Lenovo Preloading SUSE Linux on ThinkPad

An anonymous reader writes "For years, the holy grail of the Linux desktop has been to get a major computer vendor to commit to preloading a Linux desktop. It's finally happened! Lenovo has made a deal with Novell to preload SUSE Linux 10 on its ThinkPad T60p mobile workstation. Ironically, in June, Lenovo was in hot-water with Linux fans because an executive had said that the company would no longer support Linux on its ThinkPad line. But the company did a quick about-turn. Who knows, maybe Mr. Dell will finally get the message, too?"

Comments

Don't forget...

[SCO$699FeeTroll]

...to pay your $699 licensing fee you cock-smoking teabaggers.

First post

[milatchi]

First Post, Bam!

Re:First post

[rjmars97]

Or not! Bam!

Re:First post

[joshuapurcell]

Lenovo never said that it wouldn't be supporting Linux on its Thinkpad line... it is just as much of a misquote now as it was then. The guy interviewed was a someone who didn't have anything to do with their Thinkpad brand, and was in fact talking about another Lenovo product (although I don't remember what product that was).

Re:First post

[Cosmix]

He was talking about the other line (non thinkpad) of Lenovo laptops.

Now Buy some.

[Anonymous Coward]

Now its just your jobs to start buying some, to show its a worthy business model.

Re:Now Buy some.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't, because Lenovo laptops have TPMs (AKA Trusted Computing, Treacherous Computing, hardware DRM) in them.

Let me be the first to say...

[chicagotypewriter]

this is sweet.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[couchslug]

It will be sweet if customers actually BUY the things.
A nice discount over the Windows machines would help, since even if buyers use the discount just to get cheaper machines (and load Windows later) the sales would be good for publicity.
The problem with pre-loading Linux is that most Linux users are picky about which distro and what setup they want. They could just as well buy a computer with no OS, considering how little effort it takes to get Linux installed on supported hardware these days. With distros like Kanotix you can even surf the web during the installation.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Fred_A]

But the advantage with preloading Linux is that you know that since the preloaded distro worked, your distro of choice will presumably be gotten to work as well. You even have a working model to examine.

I know I'd rather start from a SuSE laptop, even if I didn't want to run SuSE than from a random Windows one.

Mr. Dell?

[drinkypoo]

Who knows, maybe Mr. Dell will finally get the message, too?

Yeah, like he did about AMD. (Hint: try to actually buy a AMD-based server.)

Re:Mr. Dell?

[Doctor Memory]

Dell is stating that they will be introducing AMD-based servers "by the end of the year" in their first-quarter financial statement. Should make for great stocking-stuffers for all those little corps this Xmas!

Re:Mr. Dell?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, I don't know. What we have to remember is that, to the majority of consumers, Intel is still the big name. Dell can't afford to just drop Intel right now and as such, has merely given itself a back channel to AMD through the purchase of Alienware.

As we all know, AMD has made a purchase of its own recently (pending approval?), ATI. If this combo comes to fruition - and AMD pushes ATI to fix its drivers, I wouldn't be surprised to a Dell come out with system with an AMD cpu, ATI graphics chip, and Linux pre-loaded in 2-3 yrs.

This kind of combination would work for all involved. Namely, Dell can get a better profit margin, AMD and ATI get bulk sales and Linux breaks through on the desktop (to an extent). The consumer gets a damn good product (and arguably more secure one) at a good price.

Probably just wishful thinking but, hey, I'm an optimist.

Re:Mr. Dell?

[ender-]

Dell is stating that they will be introducing AMD-based servers "by the end of the year" in their first-quarter financial statement. Should make for great stocking-stuffers for all those little corps this Xmas!

You know, the timing of that makes me wonder. I don't think that it is outside the realm of possibility that Dell and Intel have been talking about the future. It wouldn't suprise me if Intel went to Dell and said:

"Hey, we've got some server processors coming out at the end of 2006 [Core 2 Duo based Xeons] that will kick the crap out of the Opteron's. Why don't you announce support for AMD based servers around that same time. People will think you're finally going to do it, but once they see how fast our stuff is, nobody will actually buy an AMD server. It'll prop up the hopes of AMD and their fanboys, then Wham! AMD gets nothing, and you get to have another solid excuse for never again threatening to carry AMD products. You will of course get an extra discount on Intel products for going along with this..."

I'm sure it was a little more subtle than that, but the gist may have been the same.

Then again, what the heck do I know? :)

ender-

/Actually an AMD fanboy.
//but those Core 2 Duo's sure do look tempting

Re:Mr. Dell?

[b0s0z0ku]

Who knows, maybe Mr. Dell will finally get the message, too?

