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Microsoft Locking Out Anti-Virus Makers?

twitter writes "Anti-virus makers have more to fear than stonewalling by Microsoft if a report by Agnitum, maker of Outpost Personal Firewall, is right about recent trusted computing changes. All the problems were summarized in a choice Register quote, 'In addressing the potential problem of not being able to install Outpost on new versions of Windows, we have discovered that it is possible to drill past the new security measures introduced by Microsoft - if we use the same techniques used by hackers.'"

135 comments

  1. ORly? by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 3, Informative

    As someone who has written drivers for Windows before I think Microsoft's patch is a step in the right direction. It is simply too easy to spy on the user and hide the driver under the current system. If that means that anti-virus software has to be updated, and has to bug the user with more "are you sure this is OK" boxes ... well tough, sometimes that is the price of security.

    1. Re:ORly? by tyler.willard · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ya RLY. Too easy? At ring 0 *everything* is, and should be, visible/alterable. That's the whole point of ring 0 existing in the first place. There is another concern as well: If Redmond locks out 3rd party security and utility vendors from full ring 0 access they become the only ones able to provide the most powerful utilities and security products. As it stands now, SoftICE has been discontinued and sysinternals has been acquired. I don't particularly relish the idea of having to take MS's word for what's happening down in kernel or having theirs being the only powerful security/utility products availble.

    2. Re:ORly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not just a matter of not having the tools... Trusted Computing hardware allows the running of encrypted code. You'll never know what Microsoft is upto, because your own PC hardware works to stop you.

    3. Re:ORly? by tyler.willard · · Score: 1

      Yes, this is certainly something to be concerned about, but there are a lot of obstacles, some that involve hardware, that don't rely on encrption.

    4. Re:ORly? by staticsage · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only problem is no matter how many "are you sure this is OK" boxes you throw at some people, they will still blindly click Yes...

    5. Re:ORly? by Cliffy03 · · Score: 1

      They click yes until it is tech support trying to get them to click yes. Then they click on everythng but yes.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, Nigel makes plans for you!
    6. Re:ORly? by Traiklin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      and I know first hand how easy it is to.

      I decided to try out vista one time and it installed and ran perfectly fine on my computer, the only drawback to it was EVERYTIME I wanted to open a folder or program a window would pop up asking me if I was sure I wanted to open it (apperantly Microsoft doesn't even trust themselves cause I was opening Windows Media Player 11 when I got the most windows) after about the 20th popup window asking me if I wanted to open a file I knew was ok I just started clicking yes to see how the damn thing worked.

      now, just imagine someone getting to that point when they launch and it's been out for a little while, how many calls will tech support (Dell, Microsoft any company that makes PCs) get from people asking if it's ok to run a microsoft product? how many calls will they get when they accidentally click No to an important option (say their email, they read it wrong and suddenly they no longer can use outlook), how many calls will family members get when their Mother/Father/Uncle/whatever says they don't have a clue if the security warning that microsoft put in place is ok to click Yes or No to when they run WMP, Outlook, IE or any other MS owned programs.

    7. Re:ORly? by BagOBones · · Score: 1

      There is too much going on in Ring 0 as it is.. I am all for MS keeping drivers out of there.. This is where BSOD come from, hardware failure or kernel lvl drivers.

      I spend a week last year tracing the source of a intermittent problem on a new server, turned out that a antivirus products kernel drivers was leaking kernel memory at a slow rate.. After a reboot, depending on how many times a file was accessed it would just cause the systems to stop responding to requests.

      As far as I am concerned only the OS should be at ring 0.

      --
      EA David Gardner -"... but the consumers have proven that actually what they want is fun."
    8. Re:ORly? by twitter · · Score: 1

      I think Microsoft's patch is a step in the right direction. It is simply too easy to spy on the user and hide the driver under the current system.

      Well, it would be great if it were not so easy to circumvent. Typical of M$ "security", this change is just another inconvenience to the legitimate user.

      --

      Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    9. Re:ORly? by Crayon+Kid · · Score: 2, Interesting
      If Redmond locks out 3rd party security and utility vendors from full ring 0 access they become the only ones able to provide the most powerful utilities and security products.
      But how can it be done? From the Agnitum story I for one understood that it's not possible to achieve this.

      Sure, they can actually and fully deny access to low level kernel functions to every piece of software, but in that case how will certain things get done? Some stuff needs access to get it's job done. Obviously not a choice.

      Or, they can just not document the API (which I get the impression is what they're trying to do now), in which case people will reverse engineer the software that uses it and they'll find out how what they need to know. Malware writers and legit software writers alike.

      I'd like a saner alternative, myself. But how can the kernel tell which software is legit and which is not? Should the software present a key? Not really an airtight solution. Should the software ask the user to enter the admin password? Again, can be circumvented and misused.

      So, how can one safely regulate access to a machine's lower functions? Deny it all? Allow it all? What if you want something in between?
      --
      i ate crayons when i was a kid and now i have two braincells and the blue ones taste nicer
    10. Re:ORly? by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      Do tell me how you make Antivirus and Firewalls which arent on ring 0. :P
      They are there because they have to be there.

    11. Re:ORly? by jrockway · · Score: 1

      > I don't particularly relish the idea of having to take MS's word for what's happening down in kernel or having theirs being the only powerful security/utility products availble.

      Just the more reason to ditch unaudited proprietary operating systems, and use something more open. OpenBSD's aproach to security is much better than Windows + 100 (potentially buggy) commercial "security" apps. And it's free.

      --
      My other car is first.
    12. Re:ORly? by cheater512 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And the more boxes you throw at them the less likely they are to read it.

      /me makes a automatic 'Yes' clicker and sells it for $10.

    13. Re:ORly? by kosmosik · · Score: 1

      > Or, they can just not document the API (which I get the impression is
      > what they're trying to do now), in which case people will reverse engineer
      > the software that uses it and they'll find out how what they need to know.
      > Malware writers and legit software writers alike.

      Legit software writers *cannot* reverse engineer. I think that in USA under the DMCA it is prohibited to overcome secuity measures by reverse engeenering. FIXME

    14. Re:ORly? by Cylix · · Score: 1

      A conversation overheard between Ring0 and MSFT

      "I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you... a world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world... where anything is possible. Where we go from here is a choice I leave to you."

      Ok, sounded cooler in my head... it's still moderately funny though :P

      --
      "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
    15. Re:ORly? by kassemi · · Score: 1

      To keep bots from utilizing forms on my web pages I use a captcha. Similarly, to prevent mindless clicking of the "Yes" button, maybe there should be a captcha. For more dangerous tasks, force the user to demonstrate knowledge of what they're about to do by asking them a question about it. " You're about to run a script you downloaded from the internet as root. What is the root account? a) A plant that grows in southern brazil. b) An account at the IB where my taxes are calculated. c) A user profile that allows viruses and trojans and shit to do anything they fucking want. Please enter the answer: ______ " Heh. I could have fun writing that. People would figure it out without knowing anything about it, but at least they'd learn something.

      --
      What the hell's a "gewie?"
    16. Re:ORly? by supabeast! · · Score: 1

      "'If Redmond locks out 3rd party security and utility vendors from full ring 0 access they become the only ones able to provide the most powerful utilities and security products.'

      "But how can it be done? From the Agnitum story I for one understood that it's not possible to achieve this."

      DRM. Once the CPU vendor and OS vendor are the only people with total control over computers, the computer s will only do what said vendors allow them to. Or at least that's the way they think it should be.

    17. Re:ORly? by Fordiman · · Score: 1

      *sigh*

      The user is supposed to know what is legit and what is not.

      Honestly, there are a number of people out there who simply should not be using computers - or at the very least, not running with Administrative privelidges. This is not an elitist thing. This is a training and intuition thing.

      I mean, phishing sites pretty much THRIVE on people not checking the URL in a link - something that just comes naturally to those aware of the issue. Viruses are spread not by using insecure software, but by opening programs from nontrusted sources.

      The computer should not have to know this shit. The user should.

      --
      110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
    18. Re:ORly? by werewolf1031 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Typical of M$ "security", this change is just another inconvenience to the legitimate user.
      This isn't about inconveniencing the legitimate user. It's about inconveniencing the legitimate developer. The black-hat hackers will still get in once they figure out ways around this, and since the legit devs will be locked out by no-reverse-engineering laws, the legit users will be forced to rely on MS and only MS for security. It's another win for MS monopolization in the guise of "enhanced security".
    19. Re:ORly? by Fordiman · · Score: 1

      We can and do.

      At least, we can 'clean room' reveng.

      You do it with two people. One pokes around and takes notes. The other implements based on the notes. The DMCA doesn't prevent this as long as there is a non-infringing use of the protection bypass (i.e., writing drivers)

      --
      110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
    20. Re:ORly? by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Did you even READ the article?

      This is not in the least about more "are you sure this is OK" boxes, as you suggest. No amout of "are you sure this is OK" boxes makes any difference. Instead of popping up an "are you sure this is OK" box, Microsoft simply forces Windows to BlueScreen and die.

