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Computer Job w/ No Computer Degree?
Peterus7 asks: "I posted here a few years back, complaining that I couldn't code worth beans, but I wanted to get into computer science. Well, I'm back- with a psychology degree. However, I hear there's still hope since a lot of system admins and the like have liberal arts degrees. In the mean time, I've been working as a Macintosh digital media tutor, freelance tech support, and an assistant system admin at the campus library. Now that I've graduated, I want to find a job that will accept someone who knows a fair amount about computers, but is pretty much self-taught. Where should I start? Are there any classes I should take?"
I started as a computer science major and ended up with a degree in Human Communication though with my background of computer knowledge I was able to get a job doing tech support for a small dot com. Fast forward 2 years and I was able to move up in the company, currently working as a technical project manager and part-time DBA.
All it really takes is a foot in the door...once you have that it's a matter of working inside the company where you have something to offer. If it's a good company then your skills will be recognized and rewarded.. If its not such a great company you'll end up doing your job and someone else's, that's where having a good manager will make all the difference.
Just my $0.02
I once worked in the IT department of a major multinational. Major. One of the managers in charge of software development was, as far as I could gather, quite proud of the fact that they could not program anything, not even a SQL statement, to save their life.
The manager was regarded as one of the best in the department. Major.
There's hope for you yet.
May the Maths Be with you!
I reviewed your original submission, and I gotta say that being a sysadmin is not for you. Well, maybe Windows, but in general a sysadmin has to be extremely good at problem solving. If you couldn't get into Java then you're gonna be banging your head against the wall on a daily basis with the kind of problems sysadmins face. No, they don't necessarily write any code, but the analytical skills required to learn to program are the same as debugging complex interactions between software.
Being self-taught really has nothing to do with it. There are people that never took a single class but were able to pick up programming form a few simple tutorials and a language reference. Likewise, some people take the Intro to Programming class several times and simply fail to ever grasp the abstract nature of code. A computer science degree is valuable because of the ideas it exposes you to, and because employers may value it, but it doesn't really say much about your ability as a computer professional.
My advice would be to look for a job centered around specific applications. Something concrete with good documentation that you learn to perfection. Another possibility is building or repairing computers. It sounds like you've already been doing quite a bit, so you probably have an idea of what you enjoyed and what you didn't. The next step is to simply apply for some jobs and see what pans out.
I started a CS degree and quit about 9 credit hours into it. I suck at math, but I've been programming since I was 12. I've had about 4 jobs doing computer/sysadmin work (two of them at large colleges), have programmed freelance for some time, and I'm now writing a book for Manning Publications on programming (along with a self-published book also).
All while getting a degree in Theology. :)
Don't fret about the degree; you just need the skills and mindset to do it.
[ check out my ruby book @ http://ww
Want to design web sites? You won't believe how many artists and companies want web sites. Make some. Do them for friends and relatives. Make them nice, make them do neat things. Now you've got a portfolio. Look for companies wanting web sites and sell yourself. Make a business out of it.
If you work for yourself (web sites, tech support, whatever) then the hiring manager won't care you don't have a degree. Work your way up and prove you can do what you say and you can get jobs.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Without the skills on paper (relevant coursework, certifications, similar work experience), you're at a severe disadvantage at the resume stage. People are going to spend their time with the people who say they can do it and have something to back it up before they spend their time looking at people who only say they can do something.
You're going to have to meet people and get yourself promoted almost exclusively by word of mouth. Even then it's going to be an uphill battle, because there's always going to be somebody more qualified who's going to get one of the precious interview slots before you. Then you have to be absolutely sure you know what you're doing in the interview, because while somebody who has experience or other qualifications that they can point to may be granted a little bit of slack if they can't do something right off the top of their head (as long as they know, procedurally, what's going on), without anything like that, you have nothing to point to other than your word that you actually do have some kind of background in it.
It's not impossible by any means, but you have it a lot harder than anybody else out there, and you're probably going to be looking for a long time before you find that job you want. And when you do, you're likely going to be hired on the recomendation of one of the people you know in one of your placeholder jobs.
