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Is Graduate School Useful in Today's World?
An anonymous reader wonders: "gradschoolstory.com has an entry on the Top 10 Reasons to go to Graduate School in the Modern World. Why did Slashdot readers go to graduate school and what did they get out of it?"
nt
That was my #1 reason. I wasn't really happy doing general business consulting after my undergrad, so I quit to get a Master's degree and get myself into the entertainment industry. I moved myself across the U.S. to do so, and I've got to say I haven't regretted doing so.
I have a year left in my program, but I'm confident that I'm going to get a job where I want. Programming video games is a little more specific than other industry changes, perhaps, but at least in this case I know that I'm getting some skills and practical experience doing things I haven't ever done before. A lot of people said to me, "Don't go back to school, just program some games yourself!" That's hard to do when you've got a full-time job and a commute, so I decided going back to school was the best thing to do in my case.
School is expensive, but having a job that you love doing is worth any amount of money.
Well, the door was open...
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Not sure why it wouldn't be beneficial with a computer science degree. Business Analyst positions are in demand. Being able to interface between the code monkeys and the suits is wonderful. Code Monkeys think they are smart because the can code anything given a really good spec. However, the guys who can translate between fuzzy requirements into a useful spec are the real smart ones. They have to understand both worlds or projects fall on their face.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
I attended graduate school at Yale University. I got to learn from some truly great teachers, and have that experience to rely on for the rest of my life. I also benefit from being able to send my resume to just about any company and get an interview - I've never had a problem getting a job.
Especially for Piled high and Deeps, the destination is never guaranteed, so you'd better enjoy the journey.
There are too many accredited diploma mills out there it seems. Sad to say but it's getting harder to differentiate between candidates, so many companies are requiring further study. Is that the right thing to do? I don't know, but it they're definitely going in that direction.
If you really want a good start in any engineering field, I'd suggest a MSc.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
Sounds like you never went for an MBA...
No, and I probably never will.
I wasn't actually attacking on MBAs in general; I was just pointing out that our President has an MBA.
Here's the thing about people that go to grad school to get an MBA. A very small percentage are interesting people who want to do interesting things in life, and they see their path as owning or running a business. The vast majority of people earning or who have earned an MBA do it because it will lead to more money. These people are uninteresting. Boring. Status quo. It's hard to blame any of them individually for the world's ills, but it's awfully hard to posit that they're part of the solution.
Maybe you're part of the one or two percent that will go on to do something interesting. If so, my hat's off to you. However, don't go over-inflating the worth of an MBA beyond its earning power.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
I think Credability is the key word here. Right or wrong, that piece of paper does confer some level of credability. Without it, you are jsut some guy with ideas. They may be right, they may be wrong, it doesn't matter because for people who don't know you there is little credibility to back that up. With the piece of paper, you still might be wrong, but it is easier to convince people that your ideas are worth looking into to start with.
Got an MSEE that my employer paid for. Got a raise out of it, but little else. Most of what I use on a day to day basis is from application notes, manuals published by industry component makers like Xilinx and Cypress Semiconductor, IEEE papers and my own library of books.
My employer offered to send me to get a PhD, but the reward to annoyance ratio was prohibitive. I think my exact response was "Ha ha ha ha ha! You're kidding, right?" I dunno... I just have no buring desire to be called "Doctor". I think it's pretentious.
Instead I spent the time designing equipment that won me company awards, and much more respect than some piece of paper. :-)
I disagree with both the parent and the response. First, I don't care what graduate school you go to, 90% of the people don't drop out. If you were looking at graduate schools, and you saw a 90% attrition rate, would you ever consider attending? No, not at all. The parent post is right in that professors do need warm bodies to do their bidding, and they will try to keep you under their thumbs for as long as possible. However, it serves their best interests to let you graduate, or else no prospective graduate student in their right mind will matriculate to that school or join that research group, especially the smart ones! In the same way that top tier (Ivy League included) schools are accused of padding grades, graduations are also padded to make their school look good. Second, competent professors are filthy rich, especially in the more technology specific fields. I don't disagree with edremy's salary assessments; he seems fully accurate on that count. However, in any field that involves the discovery of new things/processes (biology, chemistry, physics), income from patents are going to match or exceed income for even the mediocre professors. The reason for this is they get cuts off whatever patents their graduate students may stumble upon. When you consider how many students a professor has in the lifetime of a patent, you can see that it would be fairly easy for a prof to be sitting on a few patents at a time for the duration of his career with a relatively small percentage of his graduate students ever producing a patent. If you don't believe my logic/rationalization, check out where your advisors live and ask yourself if they can do that on an income under $100k a year.