      This is not about "anti-virus software has to be updated", as you suggest. Microsoft has completely locked out any reasonable means of updating the security software. The article says that the only avilable route for security software to attempt to implement the required functionality would be to use malware tactics and deliberately defeat all of the Windows security measures, and to do so in a way that will cause the system to die the moment you download a Microsoft critical system security fix and it patches the kernal.

      The fundamental problem here is that Microsoft is on a Trusted Computing DRM crusade trying to secure the system against the owner rather than for the owner.

      You're right that this should be a case of an "are you sure this is OK" box. In fact to implement a strong-for-the-owner security system this should even require the owner to enter a special security code.

      The system should enforce very strong security on certain things, but it should never be designed to go to war against the owner to prohibit him from making changes that he really does want to make. Security must always be security for the owner and never security against the owner. When it's designed against the owner, that's not security - that's just malicious.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    21. Re:ORly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  2. Microsoft is just isolating itself by The+Real+Toad+King · · Score: 3, Insightful

    By making its kernel and software more closed, they're just locking out new developers and applications. If they keep this up, Windows may only be able to run Microsoft Software.

    1. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by DoraLives · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If they keep this up, Windows may only be able to run Microsoft Software.

      This is precisely what they're looking to do, and it would appear as if their short-term vision has completely blinded them to the long-term consequences of what they're doing. I wish them all the success in the world with it.

      --
      Is it fascism yet?
    2. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      They're not locking anybody out. It's silly to think that developers should have full access to every single internal structure or API call. It's called "bad design principle". It means they can't change things internally.

      The real problem may just be limitations in the API they _ARE_ providing. That's fine, work with them on it. Don't whine that their internal structures and kernel level calls are changing - you are NOT supposed to use those anyway.

    3. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by tyler.willard · · Score: 1

      It is *not* a bad design principle. By their nature advanced utility and security products need to have total access. Malware authors aren't going to limit themselves to the official apis. Unless of course you are of the opinion that they will make this absolutely bulletproof and there won't be any exploits to worry about....

    4. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by kripkenstein · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They're not locking anybody out. It's silly to think that developers should have full access to every single internal structure or API call.

      Fair enough. But, consider this: do you really believe that developers of Microsoft security products (firewall, antispyware, OneCare, etc.) will NOT have access to whatever API they ask for? That if they need access to one, a technical solution will not be devised?

    5. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by calciphus · · Score: 1

      Locking out all but trusted software and hardware (maybe), you claim? Egads, this sounds a whole lot like the Apple plan: "If they HAVE to buy everything from us, we'll be rich." MS would never lock out competition. As [pieterh] pointed out (though they were trying to insult MS at the time), encouraging others to dump billions into development has saved MS money in the long run, plus they reap the rewards. If the platform is stronger, more people will buy it, write for it, etc. The user experience is greatly improved by 3rd party software. Try and have one company get everything right, and you get the iLife Suite of Awfulness. But then again, MS can't really ever close a software platform. They'd be brought up on anti-trust lawsuits, AGAIN. Remember: You can't bundle a media player with your media platform (unless you're Apple) and you can't bundle a browser with your internet-connected platform (unless you're Apple).

    6. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by CodeBuster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ok, fair enough, but to what extent is Microsoft liable if your attempted hacking, even if your purpose is noble, results in damage to the kernel? If you use a product or modify that product in a way that the manufacturer never intended then how can you say that it is the fault of the manufacturer that your modifications, hacking, or misuse cause the product to fail? The malware writers will of course do what they want and the anti-virus writers have made it their business to try and stop them. However, the anti-virus writers must accept responsibility for their own products even though they don't fully control the underlying system...that was part of the risk they took when they got into the business.

    7. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by DrScott · · Score: 3, Informative

      Apple may be bundling software, but the difference is that the user is _totally free_ to use competitor's software. I use other browsers, other word processors, and other multimedia software than those supplied by Apple alongside their products. Competitor's software is not crippled. Yet you have no problems defending Microsoft trying to make everybody use only their software. Microsoft was _convicted_ of anti-trust violations in the US and Europe (and is being investigated in other regions too) not because they bundled products, but because they consistently tried to do so in unethicals way that drove competitors out of business.

    8. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      And that would make Microsoft rather happy. Being able to run ONLY microsoft, and then get useres on the 'lease plan' ( remember their 'free PC' concept? ) to insure a perputual income.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    9. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by tyler.willard · · Score: 1

      They aren't liable. This has been going on forever. I'll grant that they do get bad PR. E.G., most BSODs (fatal exception in ring 0) tend to come from third party drivers but MS gets gigged for it. As far as taking a risk "by getting into the business", this is irrelevant. Again, utility and security products are a special case in software. For years, Redmond has worked closely to assist these companies with whatever kernel hackery was needed. Now they're getting into the game themselves and restricting what the vendors can do. They'll find a way around the restrictions, but being heavy handed with the security community is an arrogant move.

    10. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by calciphus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Microsoft never made it difficult / impossible to install a 3rd party media player on any system they've ever made. Nor did they do that with a browser. That's the line fed by money-grubbing anti-trust lawyers to uninformed users.

      The primary argument the ACTUAL anti-trust lawsuit was based on was that Microsoft was leveraging the dominance of one product to the advantage of the other, giving it an "unfair competative advantage". The fact that Windows Media Player came pre-installed made paying for a product like Real Networks's RealPlayer (a particualry crappy piece of software, I might add) very unlikely for the average user. When WMP moved from being just a basic media player to including things like playlists, internet streaming (before it was called 'podcasting') and visualizers, it became a competitor for programs like WinAmp and RealPlayer. Anti-trust lawyers argued somewhat successfully that this amounted to Microsoft unfairly leveraging market dominance and discouraging competition.

      Now, YOU have no problem arguing that Apple is somehow above this. Let's look at the iPod: Clearly the market leader in mobile media players, they REQUIRE you to install iTunes to load music onto it. They even go so far as to SUE other companies that make software that can download to the iPod (see: RealNetworks, WinAmp iPod plugin, etc). It isn't even for DRM stuff. Just transfering unencrypted files to and from an iPod constitutes a crime (according to Apple legal) if you aren't using iTunes. //technically// using the Windows Explorer to do so is a violation of the "terms and agreements" you apparently agree to when you buy an iPod.

      So get off your high horse, Mac Zealot. All that's white and cheap plastic isn't gold.

    11. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by twiddlingbits · · Score: 1

      If they do that then we are back to the same issues that got them in trouble with IE. AND they would be violating the Anti-Trust settlement with the DOJ. Only MS having the ability to write software that operates at the highest privelege level is a monopolistic practice. Then again it may force more people to Linux and the *NIXs of the world which could be good. Don't give me the typical stupid /. reply of there being a Republican in the White House and thus it doesn't matter what M$ does. It matters a great deal, as there are a lot of very important and secure applications that run under Windows, and we all know how good M$ security is in their software. I surely don't want the same team that brought me the security holes being the only ones able to fix the holes (assuming they decide they are in fact holes and just not an imginary hole).

    12. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excuse me? I think Linus and the Linux community would disagree with that. Open Source would be the BETTER option then atleast the problems in the OS could get fixed before pumping out an already BROKEN one. (YES I mean Vista, it's broken.) I'm tired of being a paying Beta-Tester for MicroSoft.

    13. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by 70Bang · · Score: 1



      As I've said before, Microsoft's biggest resources are Huey, Dewey and Louie (Marketing, PR, and Sales).

      They have two tasks before them right now: Vista. That seems like one, but it's two. First, there's the standard upgrades and new machine purchased as well as any corporate issues. Secondly, and far more importantly, they're going to try and pry corporations from sitting pat. There's a lot of corporate licenses which are still running Win2K, both server and terminal, Visual Studio 6 (+SP6), SQL 2000, etc. The number of surprises are minimal, the cost inconsequential; in essence, their TCO is just about as inexpensive as it can be.

      In order to upgrade from that position, they'd have to pay for a lot of upgrades - hardware, software, people, general support, yadda yadda.

      Back to point.

      Microsoft has tried this before: When DOS was the base and Windows was the "OS/2" (tongue in cheek) running on OS/2, MS-DOS, IBM-DOS, etc. There were allegations against Microsoft because Windows would only run on MS-DOS. Windows wouldn't run on any other DOS executables and those with problems were directed to purchase Windows, then call back if they had problems after that. That gave them some very short call-times for that group of supporters. Think of the old joke re: "Infinite Storeage" which amounted to "Write Only DASD". If you tried to read from it, smoke and problems would be make to the support and be queried: "You didn't read from it, did you?"."Oh,no. You can't do that. It's Write Only."

      If you go back through the court documentation, the issue of what GUI would run upon which DOS product. The discussion generally went along the lines of, "Only if you can do without errors - there cannot be any errors which are produced because of the incompatibility." IFF (for the non-math people, IFF means "If and only if")


    14. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by grcumb · · Score: 4, Interesting
      "It's silly to think that developers should have full access to every single internal structure or API call. It's called "bad design principle". It means they can't change things internally."

      WTF? I understand what you're getting at, but please think about what you've just written for a second.