Ever since, I worked in IT, my experience being more meaningful than degrees.
I went to a technical school and got a dgree in Network and Internet Technology. We learned network methods and each mod class we could get certified in that field. We started with A+ and went to NT (back then it was NT now I'm sure you'd learn XP/2003) and we had a Novell and Linux classes. We didn't have a coding class. The linux course touched on Bash and Perl like it rightly should. Maybe you could look into that.
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
Rule number one is to never apologize for not having a Comp Sci degree in an interview.
(Rule number two is that you don't want to work anywhere that strictly requires it)
I have a Liberals Arts degree and I'm a completely self-taught, working Java developer. The only thing I did do to help my job search was get a Sun Certified Java Programmer certification. Almost no experienced developers give any merit to the thing, but during my job search it was useful to "prove" to the skeptical that I really do know Java.
Since from what I know of liberal arts majors, you likely have better writing skills than true computer science graduates. While jumping from pyschology to comp sci would be rough, but your writing ability is a gem. Use it.
Posting anonymously for obvious reasons. But it all boils down to how well you sell yourself, how well you learn under fire, how well you can adapt, and most importantly who you know. I dropped out of high school (early nineties) my Senior year of high school and moved to the closest metro city. Three months later, at age 18, I was making $35/hour as a jack of all trades systems administrator. A year later I had been jacked up to Senior Network Analyst and was pulling in $60k. Two years later I was a systems administrator for a Fortune 100 company with full benefits. Now, only a decade later, I'm pulling in six figures between my systems administration position at my day job and the freelance projects I'm doing on the side.
;)
Standard headhunters and sites like Monster.com and CareerBuilder.com proved to be utterly useless and every position I've held since entering the professional workforce has been a referral from a close friend or colleague that got me an in with the company and allowed me to bypass conventional hiring channels. This is the most important thing to remember -- managers hire internally first, take referrals second, and then read external resumes; if another employee highly recommends you then you'll be first in line in the interview process.
Keep track of every professional contact you've ever made. I have two or three hundred page binders to keep business cards in chronological order of each professional contact I've made. Each page holds 16 cards and I write details of the conversation or relationship with each person on the back of each card. My brain works on mnemonics so scanning/inputting each contact's info doesn't work for me; I remember each contact based on where in each binder their business card is and which business cards surround it on the page. So I can say, "yeah, that security guy I met in the bar at PumpCon 1996 was red and was in the binder right after the blue graphic designer's card, I think I'll give him a call".
So yeah, don't know if this braindump is any help to you, but there is hope out there for degreeless geeks.
I've been a sysadmin for 12 years now without a degree and I'm doing fine. I've worked (and work now) at some of the biggest companies in the world and the subject almost never comes up.
The few companies that have turned me away because of it were companies you've never heard of because they were small and didn't survive long enough to get big.
I currently do technical support research for a really big well known software company - it pays really well and the benefiets are quite good, but in the process I had to do some really crappy jobs along the way. One of the hardest was front line technical support, but without it I wouldn't have gained the respect to get the job I have now. I think I have a knack for solving problems :).
Along the way I've tried picking up programming - I'm learning, but its a long and slow process. I'm sure actual classes in school would help quite a bit.
In 1993, I dropped out of college because the comp sci curriculum was horseshit, heavy on chemistry and physics that I would never need. I returned to my co-op job for a while, selling computers and providing some support in the computer department of the bookstore at another local university. I got very good at troubleshooting Macs. In 1996 I ended up at MacTemps (now known as Aquent). Through them I worked a couple brief Mac support jobs followed by a longer one which led to a permanent position in late 1998. After just over two years at that company, I left for my current job in early 2001. I'm currently making $60K+, and I have been increasingly in demand due to the Mac resurgence.