Well, they are offering Precision 380 workstations with Redhat Enterprise pre-installed. A step in the right direction.

-b.

Minor vendor, major vendor

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

"For years, the holy grail of the Linux desktop has been to get a major computer vendor to commit to preloading a Linux desktop."

What does it tell you when all of the "minor" computer vendors who did commit to preloading a Linux desktop failed to get promoted to "major" computer vendors?

Re:Minor vendor, major vendor

[kfg]

It's hard to beat an incumbent?

KFG

Re:Minor vendor, major vendor

[Excelsior]

Nice logic, good point....NOT. For every minor vendor that commited to preloading Linux and never became major, there are thousands of vendors that are commited exclusively to Windows and never became major. For reference, see pricewatch.com or Computer Shopper. Good try though.

Re:Minor vendor, major vendor

[sloanster]

um, the same thing it tells you when all the "minor" computer vendors who load *only* ms windoze fail to get promoted to "major" computer vendors?

Re:Minor vendor, major vendor

[Stonehand]

It is quite consistent with a small potential market. After all, if there were huge demand for machines with Linux pre-installed, and there were only minor vendors offering them, you'd expect that these minor vendors would have benefited significantly -- since there wouldn't be so much competition for these customers.

Your comparison is not particularly relevant since

(small Linux-based vendor) vs. (non-existent large Linux-based vendor)

gives the former a better chance than

(small Windows-based vendor) vs (several very large Windows-based vendors)

if customers actually care about getting a Linux desktop.

Re:Minor vendor, major vendor

[westlake]

Nice logic, good point....NOT. For every minor vendor that commited to preloading Linux and never became major, there are thousands of vendors that are commited exclusively to Windows and never became major

You can be insignificant in the Windows market when compared to giants like Dell and still outweigh your Linux competitors.

Re:Minor vendor, major vendor

[someone300]

Except that you can buy a Windows system and install Linux to it usually, and it will usually still be cheaper due to Dell being larger and producing more PCs.

Re:Minor vendor, major vendor

[Anonymous Coward]

What this tells me is when I bought the laptop I am writing this on I bought it from a "Minor" vendor. (http://www.linuxcertified.com) I did for a laugh call the "Big Boys" but we they said "We only do Windows" I said "Watch my money go somewhere else!" Actually the little guys do a better job at support and all. This is the damn best machine I've ever used.

About time

[rjmars97]

I've always loved the IBM Thinkpads but have had doubts about the ability of Lenovo to matain the same quality. I've been looking at getting another Thinkpad, and Lenovo offering a Linux distro may be a good enough reason to try them out. Its not my favorite distro, but its deinetly a great foot in the door for Linux, which is something I can definetly support.

Re:About time

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't kid yourself, sizzlechest. Those thinkpads were made in China before IBM sold off that division.

Re:About time

[kfg]

Ahhhhhhh, a rose by any other name; probably wouldn't sell as well.

KFG

Re:About time

[cunina]

The top-of-the-line ThinkPads weren't made in China then, nor are they now.

Re:About time

[Penguin Programmer]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as it says ThinkPad on it, it'll be the same quality we expect from a ThinkPad. The ThinkPad name and look are so associated with IBM that IBM will make sure Lenovo keeps quality up.

Just my two cents.

Re:About time

[(H)elix1]

I'm using a t60p right now with SLES 10 on it. Very nice hardware - on par with the t42p, t40p, and t30 before it. The only 'extra' bit of work for the t60 series was they switched over to a SATA HDD and a dual core CPU, which was not an issue but took a bit more work than the IDE drives and single CPU in the earlier laptops. Took forever to get the 2x2G sticks of RAM, but that would be my only beef. The rest is pretty nice kit.

Re:About Time

[Anonymous Coward]

I love my T42. I put in a 100 GB Seagate and have dual boot with XP and FC5.

But when I asked the tech support folks for a linux driver for the funky Atheros WiFi card, they said in effect - "we didn't sell it to you with linux on it, therefore we're not responsible."

The message I sent them saying they might sell more laptops if they provided some assistance anyway - went unanswered :-(

Re:About time

[Dhalka226]

I just bought a Thinkpad a few months ago (late May-ish) and it's a real beaut. It's a T60; it runs great, there is absolutely no heat issues which I was a little worried about with the dual cores, battery time is good. All in all I'm very happy with the purchase and I wouldn't recommend you worry at all about the ownership change. It's a great laptop.

My laptop isn't running SuSE so I can't comment on that.

