transfers (IIRC). However, most schools don't have admission exams in the US. Are you in Europe? The SATs only need a little high school math and relatively simple verbal skills. Also, most schools ignore SAT scores for transfers. I'm really not trying to be picky. I'm just curious.

      --
      What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
  8. Attention: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    DeVry lied to you about your earning potential.

  9. The problem is the certificate by Jason1729 · · Score: 1

    A college does not teach enough theory to do anything useful in embedded electronics. A 2 year trade program doesn't have the time and the students don't have the aptitude to cover the needed algorithms; if they did, they'd go to university.

    1. Re:The problem is the certificate by SchwarzeReiter · · Score: 1

      Correct. Im doing software design for embedded systems. Ive a Masters from electrical engineering, and I eat my colleges with Batchelors for lunch. The thing is they cant think in systems. For them good code is what does the thing it has to do. For me good code is what A, does it has to do B, in the least possible time, C until the end of the world, and D, does not make bigger problems, as the ones it solves. No wonder most of the batchelor guys get lost in a year or two, because of too many stress. If the poster thought about actually designing microcontrolllers, I dont think those guys are hired from the Vancouver Tribune. They are searched by head hunters, and basicly bought from other companies. I think in that league the get in ticket is a PHD.

    2. Re:The problem is the certificate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good thing parent does electronics, 'cause her English skills suck.

      "batchelor"?, "too many stress"?, "microcontrolllers"?

      I can handle a few mistakes here and there, but the parent is just plain "bad".

      No offense intended, of course.

    3. Re:The problem is the certificate by static0verdrive · · Score: 1

      This is only partially correct. 2 years isn't quite long enough, but you don't have to go to University. I went to college for a 4-year technologist course and found I had better hand-on experience and one-on-one training with the professors when compared to university students I met on co-op terms. University may set you up better to teach, but not as well to jump directly into the job market.

      --
      ========
      77 77 77 2e 6d 65 6c 76 69 6e 73 2e 63 6f 6d
    4. Re:The problem is the certificate by NewWorldDan · · Score: 1

      Oh, I don't know about that. If you throw out all the idotic liberal arts requirements and some of the irrelevent 'core' classes, you're left with a 2 year program. If you have strong math skills and generally understand DC circuits, it's not that difficult. I work with an 8 bit PIC as part of the project I'm working on. I do all of the programming and we have an engineer that we contract with to do the primary design. I don't need to be able to design the circuits from scratch, but I do need to understand the basic circuits so I can test and debug and write up design specs/change orders.

    5. Re:The problem is the certificate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the students don't have the aptitude... if they did, they'd go to university.

      This reeks of elitism.

      Personally, I went to a 2-year school in favor of a 4-year school mostly because of money. My parents are only a notch above the poverty line. They couldn't afford to send me to a 4-year college. I've been out of school for a few years and I'm making almost double my dad's salary.

    6. Re:The problem is the certificate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're so smart then why can't you find the apostrophe key on your keyboard?

    7. Re:The problem is the certificate by Jason1729 · · Score: 1

      I have a computer science undergrad degree from U of Waterloo with a strong hardware background. There is no liberal arts requirement in that degree and all the core classes are relevent.

    8. Re:The problem is the certificate by Jason1729 · · Score: 1

      I went to college for a 4-year technologist course and found I had better hand-on experience and one-on-one training with the professors when compared to university students I met on co-op terms. University may set you up better to teach, but not as well to jump directly into the job market.

      You do know those co-op students are working as part of their education, right? At Waterloo the first co-op term is after 4 or 8 months of school, so you're comparing your 4-year diploma to someone 8-months into a 4 year degree. When those co-op students graduate, they'll have 4-year degrees and 24 months of experience in the job market, this is much better prep for the job market than just having a diploma.

      Programming is easy, it's understanding the algorithms and knowing what to program that is hard. This takes a much more theoretical backing than a college gives. Take a look at this site and see if you can figure out how it find the connections. It's a fairly straightforward algorithm that anyone with basic math skills should be able to do but very few people with computer diplomas can. That's the difference between a degree and diploma.

      I do some contract work in embedded systems software. My last project involved reading information from accelerometers and there was a fair bit of calculus in interpreting the results. It was also on a mid-rang pic (8 bit integer math, no multiply or divide functions), so I really had to understand the theory of the calculus to get it to work in that chip.

    9. Re:The problem is the certificate by Bent+Mind · · Score: 1

      Interesting site and strange logic. Years ago, my first year in college, I took a philosophy class to cover a liberal arts credit. It was an interesting class. I'm glad I took it. I do wish I could remember it better.

      Quite a bit of the class talked about artificial intelligence in computers and learning systems. One of the examples used a simple algorithm that your link reminds me of. I just wish I could remember it. I'll have to dig out the class book now and look it up. Anyway, the example was showing how humans stored information according to how it related to other things already stored, then how difficult it could be to recreate that in computers. In the example, a computer was told that birds could fly and were animals. It was told that pigs were animals. It was then asked if pigs could fly. The answer was yes.

      In that spirit, I asked the site about the connection between pigs and birds. It's logic was interesting:

      Okay, I see how pig connects to bird:
      Pig connects to Animal, Pigs are a type of animal
      Animal connects to Giraffe, A giraffe is an animal
      Giraffe connects to Africa, Giraffes come from Africa
      Africa connects to Continent, Africa is a continent
      Continent connects to Europe, Europe is a continent
      Europe connects to Turkey, Turkey is a country which straddles Europe and Asia

      Turkey connects to Bird A turkey is a bird.

      Correct, just interesting on how it came to the conclusion.