Yes, we know. And 78.2% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
Do you honestly believe this?
In my classes, we've talked about this. It's the first question the professors ask: "Why are you here?" People are brutally honest. A few say they're in it for the money. A few say they like the idea of adding initials to their name. Some never went to college, so they're trying to wrap up undergrad and graduate school at the same time.
The vast majority, however (and no, I'm not going to quote statistics -- because I don't have any) say they're tired and bored with their jobs. They like where they work more or less, but their particular tasks are repetitive and dull. System admins, programmers, etc. They want to move up to a position where their decisions matter.
Years ago, you could climb the corporate ladder to become a manager/director/CTO/CIO. You can't do this anymore. Many positions are revolving doors, and it's almost impossible to make your mark in companies that are always in flux. Just like more decent businesses won't accept you unless you have a college degree (bare minimum), most businesses won't accept managers who haven't got an MBA. It's the current reality of business and you'll just have to get used to it.
Also, I would like to comment on the "interesting things in life, and they see their path as owning or running a business" bit. I don't see owning a business as a particularly interesting thing (at least not "more interesting" than managing in an established company). I know plenty of people with crappy small businesses that will never get off the ground -- I'm not sure how they could be interesting. Personally, I wouldn't even attach the word "interesting" to one's career choice -- what you do outside of work is really what defines you.
However, don't go over-inflating the worth of an MBA beyond its earning power.
And don't go listening to stereotypes. They're usually wrong.
1. You get to meet and work with people who are pretty clear about what they want.
I do that now. Why do I need graduate school for this?
2. The rest of the world suddenly takes you more seriously.
I just negotiated and won approval for a $600k project. The people I care about already take me seriously.
3. You can use graduate school as an ideal environment for beginning work on a startup.
Or you can spend some time working for startups and parter on the next project with people who have experience and credentials starting a company, not just wild ideas.
4. You can use graduate school as a pivot to change your career.
If it took you that long to figure out you picked the wrong career.
5. You get to pick your choice of work and your work hours.
I do that now.
6. You can get involved in projects that can actually impact the real world.
You can do that in the work force and be well paid for it.
7. You can get involved in projects that have absolutely no impact on the real world. You can work on things simply because they're interesting and fun. You often get paid to do this.
And then you can become a professor/researcher at the school and continue to get paid piddling amounts for someone with your talents. Which might be okay if you had free choice in what you wanted to investigate, but you don't have free choice. You have to write proposals and sell your ideas to various committees and sponsors and fight your way through some vicious office politics on the way. So in the end you don't work on what you want to, but instead settle for what you can get approved.
8. You can do things that you missed out on in your undergraduate school. It's a second chance.
If you need a second chance. But if grad students are folks who needed a second chance to get it right, what does that say about their abilities?
9. If you're good at what you do, you can count on being invited to travel around the world to conferences and seminars.
If you like public speaking. Personally, I'm an introvert.
10. You get to be the TA this time around.
Because I always wanted to be the guy who got paid piddling amounts of money to do a lousy job of teaching students, all of whom clearly understand that I'm doing a lousy job.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
I do. Every word.
Every person that I've ever met that has taken an MBA (only 80-120 people, so a small dataset) has done it for one of two reasons:
1. To make lots and lots of money
2. To advance in their career (not to do more interesting things, just to move up the ladder).
And I don't fault them for it one bit. It is very true that adding the letters M, B and A to the end of your business card will increase your odds of a high salary tremendously.
