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What Jobs are Available for Math Majors?
Asmor asks: "I'm currently a CS major/math minor in college, who's strongly considering a role reversal. I like working with computers as a hobby, but I'm not so sure it's what I'd want to do for a living. On the other hand, I love math, especially in its pure and abstract forms. I would like to get a doctorate some day, but ideally I'd like to find a job as soon as I get my bachelor's. I've expressed this interest to important people in my life (like my parents and such) and the general consensus is that there aren't any jobs for math majors. I can't really disagree. Aside from teaching it, something I'm not sure I'd want to do, I can't think of any jobs for math majors. So, what options are out there for me if I did decide to switch? Would my future consist of high school math classes? Also, how much work is involved?"
Having a math degree basically opens a lot of engineering jobs to you. Maybe a job as an engineer with NASA? Google? Any large tech firm you want? Since you will have a major/minor in Comp Sci, more doors will open for you.
But only if you're REALLY good at math. I'm told that the exam is a extremely difficult.
[Insert pithy quote here]
I took an Intermediate Calculus course this Spring as an elective, and I was the only non-Math major in the room (I'm Computer Science)... I asked around and I'd say 99% of the people in that class planned on getting a teaching certificate to become grade school math teachers.
I suppose the other 1% goes on to get a Masters and PhD in Math and stays at the University forever.
"Would you like fries with that? By the way, I'm just doing this job to pay the bills. I have a number of leads on professorships. Uh, the ketchup is behind you. Did I tell you I have a Ph.D.? Er, we're out of the red clown toys in the kid's meals. But I could calculate the approximate centroid region of one, if you want!"
1. McDonalds Fry Cook 2. Math Teacher 3. ???
Religion for nerds. Stuff that really matters
Don't laugh. Larry Niven's degree is in math with a psych minor. The way he tells it (and he should know) is that he spent two years taking required clases and whatever looked interesting then worked out a major that would fit.
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I'm a high school teacher, but there are plently of community colleges in the same fix (I do them part time on occasion as well). I know the community colleges around here allow their teachers to also work tech if they desire. This way, they can keep their skills sharp and up to date.
No seriously. The gaming industry (in particular gaming machine manufacturers, i.e. slot machines) requires people good with statistics skills to determine if a new game idea is valid (read: will make them money over time). It may not be the most glamorous work, but it's necessary.
Another job one of my math professors in college had was essentially data analysis for a mining company. They would place sensors in the ground and take some sort of reading, returning a huge amount of data that needed to be analyzed. The analysis was done through various mathematical models that I have only the vaguest understanding of.
My best suggestion if you're worried about this stuff: talk to your professors. I would guess that at least a few of them have held jobs outside academia and could give you an idea of where you could work. Hopefully this at least gives you a place to start looking.
Search back issues of the Wall Street Journal. A few months back (March-to-May timeframe I think) there was a front-page article (might have been on the front page of section B or C) that mentioned a specific teacher, a specific statistical class, and the 6-figure incomes that graduates of this class got in Wall Street finance firms. Basic subject of the class was how to calculate the value of each part of a transaction and figure out the risk/reward for it as an investment. Derivitives and how to calculate them are big now, it is what Hedge Funds are doing.
Jeez how old are you?
Do the Math Major/Compu Sci minor. If you're good enough to get a Phd then the problem of getting a job after your BSc will be trivial. With a Math major no decent software company will care. Likewise most financial companies will snap you up.
Are all college kids this dumb in the US?
Here a few possibilties
1. Actuarial Science
Lots of probability and statistics if that's your thing. I've heard the qualification exams are pretty tough, and since you haven't really devoted study to it as an undergrad, you'd have to get some graduate education before you could even hope for a job.
2. Biostatistics (and other things like this)
Again, this would require some more education, but there's a good chance of you getting a job. Biological research is only going to continue to grow, and there's always room for someone to do the important mathematics.
3. Computer Science
I'm sure other people will point this kind of thing out, but places like Google, etc. definitely don't mind having mathematicians with CS background for things like algorithm development and the like.
4. Mathematics
Stick with it and get your PhD in pure (or applied) mathematics. Get a post-doc, and then a professorship, and enjoy a rewarding (intellectually) life in academia. If you really love it, this is a great way to go.
I think the main theme of this post is probably that the best way to ensure that you get a job (that does not involve teaching minors) is to keep going in your education. That is not to say that you can't get a job with a BS, but I think you'll find there's a lot more open to you in today's world with at least an MS.