      --
      Request a Linux Shockwave player here: http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/
    10. Re:The problem is the certificate by Jason1729 · · Score: 1

      Correct, just interesting on how it came to the conclusion.

      The site is a lot of fun to play with because of things like this. It's always right and usually in a totally non-obvious and silly way. It happens because of incomplete data, like not knowing that Birds or Turkeys are animals. It will never be complete but its database is growing.

  10. On-the-job learning by ian_mackereth · · Score: 2, Insightful
    In Australia, there seem to be many cases of technicians being hired for non-design jobs who then progress to doing some code maintenance, then end up in design if they show an aptitude for it.

    (There's others who've hired programmers and try very hard to keep them away from their embedded designs, since your typical CompSci grad thinks a MB of compiled code is compact!)

    So, I'd suggest equipping your students with the sort of skills that will get them a foot in the door of companies doing embedded design, and suggest that they get a couple of cheap design kits for popular MCUs to play with in their own time.

    1. Re:On-the-job learning by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      There's others who've hired programmers and try very hard to keep them away from their embedded designs, since your typical CompSci grad thinks a MB of compiled code is compact!

      It is - 700k of that is symbols (we have sucky STL libs). Actually, I don't sweat 1MB of code because we have 1GB ram, so nothing's hurting.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    2. Re:On-the-job learning by AJWM · · Score: 1

      I don't sweat 1MB of code because we have 1GB ram, so nothing's hurting.

      Except your cache -- and your instruction pipeline on the frequent cache misses.

      --
      -- Alastair
    3. Re:On-the-job learning by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

      Heh, we've got a meg of cache too. Sometimes more. But if there's any coherency at all, caching will work just fine on the relevant part of that 1M of code.

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

    4. Re:On-the-job learning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      (There's others who've hired programmers and try very hard to keep them away from their embedded designs, since your typical CompSci grad thinks a MB of compiled code is compact!)

      They're not CompSci grads, they're "the new CompSci grads", otherwise known as "Java Engineers". That is they majored in Bloat, so that's all they know.

    5. Re:On-the-job learning by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Except your cache -- and your instruction pipeline on the frequent cache misses.

      My code doesn't need to be fast - it mostly waits for the database, so I don't care about that either. The major performance factors in my application space are data models, decent algorithms, and database speed, in that order. It'd be different if I were messing with physics processors of games :).

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    6. Re:On-the-job learning by ian_mackereth · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Yep, this is what I was talking about!

      I think we mean different things by "embedded"...
      You mean an ETX card with an x86 running at 100s of MHz, I mean an 8 or 16 bit microcontroller with 16k of flash and 4k of RAM in it.

      Here in Oz, at least, MCU code is far more likely to be written by an electronics engineer than a programmer. Mind you, the same engineer probably designed the circuit, built the prototype, wrote the documentation, wrote the Windows interface software, designed the case, swept the floor, cleaned the toilet...

    7. Re:On-the-job learning by Elros · · Score: 1

      That sounds a heck of a lot like a Software Engineer (and a crappy one at that). A good CompSci or a good Software Engineer is going to have a better idea of what size code is needed on this thing.

      A MB of compiled code is compact...if you're working on an Athalon64. It's far from compact when you're working on an 8051. That said, it might be that those doing the highering need to be looking at Computer Engineers, not CompScis or Software Engineers. At my school, the CompScis only take two hardware classes (neither very advanced). Even so, most of them understand that "micro" does not mean a MB plus. I'd still recommend that companies working with hardware look at Computer Engineers over CS majors.

      --

    8. Re:On-the-job learning by Gorshkov · · Score: 1

      YOu haven't tried to mess with an 8051 lately, have you?

    9. Re:On-the-job learning by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      My point is that I'm in a different problem domain than you - of course I don't care about a 1M executable - my stuff runs on a 1Ghz box and uses perl as a middleware. If I was messing around on a Z80, things would be different - no stl for you!

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    10. Re:On-the-job learning by aminorex · · Score: 1

      Symbols never get in the cache unless your're running a debugger.
      Code bloat is not a problem for caches, because they cache lines
      of sequential bytes. Logic bloat is a problem for caches, lots of
      long branches.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    11. Re:On-the-job learning by jrockway · · Score: 1

      Perl might be suitable for embedded systems, if you use microperl.

      --
      My other car is first.
    12. Re:On-the-job learning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As one of the other posts said, "embedded" means 8 or 16-bit microcontrollers, with 256bytes to maybe 8k of ram, and 16k-128k of flash for code space. Will this microperl work on that? And will it make the rest of the system respond sluggishly?

  11. They're still used.... by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

    in everything from phones, gaming consoles, bluetooth mice/keyboards, etc...

    Just everyone and their brother runs a Java.net.OOP/PHP webshop and the signal/noise ratio of REAL jobs is too low.

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  12. i have a two year certificate by nolifetillpleather · · Score: 1

    in like microprocessors or something, and in industrial electronics, and in general electronics. its been so long since i took those courses. i wish i didn't waste all that time on the high level courses. they don't transfer to any universities. the certificate is completely useless. i've never seen a job posting for someone with a two-year degree in any kind of electronics. it sucks. i have to work inside sales while i take 30959 years to finish my bachelor's.

  13. Borad Desing or Chip Design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Based on your description are you thinking of jobs designing boards using micro-controllers right?

    In this case, I would say try small companies that deals things such as military, medical or even elevator manufacturing.

    However, if you are talking about designing chips, as a 2 year degree, you are better off teaching mask design. This is because it doesn't require a lot of training other then tedious work. Currently Intel, AMD, or even Via just to name a few will hire people with mask design expirence. However, be aware that these jobs will require you to work like there is no tomorrow and the turn over rate is high. I know some mask design engineers would rather work as a tech with hourly pay. The pay is quite good, but the hours are insaine and the work is borning.