Also, there are some positions (typically top tier business positions) that are far to difficult to work your way up to without an MBA -- it's not that you can't, it's just that it's much easier to do if you have the training, and the prestige that comes with the designation. As far as reasons for moving up the ladder? Let's be honest, jab satisfaction is a huge part -- but so is compensation.
Looking up doctor pay scales, the pay for those two was only about 30-40% higher than the average for people in those specialities. Again, a quick scan shows a bunch of the people on that list make less than the average for their speciality- for example, Charles Clark pulls in $350k as a Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery- the average in his field is $381k, and I'll put money that he's far above average in talent.
Paid well? Yep. Overpaid? I'd argue not- don't you want the best possible doctors at teaching hospitals? Cut the pay to some level far below what you'll find in private practice and you'll lose the good people.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
And I was paid roughly the same in my first job after my bachelor's degree ten years ago... Except I was paid on salary, not part time, and I got paid vacation and benefits to too. And it was ten years ago.
As for how well you teach your students, it sounds like you're on track to become a professor. If that's your goal then you're doing the right thing and you shouldn't let me dissuade you. Teaching was not among my goals.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
Think about it. You want people to spend 4 years in college, than an additional what 2 or 4 years for something thats NOT Law or Medicine? And why? Just because you can't find the job you want with an undergrad degree? Why are other people with undergrad degrees able to find good jobs then? What makes them better at it than you? I think its absolutely gonzo nutjobbish to suggest that having an undergrad degree isn't enough. There are folks out there without any degrees at all who are making it so anyone with an undergrad ought to be able to do just about anything they want. Getting a graduate degree should be something you do because you want to not because you feel you have to. Personally I would be damn near suicidal if I knew I went to school until I was 25-28 just to become a slightly higher paid WORKER. All that time in school post college (or post high school) could have been spent founding and building your own company.
Also what if the gamble fails. What if grad school doesn't lead to a better career. How are you supposed to shoulder the costs of college + grad school loans then? Bankruptcy laws were recently changed to forbid people from shedding their educational loans paybacks.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
You got it, goldsmith.
I've already done a Master's while working full-time (in order to be a competitive applicant for a Ph.D. program) and I will be going to a full-time, graduate-assistant-type Ph.D. program in about a month.
I'm going for the doctorate for three very important reasons:
1. I decided I want to spend my life working as a psychologist. That requires a doctorate in every jurisdiction in the States. There is a "professional degree" called the Psy.D. nowadays, but your options for work are limited to practice, or, if you are very lucky, sometimes teaching. The Ph.D. allows you to get hired to research, teach, OR practice. This leaves my future options fairly wide open.
2. I don't want to spend the rest of my life doing what other people tell me to do. In 2002, I had an epiphany. I was literally fetching coffee, for a research meeting on a laser device project (I work in a major engineering school), and I realized I was getting coffee for people who were no smarter than me --- only possessed of skills I don't have and don't want.
3. I want the experience of graduate school, more or less as goldsmith has outlined. Or, as a psychologist I know from a mailing list said, I want to (and if you are gonna be a grad student, you HAVE to) "learn to love the smell of the wax".
I am personally very much looking forward to my Ph.D. program -- seems to be full of very nice people doing very interesting and worthwhile work.
Love this thread BTW. Can't recall the last time I commented on a Slashdot thread.
I started a humanities Ph.D. program after two years working for a government law office. I've spoken with many graduate students, law students, and lawyers who took time off between college and graduate school. None of them regretted taking time between college and grad school. Many of the lawyers and law students I know who went straight to law school wish they had worked first.
Some reasons to work before graduate school:
From that point of view, graduate school is getting a PhD. Masters and professional students serve two purposes: fund raising and an outlet for failed/burned out Ph.D. students.
This may be true in some schools in the USA, but it is not true everywhere. There are tonnes of masters degrees, some more research-oriented and others more vocational. It is a big mistake to assume that someone with a masters is either a PhD dropout or someone who paid for a few more letters after their name.
Most of the research universities in Canada, for instance, expect entering PhD candidates to have already earned a master's. As a result, supervisors tend to push their masters students harder than in the States, exposing them to knottier research problems and encouraging them to publish.
Apparently your doctorate didn't teach you not to make generalizations where it's not warranted...