First, my credentials: I did a dual major in Math and CS. I went to school planning on getting the CS degree, but, like you, I enjoyed the math so much that I ended up with two majors. Actually, I ended up with all of a CS major and 1.5 times as many math credits as I needed for that major. I also seriously thought about going on for an MS and PhD in math, but decided I wanted to take a break for a while and get a job.
Well, I got the job, and a wife, and kids, and while I don't regret any of how my life has gone, and wouldn't change it a bit, I'll tell you that if you're really serious about getting the post graduate degrees, do it now, don't wait. If you wait, odds are very good that you'll never get the other degrees. My math professors told me that back then, and I didn't believe them, but I now know just how right they were. You can even get married while still going to school, if you want, and I even know people who've finished their doctorate with a couple of kids, but they were smart enough not to stop going to school.
As for what kinds of jobs you can get with a math degree, there are lots, actually. A BS in math won't get you a "math job" (except as a schoolteacher), but it can certainly help you get lots of jobs that have an element of math in them. For example, if hiring a programmer, I'd generally hire a math major with a CS background over a CS major. In general, people look at a resume that mentions a math degree and automatically assume that you must be a bit smarter than the other resumes in the pile. So if you enjoy the math, you might as well do it, because it's never going to hurt you.
If you want a job where mathematics is the primary focus of your job, though, you really have to go on and get at least a master's degree. With that in hand, there are lots of engineering and research organizations that need someone with serious math skills. The best area of mathematics to pursue to for employability is almost certainly statistics. With a little additional effort you can become a certified actuary, for example.
A Ph.D. will get you into a lot of the same positions as an M.S., plus it's pretty much a requirement if you want to teach math at a university. Be warned, though... those math faculty positions can be hard to get. A good friend of mine is the chair of the math department at a local state university and every position they advertise nets them 200-300 resumes, many of them from very competent people. From what I hear, if you don't have anything seriously wrong with you that makes you unhirable, you will be able to get a job teaching math, but it might take a couple of years, and you'll have to be willing to live wherever the job is.
If math is what you really enjoy, though, I'd focus less on the job prospects and more on doing what you like. You'll be happier, even if you don't make as much money.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
I was rather like you when I was in undergrad (in the late 90's). I started out as a Math major (Operations Research) which required certain CS classes. As I learned more about CS, I found that there is a very rich mathematical basis for Computer Science -- from the theories of computation to graphics to algorithm analysis. Almost any serious PhD in CS involves a heavy dose of mathematics in one form or another. Think of it as applied mathematics, in a geeky twisted way :)
:)
Part of what I'm saying is that you can do CS and not end up as a programmer, per se.
The other half of the equation is that there *are* significant (well-paying) jobs for mathematicians. Now, I doubt that you'd want to (or could) seriously pursue any of them with just a BS, but a PhD need not be a requirement. My S/O's employer has several math/statistics majors on staff who perform marketing analysis, trending, etc... some of it rather high-powered stuff. If you look into the Actuarial or Operations Research fields (if that floats your boat), there are awesome opportunities.
Whatever direction you choose, I strongly encourage you to go past a BS -- at least stay in school through an MS program. For one thing, it opens more doors down the road (I've gotten at least two jobs partially because I have an MS/CS). More importantly though, IMHO, it makes you a better professional; you learn a heck of a lot more in grad school than in undergrad -- at least that was my experience. You study your subject in far more depth and with far more rigor than in undergrad and you're treated more like a colleague than a student. It's an awesome experience, particularly if your're more of the geeky theoretical type
Whatever you do, make sure you enjoy it. Of course, you can always go back and get a second degree in underwater basket weaving or Anthropology, but it's a heck of a lot easier to get it right the first time. The sooner you identify a career path (at least vaguely), the better choices you can make in courses, internships, research focus, etc.
Good luck to you!
The NSA is the largest single employer of mathematicians in the world. ... Or you could do finance.
I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
I took an Intermediate Calculus course this Spring as an elective, and I was the only non-Math major in the room . . .
Where were the physics/chem majors? In my undergraduate days we outnumbered the math majors in any calc course.
And the people after teaching certificates were why such courses always finished with about a third of the students they started with. They changed majors to English or Media studies, eventually got their certificates and went on the teach primary and secondary math anyways.
Remember the modern paradigm; you don't have to know the subject to teach it, because your specialty is teaching; and in any case people who know better than you do prepare all of the materials anyway.
Just follow the curriculum.
KFG
"I'm currently a CS major/math minor in college, who's strongly considering a role reversal."
Make sure you are prepared for it. A lot of people I know who did well in calculus and differential equations (and other appliable engineering classes) weren't really prepared for the theoretical nature of high-level math classes. Try taking a low-level number theory class or something similar with a lot of proofs to determine if you are up for taking the high-level analysis classes.