  14. Companies tend to 'over qualify' job descriptions. by ABeowulfCluster · · Score: 1

    They tend to pad requirements if they think they'll get hundreds of responses, they'll still hire the BCIT and Ryerson grads. Most embedded devices are composed of a some I/O, a processor, and programmable logic. Despite the other posts here, you really don't need differential calculus to design I/O devices, or quantum physics to make an iPod.

  15. Two very obvious problems by xenocide2 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Firstly, you're looking in exactly the wrong order. If you were looking for a research assistant, would you ask a student you know, or would you put an ad in the local college paper? Hopefully, you'd choose a student you know. You have a good idea of who they are, their work ethic, etc. And you won't have to somehow sort through the flood of applications you'd receive in a newspaper posting. So a newspaper is exactly the last place to look for most jobs, unless the employer is hoping to find the cheapest among several qualified applicatants. I don't believe Intel actually places ads in papers; some places prefer that you take interest in their company and seek them out instead. If you want to match your cirriculum to employers needs, I'd hope your "institute" has a few industry connections, since this is often a good avenue to your students actually getting a job. These are the people you need to talk to.

    Secondly, 2 years training to design microprocessors? What exactly would they be doing, that only takes two years to go from high school education, to mastered enough to be productive? Programming microcontroller devices, maybe. Designing them in today's market takes a knowledge of what's been done in the past, and ways one might improve them. The industry is simply too competitive to accept the kinds of mistakes and inefficiencies a novice would make when multiplied by a large scale production run. A 4 year degree is a good start, nothing more. Many of the largest chip design places have internal education to address academic cirriculum shortcomings. These would also be good people to talk to.

    Finally, what do you think qualifies as a distinction between a microcontroller and an embedded system? I'd say not much. 386's are being used more often now, in places where DOS or Linux can do far more than a PIC traditionally does. And if you're seeing so many postings for embedded systems, remember that a number of these projects are likely for US military applications, and non-US citizens, like Canadians, are usually unemployable in that field as a security precaution. If this still seems fruitful, why not adjust your cirriculum to match the demand you see right now?

    --
    I Browse at +4 Flamebait

    Open Source Sysadmin

  16. not dead ...Netcraft. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "At the bare minimum, to be able design even a relatively simple chip you need the following classes: "

    You two are talking two different levels (OP mentions controllers). A computer engineer is the one designing the microprocessor.* Then there's the person who takes both ICs and discrete components and lays them out onto a substrate (PCB usually).

    *several someone's actually.

    As far as microcontrollers? Not dead by any means.

  17. Make.com by SteeldrivingJon · · Score: 1

    One route for you to take might be to build cool hacks, put them on a blog, and promote them via Make.com and similar sites.

    Build a reputation and contacts that way, and it might turn into job offers.

    --
    September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
    1. Re:Make.com by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jesus, you're retarded. Did you READ the question? " ... and are looking at the job market as one way of warranting specialization training".

    2. Re:Make.com by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

      Make Magazine was so disappointing. Their "cool hacks" were almost exclusively stuff like "I got this thingamabob called a PIC controller, which somehow controls an output signal based on the input. I don't know how it works, but that's not important right now".

      It's the "American Chopper" of technology - if this is the mindset and attention span of our future engineers, then nothing can forestall the apocalypse. I for one, welcome our new Chinese overlords.

      --
      I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  18. Re:Companies tend to 'over qualify' job descriptio by ADRA · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ah, sweet BCIT. I worked on embedded systems development (Not exactly chip design mind you), and I delt with the challenge adequately. Another friend, same school, same company ended up being one of their most proficient developers. Just because you don't get the entirety of the education to be entry 'qualified' doesn't mean you're incapable of ever picking it up. Given the chance, many can perform quite well above their current educational level.

    With that said, I think 2 years experience would be a challenging task. Then again, they don't necessarily hire entry level chip developers. They could start you off with more remedial jobs and make you work in-house a while.

    The question really is, are there -any- chip manufacturers still around in the Americas? Well, there seems to be a few big-houses still around, and if you're really questioning to keep the program or not, why not ask these companies personally? Maybe you could even arange career seminars with soon-to-be graduates?

    --
    Bye!
  19. Wrong place by cerberusss · · Score: 1
    Maybe you look in the wrong place.

    I advise you to:

    • Check out the semi-governmental research institutes
    • Not limit yourself to your own country
    --
    8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
  20. Clarification: board design not chip design by blanchae · · Score: 5, Informative
    First, thanks for all the comments, (even the negative ones). I intended to mean board level design or circuit design not chip design. I know that chip design is beyond a 2 year technology program and so is embedded systems like the ARM.

    In response to other postings, we do have industry contacts but you must appreciate that when an educational institute comes knocking asking for information, the priority on answering is way down on the list of things to do like emptying the garbage can...

    I agree that word of mouth is a common method of finding suitable employees and that's what I did when I was looking to hire employees when I was in industry. The issue is how to track the "word of mouth" career offerings?

    Slashdot is on the pulse of technology and seems like a quick and dirty method of acquiring data. How much value is put on the data is dependant on the quality and quantity.

    1. Re:Clarification: board design not chip design by ABeowulfCluster · · Score: 1

      The way to track the word of mouth technology is to go to the local trade shows. In Vancouver you can find events posted on BCtechnology.com Another method of feedback is to contact your alumni and get feedback on what courses they 'should have' had more info on. I find it sad that people on slashdot do not know what kind of courses are taught at the Institutes of Technology.

