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Windows Genuine Advantage Makes Few Friends
With a reminder to "not get silly here," ocbwilg joins several others in casting doubt on the source of the rumor about a mass turn-off:
"A 'front-line tech-support drone' who gets paid $12 an hour to read the support script is somehow going to know what sort of top-secret plans Microsoft has for the next six months? I highly doubt it. It sounds more like the sort of thing that a help desk drone would say to try to persuade a clueless computer user to do things their way.Then, of course, there's the fact that if you install WGA today on a pirated copy of Windows, all you get is the notification message that pops up. You don't get shut down, and you don't even get cut off from Windows security updates (which are truly the only updates that matter, and even they aren't that good). I find it very difficult to believe that Microsoft is going to go from 'Hey, your copy of Windows doesn't look genuine, but you can still install our security updates' to 'I don't know if your system is pirated or not because you haven't installed WGA, but even if it is a legitimate copy I'm just going to shut you down simply because I have no way of verifying it.' Especially not in the span of 6 months."
Along the same lines, another reader asks "Why are we making all this fuss over what could just be a rumor unwittingly spread by a clueless help desk worker? Since when did help-desk techs become privy to future, unannounced plans for a company, let alone ones as sensitive as this one?"
Besides the dubious source, the sheer scale of such an action convinces reader Willith that it's not going to happen — he promises to eat his hat if it does:"The thing to look it is how this might affect legitimate corporate versions of XP — and by that, I mean VLK versions actually being used in an enterprise setting.The company for which I work has more than 100,000 copies of XP running in offices on six continents, participating in one of the largest Active Directory installations in the world. Every system's load is tightly controlled and managed, and I can tell you that there are no copies of WGA anywhere on any of those desktops (I've seen the SMS reports). Nor will there ever be.
People say to 'vote with your dollars,' but your dollars, and my dollars, don't matter. Large corporate dollars matter — like the kind of dollars that can outfit a company's world-wide IT needs. WGA has no place on a configuration-controlled and managed enterprise desktop, and MS would never risk upsetting their real customers — corporate Windows & Office sales — to emplace something like this."
Working machines matter to smaller users, too, though, and Kremit mentions reports spotted online of "Dell desktops, valid CDs, and other licensed systems having problems with WGA," writing "When these systems stop working, people are going to flip. To them, this will be akin to the computer crashing and taking their data along with it."
Other readers had some specific gripes about the way WGA currently misfires in their own experience; Jnaujok maintains that it hasn't worked well for him:
"What about my two perfectly legitimately licensed machines at home that fail the 'Windows Genuine Advantage' test every time they update WGA? Considering that one of them is my copy of Advanced Server 2003, I won't be exactly happy when it gets killed this fall. (Hey, I just use it for the mail server program because I can't stand sendmail.)And I'm just a little bitty guy with one server running. What happens when this hits some company's server farm and they all shut down? How much liability is Microsoft going to have when that happens?
And every time they 'fix' my copy after the new WGA comes out, I have to make manual registry changes. Can you imagine having to do that on a 500 machine server farm?"
Not everyone objects to the idea of harsher treatment for unlicensed copies of Windows; several readers welcomed the idea of more active license revocation by Microsoft as beneficial to the world of free software; WhiteWolf666 described a turn in that direction on Microsoft's part as a "solution to the Linux pricing problem," writing
"35 percent of PC software is pirated. I'm guessing that Windows XP is highly represented in that group (of pirated software; i.e. at least 30% of worldwide Windows installs are not legal). If even 10% of that user base decides to switch to Linux rather than pay the Windows tax, it'll be a substantial marketshare boost.Reader soren42 lays out what this might mean: "If you suddenly force all the non-legal users off your platform, you're forcing them to use something else. Which means, in turn, more demand for OpenOffice, games on Linux, GAIM, ad infinitum — until there is a more, better, complete Linux end-user software stack to seriously compete with Windows."And the remaining 90%? They might decide that the MSRP cost of Windows is too close to the MSRP of a brand-new dual-core Mac.
I'm thrilled. MS has ridden on piracy marketshare for far too long. I hope they do every thing they possibly can to stamp out software piracy, and I hope they succeed."