      It's not at all silly to give developers full access to your system internals, as long as you're clear about the repercussions of using them. In fact, there's a whole bunch of developers using this stuff called FOSS, which is based entirely on this principle.

      I know, I know; your point is that if developers depend on a certain implementation, then the vendor is forced to continue supporting it forever, which, according to your reasoning, leaves them with no further room to grow or innovate. Unfortunately, that perspective is just bollocks. FOSS developers deal with this every day, and they've found a perfectly workable process:

      Supported APIs are marked as such. Deprecated APIs are marked, too, with the clear warning that past this version, you're on your own. Unsupported interactions with the internals are marked - not fenced, but simply labled Here Be Dragons. You're welcome to venture there if you want, but don't go asking for help if something goes wrong. Most developers benefit from a better understanding of how the whole system works, and can in fact suggest or offer improvements in upstream functionality as well as better implementing their own.

      I'd be fascinated to know why you think that things are somehow different for Microsoft than they are for IBM or Novell.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    15. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by Crayon+Kid · · Score: 1
      Only MS having the ability to write software that operates at the highest privelege level is a monopolistic practice.
      I never quite understood why they can't be allowed to do whatever they want with their own software. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Very simple.

      If I, John Doe, write a program right now and warn potential users that upon running it will find and delete competition software, what would happen? People either wouldn't install it, or install it knowing what will happen. Very simple.

      But because Microsoft is already big and Windows is all over the place and people are already using it, they can't be allowed to do this. That about sums it up?
      --
      i ate crayons when i was a kid and now i have two braincells and the blue ones taste nicer
    16. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by twiddlingbits · · Score: 1

      But because Microsoft is already big and Windows is all over the place and people are already using it, they can't be allowed to do this. That about sums it up? No, because they are under DOJ orders to allow other folks software to INTEROPERATE. What they are doing will make software from folks like Anti-Virus and Spyware unable to do that, just like back in the days ( you ARE old enough to recall the 1990's right?) of the Netscape vs IE issues. When you hold an incredibly dominating position in the market the law only allows you to do certain things, things that allow you to keep and build your market position by mechanisms that "lock-out" others is definately not allowed. Read up on Anti-Trust laws before running off about it.

    17. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by cob666 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      do you really believe that developers of Microsoft security products (firewall, antispyware, OneCare, etc.) will NOT have access to whatever API they ask for? That if they need access to one, a technical solution will not be devised?
      I have a friend that was working on the transactional file system for Vista and I asked him a similar question regarding undocumented APIs. Hi answer was two-fold.
      Part 1 of his answer was that normally if a developer requires access to a system process that is not currently exposed via an API then he must request that interface from the development team responsible for that particular system process. This is normally the long way to get something done as this new interface must be documented.
      Part 2 of his answer was that MOST undocumented APIs in Windows are actually APIs that were never intended to be included in the released product. A common way for an undocumented API to make it to release would be that a developer requires access to a system process for testing purposes so they have an alternate way to access that process. The interface is designed with the full intention of removing it. Application Developer B finds out about this new interface and actually uses it for the next release of Media Player (or any other Windows application). When the time comes to remove the interface, Developer B informs the group that the interface is being used in a production application and can't be removed.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
    18. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by ThePengwin · · Score: 1

      One more step towards world domination

    19. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It should be easy enough to determine if WindowsDefender/OneCare are using private hooks into the system. And if they did the resulting antitrust lawsuit should be an open and shut case. Microsoft isn't that stupid.

    20. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1
      OK, I agree with your assessment. This developer used an interface that has changed. Per your argument, wtf are they complaining about then?

      This company is on their own, but they expect Microsoft to continue supporting this older interface. There's some kind of logical disconnect here, I think.

    21. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1
      It's silly to think that developers should have full access to every single internal structure or API call.

      "Tenet 6. APIs. ...Going forward, Microsoft will ensure that all the interfaces within Windows called by any other Microsoft product, such as the Microsoft Office system or Windows Live(TM), will be disclosed for use by the developer community generally."
      http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/newsroom/winxp/ windowsprinciples.mspx

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    22. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by kripkenstein · · Score: 1

      It should be easy enough to determine if WindowsDefender/OneCare are using private hooks into the system. And if they did the resulting antitrust lawsuit should be an open and shut case. Microsoft isn't that stupid.

      It can be more subtle than that. They can make public the APIs that their developers need, and ignore requests from other vendors ("because of security reasons").

    23. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by kripkenstein · · Score: 1

      By making its kernel and software more closed, they're just locking out new developers and applications. If they keep this up, Windows may only be able to run Microsoft Software.

      Whereas now, Windows can run all sorts of software. For example, you can run all sorts of office software - MS Office, and... umm, well, how about web browsers, there is IE, and some other thing with 10%... multimedia-wise, you can run WMP, or... well, there must be something I'm forgetting.

      Seriously, though: this is how Microsoft works. They take over every area that seems important to them. Really, programming for Windows is near-suicidal; Wordperfect are gone, dittoe Netscape, and very soon, the security companies will be a thing of the past. In a few years I expect we will see a 90%+ market share for OneCare. Sometimes I wonder why software firms develop for Windows, given the risk.

    24. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "They're not locking anybody out. It's silly to think that developers should have full access to every single internal structure or API call. It's called "bad design principle". It means they can't change things internally."

      Unless of course your code is INTENDED to function as part of the internal structure. That is why everyone should have access to every internal structure and API call. There is no reason that microsoft should be the only ones able to add filesystems to windows for instance. Or to hack on memory management. Or to write software that audits the low level behavior of microsoft programs that ARE written utilizing knowledge of hidden API functions.

    25. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by verbal · · Score: 1

      Not allowing kernel-level calls is an attempt to make the OS more stable. If MS allows vendors to create possible blue screens, MS will get the bad rep, not the vendors. It's their good right to protect their name...

    26. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Non sequitur. Do you think Windows Office and Windows live install kernel hooks? This is unrelated to the topic at hand, please try to keep up.

    27. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1
      Of course there's a reason - they can all break when Microsoft makes changes. That's the reason they're called 'API', genius. They're intended to be used by application programmers. Internal calls are subject to change at any time.

      Oh, wait. That's exactly what happened. Vendor used undocumented, unsupported interfaces which got changed.

      So either your argument is that Microsoft can't change its OS, or your argument doesn't exist. Which is it?

    28. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1
      This is unrelated to the topic at hand, please try to keep up.

      Headline:

      Microsoft Locking Out Anti-Virus Makers?
      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    29. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by Magada · · Score: 1

      Erm... In what way do Apple's actions constitute an attempt to leverage an existing monopoly in order to gain a new one in a different market? Apple doesn't have a stranglehold on the OS market, now has it? This is just an honest-to-god attempt from Apple to corner the digital music market. Kudos if they succeed, boo and an antimonopoly lawsuit on their houses if they subsequently try to use that monopoly to choke, say, the rest of the entertainment industry. That's the state of US law, buddy... IMNSHO, monopolies should be illegal but that's a different issue.
      Whoever modded you insightful is a troll.

      --
      Something bad is coming when people are suddenly anxious to tell the truth.
    30. Re:Microsoft is just isolating itself by calciphus · · Score: 1

      Apple's attempt is to leverage an existing monopoly IN THE PORTABLE MUSIC PLAYER INDUSTRY (where their market share numbers are within a few percent of MS's OS numbers) to promote another one - their Music Store (not the OS->mp3 player...read the whole post next time). Couple that with anti-competative, sometimes legally-questionable gaurding of their DRM scheme to lock users to their platform, software, and product line and you have a Monopolistic Exploitation. It'd be like if AT&T told you that you could only plug AT&T phones into their phone jacks...[check your MaBell history].

      And why should monopolies be illegal? Most /. readers have the good sense to understand that increased government oversight isn't really good for anyone but the overseers and their friends. Effective monopolies happen because the marketplace either won't support exclusive competition (like in OS-land) or because there has yet to be a viable alternative. Not because the big-bad-robber-barron-executive is profiting off the misery of all those below him, but because the benefits of working WITH them outweigh the costs of it.

      "This is just an honest-to-god attempt from Apple to corner the digital music market. Kudos if they succeed, boo and an antimonopoly lawsuit on their houses if they subsequently try to use that monopoly to choke, say, the rest of the entertainment industry."
      And you're against monopolies huh? Hi Pot, I'm Kettle. By restricting their DRM scheme, Apple locks users into their software / hardware offering. They are harming the users by providing a crippled product that can only be used as a part of their package, and not by necessity but by design. Ask the average iTunes user if they think the music the BOUGHT and PAID FOR can be played on another mp3 player if they choose to, and you'll find that most think it can. But, alas, that's not the case. MS "Plays For Sure" has been licensed to over 300 different device manufacturers, and yet is still listed by the RIAA as an acceptable method of file protection. Apple FairPlay has never been licensed. When government laws forced them to license to competitors (for anti-trust reason) Apple Legal said "I shit on you and your legal system, France". Phenomonal.

