Slashdot Mirror
Air Marshals Place Innocents on Secret Watch List
An anonymous reader writes "The Denver Channel 7 News reports that federal air marshals are operating under a quota for reporting a minimum number of suspicious travelers which is resulting in innocent people being placed on a secret government watch list. From the article: 'These unknowing passengers who are doing nothing wrong are landing in a secret government document called a Surveillance Detection Report, or SDR.'"
I'm sort of curious as to why this was placed under IT, and not YRO or Politics...
-mrxak
Onions Will Kill You
Personally I disagree with quotas in law enforcement, as I do not think that they help catch the bad guys out there. I do think there is a lot more to the story than TFA indicates.
Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
</sarcasm>
Seriously, I can't think of a worse system than quotas to put investigators under. It just screams Civil-Rights-Violation-Waiting-To-Happen.
What would you expect? It's not as if we have a true justice system here in America. A criminal breaks into a home and causes $2,000 worth of damage and what do we do? Feed him and take car of him in a jail while the homeowner is left to clean up the mess and insurance money (paid by the homeowner) takes care of the losses. Or, more often than not, simply let the criminal go with a warning. Then we spend our money falsely accusing innocent people just to keep up a "quota". Greed then drives what we like to think of as justice. It happens more than you think: e.g. officer's needing quotas for traffic violations & arrests and so caring more about their quota than justice in a certain situation. I know, it's not all bad and there are cops and agents that really DO care about justice. It's just the system that is messed up...
Homeland Security: Our budget is proportional to the number of terrorists we find. When there aren't enough terrorists, we make them.
Ayn Rand was an optimist.
Until you get the possessions of the people you denounce. I've got my eye on spiffy leather couch.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
It seems a little odd that these guys have such a vested financial interest in finding "something" every month. I'm sure it's just a method of weeding out the slackers who just want to sleep on all the flights and say 'everything was fine'. But couldn't they find a better way to check on these marshals? Like a secret shopper program or something? It works in retail.....
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
So the Washington Post or NYT are the only reliable sources of information?
I'm very much worried about the reliablity of my sources also, but rejecting a story just because it isn't from a headlining news source?
That just seem as dead-brained as blindly believing anything anyone says.
WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
So the Denver news is now a reliable source of information? Let's see some Washington Post or NYT article being linked to.
Yeah, them damn hicks out west don't know squat. Now then, care to explain what makes an eastern paper more credible?
What?
Ha! Everyone's doing something wrong. We just need to find out what it is.
The spirit of Tailgunner Joe lives on.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
How about you?
[neo con parody off]
Just how silly is that, I ask? How do you meet a quota when you're looking out for suspicious people? You declare someone suspicious who isn't, how else?
... well, there.
God, just how DUMB are those national security morons? If anything, the NSA makes me feel LESS safe when I'm in the US. I feel like I'm under constant surveillance, being a suspect for being
Is that what you want to accomplish, NSA? Is that the goal? Alienate the rest of the world, even those that used to LOVE your country, turn the rest of the world into your enemy so you can have perpetual war? The US are turning faster and faster into everything I hated about the communist system.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
"All men are guilty. They're born innocent, but it doesn't last." -- from "le circle rouge" (1970)
We'll all be on the watch list by then anyway.
Game... blouses.
The air marshals, whose identities are being concealed, told 7NEWS that they're required to submit at least one report a month. If they don't, there's no raise, no bonus, no awards and no special assignments.
If true, these people have just admitted they weren't subjecting innocent people to punishment because they'd lose their job otherwise and be unable to support their family -- an understandable, if still morally weak position. No, they did it because they wanted more money. Or a dental plan. Or a longer vacation. That's what's known as being stunning and embarassingly selfish.
At the risk of godwinning myself, what's that famous quote about the holocause that goes along the line of "there will always be number-crunchers behind the scenes eager to see if they can make the count even higher next time?"