Other readers share that sentiment, with a twist: on the basis that remote turn-off really is in the near future of Windows, some, like reader ewhac, say they're through with Microsoft: "I just built a brand new machine, primarily for gaming. Oblivion has been fairly sweet. But it looks like I won't be playing those games anymore — not unless the entire game industry decides to support Linux. ... This is morally and ethically reprehensible, and Microsoft knows it, and apparently doesn't care. Well, I do care. I do not, and shall not, grant consent to Microsoft to remotely snoop on my machine, regardless of their ostensible reasons. If my copy of Windows stops functioning as a result, I will take that as a maliciously incorporated product defect, and respond accordingly."
Most people won't be doing the same, in the eyes of RightSaidFred99, who scoffs "Give me a break, people won't be moving to Linux. They'll find a hack for Windows, they'll buy Windows, or more than likely they'll just buy a new PC that comes with Windows legally bundled. Nobody is moving to Linux because the games aren't there, the thousands of cheesy little Windows applications people love aren't there, it's different (read: scary), and it's a pain in the ass for most joe schmoes to install."
Large corporations running Windows are in a more delicate position. Reader lynx_user_abroad doubts that many corporate users are likely to go seek out either free or illegal alternatives to updated Windows licenses. To the suggestion that many users would do just that, he writes"In a contest between you and them, I'd suspect Microsoft is in the better position to understand the nature of the addiction they have created. And I'd feel safe saying that even if you yourself had succeeded in completely breaking your addiction to Windows, which I suspect you haven't.Most people, most businesses are so hopelessly addicted to Windows that they literally can't even conceptualize their own survival without it. I'm always amused when I read the latest rant about a Windows vulnerability on an IE-only site, or read about some program manager publishing their 'Linux Strategy' document as a PowerPoint chart.
Think of all the hundreds of thousands of Microsoft Office documents the average business has, or the potential millions of dollars worth of intellectual property and business intelligence those documents represent. Now, even if they have the skill and determination to propose leaving Windows behind, think of the complexity of dealing with a customer base which might not be as skilled, or determined."
Several readers say WGA's phone-home capability doesn't affect the users who Microsoft would be expected to target, anyhow. GenericJoe says "Forget that," writing "I am a legitimate user of Windows. I know I am, because I bought a licensed copy from a reputable dealer. Thus, I figure, I don't need the WGA to tell me if I have a legitimate copy. I do have a legitimate copy. ...And Microsoft doesn't get to know anything else about anything I do, or affect me. The idea that I can be held hostage because I don't want to trust software from Microsoft. Well, that's kind of crazy."
Reader riptide_dot offers similar sentiments, asking "What if I did pay for [Windows] and I don't want the WGA software installed? I'm not allowed to use the software I paid for because I don't want to add on to it? That's like selling me a car and telling me that if I refuse to put a spoiler on the back that I won't be allowed to drive it."
As to actually unauthorized users, Akaihiryuu asserts that
Based on the common-sense arguments made above, unless Microsoft manages to not only flatten wrinkles in WGA as it currently operates, but also convince more users that check-ins with Redmond are close enough to their best interest to be worth accepting, mass turn-offs for Windows XP users seem unlikely. Thanks to the readers whose comments helped inform this discussion, especially those quoted above:"[P]eople who knowingly run illegal copies of Windows won't be affected by this in the slightest. These people have been cracking WGA since it came out, first with Javascript, then later with cracked DLLs. I'm sure there will be a crack for this within 24 hours of it being released (there always has been in the past), and these people will able to get it very easily. The only people that this will affect are
- People who think they have a legal copy of Windows but really don't because whoever they bought it from screwed them, and
- People with legal copies who either don't want to run WGA for some reason, or
- People with legal copies who run WGA and it mistakenly identifies their machine as 'not legit.'"
If I've purchased a legitimate copy, and I installed it with a license agreement prior to the release of WGA, by what legal authority can Microsoft disable my operating system?
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
Legit question ... Just curious when and how did this backslash stuff begin? It appears it was timothy's creation?