      Apple created a pretty good music player. It was quick and had a lot of storage like the Creative products before it. It's teired file storage sytem helped you quickly find music - like the Creative products before it (patent violation!). To get people hooked, at first you could put anything on it. You could even just drag-and-drop files into the architecture! The problem is that once it got popular enough, they locked down the system so that you can only use THEIR music. THEIR software. THEIR online store. THEIR licenses. THEIR record labels. And God help you if you ever decide you want to switch AWAY from their system. Making the "legal" music purchases only work with their products effectively increases the cost of adopting an alternative, helping to maintain their monopoly (antitrust!). $400 player stopped working after 18mo, but you have $500 worth of music (you good little consumer, you)? That means a new player from Apple costs you $400, but a new player from Creative costs $850 - $350 for the player and $500 to replace all the music you already bought and now sits useless on your hard drive. No thanks, Apple. I refuse to be plugged into the Matrix by my little white headphones.

      And what's with making a personal attack at the tail end of a post? That's how you spot the weaker side of the argument everytime. Can't argue the points, argue the person? Whoever modded me "insightful" probably recognized that I have VALID and WELL RESEARCHED points to make, even if they don't agree with them. Or maybe they just missed hitting the "flaimbait" button and I got lucky this time.

  3. Just the opposite by Vampyre_Dark · · Score: 5, Funny

    Microsoft has actually been bending over the backwards to help the anti-virus companies properly integrate their products into the new windows Vista. The problem comes from miscommunication. Billy is using his new speech-to-text program for all correspondece.

    1. Re:Just the opposite by JohnWasser · · Score: 1

      I can see the letter now: "you just have to aunt the aunt function and aunt the aunt aunt period new paragraph no delete that select all dammit."

  4. Midget stoners.... by Gno · · Score: 0

    I think we should make a couple anti-virus programs with personalities like midget stoners,
    Dude, like, the computer went that way.... I think...
    Or mabye Microsoft should invent an all-in-one package to secure their pcs, instead of me installing a million diffrent MS products.... nah, thats a stupid idea.

    --
    It's not -1 Flamebait! It's +5 Funny. You just didn't get the joke...
  5. Microsoft's Principles? by pieterh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So how does this fit with Microsoft's 12 Windows Principles?

    Oh hang on, nowhere in those principles does it mention anything about giving competitors open access to Windows systems. Maybe this one:

    "Microsoft is committed to designing and licensing Windows (and all the parts of the Windows platform) on terms that create and preserve opportunities for application developers and Web site creators to build innovative products on the Windows platform -- including products that directly compete with Microsoft's own products."

    Translation: We love products that compete with us, so long as they run on Windows, because it just means you're doing the R&D work for us. Hey, that's how we got to be so large, by taking ideas from other people, so why stop now?

    1. Re:Microsoft's Principles? by crashelite · · Score: 0

      u forgot... by the way can we buy you out in a couple of years and then sell your product with a MS logo on it and mess it up to the point it barly runs....(refering to Virtual PC)

      --
      (yes i know i suck at spelling fell free to correct my grammar and/or spellin i dont care, im still not going to change
  6. Better Summary by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "Our software doesn't work, we're pissed."

    They are basically saying that they want the existing weak kernel model to continue to be supported because at least it allows them to do things they way they have been for a long time. This is, of course, stupid. It's like my locksmith not wanting me to get a new door because his equipment won't work with it, even if the new door theoretically provides the basis for better security long-term.

    I'm not saying the new intercept model is great, I'm saying the answer isn't "leave it like it was". Instead of whining, why don't they engage Microsoft and figure out what exactly they need. Regardless of what your average wanker things, Microsoft will NOT be in a good situation if Vista turns out to be a dud security-wise. They want it to work.

    1. Re:Better Summary by aitan · · Score: 1

      Microsoft should be the one contacting the main antivirus companies around to make sure that their products work without problems with the new version of Windows as soon as it hits the stores.

      Despiste all the improvements about user security, firewall etc... I don't think that any serious company will try to sell a new PC with Vista and no antivirus at all.

    2. Re:Better Summary by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Microsoft should be the one contacting the main antivirus companies around to make sure that their products work without problems with the new version of Windows as soon as it hits the stores.

      An interesting sentiment, but look at it from the perspective of Microsoft. They have built a system which they are bound to support, but for which they have not provided certain features that may be needed by certain types of software, namely kernel hooks and the like, because these types of "features" are available to the root kit and virus creators just as much as they are, or could be, available to the anti-virus vendors who are trying to stop them. This results in third party vendors attempting to hack into the kernel to get the functionality they need and whether their intentions are good or bad it can still result in an unstable, wrecked, or compromised system. Should Microsoft have to support these vendors when it was never intended that these types of features would be available?

      To put it another way, consider the automobile manufacturers. If I modify or replace the controller chips in my engine to alter the spark advance, fuel/air mixture, injector pressure, etc for whatever reason then I automatically void any warranty that may have been in effect from the manufacturer. If I blow my engine because of these modifications then that is my fault. How can the manufacturer warranty any unknown hacks that I may attempt on my engine? They can't and they don't. So to what extent should Microsoft be responsible for the actions of third party software vendors? It's a question worth asking.

    3. Re:Better Summary by Keeper · · Score: 1

      I stopped reading the article after these morons complained that that can't use a 32bit function pointer to 32bit code to hook kernel calls in 64bit Windows...

    4. Re:Better Summary by tyler.willard · · Score: 1

      No, it's not that simple. They're pissed because MS is dictating how the should design their products. Furthermore, they're doing it with an attitude of "yeah, you used to do this directly, but now you'll have to trust us to give it to you....maybe.". You can still have a robust kernel and have third parties able to interract with and extend it, take Linux or BSD for example.

    5. Re:Better Summary by Steendor · · Score: 1

      Microsoft shouldn't make it a priority to contact anybody regarding these issues. Software vendors are responsible for whether or not their programs work properly. If they need Windows to have certain capabilities that it doesn't appear to, then they need to make contact with Microsoft. At that point, Microsoft should either explain how such a thing can be done, or explain why such a thing shouldn't be done, or make it possible.

    6. Re:Better Summary by Alchemar · · Score: 1

      No, it is a lot more like the locksmith telling you to get a new door, one that you can only get keys from him, because it has better security, and it looks pretty.

  7. Microsoft should just fix their software by cyber_rigger · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    IMO Microsoft has a lot of gall to charge people to fix the problem that they created in the first place.

  8. In other news, buggy whip manufacturers upset by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    that the new Ford Popular has no provision for horse harnesses or whip storage facilities

  9. Fark for the news, Slashdot for the comments! by pieterh · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    No-one comes here for the news! Not only is it always a day or two late, we often recycle it just for fun, and then make 'slashbacks' on it one more time just to annoy the hell out of people like you.

    People come here for the comments. Like this comment.

    Actually there's a story about this comment. A guy sold me a whole pack of comments, telling me they were cool and the latest fashion. But when I took them home they started making all kinds of noise, and annoying the neighbours. So I tried to flush one down the toilet but it just got stuck and the toilet overflowed, so I had a living room full of noisy, wet, and smelly comments, which really annoyed the neighbours. I tried burning the comments in a barbeque but they didn't really catch, but started smoking, so I found myself with a whole house full of smoking, smelly, wet, noisy comments. Luckily, some of my friends had mod points, so we caught the comments and modded them down to -1 insane, which made them a lot madder, but at least no-one could see them any more. I was left with a single comment, slightly used, but after I dried it in the microwave and it passed the lameness filters, I posted it here.

    There are no old stories, only old comments.

    1. Re:Fark for the news, Slashdot for the comments! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That comment negates its premise.

    2. Re:Fark for the news, Slashdot for the comments! by cli_rules! · · Score: 2, Funny
      No-one comes here for the news! Not only is it always a day or two late, we often recycle it just for fun, and then make 'slashbacks' on it one more time just to annoy the hell out of people like you.
      Agreed. We come here for the wit.
    3. Re:Fark for the news, Slashdot for the comments! by Dadoo · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Oh, be nice. It only just showed up on Digg 16 hours ago. :-)

      --
      Sit, Ubuntu, sit. Good dog.
  10. They Started With Device Drivers by LaNMaN2000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Mirosoft started treating device driver that were not 'certified' for Windows XP differently in the installation process. the certification process is expensive and I have had numerous drivers that generated warning prompts because the manufacturers did not pay the Microsoft tax. I had a feeling that it would only be a matter of time before Microsoft created its own 'digital signature' like process for certifying system or application software.

    --

    ByteMyCode.com: A Web 2.0 code sharing community.
    1. Re:They Started With Device Drivers by gnuman99 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It is called "Designed for Windows" program. Yes, applications have to be signed. And yes, you have to send a copy to MS so they can verify if you follow guidelines when they get 1000s of core dumps from your application. Or complaints about spyware and crap.

      http://www.microsoft.com/winlogo/default.mspx

      Yes, it costs money because you have to buy a digical certificate from Verisign. And send the software on a CD to MS, so a postage stamp there too.

      And yes, MS will probably start treating software from unknown vendors differently than those that have registered. But afterall, how can you blame them with all the spyware screensavers and other crap.

