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School Software Licenses Under Review

Tony writes "ZDNet asks the question: 'Does Microsoft Campus give good value for money?' Its good to see a review of the dominant software, but the review is likely to lead to no or little changes, so the real question would be 'Is the review worth the money being spent on it?'."

157 comments

  1. As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by TehHustler · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...I can answer that question.

    No.

    Most of the Local Educational Authorities are in bed with Microsoft. Schools are free to do their own thing if they require, but doing so means you lose out on perks from the LEA such as other free software and support.

    It is much easier for them if all the schools are running the same kit and software because it means they can all support things much easier (think IT helpdesks who are knowledgable in JUST the disciplines they need) and it helps them secure bulk deals. And even then, the savings aren't that great.

    --

    TheHustler
    http://www.elmarko.org/ - Useless bilge
    http://www.asylum-games.co.uk/ - Co-Founder
    1. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by TubHarsh · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It is much easier for them if all the schools are running the same kit
      I would agree that it is much easier to support if all schools are running the same, but if they have to neglect other software concerns such as security, they should consider switching.

      In some colleges and universities in the US (which are also mostly in bed with Microsoft), IT managaers are switching pre installed web browsers on college ownewd computers to Firefox.

      In a few instances like Pennsylvania State Univ. telling Students to chuck IE, the school can even influence which software the students use.

      If the IT owners at these schools see a tangible benefit to switching from a Microsoft Product to a non-Microsoft Product they will do so.

    2. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by Vo0k · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      Iwould agree that it is much easier to support if all schools are running the same, but if they have to neglect other software concerns such as security, they should consider switching

      But by switching they neglect great deals like a free porche bundled with purchase of a million licenses.
      As long as OSS can't give out free porches as bonus to government-funded purchases, we're on a lost position.
      --
      Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
    3. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by Mad+Merlin · · Score: 3, Interesting
      But by switching they neglect great deals like a free porche bundled with purchase of a million licenses. As long as OSS can't give out free porches as bonus to government-funded purchases, we're on a lost position.

      So... take the money you didn't spend on a million software licenses, and buy a couple thousand Porches? I fail to see how buying proprietary software works out for the better here.

      Maybe if I sell you a copy of RHEL 4 for $200,000 and throw in a free Porche, would that make it better?

    4. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      It doesn't work that way.

      YOU get the free porsche, if you get YOUR EMPLOYER to buy software.

      But if YOUR EMPLOYER doesn't spend to money, you don't get the money for the porsche. You just get a pat on the head.

    5. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by jimicus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The way it works in a lot of public sector organisations (schools in particular) is the person who spends the money (and therefore decides what to spend it on) is quite often not the person who has to deal with any fall-out.

    6. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by vtcodger · · Score: 4, Insightful
      As a retired US school IT guy let me say that there are several issues here: One is operating system. Another is other products -- mostly office suite. A third is standardized reports.

      The OS is fairly clear cut. A school in the US simply has to be able to run MSDOS and Windows software. There are 20 years plus of legacy 'stuff' out there that are important to the school -- attendance, grades, stupid bureacratic reports, standardized test scoring, Mario Teaches Typing, etc. They often run only on MS operating systems (and it is often a struggle to get them to run there). There may come a time in the not too distant future when Macs and Linux will run this stuff routinely via emulation or WINE. Great -- but that's not today. In addition, in many countries a copy of Windows must purchased with the machine notwithstanding that is a clear violation of the most basic antitrust principles.

      Office Suite products are a different issue. Power Point a pretty good product. Schools need it or something like it. Count it as a plus for Microsoft. Word and Excel OTOH are far too damn complicated for most educational uses. (If you ask me, they are far too damn complicated for most non-educational uses also). Can I use them? Sure. Do I use them? Hardly ever. I Don't do chainsaws either for much the same reason. Should a school have a couple of copies of MSOFFICE or a decent clone around? Absolutely. Should every student and staff member have a copy? That's nuts -- but in more school districts than not, they probably do.

      A third issue is the unending reports demanded by the educational bureacracy. Attendance information. Number of reduced price lunches served -- by day. Number of playground swine and wild animal attacks broken down by grade. You name it, there's a report. Most of these come in the form of computer programs that attempt to make life easier for the reporter. Their distinguishing characteristics -- be they Excel Spreadsheets, Access, Web forms or whatever -- are that they all demand the latest technologies, they never (I repeat, never) actually work right without tweaking, and their support people are often quite clueless. For whatever reason, school IT people (who are pretty smart, but are often terrible at strategic decisionmaking) are unwilling to tackle this mess although it could probably be resolved without all that much difficulty. Until it is, schools need at least a few up to date Microsoft systems to accomodate the lunatics who think -- against all evidence to the contrary -- that Access or Excel -- are satisfactory tools for data collection.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    7. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by Herkum01 · · Score: 1

      The biggest thing Microsoft has done; lowered expectations of computers and software being considered reliable.

      The result, managers focusing on supporting software, rather than find software that will not break in the first place. That is the biggest hinderance to adaption of Linux and other Open Source programs...

    8. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Duh?

      As an IT manager in a UK PRIMARY SCHOOL??????????????

      Is this supposed to make you credible?

    9. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by John+Nowak · · Score: 1

      Free porches? Yes, that's just what my country home needed! With the money I was going to spend on all those porches, I can now buy myself a brand new Porsche!

    10. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by fbjon · · Score: 1

      My employer provides all employees with free Porches right outside every door.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    11. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by zaphod_es · · Score: 1

      I guess you are talking about Porsches and not about porches.

      Whatever it is, the only way a decision taker is going to get a backhander is from a dodgy dealer who has received a benefit. I suspect that your idea of charging $200,000 for RHEL 4 and a car or house extension is the only way these crooks are going to order free software.

    12. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by Bloater · · Score: 1

      > Maybe if I sell you a copy of RHEL 4 for $200,000 and throw in a free Porche, would that make it better?

      You missed the point... You sell a copy of RHEL 4 for $200,000 to the *government*, and give the free porsche to the purchasing manager that signed the purchase order.

    13. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      But by switching they neglect great deals like a free porche bundled with purchase of a million licenses.
      As long as OSS can't give out free porches as bonus to government-funded purchases, we're on a lost position.


      I'm assuming you have proof to back up this accusation.

    14. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 1

      As a currently active college instructor, I think Excel or (insert your favorite spreadsheet) is an excellent tool for education. Any discipline requiring data collection and massaging (such as chemistry or physics) will benefit from a spreadsheet. Initially I used one for recording/calculating grades. Now I use it for a variety of applications.

    15. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by Vo0k · · Score: 1

      It is being investigated. There was an article on this subject on Slashdot very recently.

      --
      Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
    16. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by TheMCP · · Score: 1

      As the former IT manager at a small university, I can say that we regarded the payment to Microsoft as blackmail money: we could pay up and use whatever MS software we wanted, or else they'd come in to "audit" our campus and shut us down for weeks while they hunt for what they want to call pirated software, probably forcing the university to close in the process. So we paid the money and it kept microsoft away, and that was all we could do because replacing and removing 100% of all microsoft software at an entire medical school was simply not possible.

    17. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Its a shame that I actually read that article and no where does it say that Porsches are being given out for those that chose MS for thier school.

    18. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by winnabago · · Score: 1
      The biggest thing Microsoft has done; lowered expectations of computers and software being considered reliable.


      The result, managers focusing on supporting software, rather than find software that will not break in the first place. That is the biggest hinderance to adaption of Linux and other Open Source programs...

      Keep computer saavy on the "fringe" and an entire market for support, geek squad, and "security" stays intact. The counter strategy is to empower users with controls, tweaking ability, and less preinstalled crap, but where is the profit in that?

      As long as OSS is considered for 'those hackers', its use in enterprise environments doesn't have a chance.

      --
      Dammit Otto, you have lupus.
    19. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Any discipline requiring data collection and massaging (such as chemistry or physics) will benefit from a spreadsheet."

      Only for trivial analysis, IMO. For anything important, I would demand a PC/workstation with error detection on all data busses (e.g., ECC RAM) and even the new ZFS from Sun is promising (checksums on data). Once a dataset gets to be above a comfortable threshold (perhaps a few hundred to a few thousand rows) it becomes necessary to resort to data files and programs or scripts to process the data. Also, has Microsoft certified that all their spreadsheet functions are fully tested to provide results consistent with the documentation?

      Of course, a high school student working on a chemistry lab experiement can do with the $299 Dell PC, but anyone who wants to preserve their reputation in the long term would invest in a decent workstation and analysis tools and learn how to use them.

      So, the question is, do school report crunchers care? What if an error causes 50 kids to get denied placements because their standardized test scores were misreported or misinterpreted? Would the error even be detected?

    20. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft rose to their great height on the backs of spineless sheep like you.

    21. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Same AC) I know that sounded a bit cruel (sorry about that), but please understand how frustrating it is to hear words like "not possible" in the context of switching from Microsoft.

      For example, you mentioned the school was for medicine. Does a doctor's ability to provide a medical diagnosis hinge on Microsoft software? Do patients need Microsoft software to receive the treatment? Do pharmacists need Microsoft software to provide the proper medications?

      It is absolute lunacy that a medical school would put themselves under the amount of influence by a _vendor_ that you alluded to, especially when that vendor is so tangential to the reason the school exists.

    22. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1
      In some colleges and universities in the US (which are also mostly in bed with Microsoft), IT managaers are switching pre installed web browsers on college ownewd computers to Firefox.

      When I worked for Yuba College in Marysville, CA (over a year ago) I led the charge to replace IE and OE with Firefox and Thunderbird, which is the standard now.

      I also used putty to implement encryption on a formerly-unsecured system (aside from plaintext password protection - the app is a screen scraper that used telnet) that was used to access and modify student records. That, thankfully, was a consulting gig, because I didn't make jack while working for 'em :)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    23. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by vtcodger · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Actually, I agree. ***BUT*** Elementary and Middle School students and staff don't need Excel. Virtually any spreadsheet that doesn't produce incorrect answers will satisfy 99.98% of their needs -- which are minimal because few people will actually use a spreadsheet to do even simple tasks ... even if they have been trained in how to use them. The School District CFO may need a copy of Excel as may the school clerks since there seems to be no way to keep people from trying to use Excel as a data collection tool. There may even be the odd teacher and student who can benefit from Excel. By all means give it to those who need it. But for the most part, any freeware spreadsheet will do everything that normal people need.

      BTW, are you aware that clipboard in Excel works differently than other Windows programs? That's because Microsoft ported Excel and its programmers from the Macintosh, and these folks (who for some unknowable reason are very proud of their user interface) never bothered to bring the clipboard into compliance with the IBM CUA conventions that are used in other Windows software. I expect that the reason that this has never become an issue is not that the Excel user interface is brilliantly designed. It's because very few people actually use the thing.