I personally think a math major is somewhat useless if you want to be an engineer. The most it will do for you is teach you how to think in a more analytical way, but you won't learn as much as you may think. My school offered an applied math major which I think is a lot more useful and interesting.
I was a math/history double major, and am now doing neuroscience... but that's besides the point.
With a pure math BA you can basically go to any engineering, physics, biology, neuroscience, finance, econ, cs, etc masters or PhD program and do just fine. The important part about a math degree, is that it gives you the background and experience required to learn specific applications really quickly. There's a huge demand out there for people who are talented at math, although most of this demand isn't 'pure' math per se, there are a lot of interesting applied problems you can work on that do have theoretical interest to a mathematician.
You should really have no problem finding a job or getting into grad school in almost any tech/science type field that you're interested in coming out college with a BA in Math. The great thing about a math major, against a more specific applied major, is that you learn how to think about many of the applied problems in a deeper way, and since you're aquainted with the underlying theory, you can much more easily link various ideas that are only taught at a plug and play level in the applied fields (for example, most IOE curriculum is just rather narrow subset of graph theory & combinatorics).
Personally, I was interested in a lot of things as an undergrad, and decided to major in math since it basically kept all my options open on a grad/job level, and I certainly haven't regretted that decision.
... of all! -- National Security Agency, or NSA (for short) -- really, the largest employer of mathematicians of all...
Paul B.
...at least, that's what my favorite math major does with all those 1337 calculus skillz.
.open a used book store.
Well yes, you've been modded a troll, but that's about the size of it really. Friend of mine used his PhD to . .
You see, math is not a career, it's a study. An act of scholorship.
I know, I know, that word has disappeared from the lexicon, but there are a few weirdos, here and there, who can still only be legitimately labeled as "scholars."
Well, or "worthless bum," depending on your metaphysics. Or a teacher, but I repeat myself.
Thing is that if you're a math major, as others have pointed out, you don't look for a job in math, you look for a job in engineering, business, computing, insurance, etc. All of these enterprises hire people with math degrees for one reason or another.
And if they're not hiring, well, there always is Starbucks or Target. The pay is low, the conditions sort of suck, but it is honest work and nothing to be ashamed of doing.
Remember, this a classless society and nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go. . .
KFG
I think you'll find the bioinformatics field to be broad enough to meet just about any interest that you may have - work ranges from programming pattern recognition/alignment software (for protein or DNA work) to mathematical modeling of protein networks. Don't worry if biology isn't your greatest strength as you'll be working as a programmer/mathematician solving a biological problem, not as a biologist working with computers (in fact, graduate level programs in bioinformatics tend to recruit computer science majors as the biology/biochem/etc majors don't have the required background).
Some links for further information:
International Society for Computational Biology
National Institute of Health
UCSD
Stanford
IBM
My mother had been teaching full time for ten years when they first started the whole certificate thing in my state. She had the highest rating in her district. In fact, her supervisor wrote in his last report that she was the finest teacher he had ever seen.
.oh, wait, we're talking about "education." Nevermind. Children have nothing to do with that.
One day they called her in and told her she had to get a Master of Education. She said, "Riiiiiiiiight!" They let her go.
Because she had a Bachelor of Fine Arts, ceramics, a specialty whose department she had created at her college; and thus wasn't qualified to show primary school children how to play with clay.
She became a photo journalist, travel. Had the time of her life and made more money with less grief. The only ones who really lost out were the children. Won't someone please think of. .
KFG
As far as other jobs, I find that for long term employment most people are looking for a masters degree. As far as I can tell, the resume filter tend to spit out anything without and engineering of CS degree on it, unless there is also a masters degree. A MS even helps if you are a teacher, and will allow you make some extra money teaching community college.
You could even go over to the dark side and get a masters of education in educational assessment. Due to NCLB, huge amounts of money are being funneled to the test makers, and they cannot get enough people to make the tests. It is a mathematical and computer based situation no matter what subject is being assessed. Who knows how long the gravy train will last, but at least until 2008, when all the bought and paid for elected officials get booted out of office. It is not that testing does not have it's good points, but a lot of parents are pissed off that their kid isn't graduating just because they can't pass a single assessment. One thing that I learned about assessment, and in my science classes, is that a single measurement is merely a guess.
A smart person will find a way to make a living no matter what degree they have. Some of it just has to do with luck. If you do teach, there are programs that will give some extra benefits if you go through them.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
"Quite a few people end up making a living doing something not directly related to their major."