      We already see digital signatures in Linux like Debian. Untrusted repositories get flagged as "WARNING!! Untrusted source. WARNING!!". Microsoft should be doing the same to protect its user base.

    2. Re:They Started With Device Drivers by bogado · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If the user can choose on who he trusts, then it is okay. In my fedora computer I can easily install install a new source to my software and say that all packages signed by this source is okay to go in. I can also de-install a default source if they show that they are not trustworthy.

      If the windows user has the same set of choices, then it is okay, but if MS is the only one who can bless application to install or run without warnings in the windows plataform and there is nothing I joe user can do to change this, then I believe it is a problem.

      Just imagine if MS will give its blessing to all the open source software that is available now for windows. The answer is no, and the author will probably naver even ask for such bless for the simple fact the it will cost money. Now if the windows user could just say to his system that the software package with the signature of that John Doe who happen to signs all kinds of open source software and distributes them in his site, then it is fine. Just like I can install software from Livna that packages software that redhat simply don't want, and will never do, to distribute due to legal problems.

      --
      []'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins

      ^[:wq

    3. Re:They Started With Device Drivers by lseltzer · · Score: 1

      In fact in Win64 from Vista on up, unsigned kernel-level code cannot be installed. You need to use a not-cheap signature from a trusted authority.

      This is one of the holes in the Agnitum Whine Paper - they ignore the fact that the code they say could easily hack past the patching would have to be signed, which presents serious problems for a hacker.

  11. One question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where the F*** is the DOJ?

  12. cry me a river by r00t · · Score: 4, Funny

    Binary patching a kernel is just plain wrong. It's an unstable hack.

    You're supposed to patch the kernel source and recompile. Oh...

    1. Re:cry me a river by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Funny

      If you apply an unstable hack to an unstable hack, is the result stable?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:cry me a river by Korgan · · Score: 1

      Double negative, so the answer must be Yes! :-)

  13. Got it backwards by texaport · · Score: 1
    Simply by unleashing Vista on consumers, Microsoft created a two billion dollar software industry to secure that product.

    If AV makers can keep 60% of that total among themselves, then their own collective piece of the pie is sufficient, and they can let their marketing departments fight the other AV marketing departments for marketshare.

    Compare 5 boxes of antivirus software at Wal-Mart these days, and you see identical packaging. These companies are either used to being told what to do, or else lack originality and just copy each other at every turn.

  14. Microsoft can barely keep up with patching IE... by TheNoxx · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How exactly are they going to keep up with all of the new viruses/trojans/etc released for Vista? I know it's supposed to be "so goddamn secure", but nothing's foolproof, let alone a silly little MS product.

    I dread to think how bad the current state of spyware/adware and malicious code would be if MS made themselves the end-all for anti-virus protection in XP. What a monumental fuckup Vista will be.

    --
    Ex nihilo nihil fit.
  15. Perhaps a good thing! by Jerry+Coffin · · Score: 1
    While this will almost certainly be a complete flop in terms of preventing malware from patching the kernel, it may still be a good thing for people's security.

    By far the best thing that could happen to the security of Windows would be if everybody forgot the personal firewalls, Norton Virus, etc., and used external boxes for these purposes. By the time anything running inside of Windows has a chance to try to do the job, it's too late. Windows is extremely large and complex, with myriad routes from almost any place to any other. Once malicious code is on the machine, it's too late to be at all certain you can prevent it from doing its dirty work.

    --
    The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
  16. This is a bogus complaint. by Dogun · · Score: 2, Informative

    You can do your antivirus activites just fine using supported methods and interfaces, and it doesn't require patching kernel code.

    Filesystem filter driver. Possibly some other filter drivers. Cleaning service. Low-privilege interface. That's all you need.

  17. Making headlines four years from now... by Sixtyten · · Score: 2, Funny

    Microsoft's New OS to Run Exclusively Microsoft Products

    October 28, 2010

    REDMOND, Wash. — Microsoft has just made a last-minute change in plans for it's newest operating system, Windows Vista.

    The operating system, scheduled for release this December, will now only run Microsoft products, according to CEO Steve Ballmer.

    "This is a very exciting time for us all," announced Ballmer. "For years, end-users have been forced to choose between products by third party developers and Microsoft. Now, they won't have to," he explained.

    Ballmer also claims that the new operating system will feature cutting-edge security.

    "Because the system will only run Microsoft products, you will continue to see the stability and security you expect of Microsoft," he continued. "And with the new Privacy Protection Advantage software, you can be assured your copy of Windows is genuine, because otherwise all of your hard drives would be erased and appropriate authorities will be dispatched. You couldn't possibly be able to use this system if it wasn't."

    Microsoft also recently announced it's new Quality Assurance Software, which is bundled with Windows Vista and is now a required Windows XP update.

    "It searches your hard drives for foreign operating systems and deletes them immediately to assure that all of your software on your machine is of uniformly good quality. It also will automatically reinstall Windows on all of your hard drives in case you get tempted and decide to try any lesser operating systems," Ballmer noted.

  18. Old Arguments: Users vs the Monopoly by buckhead_buddy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While Linux, BSD, and (past) OSX developers are used to an open kernel, Microsoft has a long tradition of security through obscurity. Microsoft has also not had a problem with rolling over competitors and even collaborators with a lock-out technology when they feel they are in a position to make more money. Those arguments are common and they won't even make a blip on the conciousness of most people.

    What would really get Microsoft to pull it's greedy hands out of making "security services" the next extension of its monopoly powers? I think it would be when the Ralph Naders, and liability lawyers take Microsoft becoming the sole provider as admission of making a product with a faulty design and trying to profit from it.

    If you want to make Microsoft open it's doors and keep it's hands off the security market, then you need to make noise about this new tactic as being a tacit admission of faulty products and trying to profit from supplying the broken product and the fixes. Perhaps then, Microsoft might be eager to open the kimono for third party or independent review.

  19. Happens every time they change something by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Prrogrammers are lazy, that's just how it goes. I remember all the Strum und Drang over Windows 2000 and it's new audio model. Basically, MS did a revamp of how audio was handled in 2000. It's a much better model. However it was different from what the pro audio companies were used to so they cryed about it. I had a $600 10-channel pro card at the time. When 2k came out, I wanted to switch. However they had no 2k drivers, you had to install the NT drivers which did work, but were a pain in the ass. They said "There will never be Windows 2000 drivers, 2000 is unsuited to audio."

    What they were worked up about was the kernel mixer, a subsystem that introduces 30ms of latency to audio. Now of ocurse this isn't a problem, first because the drivers are aware of this and do time compensation so it only matters for live sound-on-sound recording (meaning you are playing something that a musician is listening to and recording what they are doing) and you can bupass teh kernel mixer anyhow.

    Well finally they figured that out (it's in the documentation for the new driver model) and they released a driver... That only supported 2 channels of the 10 on the card. They claimed that the new driver model didn't support more than 2 channels on a card. I e-mailed MS about this and I think they were sufficiently supprised by the stupidity of the question that they responded. they pointed out that not only could they enumerate the device as multiple 2-channel devices (as you had to do in Win98 and NT since they only supported 2 channels) but WDM could handle real multi-channel devices as well.

    Some e-mails back and forth with the company and finally they came out with a functioning WDM driver for their card. These days, their cards have ONLY WDM drivers available, they don't support 98 or NT anymore. However it was like pulling teeth to get them to learn the new method of doing things. Not because it was worse, it's not, but because they just wanted to keep doing things how they had in the past.

    I'm sure that's basically what this is. MS has changed the way things work, if it's better or not one can debate, but it's not to screw the AV companies over. They are just being whiny because they don't want to have to change the way they do things.

    1. Re:Happens every time they change something by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Excellent point. I had the same problem with my pro audio hardware. I remember how "Windows 2k was just not for audio" and that "there were never going to be wdm drivers" for certain hardware. Today, wdm is a terrific way to drive audio cards, allowing for more channels, less latency and better all-around performance. Just because the lazy programmers finally had to bite the bullet. I remember being told by several vendors that Win2k and WinXP were not going to be any good for audio production and that I better hang on to NT.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:Happens every time they change something by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh boy, this brings back memories of my Targa 1000 video capture card and my ADB Digital 24/96 ISA audio card.

      The last official support for the Targa 1000 card was on Windows NT4 with Service Pack 3. Not SP6, but SP3. It also needed exactly QuickTime 3 to function.

      My ADB Digital audio card was, from a hardware perspective, a marvelous card. For $400 in 1998 I got stereo in/out with 1/4" TRS balanced jacks, and a great S/N ratio of 105dB. Even by today's standards that's pretty good. The only problem was that they wrote the drivers in VISUAL BASIC 3. Yes, I'm serious. They actually worked pretty well, but they sure as hell never worked with Windows 2000.

      Having been burned twice, I'm now buying as many of my A/V peripherals as possible as external components. I finally have a similar setup again on my Mac G5 that should last a lot longer.

      - External firewire hard drive (will work on a Mac, PC, or a laptop).
      - Built-in DV FireWire card (all computers have these now, except some PCs).
      - Presonus Firebox FireWire audio interface (works on Mac or PC. Uses CoreAudio on the Mac, which is their built-in driver
          for all sorts of devices. Hence, no crappy 3rd party hardware manufacturer drivers even required!)