The stereotypical image of the tin-foil hat donning conspiracy nut is finally laid to rest, the government really are watching!
This crap must have to happen every so many years. We had the Commie witch-hunt in the 50's (Ever listen to a radio play, "I Was A Communist For The FBI"?), Nixon's personal enemies list of the late 60's/early 70's (included well known subversive peace activist and pot smoker John Lennon), now under W. You know W's regime is loaded with old Cold Warriors, right? Some ideas die hard. If we don't have an emeny, we create one, thus keeping the public's attention on the War while we loot the treasury.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them." - Frederick Douglass
A couple of thoughts. 1. Sadly various 'US no fly lists' are being used by airlines in countries that don't yet have their own list -- e.g. Canada -- in an attempt to reduce liability. Meaning, the implications of this article are greater than some might realize. 2. A key question about no-fly lists is the criteria used to put people on it. Ideally, it should be transparent so, for instance, everyone out there with a criminal record isn't concerned every time they get on a plane that law enforcement officials will descend upon them. Beyond the quota issue, this article points to a series of systemic problems relating to the criteria used to make these lists, which from my reading seem to be: a. arbitrary b. left to individual discretion c. without oversight or review checks and balances d. unappealable, regardless of how flimsy the evidence is. As more and more countries draft their own no-fly lists, such issues are likely to grow in importance and become bigger problems within the international (rather just American) political sphere.
I do find it a bit odd that Air Marshalls can't find at least one suspitious-looking person on a flight over the course of a month.
Why? Just how many terrorists do you think are out there? And of them, how many will be trying to take over a plane? If there were even a handful trying this, then it would be all over the news (as it supports the government agenda). And if someone isn't trying to take over the plane then what on Earth makes them suspicious and worth putting on a watch list? Flying while asian? Reading Noam Chomsky? Not only is the government jumping at shadows, it's now got a quota of how many shadows you have to jump at each month?
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
the system is broken from the top down. the only solution is to format the goverment and reinstall. this image is corrupt.
-.no
Oh... there's a reason for it. They want to piss someone off enough that they go ballistic. When they do get pissed off and attempt some act of revolt, then the watchers can say "See, there are revolutionaries. We need more funding to stop them."
I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
Boy, I'm feeling more secure everyday...Not.
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
i think people are missing the point. there IS NO threat that these air marshalls are supposedly there to protect us from. (this is clearly obvious from tfa and the one linked in this thread.) there may be miscellaneous threats, but they cannot protect us from those any better than pre-air marshall security.
they are there for psychological puposes, so that people who think there is a threat feel safer. people can point to some action that the government is doing. "look, they have air marshalls and no-fly lists."
there is no worldwide terror organzation or network. go to archive.org and download (bbc documentary) the power of nightmares (i wonder how long it'll be up?) i have friends who work for "homeland security" and it's all a sham. too bad it costs us money.
if you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.
Personally, I'm considering the source. The local stations here will do everything they can to sensationalize a story...I don't know why any other networks or affiliates would be any different. (I don't trust the news outlets much, but I trust local television stations FAR less.)
I'm sorry, which bias is this? The bias against putting innocent people on government watchlists to fill a quota?
It's probably posted because people here seem to care about civil rights and, in particular, about how they apply to domestic government surveilance. What's wrong with that?
this whole site slides further and further to the left every day
So? If the concept of civil liberty offends you, then I guess this isn't the site for you. Problem solved.
(I love how 'left' and 'liberal' are dirty words now, say what you want about the Republican party, but their PR is top notch)
sic transit gloria mundi
Gosh, what political agenda is that? The summary only says that Air Marshals are meeting an arbitrary quota by putting innocent people on the secret watch list. You think this is a right-left issue? Are you fucking nuts?
Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts.
It's relevant because the nerds who pay attention to this site are interested in the topic. Look, there are already almost 200 comments talking about it.