Exactly. Math was one of my majors. I am in charge of IT where I work--never had a comp sci class in my life. There are a lot of career opportunities in business/management for Math majors--ever test your logic/reasoning skills against an MBA (outside finance or econ concentration)? Most business school graduates lack quantitaitive analysis skills.
My advise--make sure you have a well rounded background. Take some literature classes to improve your language/analysis skills. A couple econ classes would be useful--I never took them, but read through macro and micro economics text books and found my knowledge of how the economy works to be on par with the typical business major.
When I hire people for the tech department for the ISP I run, I look for smart, well rounded people who have the capability and self motivated interest to learn. If someone is uncanny enough--like me when I learned economics--to learn a field/skillset on their own, has proven their logic/reasoning skills with a math major, and is a well rounded person with good communications skills, then I would hire that person in a heartbeat. I would not care what job they were being hired for--that person would be capable of being agile and competant in nearly any role they were in.
Look into jobs at utility companies. There's a lot of math that goes into predicting how much power, natural gas, etc. that will get used in the next hour/day/month/year so that appropriate load values can be purchased. Also, look to insurance companies. I've got a friend that's a math major, and she's studying for a certificate in actuarial accounting while working for a large insurance company. In either case, wages are about what you'd expect to get in the computer field.
The Spoon
Updated 6/28/2011
Your friend will be fine: the Theology degree will lead to a government post in the USA, whereas the Mathematics degree will net a real job anywhere outside the USA. It's win-win!
I love math, especially in its pure and abstract forms
Heh....Sure ya do... I suggest he take the following two courses:
If his desire for "pure and abstract" math is no less diminished, well then he is truly *unique*.
as other posters have pointed out becoming an actuary is one career choice - its quite a big committment in terms of working your way through the exams (lots of people are quite pleased to see the end of them when they finish university) ;) and in some specific cases extend from there a little bit. But its by no means hard abstract math - more applied specific math.
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My experience is that the math in the exams will probably start at about what you could comfortably do at 18 (but may have forgotten since
The key requirement for the job (aside from passsing the exams) is IMHO enjoying working with numbers all day
if the exams put you off, consider "quant" work in the finance field
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I think traditionally they've picked up people with PhD's in Math and Physics who didn't want to continue in those fields (or wanted to multiply their earnings subsatntially). Hedge funds, investment banks, etc are the potential employers.
I'm in a Ph.D. program in the humanities. I worked for two years between college and graduate school, and I'm very glad that I did.
When I was in my senior year of college, I had no idea what I wanted to do. Here are some of the things I considered: doctoral study in any of several fields, law school, management consulting, high school teaching, the clergy, working in the non-profit world, working in government. I was in no position to commit to a seven year Ph.D. program that would prepare me for only one job--or to a three year law program that would leave me with a pile of debt.
So I found a job working for the government in Washington, D.C. and stayed there for two years. A year and a half out of college, it became clear to me that I really wanted to be in academia. Taking time away from school was necessary for me to make a mature decision. It also gave me the chance to see what the "real world" is like and to spend some time in a fun city. (Washington is a great place to be if you're right out of college.)
I don't feel that two years away from school hampered my academic ability at all. Maybe things are different in math. I hear that mathematicians tend to produce their best work at a young age. If that's true, there's an advantage to being in graduate school early. (In my field, people tend to do their best work at least a bit later in life.) I also don't know how graduate admissions committees look at people who take time away from school. Clearly it's not seen as a problem in my department, but maybe the sciences are different. Some professional schools (law, business) prefer students who have work experience.
I know nobody who's regretted taking time to work before going to graduate school. I also know nobody who had concrete plans to go to graduate school, took time off to work, and never followed through on the educational plans. (To be fair, I also don't know anybody who was planning to go to math grad school, in particular.) I know lots of people--lawyers and law students, mostly--who regret going straight from college to a graduate or professional program.
I'm sure that for some people, going straight to graduate school is the right decision. For instance, it's probably a good idea if you know that you want the degree, but you hate school and want to get it over with. Or if you're planning to start a family as soon as possible, and you don't want to do that while you're still a student. But for a lot of people, taking time between college and graduate school is the way to go.
I just wanted to thank everyone for the advice (even the Starbucks/McDonalds crowd). You've all really opened my eyes to the opportunities available, and just after perusing your replies I've got an idea of where I'd be interested in going with my math degree, which is far more than I could ever say about computer sciences. Specifically, some of you mentioned that the NSA/DoD are both big on hiring mathematicians, and I've always thought that cryptography was very interesting.
I haven't made my decision, but I've got strong leanings towards taking the switch. I think that next semester I'm gonna go a lot heavier on the math classes and dip into some of the more advanced stuff to make sure it clicks. Thanks again!