      The moral of the story?

      - External interfaces last longer than internal interfaces (FireWire vs ISA or PCI, for example).
      - Generic OS drivers are better than manufacturer provided drivers, especially if it's a niche/specialty hardware company
          that is good at making hardware but then has to get some stupid drivers written so they can actually sell their product.

  20. Treacherous computing at its finest by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    I'm the first to shout hooray for a secure platform. But trying to lock out what cannot be locked out isn't security, it's stupidity. Now, I know that "being secure" is just the frontend to sell TCP, but at least a frontend should hold some water 'til it's sold.

    Locking out competition by rising the cost to produce for a certain platform is a BAD idea. See IBM's Microchannel architecture for reference. And that was hardware, something you can't simply copy instead of shelling out the dough for the higher cost (which, in turn, is a result of licensing/signing fees).

    Security comes with a sensible security concept. And that in turn is not linked to disabling the user's ability to install what he pleases, but it is a matter of permissions and differently enabled accounts. One for installing, one for everyday use. It's not like it is completely impossible, there are systems in existance who do just exactly that, and it doesn't take an IT expert to make it work. Everyone can do it, when it is implemented sensibly.

    And when not every program needs admin rights to at least do what it is supposed to do.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  21. Agnitum Outpost by bananaendian · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been using a free version Agnitum's Outpost firewall for several years now on my w2k machine and its a clever little program, far simpler and thinner than the offererings from the major players. However like any good firewall program it does require the user to make very technical decisions on network traffic permissions whenever a process tries to contact the internet. Now before I praise it for not letting a process (virus/spyware/legitware) do a thing I don't want for the last couple of years, I do have to mention a disclaimer that in addition I've got the latest security updates for w2k, a NATted hardware firewall on the router and generally secured my system according to NSA's manuals.

    Unlike in a Unix environment, in Windows the basic security concepts aren't required of the user. Windows computers despite the networking or even server capabilities are still built upon the philisophy of Personal Computer where the user has total control but also total responsiblity for what the software does. Microsoft's attempts to somehow augment security on top of this flawed concept is not going to succeed and in fact seems to be going the opposite way. Certainly my w2k box is easier to make secure than XP with its 'security improvements' and it seems Vista will make it impossible for the user to secure the computer that he's supposed to own and control.

    Sadly I will try to stick with poor old w2k as long as possible but eventually I might have to resort to going the OSX way...

    --
    www.tribalnetworks.org - helping tribal people around the world to own their own means of high-tech communications
    1. Re:Agnitum Outpost by MattPat · · Score: 1
      Windows computers despite the networking or even server capabilities are still built upon the philisophy of Personal Computer where the user has total control but also total responsiblity for what the software does. Microsoft's attempts to somehow augment security on top of this flawed concept is not going to succeed and in fact seems to be going the opposite way. Certainly my w2k box is easier to make secure than XP with its 'security improvements' and it seems Vista will make it impossible for the user to secure the computer that he's supposed to own and control.

      IMHO, the concept is not flawed at all, but it has a dependency: the user must be computer-savvy enough to know what software gets installed on his or her computer. I think the reason Microsoft is imposing control over some parts of Windows is so that spyware, etc. isn't installed so quietly. When a user actually know's what's on his or her computer, it's a lot easier to make sure it's doing what it's supposed to.

      If a user buys a virus on CD, and installs it, knowing that it's a virus, then it is the user's responsibility. The challenge is making sure the user does know what every program on their computer is supposed to do, which is what I see as one of the goals of Microsoft's OS security improvements (well, "improvements").

      Other operating systems have (in general) base systems that are already more secure than Windows, but how is the concept any different? Security is totally the user's responsibility.

      Just my 2 cents worth.

    2. Re:Agnitum Outpost by jb.hl.com · · Score: 1

      Sane post regarding Windows spyware on Slashdot shocker!

      You're completely correct, Windows should not be blamed for the programs that run on it or the people that made them. I could bet you that if there were spyware for Linux then it wouldn't be the KDE/Gnome/kernel teams who would get blamed :)

      --
      By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
  22. Which, I gather, is basically what they're doing. by Dogun · · Score: 1

    Microsoft should be the one contacting the main antivirus companies around to make sure that their products work without problems with the new version of Windows as soon as it hits the stores.

    http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/driver/kernel/64bitp atch_FAQ.mspx

    From the FAQ:

    [snip]
    Q. Patch protection prevents my application or driver from running. What are my options?
    A. Modify your application or driver to use only Microsoft-documented interfaces. If the functionality you want to enable is not supported with Microsoft-documented interfaces, then you cannot safely enable that functionality. There is no mechanism to selectively disable patch protection or "special-case" a given application to work around patch protection. If an application or driver patches the kernel, it generates a bug check and shuts down the system. Note that patch protection in the operating system might be extended in future releases or service packs, so using any undocumented mechanisms in your application or driver (even if they seem to work on released versions of Windows that support patch protection) might result in further incompatibilities in the future.

    If your application or driver must perform a task that you believe cannot be accomplished without patching the kernel, contact Microsoft Customer Support Services or your Microsoft representative for help in finding a documented alternative.

    If no documented alternative exists for the functionality that you want to implement, then the functionality will not be supported on any Windows operating system that includes patch protection support.
    [/snip]

    I wonder what percent of the BSOD minidumps that come back to Microsoft are caused by somebody patching something they didn't understand or because some internal API changed?

  23. Worst analogy EVER! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please think before posting. The way your post reads implies that Windows Vista will render the need for antivirus software obsolete.

    If you honestly believe that, go back on your meds, mmkay? Because given Microsoft's track record w/r/t the claims it makes about the next version of Windows, nobody in their right mind believes anything coming from the Redmond PR machine anymore. Wasn't it XP or 2000 that wasn't going to need service packs? Yeah, that was a laugher. And there are plenty more examples.

  24. Locksmith door analogy. by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    No, it's like Locksmiths petitioning the state not to mandate that only one type of "new secure door" be used going forward, the specs of which will be kept a state secret.

  25. Hah by flimflammer · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I love these controversal subject names. Really gives you that "We hate Microsoft and are damn well proud of it!"

    The title just smells of "We dont like other anti-virus makers and want to block them", when the real subject is more "We're securing our kernel better than before, making it harder to dig into things people shouldn't be. Work around the changes in our internal api if you want to continue doing the things you do."

    I see this as nothing more than making a mountain out of an ant hill.

  26. Sensible security model by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    Two core elements of a sensible security model for me is notifying the user of something he might not want done, and allowing him to turn off superficial alerts so that he can concentrate on the real problems. Now I forget what the feature is called that Microsoft implemented that is supposed to do this sort of thing, but all the reports seem to be saying that it's been flagging superficial stuff like deleting a shortcut from the desktop and I haven't been hearing reports of it catching really serious stuff. Though instead of writing software to detect and notify about the really serious stuff, it seems that Microsoft has done this.

  27. Re:Which, I gather, is basically what they're doin by daeg · · Score: 1

    From what I've seen with beta drivers in Vista, it tells you explicitly what driver caused it. "nVidia Display Driver has attempted to alter and possibly destabilize your system" and then the driver is (somewhat glitched) stopped. Definitely more friendly than old school BSODs. We shall see how the final Vista plays out.

  28. HA in a linux post most of the +5 posts would by atarione · · Score: 1

    have been modded -1 trolls

    nobody may have ever been fired for buying microsoft product

    but nobody has ever been modded down for flaming Microsoft on slashdot

    for fuck sake people have been bitching at m$ to secure the kernel better in future windows versions now they do and they are locking out the competition. If I was m$ i'd be really bummed out by this until I looked around and saw my huge piles of money laying around all over the place then I would be feeling ok again.

    --
    actually I am happy to see you, however that is in fact a banana in my pocket.
  29. Where is the problem? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    This is MS's OS. They do not give it to you or the anti-virus company. It is leased to you. That means that MS owns it and all the data that they claim that they own (i.e. the data that you produced on their OS). If they want to lock out anti-virus companies, I do not understand where the issue is. If these companies do not like it, then they should consider a new line of work on a different OS.

    Sad to say, but there really is no need for anti-virus on other system. Yes, I know that Virus do occur on Apple, Linux, *nix, etc. But they are not much of an issue. All in all, MS is the ONLY system that requires it.

    The real issue here, is that if a company really wants to make money and to not have to worry about unfair, illegal, and monopolistic actions against them when ever a company feels, then they should should NOT be on Windows.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:Where is the problem? by GiMP · · Score: 1

      > It is leased to you.

      No, it is licensed.

      > That means that MS owns it and all the data that they claim that they own (i.e. the data that you produced
      > on their OS).

      They do not own content produced from the OS, if this was the case no company would use Windows... you're implying that if someone wrote a program underneath Windows, that Microsoft would own it. If you think this, you're completely ignorant.

    2. Re:Where is the problem? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Read MS's EULA. If you use the OS, then you agreed to it.