And how is simply putting the story on the site transparent bias? Because only lefties would be interested in reading a story about government monitoring? Please.
And on a wider topic, can I just tell you how freaking sick I am of reading jaded comments on every story about this or that is not worth of being posted to Slashdot? If you all don't like the stories posted IGNORE THE STORY AND DON'T READ IT or even START YOUR OWN DAMN SITE AND POST WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT.
Maybe there's some good discussion to be had from it?
It's my understanding that the pilots and crew of a plane are told when an air marshall is on a plane and where he is sitting. If an air marshall wasn't doing his job and was, for example, "drunk and passed out" (as many people have posted as being a reason why quotas are implemented) wouldn't the flight crew report him to his superiors for repremand?
It seems as if there's already a check and balance: the flight crew.
So what's the real reason for the quotas? Budget? Do I even need to ask?
Ironically enough, the Air marshalls are basically ensuring they won't stop any terrorists. The list will become so bloated, cumbersome, invasive and obnoxious that people will stop taking it seriously. The real work of hunting down potential terrorists - that some of the marshalls did - will be drowned out by innocent people who looked at the lazy marshalls cross eyed.
Often, beurocracy cannot sustain its own weight. It expands and expands until it cannot do the purpose for which it was designed. Then it gets axed by a budget cutter, is reincarnated as lightweight version of itself, and expands until... you get the idea. It isn't a viscious cycle so much as a waste of resources and failed programs.
Seriously, here's an idea: take all those government parasites that harass airplane passengers, run eavesdropping programs, make threats to journalists, and violate the constitution in so many other ways, and drop them all in Pakistan with hunting rifles. Sooner or later, a group of them will have to stumble onto Bin Laden's cave. And voila, terrorism is dealt a serious blow, Americans are substantially less annoyed, and taxes can go down because the government is no longer paying a bunch of people to fail at making America safer.
But then somebody would realize that the quota system was stupid. That would defeat the whole purpose.
No, the purpose is not to defeat terrorism. The purpose is to look like you're defeating terrorism.
The federal government IS "the terrorist". The US is under the rule of murderous despots, who got in power by hijacking the vote, bribing and blackmailing high level officials, co-opting the few people necessary to control the bulk of the mass media(propoganda), and brainwashing the gun toters under their control that their *only* duty is to follow the orders of the coup plotters.
The purpose of terrorism is to terrorize. It does not matter if the people being terrorized are "guilty" of anything or not, what matters is that all the citizens OBEY ORDERS WITHOUT QUESTION. You WILL meekly submit to random checkpoints, searches at the airport, having your property seized-whatever they say. You will not "protest" except in designated "zones". And etc, the whole nine yards. check, this is accomplished now, for 99% of the population-all good little herd critters. They have the gun toters terrorized into following all orders, they have the citizenry terrorized into following orders, they have about all it takes it appears.
The second part is, once they get into the mass culling-which all police state dictatorships eventually do, ALL of them, history has shown no exceptions, it's handy to have a list to work off of for the steroid pumped up mouth breathers they send out for the pick ups. If it is 10% or 20% of the population-they don't care, less "useless eaters" for them to manage. More terrorism for the remainder, keeps them even more cowed.
Think I am joking about this? Not in the least...it's going to happen, too. These demons kill people daily to get their way, 24/7/365, what makes people think they will stop or slow down?
It's OVER, the coup plotters won. Whether or not they will hang in for a long time is the only remaining variable now. There is no 'voting" these creatures away, and at the tippy top levels, both Ds and Rs are involved, those little dramas on TV are to keep the plebes amused and thinking that there is somehow a 'government' they have some say in.
... with this sort on thing happening I won't be travelling via the US next time I go to Europe.
I think I'd prefer to go via Japan and Russia now-a-days. Seriously, US citizens, it really _is_ time for a regime change in the White House. The Republicans seem to have taken too many pages out of the Nazi rule books for my liking.