      In five years in a school, I only ever saw Excel actually used by the CFO; the school clerk (for some data collection efforts); in a short unit to teach grade 7-8 students what a spreadsheet is (It reduced students to tears, appallingly often); The staff in a (largely unsuccesful) attempt to automate supply purchasing (Excel really wasn't the right tool); and by the gym teacher who had kids enter their race times after they finished running. Only the first and last efforts really seemed viable. Oh yeah, and I used it occasionally to straighten out data bases and generate specialized reports because it may be a lousy data base manager, but it looks a lot better when your other alternative is Access.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    24. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by scuffell · · Score: 1

      For our school in the UK, it is great value for money, because we are Microsoft sponsored and so all the software is free. But this just makes the IT department try and use it. IMHO, it is a slightly pointless review because in most cases it is good value for money, and what it doesn't address is how useful this software is going to be for the children in later life. There are people coming out of schools who can only name one word processor - Word, and that's the only one they know how to use. How useful is this going to be? Not very, IMO.

    25. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by ACPosterChild · · Score: 1

      Yes, it would. Corporates could deal with that; it's just that you can't blatantly put a Porche directly on the records. Kickbacks are more acceptable that giving yourself a bonus.

    26. Re:As an IT manager in a UK primary school... by TehHustler · · Score: 1

      Sadly, rather than being taught "concepts" - kids are being taught how to regurgitate information in a parrot-like fashion. Dump them in front of another word processing package and they wouldn't know where to start.

      --

      TheHustler
      http://www.elmarko.org/ - Useless bilge
      http://www.asylum-games.co.uk/ - Co-Founder
  2. Don't usually complain but... by kisielk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Alright, I've been a Slashdot reader for many years now, and I've yet to ever complain about a story, even the blatant Slashvertisements. Usually I just ignore them. However, this story is probably the most useless thing I've seen posted here. I mean, honestly, the article has about 0 actual substance to it, all it says is that a review will be conducted. What is there to even discuss, as no facts are presented yet? Alright.. back to my hole...

    1. Re:Don't usually complain but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      You claim to be a Slashdot reader, but first you actually read the article, and then you can't think of anything to discuss on the subject of whether Microsoft software is worth the money?

      You're no Slashdotter. Get back to Technocrat and leave us to our childish flamewars.

    2. Re:Don't usually complain but... by honkycat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've got to agree with you on this one. The net content of this article was that somebody is going to do a study. Ok, great. It'll be news when the study is done and tells us something interesting. This story isn't even interesting for the debate it will spark on slashdot itself -- it's just begging for a flamewar. Can we mod the story down flamebait? (or off-topic, as we'll surely be modded...)

    3. Re:Don't usually complain but... by john83 · · Score: 1

      Tag it flamebait.

      --
      Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
  3. You Godless Commie Pinko Bastard! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Trying to deprive the children! They needClippy to show 'em what's good and right and true in this heathanistic world. I spit on you and your goat.

  4. So many ways to measure value by svunt · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Can you imagine a graphic design school that didn't own a Mac? As much as it displeases me, schools aren't really in the same position as businesses & individuals when it comes time to evaluate software choices. The reality is that Windows is 'industry standard', as is Office, for the bulk of jobs that students will end up wotrking at. Most students with their own computers also run Windows/Office, and need some interoperability. It's not really as simple as measuring costs, support, productivity. Which sucks.

    1. Re:So many ways to measure value by RJabelman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The reality is that Windows is 'industry standard', as is Office, for the bulk of jobs that students will end up wotrking at

      This has nothing to do with anything. If you used a computer in school, how similar was it to the one you use for your job today? When I was at school we used Acorn Archimedes....

    2. Re:So many ways to measure value by pimpimpim · · Score: 1

      Yes indeed, they can evaluate it, but then? Will they change? Will Microsoft change their products just because of this review? Probably the only effect of an overall bad review would be that Microsoft will change their pricing, which they might do as they have nothing to loose. Since schools probably will welcome price lowerings more than, for example, the investment needed to change to open source products just for the idea of it, there is no real alternative.

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
    3. Re:So many ways to measure value by BenjyD · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Archimedes! We considered ourselves lucky if we got to use the BBC Master. I think UK state schools were the only people to ever use the Archimedes.

    4. Re:So many ways to measure value by bky1701 · · Score: 1
      Can you imagine a graphic design school that didn't own a Mac?
      *Imagines* Huh?
    5. Re:So many ways to measure value by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      If Becta stop recommending it the schools stop using it.

      Schools universally use the software/hardware that is recommended - and *only* the software/hardware that is recommended.

      This is why Research Machines still exist, and schools pay 2/3 times the price for them rather than get a dell.

    6. Re:So many ways to measure value by jimicus · · Score: 1

      There's a good reason for that. I used to work in a school, and I found that most staff were somewhat - how can I put this? - naive in terms of "how you go about buying stuff", scared of making mistakes and only too happy to have someone offer to hold their hands, regardless of whether the person offering to hold their hands had a vested interest in selling a particular product.

      I developed a theory - that there are two ways to run a lucrative business. The first is to produce a product which is in some way better/cheaper than the competition, devote a lot of time to customer service, and basically out-compete everyone else in your field.

      The second is to order a print run of 10,000 leaflets saying "We are specialists in the education market" and carpet-bomb every school in the area with them. The depressing thing is, I think this would actually work.

    7. Re:So many ways to measure value by Mike+Quin · · Score: 1

      They were great machines for a school environment. My old school had two labs of them maintained by the head of department (as they were virtually zero-maintainence and almost impossible to break). When I visited him a couple of years after leaving schoolthey'd switched over to PCs and had to hire a full-time technician to keep on top of all the problems.

    8. Re:So many ways to measure value by hey! · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As much as it displeases me, schools aren't really in the same position as businesses & individuals when it comes time to evaluate software choices.

      If so, they are grossly misrepresenting and overcharging for what they do.

      Colleges and Universities represent themselves as more than trade schools. Trade schools have a narrower focus on imparting specific technical skills. Colleges granting baccalaureate degree are supposedly giving a broader education in higher intellectual skills. If I get a certificate from a non-accredited trade school, I don't expect that certificate to carry any weight ten years from now. If I get a degree in, say, Computer Science, I expect that degree and the skills I learned there to last all my life. Therefore, colleges charge a heck of a lot more.

      If what they are teaching you is to use some office package, and if those skills aren't useful if you get a job at a place using a different operating system or office package, you're getting fleeced. A university education is supposed to be a lifetime investment. It is certain that the operating systems and office packages you will be using ten or twenty years in the future will be radically different than what is available today.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    9. Re:So many ways to measure value by releppes · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree. The excuse of training individuals on a platform said to be an industry standard is weak. Microsoft has changed their own products so much in the past 5 years alone. Most training on said platform would most likely be obsolete by the time they graduate anyway. Unfortunately, that's the problem with most IT training. Schools should stick to the basics. Teach students how to use a mouse or pointing device. Educate them on what an operating system is. Show them some basic applications. Show them which applications are used for which jobs. I don't want to see any more stupid databases created in Excell. Show them what a spreadsheet is REALLY used for. Database design should be concidered a basic skill. None of the above is Microsoft specific, but if a student had a solid understanding of what an operating system is and how to use most common applications, I'm sure they would be just as proficient as any seasoned Microsoft user.

    10. Re:So many ways to measure value by bluebox_rob · · Score: 1

      BBC Master - luxury! Our school was so poor that the computers were made by the woodwork teacher, and he could only afford to put 2 keys on 'em - a '1' and a '0'.

    11. Re:So many ways to measure value by Comboman · · Score: 1
      If you used a computer in school, how similar was it to the one you use for your job today? When I was at school we used Acorn Archimedes....

      When I was at school we had Commodore PETs. I can't really say that I've utilized my skills at Artillery and Time Trek in my current job. If only the PET had a solitare game, that would have prepared me for working with Windows PCs.

      --
      Support Right To Repair Legislation.
    12. Re:So many ways to measure value by mrxak · · Score: 1
      If I get a degree in, say, Computer Science, I expect that degree and the skills I learned there to last all my life.
      Yeah, until your job gets moved to India and you end up working as a traveling insurance salesman.
    13. Re:So many ways to measure value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My family was so poor, we could only get 0's from the welfare office. I would have killed for a 1!

    14. Re:So many ways to measure value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reality is that Windows is 'industry standard', as is Office, for the bulk of jobs that students will end up wotrking at.

      The questions then becomes whether you're going to school just for job training, or whether you want an education. Ideally (and naively) after you graduate, you should be able to use the skills you learned at school to pick up new things. Office may be the "standard", but if you know how to write properly, it shouldn't matter whether you're using Word, WordPerfect, or a Moleskin.

      Of course some people simply go to school to get the piece of paper, and don't care much about anything else. It's simply a hoop that they must jump through to start making money. To each his own.

    15. Re:So many ways to measure value by BandoMcHando · · Score: 1

      Not entirely true... Our school (not a state school) had a mixed econet network of BBC model B, BBC Master, Acorn Archimedes and Risc PCs, all running off two central unix servers, covering an area of about 1-2 square miles. The head of the computer dept always said it was the largest econet network still in use at the time, but I was never quite sure if I believed him or not, although it was quite possible, as we seemed to be buying up other schools old BBC's for our own use. (This was around 1990-1995-ish). The network was used for anything/everything from word processing, spreadsheets etc to electronic noticeboards. Everyone was on an internal email system, based on a unix text email client, and written internally by a student iirc.

      And I still rather like the Achimedes and it's successor, the Risc PC... and have yet to find a word processor I like as much as the one we used back then, "Impression".

    16. Re:So many ways to measure value by 0racle · · Score: 1
      The excuse of training individuals on a platform said to be an industry standard is weak
      Not really, especially when you read the whole comment, that schools don't have the resources to go out and test every possible alternative. The 'industry standard' becomes the default choice.

      Schools should stick to the basics. Teach students how to use a mouse or pointing device. Educate them on what an operating system is. Show them some basic applications. Show them which applications are used for which jobs
      All of that can be done on any OS, so its not really an argument against choosing any platform is it.
      --
      "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    17. Re:So many ways to measure value by pimpimpim · · Score: 1
      Never heard of them but, they seem not overly expensive, especially knowing there are people out there willing to ask more than twice the market price for something just having the stamp 'education quality' on it. And, apparently, they have buttons that can stand 11 kg of pressure, that's pretty cool, knowing how most people/kids deal with PCs. Similarly, they offer hard screen monitors that don't break that easily if you press the screen with your finger, which many people actually do (not only kids). So I guess they more or less offer stuff tuned to the demand of schools (don't know about software though).

      The best thing would probably be thin clients, that actually have almost nothing that can break, but I guess schools are not ready for that as it would require someone capable enough to maintain a central server. (not being impolite here, just realistic).