      What I keep in mind is that the current ppl in control are very motived to find more money for themselves. MS and Hollywood are LOADED, and appear to be happy to spread it.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:Where is the problem? by Dadoo · · Score: 1

      As much as I dislike MicroSoft, I have to agree with you, which is why I can't figure out why companies still write software for Windows. If you do, and your product is reasonably successful, there are only two options for your future: 1) you'll get bought out by Microsoft, or 2) Microsoft will come out with a competing product and put you out of business. This has been obvious since Microsoft came out with Windows 95 and all but killed Novell. Personally, I think they were just about ready to do the same thing to Intuit (with MS Money), but Linux got in their way.

      --
      Sit, Ubuntu, sit. Good dog.
    4. Re:Where is the problem? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Actually, MS tried to buy Intuit, but the feds said no. Then the net and Linux got in the way of MS being able to kill them outright. Now, MS Money is bigger than quicken. The only thing keeping Intuit going is TurboTax.

      I taught at TT back in '98(or 99). I saw a running version of TT on Linux (I was not really suppose to talk about it, but it was more than 5 years ago). Apparently, the sales ppl fought doing it on Linux. Sad. I suspect that MS pays off a LOT of sales ppl.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    5. Re:Where is the problem? by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1
      Read MS's EULA. If you use the OS, then you agreed to it.
      And if you bought a pre-built system like say... from Dell, you never even saw the EULA when you started using the system.
      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    6. Re:Where is the problem? by GiMP · · Score: 1

      Rather than force others to locate supporting evidence for your silly claims, how about providing your own citations?

  30. In Other News... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Dogs are eating dog food.
    Cats are eatin gcat food.
    Bush is doing something stupid.
    Shaq is eating.
    Grass is growing.
    MSFT's bill for breaking EU law went up.
    MSFT lies.
    Vista is just that... a vista.
    Linux is pwning server rooms across america.
    Ballmer is throwing chairs.
    Ballmer is cursing Google.
    Ballmer heard repeating "developers, developers, developers" from people outside his bathroom window...

    You see, the world just makes sense.

    1. Re:In Other News... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Cats are eatin gcat food.

      I take it that gcat food is made by Gnome developers? :-)

    2. Re:In Other News... by Master+of+Transhuman · · Score: 1


      Israel is killing civilians.

      The US is losing in Iraq.

      Tony Blair is sucking Bush's dick.

      Pam Anderson got married again - to the same guy.

      Mel Gibson is drunk and spewing anti-Semitic crap.

      Yup - a normal day in the neighborhood.

      --
      Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
  31. Wrong example by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

    You use the wrong example for the locksmith. It should be this is like your locksmith rekeying the locks on your house with a special key that only they can produce and you must get from them. This is much like the automakers did with "smart" keys. It used to be if you needed an extra car key, you could get a copy made for a dollar or so. Now, you have to go to the dealer and pay $35 or more, depending on make or model.

    Has the "new" car key approach made it harder to hack or steal cars, no, just more of a hassle for honest owners of the vehicle. Will the change being made by Microsoft ultimately make Windows more secure and harder to hack into? Likewise, no. It's all for the appearance of security, but until Microsoft changes the basic nature of Windows being able to connect to any device anywhere and automatically sharing files with Aunt Mary, there will always be holes to exploit.

    Until Microsoft truly takes security seriously, they are still putting band-aids on top of fundamentally insecure systems. It's far cheaper to offer the appearance of security than to actually do it. Doing so would mean a whole new code base. Apple did it with OSX, the question is whether Microsoft has the ability to let go of the past to build for the future and do it, too.

    Whether it's GM selling me a $1.00 key for $35 or Microsoft selling me a "trusted computing" platform, neither one will prevent someone from getting what is mine if they really want it.

  32. Not such a good appology. by twitter · · Score: 1

    Our software doesn't work, we're pissed. ... Instead of whining, why don't they engage Microsoft and figure out what exactly they need. ... Microsoft will NOT be in a good situation if Vista turns out to be a dud security-wise. They want it to work.

    You must have read a different report. The one I read said that Microsoft was broken and they won't let anyone fix it. The M$ security model was easy to circumvent and that circumvention was the only way to get what they need to watch out for all the dirt bags doing the same thing to serve up adds and spam.

    Insulting the people who try to fix what's broken on M$ is not a good way to apologize for M$'s broken junk.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  33. This demonstrates ... by Helldesk+Hound · · Score: 1

    ... that Micro$oft is not capable of providing a properly secure system.

    Programs running in userland should not be capable of modifying ANY part of the system.

    The only time that system files should be even capable of being modified is when the system's administrator / root user is logged in with root/admin permissions - and then ONLY the root user should be capable.

    Why should a program running with the permissions of a user be capable of performing as if it had permissions of an administrator?

    The kernel should simply prohibit that without question and without exception.

    Until M$ learns that lesson it will never be capable of producing properly secure software.

    Actually, now that I've thought of it, the question is more along the lines of why doesn't M$ want to produce truly secure software - because given that company's resources there is no good reason that I can see that would explain why it produces such seriously insecure software!

    1. Re:This demonstrates ... by init100 · · Score: 1

      Programs running in userland should not be capable of modifying ANY part of the system.

      Note that userland does not mean unprivileged, but rather not in kernel mode.

  34. This is security? by Myria · · Score: 1

    This new kernel patch protection should be viewed as safety against badly coded legitimate drivers, not security against a rootkit.

    Rootkit authors are some of the best programmers and reverse engineers in the world. Does anyone *really* think that rootkit authors won't find a way around ci.dll? Even Vista 64's requirement that all kernel drivers be signed is a real joke. As long as it is possible to write to \Device\Harddisk0\Partition0 (NT's /dev/hda) from user mode as administrator, a rootkit can simply take over the entire boot process starting with the MBR, and call NtShutdownSystem to force a reboot into the hacked MBR. If using EFI, it's a bit different but still not difficult.

    All this really prevents are mainstream drivers hooking into the kernel. Companies whose drivers once patched the kernel won't do so anymore, because if you bypass ci.dll publicly, Microsoft will "force" an update onto almost all users within days (or next second Tuesday if you're not important enough). I suppose that this is a good thing - I'm tired of stupid kernel drivers like nProtect and SafeDisc compromising system security and stability just to prevent cheating or copying (respectfully) in some game.

    Melissa

    --
    "Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
    1. Re:This is security? by slowbad · · Score: 1
      Rootkit authors are some of the best programmers and reverse engineers in the world.

      McAfee and Symantec should get mediocre programmers at the least. Try to run McAfee Stinger or the Googlepack NAV2005 on a Windows box with no C: drive.

      McAfee won't always properly drill down from the root directory, and Norton products have had this well-documented bug in many products for years now.

      Why would you trust even your bootsector to these "experts" from such notable companies, if they cannot even find a 'SystemDrive' or 'windir' variable?

  35. Ballmer also mentioned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After his statement, a followup announcement was made, pushing the expected release date back until March of 2011.

  36. That's what Vista does by Myria · · Score: 1

    In Vista, programs normally run without admin privileges even when you're supposedly logged on as an administrator. It's much like OS X's handling of administrators, though not at the technical level (NT has no setuid).

    The problem is that Microsoft is preventing certain things from happening even when you *are* running as a trusted user. In Vista 64, you *cannot* load an unsigned kernel driver, even if you are a maximum-privileged user mode program. This is retarded, because such a user mode program can take over the system anyway regardless of that.

    Melissa

    --
    "Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
  37. Translation to twitterese by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    You mu$t have read a different report. The one I read $aid that Microsoft wa$ broken and they won't let anyone fix it. The MS $ecurity model wa$ ea$y to circumvent and that circumvention wa$ the only way to get what they need to watch out for all the dirt bag$ doing the $ame thing to $erve up add$ and $pam.

    In$ulting the people who try to fix what'$ broken on MS i$ not a good way to apologize for MS' broken junk.

  38. Water vs. fire vs. earth vs. wind... by Datamonstar · · Score: 1

    It's like an elemental system in an RPG. Windows is weak against hacks, but strong vs. clueless users. Unix variants are weak agains end user sympathies, but hardened against hackers and what not. Throw Linux at a clueless user or force a unix guru to use Windows and you're likely to kill maim or outright destroy them both. I guess Macs could be considered the "non-elemental" kills-all system. it really is like a game, but it's too bad it really isn't any fun at all.

    --
    The eternal struggle of good vs. evil begins within one's self.
  39. Re:YaRly? by jc42 · · Score: 1

    I don't particularly relish the idea of having to take MS's word for what's happening down in kernel or having theirs being the only powerful security/utility products availble.

    Prorammers have long understood that, especially at the kernel level, the only way to understand what's happening down there is to study the source code (and, in some cases, the machine code that it compiles to). Anything else is at best a summary, and at worst a parody of what's really going on.

    Face it, with a binary-only kernel, the only way to understand kernel issues and write powerful (or even effective) security products is to have access to the kernel internals. If you don't have that, you are locked out, and your products can never compete with those written by people with inside knowledge.

    Without access to the source, the code in there could be doing anything at all, and you have no defense against it whatsoever.