What amazes me the most is that these things go undetected for so long. With all the paranoid geeks out there, especially on this site, I'd have expected lots of them to be constantly monitoring their systems with network protocol analyzers, especially when a software firewall starts wanting to let a new process out. So, how is it that these "secret" spyware programs are able to hide from us for so long? Why is there so much question about whether or not Windows is phoning home?
Now I am not a hardcore Linux fanboy. I run Windows XP and for the most part enjoy it. I also make my living writing software using MS products. However my home windows installation has decided to say I am not genuine anymore. I quickly figured out how to disable the WGA software/nagware but I am losing critical updates to my box because of WGA being disabled. I know enough leaving unpatched boxes of any OS on the internet is bad. And since I am hooked to a cable modem this concerns me. I've never really been pissed of at MS before. But this is enough for me to tell them to kiss my big hairy american ass. I am seriously considering moving to one of the more user friendly Linux distros like Mandrake or Fedora. My only concern is I will loose my games and .net development tools. I know there are alternatives but I don't know how to use them on Linux. I can't imagine I'm not the only user who feels this way.
Hold up, wait a minute, let me put some pimpin in it
Exactly, what did people expect WGA to be used for? After what use would it be if it just constantly flagged bad guys but did nothing?
BOO
What would be funny is if some hacker found a way to trigger WGA into thinking keys were bad and caused alot of valid computers to be disabled. Could you just imagine a worm that goes from PC to PC and triggers WGA into disabling compters. It could do some major damage. All they would have to do is make a worm/virus that changes computers keys to blacklisted/invalid keys and just sit back and watch the meltdown.
This is simply wild speculation based on unconfirmed and unreliable sources. Its absolute nonsense.
This is nothing more than a TROLL on a grand scale, and you are all guilty of feeding it.
Common sense would not allow any intelligent person to believe this even for a second.
I can tell you without a doubt that if Microsoft decided to shut down the software that I paid for and installed, there would be a large, lucrative class action lawsuit filed against them by individuals and many, many lawsuits filed by the corporations that would lose thousands upon thousands of dollars per day as a result of this. I just hope my firm could get a peice of that delicious and expensive pie.
Not only that, but in a market with emerging OS alternatives, why in the world would Microsoft risk a massive exodus from their software.
This is utter nonsense. Shame on you all.
-- "Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains." Jean Jacques Rousseau
Because the software isn't perfect. There's some fraction of legit users that it detects as being illegitimate. And the more they try to catch every last real pirate, the more innocent people get nailed.
Based on the history of WGA, the people who get falsely detected tend to be ones who change hardware - they replace a motherboard or a hard drive. Well, out of 300 million users, how many do that? Probably, several million. Not all of them get nailed.
But just imagine that 10,000 users get falsely nailed. Now is there harm? Yes, there is.
I'm sorry, you must not be living in the US. Americans have clearly demonstrated that they are far more like a rubber ball than they are silly-putty (sorry, it's the only analogy I could think of to apply to the "...slip through the fingers..." metaphor). The current "in-thing" to do is to test how far those in power can stretch the limits - US goverment has been trying, and succeeding, at establishing new boundaries for its rights over its citizens, while corporations, as always, are trying their hardest to stretch their powers over their customers.
High fructose corn-syrup, television, and sedentary lifestyles have all contributed to making Americans far more passive when it comes to issues about which normal people in other nations would raise hell.
Kindness is not to be found in anything but that it adds to its beauty...
That it will merely cripple the OS, not kill it?
... even though it's completely wrong--you bought the license directly from Microsoft, they just screwed up and issued it twice. (Don't laugh--there are a few corporate customers who have already been bitten by WGA bugs calling them pirates when they have Volume Licensing Agreements.)
Sure, it'll probably start with annoying popups, but I'm sure they can then disable other things. Want to print? Too bad, you get "PRINTED FROM A PIRATE COPY OF XP, CALL 1-888-GET-LEGAL" all over your printouts. Office stops allowing you to save new documents, you can only open old ones.
Next, Outlook refuses to download new email, and all the email you do send out says "SENT FROM A PIRATE COPY OF XP, CALL 1-888-GET-LEGAL" or something. Oh, and you can't have more than, I dunno, 5 open connections to the internet at one time. Enough for light use, but no P2P for you.