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
    18. Re:So many ways to measure value by pimpimpim · · Score: 1
      The second is to order a print run of 10,000 leaflets saying "We are specialists in the education market" and carpet-bomb every school in the area with them. The depressing thing is, I think this would actually work.

      Hey, don't steal ideas from the marketing department of Apple in the 80's, they might still have a patent on it :)

      Nostalgia/Disclaimer: My parents were teachers, as a 10 year old I had access to the cool Apples with 20 MB external harddisks etc. etc. I still remember the fun I had with hypercard, making short animations and small games. I never knew were the program actually was for (and in retrospect it was probably not very good in that), but it must have been a pretty well-done program if it was so easy to create pleasing things in it. Now I think of it, I actually programmed with it, without even realizing! Try that with powerpoint or flash...

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
    19. Re:So many ways to measure value by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Hey, don't steal ideas from the marketing department of Apple in the 80's, they might still have a patent on it :)

      Hate to tell you this, but if they do have a patent on it there are literally dozens of companies in breach. Ironically, it's harder to get state schools to part with the cash - not because they've got less cash (though that is a factor), but because a lot of their decisions are made at the education authority level.

    20. Re:So many ways to measure value by budgenator · · Score: 1

      The first spreadsheet I used was on a ROM that plugged into the side of my Radio Shack Color Computer and it did 90% of the things that are actually used on most real world spreadsheets. Any College trained graduate that can't jump from one vendor's software to another in the same class with little difficult, should ask his college for his tutuion back. College training implies understanding in underlying principals; not just memorizing click sequences.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    21. Re:So many ways to measure value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me guess, you didn't finish school in '06?

      This is a serious point. We teach students to use Microsoft products because that's what most of them are going to experience either in college or in the real world when they graduate. Can you honestly say we shouldn't have them using windows/office because 10 years down the line Microsoft may go under and be replaced by XYZsoft?

      There are reasons to go with alternatives to MS in education, but this is not one of them.

    22. Re:So many ways to measure value by RJabelman · · Score: 1

      My point wasn't meant to say that using MS in schools is a bad idea. What it was meant to point out is that requiring MS on the grounds that children will be using their software later in life is a bad idea.

    23. Re:So many ways to measure value by daveb · · Score: 1

      >The excuse of training individuals on a platform said to be an industry standard is weak. Tell that to the employer that says in their job ad's that candidates must be familiar with MS Office (for admin jobs). Tell that to the high-school leaver who is applying for those jobs. *MOST* people do not graduate from uni with CS degrees.

  5. what else are they going to teach kids on? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    open source? Ha! It's used by .1% of non-geek office workers....

  6. CS by FullMetalAlchemist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't know, but the university I went to was excellent when it came to pure computer science; it was a UltraSPARC/Solaris only when I started there in the 90's. Those of us who actually passed all the courses where Amiga or BSD users, who loved the Solaris environment and its technical benefits.

    But the fact is, when I entered the consulting biz I had very little use for CS. Everything is done half-assed, if at all, and real science was nowhere to be found.

    Now, I just switched job and have gone the Microsoft route, and stangely, the quality of work is much better. Simply because you can still to things "quick and dirty" and manage to produce some quite acceptable results.

    Thus, if your goal is science (a PhD or similar) a Solaris/UNIX shop is the way to go, especially today with OpenSolaris. But if you're going to work in tha' biz, Microsoft is where it's at.

    I still miss the good old days, but clients wont pay for quality unless its billions in cash at stake or a great possibility that people can die if something goes wrong (which is essentially the same thing to an enterprise).

    I still run BSD at home, but I'm glad I can work with MS software as it stands.

    1. Re:CS by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      Don't you think that, if only Amiga and BSD users passed all the course, it was actually a pretty bad university?

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    2. Re:CS by jimicus · · Score: 1

      I still run BSD at home, but I'm glad I can work with MS software as it stands.

      You should count yourself lucky. Some of us still have nightmares of the Win9x days, despite them being long gone.

    3. Re:CS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can bet that it was a generalization, but that's what I also have experienced at three different universities.

      It's quite simple actually, those who are Amiga and UNIX developers are often into the technical details, while Windows users rearly grasps what they are about to study is all about. I distincly remember the complaints that: "What? What the hell is this?". They simply wanted to toy with MS Word (which is an superb program btw) and things like that. Most of these people then switched to studying systematics, and faired quite well.

      I guess, those who already are lowlevel programmers knows most of the core CS already.

    4. Re:CS by kabz · · Score: 1

      Yeah, supporting an Oracle database on Windows 98 was particulary *fun*.

      If anything in the world was like an elephant riding a bicycle, that was it.

      Nowadays I'm lucky enough never to have to look at the boxes my software runs on. Woot! ;-)

      --
      -- "It's not stalking if you're married!" My Wife.
  7. Mein Gott by The+Bungi · · Score: 5, Funny
    What a stunning, in-depth analysis of this ever-delicate issue. I'm back from reading the first two chapters, which seemed to go on and on, yet nonetheless were completely absorbing. Tomorrow I shall read the other nine, with a good cup of joe and some trail mix to keep me in top form. This is certainly one where we'll be calling "RTFA" for days to come!

    Certainly my heartfelt gratitude go out to the Slashdot crew - especially ScuttleMonkey, bless his heart - for linking to such an enthralling tome of uncompromising educational policy.

    1. Re:Mein Gott by A+Dafa+Disciple · · Score: 1

      That was hillarious, thanks. A good way to start off my morning.

      Apparently they've been planning on this for some time now. Check out the prequel to this story from last January. It's about as equally informative as the "update."

  8. Deceptive advertising by pubjames · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One thing that annoys me about this subject is the deliberately misleading Microsoft advertisements aimed at parents. The ones that imply, for instance, that Microsoft software helps children become creative musicians, when Microsoft doesn't have any music creation applications.

    I find it really outrageous that (in the UK at least) a big chunk of many schools IT budget goes towards Windows and Office, which are completely rubbish peices of software for educating young children. But the administrators don't understand much about computers, and the nice man from Microsoft is always taking them out to lunch, being helpful and giving them "special deals" which just happen to take up most of the IT budget...

    1. Re:Deceptive advertising by pimpimpim · · Score: 4, Funny
      The ones that imply, for instance, that Microsoft software helps children become creative musicians, when Microsoft doesn't have any music creation applications.

      I beg to differ.

      P.S. Some explanation on how that was made can be found here.

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
    2. Re:Deceptive advertising by lukas84 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      See, the problem is much more complicated than that.

      (Disclaimer: This is the situation in switzerland)

      Schools can't afford to hire qualified personal. A qualified System Administrator costs something from 6-10k per Month (x13). This is A LOT of money for a school.

      Also, professional IT doesn't come cheap, and you usually have several software requirements. It's next to impossible for a "normal" School to get professionally supported (NBD Replacement for 3-5 years, Beige Boxes are NOT ACCEPTABLE) Machines without Windows licenses, so it would be a waste not to use them.

      OTOH, microsoft offers significant discount for its software to schools. So it might be a lot cheaper to use a microsoft environment, because microsoft environments don't have compatibility problems which might necessitate the use of vmware, or sometimes even a windows terminal server.

      Don't forget that a school usually consists of TWO different infrastructures. A smaller one for all the internal administration stuff, which most of the times REQUIRES windows, because of the ERP or Archival Software used, and a learning network. The latter COULD be setup using linux, but it would require additional infrastructure, which would in turn cost more money.

      This is also the reason why most schools don't have a professional it at all. Setting up a windows environment is usually less complicated, but still, qualified windows personal is still rare and expensive.

    3. Re:Deceptive advertising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But many UNIXES don't *need* a sysadmin full time. Windows does. You need to keep on top of patches, virus signatures, firewall and upgrades. Because MS and PC are everywhere, you have to worry about kids installing crud you don't want: where will they get a Linux app? Solaris? HPUX? Setup of Windows may be less complicated (I would argue otherwise), but it is definitely more work on an ongoing basis.

      If they go FOSS, they don't need to check license compliance. They don't need to work out the correct license and purchase options.

      A linux admin wouldn't be needed most of the time, so your monthly figure would be shared amongst half a dozen schools, instead of just the one.

      And if they don't have a sysadmin for MS, why must they have one for other systems?

    4. Re:Deceptive advertising by rolfwind · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's especially outrageous for Office, as that is an application that can be completely replaced by OpenOffice.

      The usual arguments against OpenOffice don't work in a school. It isn't a business and doesn't have to work 100% with MS Office, because schools are usually self-contained. Documents are internal and they don't have a ton of "clients" and what not where they would have to import documents in or out all day.

      And if you start using OO, you might as well use Linux/BSD/Other free OS.

      There may be a few objections:

      1. Educational software isn't written for linux. Too true, but most educational software I have seen is crap anyway, seemingly bought just to have it rather than providing any tangible benefit to the students. Usually the areas are covered by good web applications anyway in the meantime so there are alternatives.

      2. Teacher tools. True, I have seen some teacher tools in Windows but they have web application equivalents as well. The thing that can go wrong here is if the web apps use Windows, but as in many things, there are choices.

    5. Re:Deceptive advertising by joe+155 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have to agree with you; I'm at uni at the mo so I've been in education for about the last 15 years, and with the exception of a crazily old BBC computer or whatever it was I've never seen anything but windows. When your younger I guess you don't tend to notice it as much but I really wish they'd at least given us some ability to use other systems. At uni I recently started a flame war(unintentionally) through my blog because I dared to suggest that our uni might use OO and Linux and other free software. Tellingly I got one reply (from a woman) who said that females don't know how to use computers as well as men so its unreasonable to expect them to learn... which is bullshit, but it gives you some idea of what your up against.

      These are views which I saw replicated over and over, "it's too hard to learn" "I don't want to learn" "OMG!!!1 MS is teh best!!111!!!". In order to make any change you have to first get to these people, a ground up change.

      --
      *''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
    6. Re:Deceptive advertising by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      > But many UNIXES don't *need* a sysadmin full time. Windows does.

      Wrong. You can run both windows and Unixes unmaintened, but problems will arise. A bit later with unixes perhaps, but security updates are needed no matter what os you're running. They can be automated, but i prefer to approve patches (which is easy using WSUS, not-so-easy on most linux distributions i know).

      > you have to worry about kids installing crud you don't want

      They can't install jack shit if the admin is doing his job right.

      > If they go FOSS, they don't need to check license compliance. They don't need to work out the correct license and purchase options.

      This hassle is usually handled by your reseller ;)

      > A linux admin wouldn't be needed most of the time, so your monthly figure would be shared amongst half a dozen schools, instead of just the one.

      I doubt that. Having a competent person on-site all the time is different than having one available on certain times. It is easier to talk about problems, and it is also easier for the admin to know what happens around him. This admin could also handle some advanced (faculatative) it courses, which would help interested kids to get to know their computer better.