    2. Re:Clarification: board design not chip design by multimediavt · · Score: 1

      In response to other postings, we do have industry contacts but you must appreciate that when an educational institute comes knocking asking for information, the priority on answering is way down on the list of things to do like emptying the garbage can...

      Well, frankly, you have very poor relations with your corporate partners and need to work on this. I work in academia and can tell you that any of our faculty, or myself, that picks up the phone and calls one of our vendor contacts will have an answer immediately, if not within 24 to 48 hours. If you're not getting the same level of response then either you're doing something wrong, or your institution and/or students have a bad reputation.

      You need to make friends with the engineers in the companies you're working with, not just the HR and management types. If you have a good relationship with multiple people within an organization, there's no reason for you not to get your questions answered. Again, unless you're constantly bugging them, or they're not interested in you or your students because they're just not that good.

      I apologize if something I said upset you, but if you're having this much difficulty you need to take a step back and evaluate your situation objectively. If I may ask, what companies have you been targeting with your search and inquiries? Also, what's your current placement rate for your students, and their average salaries coming out? Do you have any alumni that would be interested in assisting? Please feel free to email me privately as there maybe be some additional assistance I can provide.

    3. Re:Clarification: board design not chip design by SydShamino · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We do plenty of board-level design using microcontrollers, FPGAs, DSPs, and internally-designed ASICs.

      But... we don't hire 2-year degrees for design positions. Most university graduates we hire have GPAs of 3.8 or better and still start out with a year or two in applications engineering before they transition to R&D, or sales, or marketing, or manufacturing. (It's a good place to work.)

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    4. Re:Clarification: board design not chip design by mnmn · · Score: 1

      Oh I thought you meant chip design too.

      I doubt its dead. In fact I suspect the market for board-level design is huge given the variety of products and design tools out there.

      Its something I'm interested in too, but I suspect a college degree would teach me less than 2 full years with copper-clad boards, design tools, sample board companies and tonnes of CPU samples from around (and their programmers).

      Hopefully the curriculum you design is hands-on enough.

      --
      "Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
    5. Re:Clarification: board design not chip design by TroubleMagnet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a former board designer I can tell you someone with a 2 year degree will not be getting hired on as a board designer fresh out of school by all but a very few places. Frankly they are not going to have the combination of skills needed. Add in some good industry experience and some personal initiative and they might have a shot. A good board designer will need to know logic design, low level programming (assembly and/or C probably), tranmission line and power analysis skills. I really don't see packing all that in to a two year program, especially not with time to build up a firm math and physics base. We did hire layout people with two year degrees that simply routed the traces on the board but that is mainly a CAD tool job, not engineering.

    6. Re:Clarification: board design not chip design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Sorry to post AC, but I just walked out of a meeting where I'm deciding which MCU to use on a project that will deploy 4 to 10 million units. When we hire for such projects we do not have formal requirements, but if that person does not have a BSEE they will need to have 10+ years of uC experance along with analog, RF and VHDL (e.g., Verilog) experance. In fact, we seldom hire with less than 10 years for a BSEE. And yes, we do pay dearly for such people, but then they stay here for decades.


      At the risk of being negative, I put less stock in 2 year degrees or tech training than I do in hobby experance. My ideal candidate would have a BSEE and a BA/masters in something different, say music composition or Japanese lit. Well rounded people who can think and have a broader understanding of the world are far more important than someone with only a BSEE/MSEE/PhD from MIT. Solving the wrong problem helps no one. If I had to choose between a new 2/4 year technically only candidate or a liberal arts BA who built, say, their own doppler weather radar I'd take the poly sci major hands down. 2 year tech only degrees folks have no place in design.

    7. Re:Clarification: board design not chip design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "experance"??? Dude, I wouldn't sweep the floor for someone with your shit-poor attitude and your atrocious spelling.

  21. Re:Companies tend to 'over qualify' job descriptio by ABeowulfCluster · · Score: 1

    PMC Sierra designs their own chips. SFU's Enigneering school has a intro course to chip design, but it basically covers putting a couple gates onto silicon. Teaching theory isn't the same thing as teaching technology or good design practice.

  22. The firms that were hiring and now are not... by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    perhaps? But then, that would be just too obvious...

  23. You need to look at what happened to this industry by GrpA · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's not dofficult to work out what happened. I started out in this career path long ago, straight out of high school. Back then, I was designing Z-80 based computer systems... Later, I went on to MCS-48 and MCS-51 based designs as well as flirting with x86 and 68xx(x) architectures at times.

    I was pretty good at it. My success ratio exceeded 90% throughout my career. And I was a one-man engineering lab... From design (including PLDs) through fabrication, prototyping and production following successful prototyping. Many of my successful projects were valued in the millions of dollars to the companies I worked for, back in the 80's.

    But there's not many people with those sort of skills, so over time, employers couldn't get the skills cheaply and stopped advertising for those people. They turned to PCs to perform jobs that would normally be performed on micro's or found other ways to do things. Most design work became an offshoot to inhouse production teams and never really became a critical business component.

    And when someone did have an engineer with those skills, they tended to undervalue them. I worked for many employers as a part of their churn. I replaced a cheap engineer and they weren't prepared to pay extra for the skills I brought to the position. Not all employers can see the value of someone who can design a modem out of three 20pin PALs or produce an engine management unit if all they want is someone to design their latest pinpad.

    The lack of people who could cut perfect code in assembly language and manually route circuits more efficiently than the auto-routing algorythms of the day became less important as circuit design apps got better and processors got fast enough that high level languages could be used instead of low level languages.