I also took time off after school. I got an SB in physics and a master's in electrical engineering, then spent about 4 years working. After that experience, decided I really wanted to go on in physics and am now a couple years in to my PhD.
It's not an easy thing to do, though. It's not easy to switch from 6 figures to a grad student stipent. It's very different being good at working to being good at grad school and it can be frustrating to feel like you've got more experience but are still junior. Plus, it's tricky to live a life and still be looking at 3 or 4 years of school when you'll be 30 next year. If you want a family and kids... well, you better think about whether you're willing to have them while you're still in school.
Anyway, it's not for everybody. The allure of an income is pretty strong. However, if your desire to go get a PhD is not strong enough to overcome that, it's not a real tragedy not to get one. It's not something everyone needs to do, and if you're doing well without one, no big loss.
Intermediate Calculus is all about proofs and theory... definitely only of interest to math majors.
Oh, yeah, I can see where Stokes'/Green's/Taylor's Theorems and being able to prove them wouldn't be of any use to a physicist.
Next thing you know I'll be expecting them to learn stuff with no applicability to the real world at all, like tensor algebra and the fundamental theorem of metric geometry. What was I thinking?
KFG
I used to work at an international bank that had a room full of serious math heads who used various heavy duty software packages and insane Excel sheets to perform complex analysis and prediciton on share prices. This, along with the last 5 years' prices for the various stocks were fed in to the bank's modelling systems running on a Cray to predict their exposure on the markets in real-time to ensure they didn't close the day with balance ratios that broke the banking regulations. They earned insane money but IMHO they deserved it. I sat in on a presentation they did that was supposed to be a high level overview but frankly I was lost after the 'Good morning ladies and gentleman' bit.
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
It's only natural for the most talented people with the widest array of knowledge to not know what they want to do - too much interests them.
For someone with a focused desire, what's their excuse for not pursuing it with a diploma?
Aside from which, in 95% of work, if a would-be employee tells you the job you're offering is just what they always wanted, it's just a line. If people were honest, 75%+ of resumes would start with:
Objective: Make as much money as I can, with as little time as I can.
Since she is an experienced teacher with extremely good recommendations, I wonder if it would have been possible to get a master's degree very quickly by turning in a portfolio?
As another child-of-a-teacher, I can answer that - with a simple "no".
Education departments don't quite work like most others. They form a very rigid little clique, and strongly discourage any marketable second majors or minors* (warning sign #1, IMO - they want to make damned sure you have no easy escape once you start). And while politics plays far too heavy of a role in getting any degree, Education basically amounts to "shut up, drink the kool-ade, and think what we tell you to".
Most "good" old-school teachers can't deal with such complete BS, and either take early retirement (if available), move to private or university education, or change careers completely.
But have no fear, the next gen of children will have the best-indoctrinated socialized baby-sitters ever. And while they might graduate without knowing basic arithmetic, cheer up, they'll have great self-esteem that their senior project, completing "Coloring with Elmo and Me", received an "A".
* at my uni, you literally had to twist the rules to the breaking point to get a minor in education - They "officially" had one, but didn't let any non-ed-majors into the classes. In order to get the minor, you had to declare yourself an education major at the end of your Sophmore year, take 15+ Education credits that couldn't possibly apply in any way to your "real" major (which would thus technically satisfy the department-nonspecific conditions for a minor), then switch majors the next semester (oddly, the same technicality this exploited also required less than 30 credits in that subject) which, the way other majors tended to schedule classes, would all but preclude you graduating in under five years).
Of course, it takes quite a few years and a lot of work to get a Ph.D, so take that into consideration -- make sure you like it.
Another option that a few people have mentioned is financial services. A lot of brokerage firms on Wall Street love to hire math majors with CS knowledge. The math is needed for financial modeling and the CS is needed in order to implement those models in actual trading programs. Out of all of my classmates who work at companies, about half have chosen this route. Contrary to what a lot of the comments here have stated, it is in fact quite possible to get a job in a trading firm with only a bachelors degree, but of course your salary will be lower than if you had a Ph.D.
It is definitely not true that math majors have no jobs. If your parents need convincing, look up the recent Business Week cover story from a few months ago about the exploding number of job opportunities for math majors in the current information driven economy. The myth that math majors only have teaching jobs is something that was maybe possibly true 20-30 years ago when computers were not a big deal and manufacturing was dominant, but it's not true anymore. Nowadays math majors are in higher demand than ever because tech skills are so complex that employers increasingly look for more foundational training such as a mathematics background as opposed to someone who has already specialized in some narrow subject area before even leaving school.