      I work in it service, and we service one or two schools. The main problems are:

      * You cost by the hour:
      You only get called if the house is already burning
      Lot's of problems don't get mentioned, because people think they're not worth the money the need to spend fixing it

      * You are in much less influencial position than someone internal
      If a customers NEEDS better/more equipment, as an outside service person it looks like you want to sell something

      > And if they don't have a sysadmin for MS, why must they have one for other systems?

      Not having a sysadmin is bad practice. It works with ms, it works with linux, but it's a stupid idea. A better model would be to use an ASP, which you can access from thin clients. That might be cheaper in the short run.

    7. Re:Deceptive advertising by artifex2004 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The usual arguments against OpenOffice don't work in a school. It isn't a business and doesn't have to work 100% with MS Office, because schools are usually self-contained. Documents are internal and they don't have a ton of "clients" and what not where they would have to import documents in or out all day.


      And is the interface the same, so that when kids graduate and go to office jobs, they will know how to use the office suite which is most likely to be installed on their work machines? If not, then it's as if they used Wordperfect Office or some other proprietary package with minority share: good to learn general skills, perhaps, but they can't hit the ground running. Which means the business either has to train them at least a little, which costs money and time, or just hire the graduates who used their parents' copies.
    8. Re:Deceptive advertising by A+Dafa+Disciple · · Score: 3, Funny

      Man, that flash video tickles me pink. It reminds me of the time when my family's computer (a Packard Bell 386) had a "talking calculator" application. I found the .WAV files for the numbers it spoke and then I used Sound Recorder to cut off the consonant and vowel sounds and saved them to their own separate .WAV files. I then used those to make my own words. Being the juvenile I was, probably around age 10 or 12 at the time, you bet that the first words I made were, of course, curse words.

      You can imagine how overjoyed my father was to turn on the computer and also hear that, rather than the computer greeting him with the usual Windows chime, it was cursing at him.

    9. Re:Deceptive advertising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget that if you are the parent of a child of school age you can get M$ Office software with a considerable off the standard price! (It may be crippled in some way, but I don't think so) i.e. a £140 (approx) copy of M$ Office can be obtained for around £50.00. Now if it can be sold for £50 'cos I have a kid, why the difference in price if I don't? It's obviously a case of getting 'em when they're young style marketing. but it raises the question of the true cost of M$ s/w products and discriminatory sales practices, which I suggest need to be investigated.

    10. Re:Deceptive advertising by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      That's a silly argument.

      For a start schools don't teach children how to use office packages (not in the UK at least). You go to night school as an adult for that.

      Secondly those schools are on a budget and do *not* upgrade unless they absolutely have too.. I've never seen a school with anything newer than office 97.

      Thirdly when these children start work the interface will have changed so much it won't be relevant anyway (have you taken a look at the clusterfuck that is the new office application? Try using that with only knowledge of office 97).

    11. Re:Deceptive advertising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the US, they change the rules so that anyone off the street can purchase the student edition of MS Office for $100.

    12. Re:Deceptive advertising by pubjames · · Score: 1

      OTOH, microsoft offers significant discount for its software to schools.

      What is the point if the software is no good for education?!!

    13. Re:Deceptive advertising by kjart · · Score: 0

      I find it really outrageous that (in the UK at least) a big chunk of many schools IT budget goes towards Windows and Office, which are completely rubbish peices of software for educating young children. But the administrators don't understand much about computers, and the nice man from Microsoft is always taking them out to lunch, being helpful and giving them "special deals" which just happen to take up most of the IT budget...

      As opposed to what (seriously)? Is linux/osx/etc somehow better at educating young children? What am I missing here - I dont think the operating system has much to do with education aside from learning how to use the operating system and/or associated apps. If that's what you're referring to, then there is easily an advantage in teaching people about the most prevalent software that they will likely deal with in the future (near term at least).

      I'd agree that Microsoft advertising is typically somewhat misleading - but what advertisment isn't? Companies want to put the best spin on their products. Microsoft bashing aside, I don't see how that's +5 insightful.

    14. Re:Deceptive advertising by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      When I was at school, we were taught using MS Works, and MS Word 2.0. By the time I left school, Office 97 was starting to be replaced by Office 2000. By the time I finished university, Office 2003 was current.

      If you look at the difference between the Word 2.0 and Works interfaces, and the Office 2003 interface, you will see that there is about as much similarity between them as there is between OpenOffice.org and Office 2003.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    15. Re:Deceptive advertising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have a look at the edutainment suites of kde and gnome. Just as good as any commercial education programs I've seen.

      Theres also edubuntu, a specialized educational distro built off ubuntu.

    16. Re:Deceptive advertising by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      And that sums up the Number 1 problem of all time with computers. People don't want to learn. X that. People refuse to learn. It's like as soon as you say "computer" their brain turns off. Some people may say I'm a bit biased, because I'm a big computer geek. But that's not what it is. I've seen many people who aren't big geeks be able to use simple programs like Word, or even Excel. It's a little disappointing to see this kind of attitude of not wanting to learn new things when you're at a universite. You're supposed to learn new stuff at university. Learn everything you can. Sure, you're an arts major, but that doesn't mean that you can't learn how to use a computer. If you're willing to give even just a little bit of effort then you can learn. But alas, people don't want to learn. Learning is hard.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    17. Re:Deceptive advertising by Arivia · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My school board did that: http://slashdot.org/articles/04/06/08/0328257.shtm l?tid=102&tid=146&tid=185&tid=187&tid=99

      They licensed it in 2004, and it made it into the 2005 updates to school IT infrastructure.

      You know how many times I've seen it used?

      Once.

      You know why?

      Because as a TA for a Writer's Craft class, the final assignment I created necessitated using the PDF export features that StarOffice had and MS Word did not.

      I spent at least six hours that semester helping students fix formatting problems that had occured in the transition using nothing more complex than page breaks.

      Mind share does not correlate to market share; in this case, despite the installed alternative, the students stuck to what they knew best, which is Microsoft Office.

      --
      The role of the writer is not to say what we can all say, but what we are unable to say. -Anais Nin
    18. Re:Deceptive advertising by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      Could you be more specific?

    19. Re:Deceptive advertising by Macthorpe · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's not there to educate people, it's there as an assistant to educators (word processing, slideshows, etc.)

      Surprisingly enough, most people are aware that Microsoft Office can't educate kids on it's own, just like guns can't kill people unless someone pulls the trigger.

      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
    20. Re:Deceptive advertising by BenjyD · · Score: 1

      I don't see many non-techies who actually knows how to use MS Office, though. Most people I see stumble through with a knowledge of a few commands and lots of hunting around. Ideas like styles or even page breaks seem to be beyond them. That's people whose job description requires a knowledge of Office.

      Are people like that really going to be any less productive if they're used to OpenOffice/Wordperfect?

    21. Re:Deceptive advertising by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      I agree that schools need to teach how to use MS Office, but here in Aussie, there are 12 years of school, with most either leaving after 10 or going all the way to 12. Since schools often use out of date software anyway, why not use openoffice.org to the end of year 8. 2-4 years of MS should be more than enough time to learn, and the resulting savings could be used to ensure always up to date copies of MS software where it is needed.

    22. Re:Deceptive advertising by malkavian · · Score: 1

      The idea of teaching kids, is to teach them to learn.
      Telling them point blank that the only thing that should be used is Microsoft because anything else won't let them have a job is a MS marketing dream! Also known as brainwashing, indoctrination, whatever else you want to call it.
      Anyone familiar with an office suite will take approximately a day or two to familiarise themself with a new one. At most a week (unless they're a programmer, using the finer details of macro languages).

      Schools are NOT there to teach Microsoft, Microsoft, Microsoft. They should be teaching the principles of how things work, and how to work concept into execution.
      Plus, you tell an employer you can use MS Office, PLUS a whole host of other office applications, and you'll stand head and shoulders above someone who is MS only (your CV will have so much more on it).

    23. Re:Deceptive advertising by someone300 · · Score: 1

      Actually, there will be less interop problems with OpenOffice. Being in school currently, I know that everyone either runs an illegal copy of Office or OpenOffice. Nobody our age can afford Microsoft Office even with their student discounts (well... I guess we could but there are more important things that require our money, like the computer itself).

      Having the internal stuff all using OpenOffice will satisfy everyone. Runs on most OSes that anyone uses (and if not they're free to port it), it's free and will run alongside Office anyway, and any other problems can be solved usually by creating a PDF. The only problem I can see is those stupid teacher support documents they get from exam boards and such which seem to be word processor documents created in Microsoft Publisher (which nobody I know even has at home anyway).

    24. Re:Deceptive advertising by cduffy · · Score: 1

      They're all close enough that any young individual[1] who has used OpenOffice enough to be familiar with it should be more than able to pick up any other halfway-modern office suite without even trying. It's only people who are old enough to not have the innate UI sense (which anyone growing up in a 1st-world country in the last decade or so picked up} learning the exact application matters to -- and they're not going through school anymore, they're just teaching it. Further, there are night classes at community colleges and such for that sort of person.

      [1] - Whether I fit into this category is starting to be up for debate. I got my geek on early in life, though.

    25. Re:Deceptive advertising by mrxak · · Score: 1
      A qualified System Administrator costs something from 6-10k per Month (x13).
      They have 13 months in Switzerland??
    26. Re:Deceptive advertising by mrxak · · Score: 1
      1. Educational software isn't written for linux. Too true, but most educational software I have seen is crap anyway, seemingly bought just to have it rather than providing any tangible benefit to the students. Usually the areas are covered by good web applications anyway in the meantime so there are alternatives.
      I have to agree. The best educational software we used in middle school and high school were Java programs running in a web browser. Many were even developed by teachers in the school. Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but we had mac labs as well as windows labs, and there were mac educational programs used just as often as windows programs.
    27. Re:Deceptive advertising by mrxak · · Score: 1

      Learning is easy, it's just that people have been taught that learning is hard from an early age. It might be tempting to point to some of the less well-designed operating systems out there as a cause, but I think it's widespread outside of computing and technology as well.

    28. Re:Deceptive advertising by BenjyD · · Score: 1

      British schools very rarely use any Apple computers: they used to be entirely Acorn/BBC, but I think when those went obsolete they switched to Wintel completely.

    29. Re:Deceptive advertising by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      And is the interface the same, so that when kids graduate and go to office jobs, they will know how to use the office suite which is most likely to be installed on their work machines? If not, then it's as if they used Wordperfect Office or some other proprietary package with minority share

      Have you ever used one of these "proprietary packages" (by which you seem to mean non-Microsoft, though there is hardly anything more proprietary than MSOffice)? They all look and feel exactly the same, down to the key shortcuts. You have to be doing something pretty esoteric before you'll notice a difference. When MSWord camne out it had (and probably still does have) "help for WordPerfect" and support for WordPerfect keystrokes; as Excel did for Lotus 123. Now MS is the top dog, so everyone else is mimicking them.