    So more people came in to the industry, but lacked the skills. Employers worked around it by asking less of them, but that diluted the products and so in turn diluted the value of such engineers to their employers.

    Universities and technical education centres simply couldn't produce the skills in people coming up. This further diluted the available skills resources.

    And no matter that you can get away with this 95% of the time, the other 5% of the time, you need the low-level skills. Otherwise your success ratio tend to drop below 50%.

    It got to the point where the average wage earner made around $40K per year, and Electronic Engineers in my city (Major capital city) would average about $35K.

    So I usually left after a while, chasing salary increases with other companies, when the ones I worked for didn't want to pay.. Until one day I realised I could make more for my family just by doing basic low-level tech work as a PC assembler. So I threw away my old skills and became another tech on the production line.

    Everyone else I knew - people who designed their own home PCs from the chips up only ten years earlier did the same... they became miners, postmen, builders. The work was less stressful, less hours and paid better. Some stayed. The lucky ones found companies that looked after them. It was rare.

    But now with only the diluted skills left in the marketplace, employers had a problem. I would speak to old employers who seemed suprised that their new projects were failing and no engineers were left. They wondered why it took a 386 processor and six weeks of C development to develop and debug a replacement to a keypad that cost $300 per unit to make that replaced one I designed for them from concept to prototype using $30 of parts with an MCS51 just six years earlier.

    So Business got out of that industry also. No engineering skills means it's not viable business. So they got into PC software development or similar related industries and just dropped that line of revenue from their business model.

    So, No new low-level skills, No engineers with the skills available to fix the problem and no positions because companies let this source of revenue die out.

    And the industry disappeared.

    --
    Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
  24. Yes, it is. by Vo0k · · Score: 4, Informative

    I licked quite a bit of the microcontroller-based embedded design, and from what I saw, only amateurs, and only most clueless of them use separate processor and controller. In the past it was making sense. Nowadays the market is saturated with microcontrollers that carry enormous amounts of extra hardware on chip and a hour with soldering iron spent on including a dedicated controller chip in the project can be easily avoided by a hour of browsing the catalogues for derivative that has that controller on-chip. Price increases are often negligible. Speeds are amazing.

    www.fairchildsemi.com/products/micro/ - SOIC-8 package, the size of an optocoupler - 8 pins, thingy would fit on the nail of your pinky, whole, with surface-mount pins. 64 bytes of RAM, 1-2K of program eprom, 64 bytes of data eprom, clocks, power monitoring, wake-up on any pin, 6 GPIO lines, eeprom writing, watchdog, serial output generator, sleep mode, idle mode, oscillator, and quite a few other goodies.

    On the other end of the scale: http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/4535 : 75MHz 64M addressable, ethernet, 1w, spi, CAN, 3x RS232, 8x bidi 8-bit GPIO, IP stack plus UDP, TCP, DHCP, ICMP, TFTP, IGMP in ROM, Wake-On-Lan, watchdog, clocks, and God knows what more.

    Add to that DSPs which are quite specific but achieve speeds higher than newest pentiums and athlons in their tasks (and often carry some "extra", add PC for heavyweight number-crunching and user interaction and you see:

    Controllers are dead. Microcontroller is way better because it allows for just the same on the hardware side, while vastly simplifying the interface side. With your current knowledge you should catch up and learn microcontroller-based design pretty fast.

    --
    Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
    1. Re:Yes, it is. by binford2k · · Score: 1

      I licked quite a bit of the microcontroller-based embedded design,

      How did it taste?

    2. Re:Yes, it is. by Vo0k · · Score: 1

      like 9V battery.

      --
      Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
    3. Re:Yes, it is. by Tired_Blood · · Score: 1

      Licking live microcontroller-based embedded designs?
      I hope you know what you're doing. Such behavior could expose you to an enormous amount of RISC.

      --
      This is not my sig.
  25. Re:Companies tend to 'over qualify' job descriptio by Goalie_Ca · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There's a lot of IC development done here in north america (and even here in vancouver). Admitidly a lot of the fabrication and rest is done overseas for cost and to be honest, poor environmental regulations. Chips are quite a concoction of nasty shit.

    For some reason lots of people also forget fpga development. At SFU we got into FPGA and ISA/PCI design in our second year (although not anymore since they started babying the curriculum to "double the opportunity"). We still do our VLSI class in 4th year though. Desinging chips is a lot more than merely designing logic.

    --

    ----
    Go canucks, habs, and sens!
  26. Well, there's this and there's that. by Dark+Coder · · Score: 3, Informative

    There are basically three categories of microprocessor design. And armed with an electronic degree, one can decide which area to focus on:

    1. CUSTOM BOARD INTEGRATOR
    3. PROGRAMMERS (both HW and Software)
    3. THE MICROPROCESSOR DESIGNER

    All areas entail different stages (and thus different skills). They basically cover requirements, designs, coding, integration, testing and maintenance. It is entirely possible to have a lifelong career in just within one of those stages, particularly test and maintenance.

    Even so, each area utilize different skill sets.

    1. Lowest man on the totem pole (but still well-paid) is the custom board integrator. Involves research and selection of hardware components using interchangeable interfaces (i.e., PCI, PCI-X, LVDS, Rocket I/O, VME and lesser known interfaces such as USB, Firewire, Parallel and serial). Testing of each HW components (not to get bad capacitors) are a non-trivial effort. Most low-budget company skimp these component testings. Nevertheless, it entails buildup around THE microprocessor.

    2. Midway is the programmer. VHDL, Synoptic and many other custom hardware programming languages which tends to be chipset-specific. Bulk of the job market are in this category.