Oh, and IE? It refuses to open any websites except Microsoft's "GET LEGAL" page, which is now your homepage. And maybe other Microsoft-owned domains. The firewall is now wonky, too. Only a few things like IE and Outlook can connect out at all (see above).
So yeah, you can still use it and it hasn't been shut down, exactly, but the thumb screws keep getting tighter and tighter the longer you wait to "GET LEGAL"
Although I've used Linux on and off since 95', these moves by Microsoft have already led me to do whatever it takes to make Linux usable to me. The irony is that although I use a pirated copy of Windows, I still ended up buying it several times (comes with laptop purchases). But that's not good enough for them. I always replace the legal versions with the pirated ones because they make it so difficult to reinstall the way I want (what with those stupid restore only disks). I always thought that games would get me to install Vista, but now that I've been using Linux as much as I have, I'm content to keep on playing UT2004 just so that I don't have to dirty myself with Vista.
So there you go Microsoft. I was using XP as my primary operating system a year ago and now I hardly ever boot into it anymore. All because of your restrictive business model. You made updates such a pain in the ass to get, that freakin' Gentoo became the easier alternative.
Not only that, but my friends and family all view me as the computer expert. The computer expert who won't touch Windows because it's become such a pain to use. Those people already know it's a pain to use, but when they start hearing it from me, they know it's not just them. I doubt I'd be able to get any of them to convert to Linux, but I do know at least two friends who got Macs because of my Windows bashing (combined with their own experiences). You're not only driving people away, you're creating billboards for Mac and Linux. I would actually like Windows to be successful, but I need to be able to do my work without having to fight with my OS. You may pick your fight with me, but you'll just see me walking away.
Isn't Vista going to be released early next year? If they shut off someone's copy of XP, and if it's important enough to them, they might go buy a legit copy of XP. If they have to shell out money for XP in September, how likely is it that they'll turn around and buy Vista come January. Seems they should have timed this to perfectly coincide with the Vista release for maximum profitability. If this story is true, then I see this strategy backfiring. Either in less (intially high priced) Vista sales (cause they just bought XP) or in people deciding to try out an alternative while waiting for Vista comes out.
I've been frustrated with PCs ever since my first 486. It's never been perfect, and I reminisce about the good old days of the Atari ST and Amiga. I was Windows free for a while, with a custom built linux and at the university I was attending the only annoyance was receiving MS formated documents. Then I slowly got enticed back on to WinXP because of the convenience factors and some hardware driver issues that were resolved by running XP instead of linux.
Right now I don't care if the rumor is true or not. The fact the Microsoft won't deny it is actually very chilling. I don't want to run Vista.
I've been reading Mac sites since yesterday, blogs, forums, articles. I think they are resolving or have resolved the hardware issues with the new Intel Macs. A lot of people bitch about the cost but it looks like equivalently spec'd Dells and IBM/Lenovo systems can be nearly as much and in some cases more expensive. Another odd thing happened, in the Mac forums I noticed there's a lot of hardcore professional users and even a few unix geek sysadmin types to boot.
It seems that spending a few extra dollars for an Apple is the way to go, maybe not right this moment, but I'm thinking I can get a MacBook Pro, or wait for the Intel tower system. I should be able to get into the BSD under-pinnings and compile my own or opensource software if I need too. What it comes with out of the box sounds like is actually a few usable apps, vs the useless crap MS packages. I haven't switched yet but it looks like my next purchase will be a Mac, and I seriouslt doubt I'm going to have a reason to bother trying to dualboot it to XP.
In my case, I use my home machine(licenced, legit XP SP2) to provide production support, from home, for my employer; in addition to genrally working from home.
/.-ers do the same thing.
This is a common arraingement, and I'm sure that many
I refuse to install WGA on my machine; for privacy reasons..I don't trust it. It's MY machine and legally I'm not required to install this.
Now, what would happen if MS decided to disable my machine 'over the wire', and I had a critical production support issue to deal with, while away from the office? The longer it takes me..or someone from my team to get on the problem, the greater the financial impact to my firm. I have to wonder if either MS or my employer is prepared for this scenario.
wbs
(my verifiction word is 'baldness'..funny. Some of these are better than Craigslist)
Huh?