      Anyway, very few people working in offices know how to use anything more than what they can point and click at on the formatting bar. The only real "computing" skill I'd advocate schools teach is touch-typing, which of course is almost platform agnostic. Everything else you can pick up in literally 10 minutes.

    30. Re:Deceptive advertising by mrxak · · Score: 1

      Well here in the States, we had computers of all sorts. In early elementary school we used DOS, and then switched to Mac for a while. Then in Middle School it was fairly even between Windows and Mac. In High School it was mostly Windows, but had a lab full of eMacs that science classes tended to use.

    31. Re:Deceptive advertising by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      In switzerland, you get paid by the month.

      When discussing salaries, you usually mention the weeks of holidays you have (a week is 5 days), the amount you get per month, and the number of times you get paid per year.

      In low wage jobs, you get paid 12 times a year.

      In medium wage jobs, you get paid 13 times a year (the 13th payment is usually in the middle of december, before christmas).

      In high wage jobs, there's everything from 13 times to 16 times a year.

    32. Re:Deceptive advertising by jalefkowit · · Score: 1

      You know, I used to hear this argument when I was in high school (1992 or so), only then it was about WordPerfect. I should learn WordPerfect, there was a huge market for people with WordPerfect skills, knowing all WordPerfect's arcane keystrokes was the road to a good career. The smart school was the one that focused on teaching WordPerfect, not general computer-literacy.

      Do you know anyone today who knows WordPerfect? Do you know any business today that uses WordPerfect? If I had bought that line of bull, would I be more employable today because of my l33t WordPerfect skills?

      In a world where the dominant application platform changes every few years, training kids in application-specific ways is a Bad Thing, regardless of what the application flavor of the moment is.

    33. Re:Deceptive advertising by jambarama · · Score: 1

      That argument may work in public high schools, it probably works in trade schools, but it does not work in Universities. Universities are trying to give a deep, not a vocational, education. It is debatable what high schools are trying to do. Tech trade schools might hurt their students by using non-standard tools, assusming the students aren't given enough tools/abilities to learn new software quickly.

      I TA a computer lab at the university I am at. When people come in and want to learn about the tools they are going to use, I don't refer them directly to Final Cut. Any idiot can learn final cut on their own by playing around, or reading a book. The same goes for about any other program. Learn the basics - framerates, compression formats, broadcast formats, and whatnot - don't learn how to point an click. Because when the next great thing comes along, anyone who knows just programs is screwed, anyone who knows what the program is doing behind the scenese will be just fine. The general skillls are the most important.

    34. Re:Deceptive advertising by Drogo007 · · Score: 1

      "And if you start using OO, you might as well use Linux/BSD/Other free OS."

      Except in these cases, the schools don't have the IT Budget to retrain all the Teachers and Administrative personnel to use Linux. Let's face it, Linux isn't going to work gracefully on the mish-mash of computers the average school computer lab has (at least in my experience).

      OOo has come a long way, and I no longer have any reservations about recommending it to people who come to me asking what the best way to "get office" is.

      Linux itself, on the other hand...

    35. Re:Deceptive advertising by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Are people like that really going to be any less productive if they're used to OpenOffice/Wordperfect?
      if they were trained with another app from the start probabblly not, nor if you spend money to retrain them. However throw them at a new app without retraining and they may not be able to find anything.

      and thats before you consider compatibility issues (yes theese happen between office versions too and its a pita there too), the last thing someone who doesn't really understand document structure is going to wan't is to have to do all that formatting again when they take the document to another machine.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    36. Re:Deceptive advertising by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Let's see, 52 weeks in a year, 4 weeks in a month, 52/4 = 13 months! where'd you take math?
      The other way, 12 calender months, plus 2 weeks vacation + 5 days sick + 5 paid holidays + a couple personal days = 13 months.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    37. Re:Deceptive advertising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who are you kidding? Schools communicate with the rest of the world just like any organization. Parents, board members, other schools.. not to mention vendors and other support entities like consultants and auditors. OO is good, but it's not 100%, and probably will never be. Now is it worth the cost of licensing for that last few points of compatibility? Maybe, maybe not, but the answer is no different just because you're talking about a school as opposed to some other entity.

      1. most educational software is crap. Unfortunately, while it's technically crap, it does do it's job of filling in a specific part of the overall curriculum (which is why somebody bought it). Now, some software is just crap all around, you know the cute little 'game' apps you find in virtually any elementary school computer lab, but there is a lot of serious education software out there that may suck to implement and support, but does help with education, and guess what, it runs on windows. The real issue with trying to circumvent that is, the software sucks to begin with, if you start trying to emulate it or whatever to try and get it to run in a non-windows environment, you are going to get burned. I guarantee the software support techs who can barely support their junk software on windows where it's supposed to work will be totally useless, so you'd better have a linux genius on staff who can work fast to get something in on a short timeline (since administrators always want this stuff up and functional the same day everything arrives on site because the sales guy said that's how easy it would be). No offense, but somebody qualified to do that probably wouldn't stick around for what public schools are able to pay.

      2. Teacher tools as you put it actually get pretty in depth. There's training software, student information software (attendance, grades, contact/medical/discipline/etc.), curriculum mapping software, the list goes on. All this stuff is put together much the same way 'educational' software is, by small companies that are nearly clueless but put out niche software that has trivial competition since most of it is state specific and the only competitors are just as bad, since none of them can make much money selling software to schools with limited budgets. So you have the same problem again, everything wants to run on windows because like it or not, windows is easier to develop and run dirty little apps like these on. Of course you could look at the functionality and build all this stuff in house, but what school has that kind of programming staff? And before you say schools should just team up into some kind of consortium and share the expense, been there done that, massive nightmare.

    38. Re:Deceptive advertising by budgenator · · Score: 1

      What happens when the consulting company hired to competency test all of your county's MS Office users, tests them on Macs and Framemaker software? The union started screaming bloody-murder, the the firm held their ground and showed statistically that it was not only valid to test the workers on Macs with Framemaker, but the results more accurately reflected real-world performance than testing them on PC's with MS Office would.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    39. Re:Deceptive advertising by JasonBee · · Score: 1

      he said: you have to worry about kids installing crud you don't want

      you said: They can't install jack shit if the admin is doing his job right.

      Well you just haven't been doing any work as a windows syadmin lately have you? I work as a DAS coordinator in a large governmental organization that maintains over 18000 windows PCs. My division's chunk is about 1400 machines and my area supports about 350 of those directly.

      I can gauran-friggen-tee you that with a good working corporate firewall in place, full Group Policy implementation, and NO user rights beyond %userprofile% and %programfiles% (yeah flame us for that one...too many old crappy apps that need r/w), we STILL can get spyware and malware installations, and users can install apps EVEN if the _can't_ write to %programfiles%.

      The issues we see are usually with garbage installs done via drive-by downloads on the web. It's down to a trickle now, almost completely stopped due to diligence by our platform support teams on firewall, proxy and gateway filter duty.

      Even when we've done our job right, it's still relatively easy to bork a PC box, even if it's just for that user account...and I only say that because my users prove your statement wrong day after day. It's not that we see the problems as frequently as we used to, but even with that we've written PC usage rules that infer consequences if the users attempt to do the things we don't want them to do.

      Cue Murphy's Law...

    40. Re:Deceptive advertising by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      I don't work in environments as large as yours, so i can only speak from my experience.

      Are you using Software Restriction Policies?
      They solve your problem for sure. But implementing them right will require time and effort.

      Another way is using special folder redirection, and mandatory user profiles.
      This is a bit easier, but it will prevent your users from making configuration changes. Depending on your environment, this can be an acceptable limitation.

      Access to %ProgramFiles% for users is a big nono - just grant specific permissions which those legacy applications really need (yes, you will probably have several days of fun with filemon).

    41. Re:Deceptive advertising by aedan · · Score: 1

      Ayrshire, Glasgow, North Lanarkshire and East Dumbartonshire did use Macs. North Lanarkshire still does. Glasgow did a PFI deal on school and belongs to Mitel/HP now.

      I still use my own PowerBook and sneak the odd Mac Classic/Linux machine in for the kids to play with.

      aedan

  9. That's funny... by Wordplay · · Score: 2, Funny

    so the real question would be 'Is the review worth the money being spent on it?'.

    Usually when I wonder this, it's referring to PC Magazine.

  10. TFA text by Tei · · Score: 0, Redundant

    The RTFA:

    The British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) said on 3 July, 2006 that it has teamed up with management consultants PricewaterhouseCoopers (PWC) to find out whether colleges and schools are getting the best "value" out of using the dominant educational licensing product, Microsoft Campus.

    A spokesperson for Becta said: "Becta has always recognised the importance of ensuring schools and colleges have access to a range of products and services that represent good value for money.

    "In areas where a single supplier is dominant, particular vigilance is necessary to guarantee that this happens and that institutions do not find themselves inadvertently locked in to a particular supplier via, for example, a licensing mechanism."

    Participating colleges will be asked to complete an online survey, along with a four-hour interview on campus.

    The deadline for interested parties is the middle of July and the results of the review will be released in September 2006.

    --

    -Woof woof woof!

    1. Re:TFA text by SleepyHappyDoc · · Score: 1

      Cute. The results will be out in September...well after they might make a difference in anyone's purchasing choices for the upcoming school year.

      --
      Stasis is death. Embrace change.
  11. Don't bet on this being a foregone conclusion by AYeomans · · Score: 2, Informative

    Becta are favourable to Open Source and open standards too. See their Technical Specifications document which, for example, requires text documents to be held as .txt, .rtf or .odt but NOT .doc.
    See also Open Source Software in Schools: A case study report, Open Source Software in Schools: A study of the spectrum of use and related ICT infrastructure costs, Open Source Software in Schools: Information sheet.

    --
    Andrew Yeomans
    1. Re:Don't bet on this being a foregone conclusion by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      This is why some schools switched to Linux networks last year (don't think it was that many - schools don't change unless they have to normally).

      Of course they're probably still running on overpriced Research Machines hardware... sigh...

    2. Re:Don't bet on this being a foregone conclusion by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      I like MS word as a word processor. It is probably the best word processor out there. Well, Koffice and OpenOffice would fill my needs just fine, when I don't feel like spending $300 for an office suite, but if someone else is buying, then my choice is office. My only problem with office is the .doc format. Not only being proprietary, but a completely mangled binary format that changes with each release means that it can't be read by other word processors. Not even other versions of itself. If Microsoft switched to ODF, I'm sure that everyone would still use it, because it's good, and it's what they know. A couple people may switch. Probably at about the rate people are switching to firefox. I guess it could eat into MSs market share eventually, but they may just have to find a better way to make money then selling a word processor for $300.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  12. You missed the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .... a review is being conducted, Tony wants to FUD the review process to claim its wasted money to EVEN DARE TO REVIEW WHETHER MICROSOFT IS GOOD VALUE FOR MONEY, so he posts it for discussion.