I think you're in better shape than I am, since you actually have a college degree. Try going to a temp agency and have them place you in some short-term temp gigs. It helped me build my experience and flesh out my list of references. Between an experience-filled resume and a few people willing to sing your praises, you should be able to land yourself in a good permanent position.
I took 3 years of CS classes, dropped out, with disgust and contempt for the department I might add. Later I returned to finish college, this time as a history major. I swore I'd never take another CS class as long as I lived, and settled for the minor. I've currently got about 20 hours left for the BA. Which will take forever, since I work full time as a Network Admin, and I love my job far more than I ever loved college. I still maintain that all college did for me was network me with some great friends, the degree has become a matter of pride for me, and little else.
So, I have no credentials to speak of, other than a self built business, mostly consulting work, and a load of time spent learning anything that sparked my interest, and certifcations are a waste of money IMHO. But I can code, a good admin has to be able to write, read, and alter code. A good admin has to be able to make programs accross the network work together, and shoe horn stuff together when need be, all while keeping the whole thing secure and stable. You might find yourself reading C one day, figureing out why the billing system suspends accounts for 24 hours after successfully proccessing credit cards, if the credit card was ran on the last day before the account would have gone deliquent(true story), and the nexy day, you are manually patching a hacked phpBB because the owner customized so much of it that you can't just upgrade their forum....
I tend to ramble, but my point is, you won't make it very high up the ladder in the CS/CE world without the ability to code, it is a fundemental skill.
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
I don't have more then a half dozen courses of post secondary education( I know the stuff, or can learn it, just not in the normal post secondary environments - and found that I don't need to).
I also have over 6 years of experience, working my way up the chain of tech support. I'm now a server admin and general troubleshooter for an organization that supports over 3000 desktops, 150 servers from Vancouver to Angola, with 9 techs.
I didn't get the job for my education, I got it for my experience. The 4 years that I put in while most people were in college have earned me a larger pay increase on average then the techs I know(both in and out of my organization) have earned from 4 years in college.
I know someone is going to say, it will matter in the future - years down the road they will make more then me. But 6 years ago, I was told that after 4 years I would be making less. Don't buy it just because they say so.
Besides, the work is rewarding and I enjoy it, so I don't really care at this point.
On Arrakis: early worm gets the bird. Magister mundi sum!
It's not impossible to do, but it does take a lot of hard work. First, learn everything that you can about what you want to do, and expect to start low on the totem pole. If you lack a degree or certification, then resume experience (or having good contacts) will be your only hope. I got started professionally in IT in the years just before Y2K, so everyone was always hiring, and I got a job as a PC Technician through a "consulting" company that did staff augmentation. After a couple of years and numerous assignments I was able to demonstrate competency and a wide range of technical knowledge, and began getting placements as a junior-level server admin. I continued working and learning, yadda yadda yadda, until I started getting more senior-level jobs (like as a consultant on large Exchange migrations, etc). If you work hard and learn everything that you can, you will continue building useful resume experience. Working at numerous jobs via consulting companies really helps here. If you keep at it you'll eventually be able to get that cool sysadmin job that you want. I've worked for organizations ranging from small nonprofits to Fortune 50 companies. At the moment I'm the senior engineer for a small company with an IT staff of eight people and make about $75k (in central Ohio). Granted, that's not riches beyond your wildest dreams, but for someone with no degree and no certifications who was largely self-taught that's pretty good.
If your goal is to get into development or some other more specialized area, then the barrier to entry is much higher. You might want to consider working on some OSS pojects to build experience and get your name out there. What I have found in life is that degrees and certs really only demonstrate a basic level of training and competence. Once you have the degree/cert, you still are fairly useless until you have accumulated some experience working in the real world. Some people are able to accumulate the experience without the degree, and as long as they can get past pre-screening for a job (where HR usually weeds out people who don't meet the paper requirements) then they can usually do quite well. That's why consulting companies are a good place to work, as their customers rarely ask to see anything other than experience. But if you have neither experience nor a degree/certs, prepare to start at the bottom and work your way up. Usually it's faster just to get the degree.