    3. The elite is THE microprocessor designer. Intel, AMD, IBM, Motorola, Hitachi, Fujitsu, Xilinx and many others make uses of M-Designers. Most of them tend to be cultivated from within each company. Much research material have to be digested and assimulated to be able to design one of today's complexity. Best and easiest break into this arena is startup company, successful or not.

    I suggest, for a startup university department, you shoot for #2 as the majority of your curriculums. This ensures that these skill-sets are transportable to either #1 or #3, depending on how good they grasp the elementary logics.

    1. Re:Well, there's this and there's that. by ediron2 · · Score: 1

      What about ASIC (Application Specific IC's)?

      It ain't designing the next Power chip, but I know a few ASIC and other firms that spend their days taking problem and burping out custom solutions for car manufacturers, electronic gadget firms, avionics, etc.

      And just a couple years ago I kept hearing about the analog/digital ASIC hybrid market. Is that at all interesting?

      And then there are those 'brave new world' things like smart dust and nanomachines. This one tends to use skills from chip *manufacturing*, not design, and the guys I know in it have advanced degrees in physics or materials science, since they're often stumbling around in uncharted territory and need to know how physical properties might appear at that small scale.

      I think your advice is rock-solid, by the way. My key reason for chiming in was to point out places (some are quite fun) that chip-geek friends of mine are working that might not come to mind from reading your msg.

      Oh, and look toward whether anything big happening at overlap points between chip design and biology... that's one I don't know beans about, but I'd be surprised if there aren't skill overlaps, like my nanotech colleagues.

  27. Not dead yet! by Peter+Simpson · · Score: 4, Informative


    [finally, something on Slashdot that I can comment intelligently about]

    I work for a small (6 EE, 10 ME, 20 Industrial designers) design firm. Small and large companies come to us for all kinds of design work, some of it is development or improvement of EE designs.

    We're always doing some sort of microprocessor/controller design, as well as CPLD and FPGA programmable logic. Pretty much every job we do incorporates one or more micros. In the past three years, I've used PICs, TI's MSP430, Freescales MC9S12, Atmels and probably a couple more. Development is done on PCs, running something like a Metroworks IDE. Sometimes we use an embedded OS like uCos, sometimes not.

    At least from where I sit, microprocessors are still very much relevant. I'm currently working on an embedded controller for a mechanical system -- two motors, limit switches, temperature sensors and two serial communication ports to other controllers not built by us. There's analog and digital interface design, the micro is a Freescale 9S12, power supply regulators and more. Lots of fun!

  28. Expensive cars and trophy wives - yuk! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    The reward for all this is the chance to laugh at those better dressed and housed than you, in their posh cars with their trophy wives,...

    I laugh at them anyway.

    For one, spending all that money on a depreciating piece of machinery (Car) when it could be invested somewhere to actually make money instead of it being a flashy money pit. I think London has some institutions that could aid in that. ;-)

    Two, the trophy wives - argggg! They're fun at first, but it is impossible to make enough money to satisfy them! I know this doctor (here in the States) who got his trophy wife. He really wishes he didn't.

    So, that poor bastard is in a hell of his own already. The car crapping out on the side of the road was just one more irritant in his little hell.

  29. Re:You need to look at what happened to this indus by Jasin+Natael · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I wonder about this, and worry a little bit. These companies certainly need people with those skills, so ... would society benefit from a return to some form of indentured servitude? Perhaps if companies had protected their image over the past 30 years instead of letting hotshot MBA's slit their cash cows' throats and ride it into the ground, screwing all their customers in the process, then the stable companies could be trusted to provide a lifelong career for someone who chooses to learn these skills. I think that in the current environment, there aren't enough jobs to entice someone to get the necessary training. Turnover in skilled disciplines -- from both the employer's and employee's sides -- is way too high to justify the kind of dedication it takes to learn to do these things well.

    It would be nice to have enough faith in the long-term plans of a company that, eg, when IBM or Ford Motor Group needs someone who can do this, an employee could be sent to school for 2-4 years with a reasonable expectation of some long-term benefits.

    Lately, it seems like you need 10-15 years of experience just to be an asset rather than a liability in some fields. So why would an employer hire a college graduate for a reasonable salary, when the chances are next-to-nothing that this person will work for them long enough to contribute to the company? And who will guarantee that some new MBA won't fire him for some stupid reason? I once lost a job because some middle-manager decided that being "late" to work was defined as punching in more than 3 minutes after your scheduled time, and if you were late more than 8 times a year, you should be fired.

    Back to the core of the topic: It's the question of Freddy Fastfingers, the coder who can churn out functional code super-fast, but for every hour of his work, the company invests 2-3 hours of manpower fixing, explaining, or otherwise ameliorating the effects of solveable flaws in his code. Does he even deserve to have a job? Probably not. The question is, is it reasonable for the company to nurse his career for 10 years until he's learned his way around in his field, or should they find a way to do his job with less-skilled labor, using tools that (while overpriced and underperforming) aren't filled with amateurish, glaring bugs?

    Employers can't trust Employees to stick with their company, and Employees can't trust Employers not to fire them. It's a vicious cycle, and it's destroyed much of what made this country a leader in high technology in the first place.

    --
    True science means that when you re-evaluate the evidence, you re-evaluate your faith.
  30. Re:You need to look at what happened to this indus by baadger · · Score: 1

    As a university student in the UK having just finished my first year of electronic engineering, and thinking about specialising in processor architecture myself, I find your post both immensely insightful and immensely frightening.

    Would you by any chance have any added insight to offer for someone in my position?