    Thats why it's here, because Microsoft has turned from a software company to a political party, where products and features and ease of use no longer matter, it's marketing and dirty campaigning, and mud slinging that matter.

    "Schools want to review the high cost of Microsoft products to save money".
    Microsoft turfer flips it over, "Schools are wasting money on a needless review".

    Swift boat veterans for less school waste.

  13. Support Costs by telchine · · Score: 0

    Two advertisments:

    MS Tech admin required: Salary £15k
    Linux admin required: Salary £15

    Which one will get more applicants do you think?

    Support/maintanence costs for open solutions are higher than those for MS software.

    In a lot of circumstances, the open solutions are better value for money even if they are more expensive. I can't however see any benefits for schools.

    The kids will benefit from open software, but the schools, it'll be an expensive change and an administrative/bureaucratic nightmare.

    1. Re:Support Costs by RJabelman · · Score: 1

      £14,985pa more to admin Windows over Linux?

      It's tempting, but I think I'd choose the Linux job :)

    2. Re:Support Costs by telchine · · Score: 0

      Gah, damn typos. That was quite a mistake, I own up to incompetence of gigantic proportions. Therefore I'm now fully qualified to be a school tech support person :p

    3. Re:Support Costs by davro · · Score: 1

      You could get a paper round that pays more.
      Why bother applying.

  14. As an LEA Schools IT support guy... by tygerstripes · · Score: 3, Informative

    (or LA, as LEAs have been rebranded)

    It's true that maintained (ie non-private) schools do have huge autonomy in how they spend their budget and manage their IT, as long as they support the National Curriculum effectively.
    However, most Primary schools are not large enough to employ anyone with any decent knowledge of IT, and overwhelmingly they surrender part of their budget to the Schools IT Service run by their Local Authority in order to sort these things out. More importantly, they don't have the time or expertise to even look into these things! Even Secondary (High) schools depend on the local IT Support service to some degree - for hardware and network support, if nothing else.

    So, it's down to the LA - the Local Authority, your friendly county/district/borough/city council or Unitary Authority - to drive innovation and intelligent software choice in schools. And what do they do?

    Well, yes, they're predominantly in bed with big corporations who have established enterprise sales, support and service structures in place to get the big council contracts. Now, generally the Schools IT Support teams are somewhat independent from the Corporate IT bods, but seldom are they entirely separate and there is usually a noticeable cross-over. My personal dilemma is that, while I support schools, I myself am supported by the Corporate IT team, and depend on them for my office workstation. The result? Thanks to Council IT Policy, I am forced to use MS for OS, Office and every other flavour of software and as a result, am only able to significantly support schools in the same software .

    Oh, believe me, I would dearly love to get them using OpenOffice.org (which, irritatingly, Capita Education Services - the biggest UK supplier of Schools Management Information Software - do not support), Linux, Firefox, whatever, but because I'm part of this big horrible organisation, my hands are tied and so are the schools'.

    The latest initiative from the government is to open up competition between various Council IT services so schools can go over the border and get their IT support & training from Bogcaster Council instead of Tadminster, but in effect this has virtually no impact since - as I mentioned before - most schools don't have the time or inclination to go hunting around. If it's not dropped in their laps, most schools won't actively seek change as it makes life busier and harder in the short-term.

    In short: No, this report will not make any difference at all.

    --
    Meta will eat itself
  15. Campus Agreement can be reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    The agreement is priced per employee, and covers all the computers owned. The fee has to be paid every year. You can exempt employees that don't use computers such as custodial staff. The fee for us is about $50/employee/year to get Windows, office, and all the client access licenses. For this price you get to run whatever the latest version of Windows/Office is available. When you quit paying the fee, you need to remove the software. For us the computer to employee ratio makes this much cheaper than buying the standard licences, even at educational prices. With standard licenses we have to pay to upgrade or deal with multiple versions of software across different labs and offices. Our license is funded by student fees and students have a great deal of input on how to spend it. We have several Linux and Solaris labs, but they sit mostly unused while there are lines at the Windows labs. The students prefer Windows, faculty and staff for the most part prefer Windows and Office and steer students there, and the businesses these students are hoping to work at in a few years are going to expect them to be familiar with current versions of Windows/Office and nothing a few computer geeks in the computing support area is going to change that. Not quickly anyway.

    1. Re:Campus Agreement can be reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be so sure the linux and solaris machines are going unused. At my university, there was a room of sun workstations that no-one ever went into. Eventually, it was decided to remove them and put windows machines in instead. Next term, when all the students came back and found them gone, a large number of us complained, we'd been using those boxes for shell accounts to do all our unix programming assignments on! We'd even been encouraged to after one of the main shell servers had been taken down within a day of the forking lesson due to too many inadvertant (and probably one or two intentional) fork bombs...

  16. Does only learning Windows provide good value? by GreatDrok · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It would be interesting to weigh the benefits of teaching students to use computers including multiple platforms versus teaching them just to use certain applications (Office) on a single platform. From my experience in education (far too many years in university as a student and staff) I have found that often the students who have a varied experience are also the most comfortable learning new things. Computing is all about new things and if students are scared to try anything it is hard to get them to function, especially in a scientific environment.

    I personally think that the whole standardisation on Windows is not about education quality but rather about making life easy for the teachers who often appear to only be a few pages ahead of the students when it comes to using software. Teachers are the limiting factor. Students are likely to adapt easily to all sorts of platforms without much trouble, but teachers (apart from a small number of bright individuals) have really only learned which button to mash so it isn't surprising that the pupils all learn what button to mash and when mashing that button doesn't work they don't know what to do.

    Is this the future of computing? I really hope not. So no, standardising on a single software platform is not good as they do not learn how to adapt. Learning is not just about known how to do something, it is about why you did it.

    --
    "I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
    1. Re:Does only learning Windows provide good value? by wbren · · Score: 1

      There are some woefully underqualified technology teachers out there, but to say that "teachers are the limiting factor" is inaccurate and demonstrates a misunderstanding of the problems involved. In many communities, there are very specific technology education requirements. In other words, students are expected to know X amount of information about application X. Now, given the school system (in the U.S. anyway), there is really only time to cover the most popular software in use in the business world today: Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office. You can't fault teachers for not having the time they would need to teach multiple platforms. Add to that the fact that many teachers are simply given a curriculum and told to follow it, and you set you're setting them up for failure. The problem is especially bad here in Massachusetts public schools.

      Teacher: "You want to learn to use Linux and OpenOffice? Great! We'll just replace your 2.5 month summer vacation with new Linux/OO.org curriculum.
      Student: "Oh... I'll just take Microsoft Windows and Office please."

      Furthermore, parents would be pissed if their children came home one day and said that for the past few months they had been learning to use some piece of software the parents had never even heard of in their professional careers. "That's what you're using my tax money to teach them?!" There are loads of barriers to the adoption of Linux/FOSS in the school environment, but I don't think "teachers are the limiting factor."

      --
      -William Brendel
  17. Re:Do the ZDNet editors need to go back to school? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

    First, that's not the headline. The headline is "School Software Licenses Under Review."

    Second, just as in the 1920s (or even today, in newsprint) there are formatting concerns with your copy. That hook line (which is what you are referring to) ideally should be in one line and be in a slightly larger font than the article text. In addition, it needs to fit in the width of the rest of the article, for ease of reading, and to allow ads next to the article.

    Third, brevity is important to online journalism no less than print journalism -- people are scanning thousands or even tens of thousands of lines of text a day. Being succinct is crucial to be easy to read, which is something more online news sites should focus on.

    Have a cup of coffee. Relax a bit. You're obviously a bit too high-strung at the moment -- very quick to call them 'idiots' when you apparently don't know the first thing about the "journalistic standards" you mention.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  18. Why shouldn't Microsoft software be evaluated? by knuty · · Score: 1

    The situation is that there are to many evaluations of free software in education, but no one that really looks at the value of proprietary software. In Norway the number of computers has been doubled in education from the year 2000. With 250 Skolelinux installations as an exception, the most of the computers at 3900 schools has Microsoft Windows installed. Research done at the schools shows that the use of computers has stagnated, and in some courses it has decreased. Just in Norway it's done at least 3 evaluations of free software in Schools. Nobody has investigated if Microsoft software really works.

    There are a heavy criticism of the use of computers at schools making the pupils to consumers with text-based tools with application e.g MS Office and some browsing of the Internet. The pupils use of computers at home is much more producer oriented with communication, gaming and making different things with picture and media clips. At home the pupils work with others on the Internet and exchanges what they have made. At schools the just work individually, not using their computer skills. MS Office is an individual application. That kind of office application has no communication value and it's heavily overrated as a teaching tool for learning. The scientists recommend a big change at schools, making more use of the pupils experience from home. If not utilise the pupils practice and experiences, they use of computers in schools could stagnate and the national plans using computers could be irrelevant in a future perspective.

    The only thing Microsoft delivers is office applications and three communications application with e-mail, browser and a messenger (MSN). Teachers and the administration at schools takes it for granted that this i enough. But the don't at all give all the possibilities that the kids or a student use when they are using computers. In my opinion, if the science is done right, they will show that the immense selling effort done by the bureaucracy employed persons in the schools and higher education using office applications from Microsoft, is really hindering and crippling the learning process. When evaluating Microsoft product, the scientists will probably see that Microsoft immense and narrow focus on 5-6 applications has little or nothing to do with education.

    So to investigate the use of Microsoft products could show that the products from Microsoft almost is irrelevant for teaching. The schools could easily replace Microsoft with free software where the educational applications could be used in a standard browser (e.g Firefox) and many of the educational programs that are available as free software.

  19. Worth the money? by Tim+C · · Score: 1

    A study that says "The status quo is perfectly fine, carry on as you are" is fine, as long as it was conducted properly and drew valid conclusions.

    That is, even if it changes nothing, it doesn't mean it wasn't worth the money. Anyone who doesn't review policies and processes regularly has no idea whether they're even relevant any more. "Carry on as you are" can be just as valid an answer as "change it like this".

  20. College Didn't Find a Reason to by CodemasterMM · · Score: 1

    The college that I attend said that they didn't find a reason to renew their subscription with Microsoft - supposedly not enough people took advantage of it. I feel that they didn't mention it to students enough (because how I found out about it at all was another student mentioning it to me).

    They went along to mention to us that the Microsoft products would still be available for "discount prices," although they failed to mention any such prices.

    It was nice, for a while at least, for us college students to obtain Windows for $5.