    --
    Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  40. Serves 'em right by TheOtherChimeraTwin · · Score: 1

    I tried to use Norton in one of my applications. It would have been very nice to be able to scan a user provided file with an antivirus application, but I couldn't find an API. All I was looking for was something like Microsoft Word had -- for a given user file, scan it and tell me if it is infected or not. Symantec wouldn't provide any information "for security purposes."

  41. The iPod purchase agreement by Kaseijin · · Score: 1
    Just transfering unencrypted files to and from an iPod constitutes a crime (according to Apple legal) if you aren't using iTunes. //technically// using the Windows Explorer to do so is a violation of the "terms and agreements" you apparently agree to when you buy an iPod.

    You can cite that, right? Because there aren't any "terms and agreements" governing the use of an iPod, disk mode is an advertised feature, and breach of contract is usually a civil offense.

    1. Re:The iPod purchase agreement by calciphus · · Score: 1

      Sorry, allow me to clarify:

      When Apple disabled the functionality to "download from iPod" (iTunes 4.7) the actual file system became a part of the DRM scheme, and thus protected by the DMCA. When a third party (Real Networks) allowed users to transfer files to their iPods, Apple sued under DMCA, claiming that any use of 3rd party software (including windows explorer, mind you!) was a violation of the DMCA. See details here: Apple Accuses RealNetworks of Hacking [PCWorld.com]

      And there's a whole bunch of "terms and agreements" you agree to when you purchase an iPod and install iTunes for the first time. The legal notice included in both the iPod manual (at least the last one I had, which I admit is a few versions back. I stopped using iPods the first time my battery died and they told me it'd cost $160 to replace it) and in the iTunes install expressly forbid the use of non-Apple-approved software to interface with the iPod. While this isn't legally binding, it does allow them to sue. And sue they do.

      (from article linked above):
      "We are stunned that RealNetworks has adopted the tactics and ethics of a hacker to break into the IPod, and we are investigating the implications of their actions under the DMCA and other laws", says Apple's statement. "We strongly caution Real and their customers that when we update our IPod software from time to time it is highly likely that Real's Harmony technology will cease to work with current and future IPods."

      Is THAT the company you're backing? Threatening their own customers and calling them criminals in an official press release? Just sounds like a little kid throwing a tantrum.

    2. Re:The iPod purchase agreement by Kaseijin · · Score: 1
      When Apple disabled the functionality to "download from iPod" (iTunes 4.7) the actual file system became a part of the DRM scheme, and thus protected by the DMCA.

      iPod Download was a third-party plugin; Apple never supported copying music from an iPod. (For expedience, I will refer to files intended to be played on the iPod as 'music' and files intended to be stored and retrieved as 'data'.) The status of the filesystem layout under the DMCA, whatever it may be, has been the same since day one--and to my knowledge, Apple has never contended that a hidden folder is DMCAworthy.

      When a third party (Real Networks) allowed users to transfer files to their iPods, Apple sued under DMCA, claiming that any use of 3rd party software (including windows explorer, mind you!) was a violation of the DMCA.

      The article you linked is consistent with my memory of events and not your explanation. Apple specifically objected to Real's reverse-engineering; they served up some legal FUD but no lawsuit.

      And there's a whole bunch of "terms and agreements" you agree to when you purchase an iPod and install iTunes for the first time.

      Purchasing an iPod, no. Installing iTunes (every time, not just the first) requires accepting a licensing agreement which does not even purport to govern the use of an iPod. Even if it did, one could still decline the agreement and use other software.

      The legal notice included in both the iPod manual (at least the last one I had, which I admit is a few versions back. I stopped using iPods the first time my battery died and they told me it'd cost $160 to replace it) and in the iTunes install expressly forbid the use of non-Apple-approved software to interface with the iPod.

      Not the original or Photo manuals. Normally I take people at their word, but at best you've garbled every other claim, so I can't reasonably assume this is any closer to the truth. I will assume the battery replacement price is a typo, since it was originally $106 including shipping.

      While this isn't legally binding, it does allow them to sue. And sue they do.

      Then cite you could.

      Is THAT the company you're backing?

      I'm challenging you to support your claims. If you see that as "backing" anyone, that's your problem.

  42. Re: Code Doing Anything At All by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    Is anyone else as terrified (in context) by that as I am? We can discuss how effective the AV writers are, and whether some of them have side deals, but they are at least DIFFERENT companies trying to patch a known-broken OS. I trust them to SortOfWork.

    The MS Source in the article has GOT to be kidding if we now have to take THEIR word that the known-broken OS is ... "less" broken? Didn't MS blow that feeble chance at trust just lately by shoving an also-broken WGA deceptively as a "critical update"?

    ---Moving from "Barely Positive Windows User" to "Trapped Windows User looking for the chance to switch".

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  43. Whatever happened to WFP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought that Vista was going to ship with a system called Windows Filtering Platform, which, to my understanding, would let the firewalls filter packets without using ring 0 hacks.

    Has this been scrapped along with WFS?

  44. Virus killers using hack techniques by JustNiz · · Score: 1

    >> we have discovered that it is possible to drill past the new security measures introduced by Microsoft - if we use the same techniques used by hackers

    Go ahead and use them. Going by how long it normally takes Microsoft to respond, you've probably got at least 6 months before they close the hole you use, and MS don't know how to write secure code so there will always be some hack-attack you can use.

  45. Re: Code Doing Anything At All by r_a_trip · · Score: 1

    ---Moving from "Barely Positive Windows User" to "Trapped Windows User looking for the chance to switch".

    Go to http://distrowatch.com/. Pick a Distribution that captures your fancy, be it GNU/Linux, *BSD or Solaris. Download it. Install it. Learn how to use it, which means being a worthless noob for over 12 months. After that your MS detox is complete.

    That's your chance right now. Any objections to it are excuses to keep using Windows, in which case you simply want what you say you want to ditch.

    --
    # touch universe # chmod +rwx universe # ./universe
  46. Is MS sabotaging themselves? by austad · · Score: 1

    It seems to me that just about everything you hear about in the news lately seems to fit the theory that MS is actively *trying* to get people to go over to OSX. WGA, AV vendors being stonewalled, licensing issues, etc. MS is in a dominant position now greatly because of piracy of their product, even Bill Gates admitted to that years ago. But what happens when it's no longer possible to easily pirate windows?

    Large corporations will put up with it more than an individual user will, but what happens when the technology decision makers are all running OSX at home? Those people are going to start looking for places in their corporate infrastructure where they can replace Windows with something else, be it OSX, linux, or anything that doesn't have draconian licensing restrictions and the general hassle associated with running Windows. In fact, it's much more annoying if you actually have purchased licensed copies and still have licensing issues, and even worse if your mission critical production environment can be erroneously disabled.

    Many of my corporate clients have already expressed some concern over their MS environment, and some are already actively looking for places where they can wedge something else in.

    --
    Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
  47. Re: Code Doing Anything At All by Nossie · · Score: 1

    games and office.... well and maybe native adobe support...

    if it weren't for those.......

    hmmmmm :(

  48. Agnitum's opinion by Pankov · · Score: 1

    Agnitum's technical brief about Microsoft's approach to Kernel Patch Protection has sparked intense discussion at Digg/Slashdot.

    May we participate in the debate?

    Agnitum believes Microsoft's motivation for introducing Kernel Patch Protection is clear. It is attempting to better protect the typical user of Windows XP x64 and Server 2003 x64 from rootkit vulnerabilities.

    Unfortunately, the approach taken by Microsoft limits the ability of third-party software developers to protect Vista users from other vulnerabilities inherent to Windows. This affects not just Agnitum. It affects Zone Labs, McAfee, Symantec and other developers of security software.

    Third-party security software uses a variety of approaches to protect Windows users. As we noted in the technical brief, http://www.agnitum.com/news/kernel_patch_protectio n.php:

    "One of the most commonly used approaches to implementing proactive protection involves changing and monitoring the Service Dispatch Table (SDT), which is used by the OS to transfer control from user-mode to kernel (low-level system mode)."

    Developers who need deep kernel integration often patch the kernel by changing the service number in the SDT, and when a call is made to invoke a system service, the third-party code is invoked instead of the kernel code -- and the third-party code then returns control to the operating system.

    Kernel patch protection in the x64 versions of XP removes the ability of developers to legitimately change the service number in the SDT by hiding it - but imposes no such restriction on hackers.

    Which is the point we are trying to make. On the one hand, kernel patch protection makes it more difficult for security software to defend Windows from attack. On the other hand, "surprise kernel patches" open Windows to new, broad attack. And please also note that there is no such thing as a secure firewall if that firewall lacks deep OS integration.

    This is not progress. Microsoft's approach forces users to rely on Microsoft and only Microsoft for operating-system security. If past experience is anything to go by, we know that third-party security tools are more robust and provide better protection than what Microsoft offers.

    Clearly, kernel patch protection in its current form is not perfect. Yes, Microsoft is correct in wanting to protect users from rootkits. However, from my point of view, it is more necessary to introduce security measures that do not make users more vulnerable.

    Igor Pankov,
    Product Marketing Manager at Agnitum