  31. try asking on piclist.org by iamnotanumber6 · · Score: 1

    there are literally billions of 8- and 16-bit microcontrollers shipped each year. so there must be jobs out there somewhere! granted, it only takes one designer to make a product that can ship a hundred thousand units - and the companies doing that probably won't hire a two-year certificate guy to design that. but there's also a lot of small-run and custom work, done by smaller engineering shops.

    go ask your question on the piclist mailing list, you'll get a lot more coherent answers than the ones here.

  32. Same product, new name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Check out "Embedded Systems Design" at http://www.embedded.com/ - I think you may find that what you mean by microcontroller design is covered by this. It's not that the field has gone away, it's just been renamed.

  33. Re:You need to look at what happened to this indus by ggruschow · · Score: 1

    Thanks for taking the time to post that excellent history of the profession. It's folks like you that keep me reading here.

  34. Ask the distributors by Not+Invented+Here · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's a lot of these chips selling, so somebody must be buying them. Have you tried putting your question to the local offices of the chip companies?

  35. Small companies and start ups by Pulse_Instance · · Score: 1

    I went to a Canadian Post-secondary institute where we where taught how to design and build a micro-controller (we used the HC6811). Since that point in time seen any jobs advertised where I could get a job doing micro-controller design, to be fair I haven't looked specifically for that though. I got my current job through word of mouth and we may be doing some micro work coming up for a project. The one reason I really liked our micro courses where that instead of being told that all pieces are accessed through addresses we actually figured out the entire memory space then wired everything. Another great thing that at least I took away from the course is that code bloat is not good no matter what you are working on, whether it be a device with a total RAM of 1K, 32MB (which I currently am working the most with) or 4GB it is better to have code that is a small as it can be. What I am trying to say is that if you are looking at the possibility of removing the course try to replace it with a course that can still teach at least the principles that I mentioned as I have found them to be extremely useful.

  36. Re:You need to look at what happened to this indus by mjfrazer · · Score: 1

    GrpA, there are still some small co's doing interesting things in niche areas. Interested? Shoot me some email!

  37. still important by fortunatus · · Score: 2, Interesting
    there is A LOT of embedded processor work out there. i work for a company that is constantly looking for programmers who are accustomed to working with embedded processors. i personally would be glad to hire a talented 2 year tech. cert. level person as a programmer on my systems.

    here's thoughts:

    1) companies advertise for 4 year engineers and higher, they simply don't see the need to advertise for 2 year certificate level applicants. you need to train your people in networking to get around that. also provide placement service.

    2) microcontroller work is good experience, and there is a lot out there, but my company works with SOAC - system on a chip - level embedded systems. these are complete, very high performance, large computer systems targeted to DSP applications, in my case video compression. it is far more sophisticated than a microcontroller system. yet the skills of working with software to controll interrupt controlled on chip I/O devices are the key.

    3) hardware design is handled by highly skilled designers who are working with GHz signals and very high density components. the need for 2 year level applicants is in software.

    4) it will be crucial for your 2 year level applicants to be well versed in the basic vocabulary of Computer Science (data structures and algorithms) and well experienced in embedded software. as far as I am concerned, experience designing hardware around a microcontroller is excellent way to increase software savy.

    all in all, I don't think the hardware experience is the sell, except insofar as it bolsters the software skills.

  38. Micro design by thoriphes · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm a recent college grad and I took the embedded course they offered here as my main design course. We worked with Atmel AT91 (ARM) using eCos as the embedded OS. In the course we not only worked on the microprocessor architecture, but also interfaced it with hardware that we designed and built ourselves (not just your run of the mill "read the ambient temperature and do something about it" projects, but stuff like building signal boosters, RF controllers, ethernet controllers, etc). Needless to say, it was a fairly taxing course. I really enjoyed the class and took a lot out of it so much that I decided to make it my career path. Companies that I have interviewed with loved the experience I got out of the course saying most other candidates having taken some embedded course never go as far as making the onboard LEDs blink in some special pattern or displaying text on an LCD. The issue I found with looking for the right embedded job was it seemed like being proficient in design was merely a secondary qualification. Most companies working with embedded systems expect candidates to be specialized, if not at least familiar, with specific technologies. Look at Motorola's job postings. They not only expect some embedded experience, but also experience with stuff like TDMI, RF, or sometimes even TCP/IP. Unfortunately I didn't land my ideal embedded systems design job. In fact, the company I now work with hired me because of my embedded experience, but the system they're using that was embedded-based is being converted to be run from a full-scale computer system. I can't say for sure whether or not companies are moving away from microprocessors, but as with any industry, demands for certain resources (in this case, processing power/capability) are increasing. Microprocessors may one day not be sufficient for large-scale projects.

    1. Re:Micro design by Dragon_Hilord · · Score: 1

      What university did you go to? I'm quite interrested in this program

      --
      Cheers, DH.
    2. Re:Micro design by thoriphes · · Score: 1

      Virginia Tech. Coincidentally the course was called "Embedded systems design"

  39. Probably just moved upscale by iabervon · · Score: 1

    Microcontroller-based systems are definitely popular these days, so it's clearly not dead. Pick up a DigiKey catalogue and look at just how many different microcontrollers they stock and sell in unit quantities; somebody's got to be using them. And you are finding postings for jobs requiring a university degree, which means there are people working at that level.

    I'd never heard of a tech school program specializing in microcontrollers before, and there's definitely a substantial amount of amateur work in the area these days. I'd guess that the postings you're seeing are trying to eliminate people without formal training, and don't realize that there's anything else to include as an option other than a university degree. Have your students tried applying for jobs that ask for a university degree? (Half the time, job postings ask for things that they don't actually expect to get, just so that they can turn down people they don't want for being unqualified instead of for less clear reasons; there's the classic demand for longer experience in something than it's existed.)