    1. Re:College Didn't Find a Reason to by mrxak · · Score: 1

      I got a similar email, sounds like we go to the same place. Reason cited was also the very high cost of the program (which as you said, was wasted since nobody used it).

      I believe the discount prices are supposed to be below the normal academic rate (still overpriced if you ask me).

  21. Microsoft's University EULA by woolio · · Score: 1

    At the university that I attend (which is a really big one), I've noticed the EULA for the M$ software is somewhat strange. (We have the deep discount program where software can be "purchased" much more cheaply than the "academic" versions, with some restrictions.)

    For something like ~$50, students can "license" Microsoft Windows/Office under the EULA until one of the following occur:
    1) They quit the university (they can't use the software anymore)
    2) They graduate (Then they get to keep it)
    3) The school-specific contract/EULA expires!

    My school representatives and the Microsoft contacts I have emailed (which happened to be located in India), assure me that #3 isn't a problem. It should also be noticed that the Microsoft representatives I contacted refused to give me an electronic copy of the regular Academic software EULAs, citing it was not available online [I later found it on microsoft.com]. However the actual terms of the 'contract' spell out that the terms are with respect to a particular *version* of the contract.

    Thus, even if the school renews the contract (which I can only assume would get a new version), the licenses granted under the old (expired) contract would appear to be invalid. They may/may not be the intent, but it clearly is implied by the letter of the document.

    Which means more $$$ for Microsoft! Darn!

    And for me, since #3 will occur before #2 [and I'm almost done], it means anyone who pays money to Microsoft right now will be technically screwing themselves.

  22. Re:Do the ZDNet editors need to go back to school? by Gryle · · Score: 1

    You're recommending coffee to an already high-strung person?

    --
    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
  23. Change afoot by ajs318 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Human beings have two modes of learning.

    Babies and young children learn by rote {means-oriented}. Older children learn more in terms of abstract concepts {end-oriented}. This is an evolutionary necessity; a three-year-old probably hasn't worked out the likely consequences of tumbling over a cliff edge, so a harsh reprimand from an adult can literally be a lifesaver. Teenagers think they know it all and are continually experimenting with boundaries. Adults have a tendency to revert spontaneously to means-oriented learning if they think they cannot understand something.

    Now, as things currently stand, Microsoft have achieved a monopoly through a combination of illegal and immoral practices. So schools are teaching Microsoft because "it's what they'll encounter in the real world", and meanwhile businesses are buying Microsoft because "it's what they learned in school".

    Schools today are basically free Microsoft training centres. The kids don't learn word processing, they learn MS Word. They don't learn spreadsheets, they learn Excel. They don't learn to design web pages, they learn FrontPage. The teachers are just parrotting from the Microsoft textbook. All those unreliable Windows machines need resetting from time to time, so a full-time "IT technician" is required to go around rebooting them and never understanding what went wrong in the first place. This demeans the job title of technician {it used to mean "someone who knows just as much as an engineer, works just as hard as an engineer and gets paid half as much as an engineer"}. A monkey could be trained to do that, for crying out loud. Maybe somewhere in the world there is an organisation which has actually trained a monkey to reboot misbehaving Windows boxes. Actually, Microsoft are working on lowering the status of "engineer" as well {it used to mean "someone who did more mathematics at university than someone on a mathematics course"}.

    Maybe if schools weren't indoctrinating impressionable minds into The Microsoft Way from an early age, then businesses wouldn't all be buying MS Office "because it's what they learned in school".

    I was actually around in the 1980s, and I was forced to listen to all the music that doesn't get played at "80s nights" because it was shite. In order to survive around computers in those days, you had to pick up on abstract concepts because there was no consistency. BBCs, Commodore 64s, Orics, Spectrums, Dragon 32s, Amstrad CPCs, and the obsolete models they had replaced -- they were all different. Get yourself an emulator and some tape images, and have a play. Newsagents sold magazines with listings that the truly masochistic could spend hours typing in. Some people actually managed to hack a program written in one computer's dialect of BASIC to run on another {I accomplished this feat at least twice myself, modifying a PILOT interpreter originally meant for the Apple ][, and a text adventure game meant for the Oric, to run on the BBC model B}. As the next-generation machines like the Amiga took over, type-in listings disappeared; due in no small measure to the lack of a useful bundled programming language. {AmigaBASIC was like a poor-quality "1970s crate" emulator; barely computationally-complete, and certainly couldn't be used for writing any sort of application programs.} When I left school and went to university, there was a curious mix of DOS, VAX/VMS; and, later, more or less heavily modified versions of Unix. The VT220-alikes in a room wouldn't even necessarily have the same keyboard layout.

    I survived.

    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    1. Re:Change afoot by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      I recently got an engineering degree. We did more math than anyone except the math majors and the physicists. And we scoff at people with no engineering degree, some industry cert, and the name "engineer" in their job descriptioni.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
  24. and what that this prove? by shis-ka-bob · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The PC and Internet revolutions were Geek-driven. The non-Geek office workers were quite happy with secretaries and file clerks. Remember when 'file' meant a pile of papers sitting in folder and 'file search' meant rummaging though cabinets trying to figure out if the file was misplaced or if you simply had the wrong key work (e.g. 'Car Insurance', 'Auto Insurance ' or 'Insurance for the Honda'). The non-Geek office worker was satified with this.

    So who cares what the non-Geek users are using? Thats like trying to understand where a herd of horses is going without looking at the lead stallion. Of course most of us are not as physically imposing as a stallion, but the analogy has some validity: If the lead stallion is considering the needs of the herd, he can succeed. If the open source Geeks are looking our for the needs of the non-Geek office worker, they too can succeed and that success is good for all. There are many forms of leadership, Geeks provide the technical leadership of society.

    --
    Think global, act loco
    1. Re:and what that this prove? by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      Thats like trying to understand where a herd of horses is going without looking at the lead stallion. Of course most of us are not as physically imposing as a stallion, but the analogy has some validity
      Mod parent up for bathos.
      Funniest thing I've read all week.
      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  25. Deceptive? by shaneh0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is another example of the "Micro$oft $ucks" slashdot mentality.

    Worst-case scenario: A parent sees the commercial and decides that instead of the new Macbook that their son asked for to assist with his music production, they could purchase a great Wintel notebook for 2/3 the price. So they head to Best Buy, pick it up, and perhaps after they give it to their son they find out that it doesn't have ANY MUSIC CREATION SOFTWARE! Oh No! So they search Google for /windows "music creation software"/ and what do you know: 70,000 results.

    Looks like those parents were DECIEVED all right.

    Microsoft is advertising their platform. Their brand. Maybe the best thing is that in a year when the kid no longer cares about creating digital music he can use his Windows-based notebook to run any of the millions of other software applications that have been written for Windows over the past 15 years.

    It's like saying that Gatorade commercials are deceptive because Gatorade doesn't actually sell sporting goods equipment.

    1. Re:Deceptive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, you don't get it. While there's plenty of Windows software for creatives, the best of it is always Mac-first or Mac-only. Not to mention Windows has a well-known effect of stifling creativity; Windows is an operating system designed by squares, for squares. It's no accident the majority of artists (whether poets, musicians, or avant-garde mathematicians) use Macs.

    2. Re:Deceptive? by shaneh0 · · Score: 1

      The MSFT commecials were suggesting that Windows will ignite the creativity of your CHILD by equipping them, in this specific example, with the ability to make & manipulate music on their PC.

      It doesn't matter that professional artists of all stripes use Macs. Your child doesn't need pro tools (or Pro Tools, even tho it's available on Windows). An average parent wouldn't purchase $4000 custom golf clubs or $500 tennis rackets, for example. They'd go to Dicks Sporting Goods and buy something that most professionals wouldn't be caught dead using.

  26. Re:Do the ZDNet editors need to go back to school? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1
    You're recommending coffee to an already high-strung person?
    Caffeine withdrawal is a bitch, my friend, and only feeding the beast some of what it wants will make it go away. (I was just guessing the nature of his beast, but caffeine seemed likely to me).
    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  27. Product or service? A bit off topic - sorry by Bombula · · Score: 1
    This brings up the issue of software companies use differential pricing, and I wonder about the ethics and legality involved.

    For products it is not legal to charge two customers different prices without some approved mechanism (like coupons). Mr. White comes in and buys a loaf of bread for $1, then Mr. Black comes in and it's suddenly $2. Illegal. Now if Mr. French comes into a store in Paris, you can charge him $3 for a loaf, while charging Mr. Indian in New Delhi $0.10. Legal. Hell, if you're Amazon.com you can charge totally different prices for Star Trek box sets and other DVDs depending on what region you're selling them to. Legal (grrrr).

    But for services, it is different. You can charge your clients whatever you please. You can even forbid them (legal?) from disclosing the rates they're getting to anyone else. You can do pro bono work and charge nothing at all.

    So what is software? A product or a service? I guess it depends. It can be a pretty grey area, bit I guess when licensing is involved it becomes a service, and so Microsoft and others can then charge whatever they please.

    But the ethical issues just don't go away. Why is it OK to charge A US company, say, $10,000 for a 100 user site license, a US school $2,000 for the same, and a Kenyan school $100? Why not charge $100 to everyone? Is it fair to gouge US companies, just because they can afford it? Microsoft hasn't made hundreds of billions in profit over the years for no reason.

    So I guess my question is, why do the laws and ethics of differential (and disrcriminatory) pricing only apply to traditional products and not to services (like law and medicine) or hybrids like software?

    --
    A-Bomb
  28. What happened to bidding? by Intron · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So why isn't desktop software purchased the same way as every other item a school buys? Just put out a spec saying what it has to do and the level of support expected and take the lowest reputable bidder. If the spec says: "must have email, spreadsheet, word processor, email, etc." then OK, but if it is written to say "must be MS" then something is wrong. If they were doing that, there would be no need to have to "review" whether they did the right thing, they would have done that up front.

    --
    Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    1. Re:What happened to bidding? by danheretic · · Score: 1

      Intriguing thought. Wouldn't work, though. I can tell you from personal experience (I am an IT manager at a university, and one of my roles is to purchase software) that most major purchases (including technology) have more to do with politics than you would think. (Actually, more university operations are more guided by politics than you would like to think.) Any "state contract" pricing for technology is usually not a great deal, if it's even better off at all*. IT "standards" are normally decided by a higher-level committee and are almost always guided by someone's personal agenda. (Someone more politically powerful than anyone else on the committee.) Sometimes IT mandates are handed down to the university from the state government.

      At many universities (mine included), the individual Colleges and Departments often have great autonomy but little support from central IT if they deviate from the norm. Most individual departments simply don't have the resources (in terms of technology or human capital) to deviate from the norm that way. And when it comes down to it, we have clients -- i.e. the faculty, staff and students who may ask for or demand certain IT functions which may necessitate going directions we'd rather not go. More often than not, this means mainstream, i.e. Microsoft.

      I'm fortunate to work within an Engineering College which does happen to have resources to deviate from the central campus IT and do what we deem necessary and beneficial to our educational mission. We're a non-discriminatory OS & software bunch: We support Windows, Mac, Unix, Linux; 1/3 of our open computer labs are Sunray thin clients; we install OpenOffice right next to MS Office on every system; we've effectively banned IE and replaced it with Firefox. Plus, we fought to not have to buy Dell PCs and instead chose our own (whitebox) vendor. Unfortunately, we're hampered by central campus IT: We have to allow IE use for some users because some central campus resources are only managed with IE; after years of banning Outlook, we're forced to start allowing it because the central campus IT just implemented Exchange server for the entire campus calendar; and we're installing more and more MS products because the campus just bought a Microsoft Campus agreement (and billed each department for their share). Finally, there's absolutely no way the majority of our computer labs could be non-Microsoft, because the specialized Engineering software that's needed to teach courses is in most cases only written for Windows computers.

      *Our Dell "discount" is actually more expensive than a non-affiliated customer's base price, for the same systems. It's easy to spot: Just go to the Dell site and go through the "Academic" portal, identify yourself as to which contract you have, then go back to the Dell site and go through the normal business portal. I have actually seen that in some cases, for the exact same systems, the contract pricing is more expensive. Dell isn't the only one that does this, either.

    2. Re:What happened to bidding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The spec says "must be compatible with all software that says 'requires MS Windows'". Office is a little more fuzzy, but it's still a hard sell to go with anything else because nothing is 100% and undoubtedly the superintendent or principal will find an obscure feature that won't mesh when they're trying to get their presentation to display correctly on someone else's laptop that only has powerpoint installed 5 minutes before a board meeting.

  29. It's a better value than Enterprise or Select! by pcguru19 · · Score: 1

    In the 90's, Microsoft figured out how to out-Apple Apple in their marketing to colleges and universities. They used their market share to sell colleges that they're doing their students a dis-service if they don't run Office because that's what they'll be running once they graduate. The pricing for Campus is less than a Select or Enterprise agreement and it makes the act of being a software reseller for Microsoft a much easier enterprise for the campus bookstore if they don't go through a clearinghouse for that sort of thing.
              Currently Apple markets mostly to primary-secondary education with the graphic arts programs being the big competition space for them in colleges. Most of the bargain is if you opt to finance through apple as an individual teacher or institution. If Apple had some bright sales reps, they'd be pumping dual-boot mac-minis across the desks of a number of IT departments in colleges and universities. With dual boot, they can sell flexibility at a marginal cost increase and set up the MAC OS for internet use and the Windows OS for corporate-life preperation.

    --
    STFU & GBTW
  30. Not Exactly by vtcodger · · Score: 1
    ***Educational software isn't written for linux. Too true, but most educational software I have seen is crap anyway***

    It really doesn't matter if you (or I) think a given application is crap. It's what the teacher or other user thinks that matters. These are mostly competent people with jobs to do. In my experience, there isn't one IT guy in ten that remotely understands what teachers and school staff do or what tools they actually need. It's their house. You should play by their rules if you can. There are a few exceptions -- for example HTML eMail -- where the security risks to the school network may need to override the user's preferences, but mostly it should be their call.

    BTW, if you think that Windows educational software is crap (and in many cases I wouldn't argue with you), is it realistic to propose Web based stuff as an alternative? In my experience, most of it doesn't run anywhere near as well as the Windows based stuff you dislike. IMHO HTML with or without help from CSS,Java, Flash, et al is a long, long way from working even as well as Windows 3. It's OK for simple data presentation applications. Pretty much a disaster beyond that. But that's changing? Sure. In a decade, maybe two, it may well be ready for prime time.

    --
    You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
  31. Ideology as the new economics. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "In addition, in many countries a copy of Windows must purchased with the machine notwithstanding that is a clear violation of the most basic antitrust principles."

    Is it? Or is it more likely that the alternatives aren't "effective" (for various reasons) and hence the OEM's don't offer them? It might be said to be a "antitrust violation" if the alternatives were a one to one replacement, but they're not, and you can't fault the OEMs for making an economic instead of an ideological decision.

  32. Alternatively by I+Am+Defragged · · Score: 1

    My University has a two independent computer networks as far as I know: "Computer Science" and "Everyone else". The "Everyone Else" network runs XP Home, MS Office, IE, with Exchange Webmail for email access, MSN Messenger and the MS Language tools. The Computer Science network runs White Box Linux, with Firefox/Thunderbird, OpenOffice and general Linux dev tools like Netbeans, GNU Emacs, Gedit etc.

    Each network's suited to it's purpose. Obviously (for example) I'd prefer it if they made Firefox the default browser on the main network (an older version is available, buried in a 'Utilities' section of the start menu, most people don't know it's there) but then you lose IE-Only functionality in the webmail. I suspect the university gets massive discounts on it's bulk licensing by making MS pretty much ubiquitous.

    I'd be curious to see how a more widespread Linux roll-out would work on campus. Obviously the more tech-savvy CS users have no problem with it, and obviously different tools would need to be made available to the other students (I can't see the art department having pupils write their dissertations in LaTex for example) with Windows being made available for the software that requires it.

  33. Somebody is offering "porches"? by ripcrd · · Score: 1

    I would love it if someone would build me a new porch. New porches in my area are all the rage. Concrete with a cover and some hanging baskets, possibly screened-in or glassed in so you can injoy the outdoors, without the heat and bugs.

    --
    --Somewhere there is a village missing an idiot.
  34. Good to see someone thinking by Quiberon · · Score: 1

    If all you get for the licence fee is a promise that the Microsoft lawyers won't sue you, then no, they are not good value. You would be better off with pencil and paper.

  35. Ooooh! Free porches! by Oxyrubber · · Score: 1

    So one frat on campus gets a place to put a rotten couch and louunge in front of the frat house drinking beer because the college bought into a massive Microsoft software license? Wouldn't a free Porsche be more of an enticement/bribe? And what exactly can a school do with an expensive car that seats 2 (maybe 4). I'm thinking that one of the on-campus frats should fill a balloon with shaving cream and hang it from a light post above the car ("Scent of a Woman"-style). For future reference, "Porsche" has an "s" in the middle and is always capitalized (as it is a brand... which is a proper noun).

    --
    "If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." - Jay Leno
  36. MS Office can not be avoided... by dtjohnson · · Score: 1

    The local high school requires that every student complete a 'tech' requirement to graduate by either passing an online test or by taking a one-semester 'tech' class. The 'tech' subjects that the students are required to know are not computer languages, file systems, operating system functions, user interface layout, programming, etc. No, the 'tech subjects' are MS Excel, MS Word, MS Publisher, MS Powerpoint, and MS Front Page. The online test displays screens from these apps and then asks the student to select the proper menu choice to perform some desired action. The student gets three trys for each question and then they 'fail' the question and on to the next. Worse is that the test is based on Office XP, not Office 2003. Of course, Office 2007 will have different menus so all of that 'knowledge' will soon be obsolete. Keep in mind that a lot of these kids have parents who work at Microsoft.

  37. The EULA is a felony under FERPA by RecycledElectrons · · Score: 1

    If you do not understand the EULA, or you do not understand FERPA, do not buy software for a school. You are comitting a felony under FERPA. Ther are specific requirements for student privacy, which are violated by M$' license agreements, which state that they may tap into and watch any user's PC at any time, and that they may seek out any data stored on that computer.

    Andy Out!

    1. Re:The EULA is a felony under FERPA by base3 · · Score: 1

      FERPA is a civil matter, and a student doesn't even have a direct cause of action; only the U.S. Department of Education can sanction a school for violating FERPA. And there are no criminal penalties of any kind. Are you confusing FERPA with some other law?

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
  38. Re:Product or service? A bit off topic - sorry by Quiberon · · Score: 1
    Sometimes, differential pricing for services is the only way to turn a profit while doing something socially desirable. Think of a doctor; he/she should save the life of a rich person for a high price, and save the life of a poor person for a low price (or for nothing). Two lives saved, and the doctor's family fed.

    Airlines are the same; they need to offer 'first class' and 'economy' fares. A seat still available 30 seconds before the door closes is worth more than a seat that you promise to occupy 6 months ahead; higher risk to the airline, though, because if no-one buys the seat by the time the door closes, it's not worth anything.

    Microsoft seen to have used 'differential pricing' to induce dependency; but I can still use pencil, paper, and crayons. I am not dependent on them. I can write software, too.

  39. Re:Product or service? A bit off topic - sorry by Howler · · Score: 1

    I used to work for a software firm that wrote software for the property and caualty insurance industry. The practice of charging price 'A' to one customer and price 'B' to another is not necessarily discriminitory. Its more of a way to get your product into the hands of users who can't necessarily afford it.

    For example. The company I worked for based the price to charge a client (insurance company) on their direct written premium (DWP). A small company could have a low DWP and be charged less than a company that was larger, and whose DWP was higher than the small company. It could also be flipped around the small company could have a higher DWP than the larger one. This may be because the larger company bought a smaller one to get into the insurance market and the smaller company has a better sales force or is highly specialized. Regardless, the price was based on DWP.

    So maybe one company gets charged $1000 and the other $10,000. This isn't discriminatory because its what the company could afford. Its a win-win situation. The company got some money for its software even at $1000 and we have a nice addition to our user base. The real win is that the customer is now a user of that software and not someone elses. With this particular type of software being so expensive its likely that the new customer will not change vendors in quite a few years. (A lot of deals were in the millions along with a few years of implementation)

    Microsoft is attempting something similar here albeit on a smaller scale. Sure they may not get a real financial return on their software that they sold to the Kenyan school for $100 bux. But the REAL return is that the kids in the Kenyan school are learning on MICROSOFT products and will know how to use those products and not the products of a Microsoft competitor and once a person gets familiar with something, its much harder for them to change to something that does the exact samething, even if it is cheaper or just plain free.

    Don't get me wrong I am not trying to defend Microsoft by any stretch, but I can see what they are doing and its nothing more than what a lot of companies currently do to get users/customers.

    They are merely attempting to price products appropriately to the region in which they are selling.

  40. Re:Bill... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i thought you were retiring?

    seriously, though, the courage to end drug addiction isn't found in most folks. linux is not hard to administor - don't extrapolate the myriad of windows problems to a well thought out linux set up.

    one problem is OPM - other people's money. it is so easy to spend it.

  41. Real world software in Schools! by EricTheO · · Score: 0

    Until other software is predominant in the world outside of school, it will be prudent to use software in school that will be found in the future jobs of graduates. In general terms that means Microsoft products. Why train students to use only Linux or other open source software if over half the students will never see or use it in their jobs?

    --
    -Eric