  40. Your definition is flawed by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

    "For them good code is what does the thing it has to do."

    I would take that as axoimatic (overlooking the poor wording).

    "For me good code is what A, does it has to do B, in the least possible time, C until the end of the world, and D, does not make bigger problems, as the ones it solves."

    Criteria B may violate criteria A in some real-time applications. Criteria C is impossible to meet. If criteria A is met, and criteria D is violated, it must be a requirements problem.

    1. Re:Your definition is flawed by SchwarzeReiter · · Score: 1

      We both know, thats nitpicking what you do here, so I dont comment on all your comments, just the last. Yeah, its mostly a requirements problem. You see, the requirements are mostly written by marketing people, or people with very little overseeing of the task involved. To make the device accepted by the regulatory people, and both get the filled out check from the customer, there are sometimes trade-offs involved, and last minute requirements changes. You can say that you dont implement something, because it just does not fit in your architecture, but then that client goes somewhere else next time. We dont write code for our own pleasure here, we are doing it for customers. If we were doing open source, we could do code thats elegant, but you see gasoline costs are a little higher here in Europe. And I ignore all comments on my english skills, they are just fine for my needs. Im able to speak my native language fluently, and I also speek a second foreign language just as bad as english. As in the past people commenting on my english skills couldnt speak anything other than english, I just dont see why I should feel myself bad, because I make mistakes.

  41. Not dead, but requires more than two years... by FirmWarez · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm general manager for an embedded design house.

    Dead? What? In a day and age when everything around you has a uC of some sort in it? Now are a lot of those consumer products being designed in Elbonia? Of course, but still, there's a lot going on. This year I've worked on projects using small (say PIC like) microcontrollers in:
          house arrest system
          sports watch
          in store kiosk (touch screen controller, the brain of the kiosk is an embedded x86 running Linux)
          cargo container status device
    Of course we've also used embedded x86/pentium class machines, ARM, Coldfire...

    There are huge volumes of microcontrollers shipped from 4-bit (just like those obsolete mainframes making obsolete money for obsolete banks) to 32-bit and up. Not to mention DSPs. But I think the days of super simple designs, say replacing a mechanical timer on a washer, are long gone. Sure you may be replacing a mechanical timer, but you've got to understand so much more, like being able to run on nanowatts or making the device intrinsically safe.

    Unless somebody has a lot of talent and a lot of experience, we hire the two-year types as bench techs. Four years for an engineering position. Things are so fast and competitive that the engineer also has to be something of a project manager. A strong understanding of hardware, firmware, and software is important. Yes, I think there's a huge difference between the mindset needed to write good firmware and good software. To write good firmware you've got to understand what's going on in the hardware. Plus you've got to be able to understand that yes sir it is indeed possible to toggle a single bit without doing an operation on a whole register! :)

    The people who claim "ah, it's dying because for only a few dollars/cents/credits more you can have a whole embedded super-whoopAMDIntelMot128bit blah blah" don't understand capitalism. 1) if it costs more, um, it costs more, and somebody will do it cheaper, this we call competition, and blast it whether or not Adam Smith is right it happens, and 2) if I want to monitor a real world event or spin a motor or some such I can do it with a PIC/AVR/8051 faster than you can get your makefile working right just the core of your OS. Time is money, at least in my business. The right tool for the job. And sometimes a $0.35 PIC is the right tool. But because of the competition and current needs in the field, the project that $0.35 PIC goes in to probably needs to be designed by someone with more than two years of tech school. The code may be easy, but understanding enough about battery chemistry, thermal concerns, and other deeper issues means that making the whole thing run for three years from one set of batteries while on a ship somewhere in the Pacific...you see what I mean, it's no longer just "hey designer write some code to spin a motor".

    It seems that a lot of what we do are projects that are either "extreme" one way or another -- environmental, regulatory, power/life requirements -- or are a small piece of a much larger and more complex system. Again, something that requires a higher level of thought and understanding.

    We've seen more and more applications for the smaller and cheaper super tiny 6 and 8 pin micros. It's absolutely mindboggling how many places these things end up, and low margin but high volume works. Moore's law not only means more transistors on the same amount of real estate...it also means you can get the same number of transistors as you did before for much much cheaper.

  42. I don't think... the problem is elsewhere by weeb0 · · Score: 1, Informative

    I'm currently seeking for that kind of job.

    What I've seen, is that the circle of embedded coder/designer is small. So if you are a new graduate, there will be a lot of senior ppl wanting to get the same job than you. So you never can start :-/ or you have to find the place where the senior was working. There is plenty of good jobs, but need to find'em, because the don't get posted on jobs website for long.

    I'm from montreal if you look for a microcontroller designer/coder! I'm interested!

    -I'm an ing.jr.

  43. In the conventional sense? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Probably.

  44. My $0.02 by pestilence669 · · Score: 1

    There aren't a lot of companies producing their own hardware anymore. Long gone are the days of DEC, Sun, HP, SGI, IBM, and others producing their own microprocessors and hardware. With consolodation comes fewer jobs.

    I have noticed that many embedded projects I've worked on leverage FPGAs, quite heavily. While companies typically prefer to purchase premade cores, there's still a ton of integration work... memory controllers, DSP functions, and co-processors.

  45. Can OSX run on AMD platform? by stanleywong · · Score: 1

    Can OSX run on AMD platform? In 2005, Steve Jobs said that OSX is processor independent and cross platform in design from day one. I wonder whether OSX can run on AMD processors. If yes, we can DIY Mac. Is it possible?