Re:About Time

[infosec_spaz]

T40, T41 and T42 all work just dandy with SuSE, as well as Debian based OS's

Re:About Time

[infosec_spaz]

Try NDISwrapper, it works just fine...Granted, if you are a purest, this is non-open software technically, so if you don't mind loading it using the afore mentioned software, it will work like a champ.

Re:About time

[Wolfrider]

We just rolled out over 10 Lenovo T60 laptops for a client.

--I was impressed with:

o How cool they ran
o Battery life
o Their implementation of the eraser-head mouse interface is the best I've seen on any laptop
o The LCD Displays are nice
o Wireless is built-in yet can be turned off via hardware switch
o Gigabit Ethernet along with dual-core CPU

--Wasn't impressed with:
o SATA hard drives (XP came out in 2001 - if you have to do a bare-metal (re)install of XP, first you have to F6 the SATA driver; and also make sure it's on your Bart CD.)

--All in all, a pretty nice, lightweight little laptop. But I wouldn't buy one personally without verifying that Linux was compatible with everything in it first, out of the box.

Re:About Time

[MSTCrow5429]

I've used up to SuSE 9.3 on them, quite disasterous.

Re:About time

[GaryOlson]

...as long as it says ThinkPad on it, it'll be the same quality we expect from a ThinkPad...

Unfortunately not. Although minor, all twelve of the the Thinkpads by Lenovo I have purchased have all had quality problems -- unlike the t40s previous. The most telling was the keyboard I could not replace because the phillips screw heads were stripped when the keyboard was installed.

The design and engineering are still sound; but, manufacturing is slipping.

Re:About time

[Bert64]

Because designs are finalised well in advance of manufacture (ie, the designs are still IBM designs...) just wait

Re:About Time

[Bert64]

Dont do that...
Atheros cards are really well supported, the drivers are called "madwifi" and support 802.11a/b/g (on supported cards), are very stable (im using one right now) and support monitor mode properly (wardriving!)

the site is www.madwifi.org

Re:About Time

[infosec_spaz]

WOW! Nice. I had not heard of those. I am going to give them a shot right now! I have been using the ndiswrapper for so long, I have not kept up on newer happenings I guess.

If the price is right

[Anonymous Coward]

If they are alot cheaper then preloading with windows then I think alot of people would go for this route. If not then I would say forget it.

http://www.thesecondchancemovie.com/_site/mediapla yer/index.php?id=9f72b0fbe5bde711a0696cac5b339a5e

About Time

[MSTCrow5429]

Would have been nice if they had one that when I bought my T42. Oh well, better late than never.

hardware is a commodity business

[User 956]

Who knows, maybe Mr. Dell will finally get the message, too?

Dell understands that the hardware business is a commodity business. There's two ways to make money in a commodity business; a. volume, and b. premium marketing

They've mostly maxed out the profit-through-volume business model, so perhaps it would be a good time for them to start positioning certain products in the 'premium' space. Linux enthusiasts are willing to pay more for a product that caters to their tastes. Case in point: the WRT54G-L router from Linksys.

Re:hardware is a commodity business

[westlake]

perhaps it would be a good time for them to start positioning certain products in the 'premium' space.

They have. In their XPS and Alienware lines.

Small market

[The Great Pretender]

I don't see this as any real big thing. The linux market is still dedicated to the smaller, tenacious demographic (before the flames engulf me I use Ubuntu on my Dell X300). Unless Novell is committed to supporting the operating system in a way more comprehensive manner than M$oft purports to support windows, it's just never going to grow significantly in the short-term. And lets face it, the target truely is the IT admin who's kitting out the workers. A person who's going to order 10's - 100's of units at a time. Now if they're smart, they'll put minimal resources into this until the user base increases enough for a significant cash injection. Be first at the line and capture the tidal wave of change. I really hope they don't just leave the decision to the quarterly bean counters.

Re:Small market

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I agree. What I see is a lot of computer enthusiasts that really don't understand that there are target markets, and of course, business size. Granted, Dell is probably very strong in the business market but it looks to me that their strong point is the general consumer market, and that Lenovo's strength is the business market. Lenovo is probably targeting a niche market here. The mobile workstation market is very, very small (T60p includes a FireGL graphics chip) and starts at $1900, a win of Lenovo here doesn't mean that there's any pressure on Dell to introduce it as an option for Dell's consumer systems. In other words, don't let this announcement increase excitement of the possibility of Linux as standard or supported on a $600 Dell notebook.

Re:Small market

[AtomicBomb]

The impact is not revolutionary but it is definitely a positive step. When a manufacturer commits to the idea of making a laptop which can preloaded with Linux, it will make more effort in selecting hardware component or forcing the component OEMs to provide (at least half ass working) driver. This can make the IT manager's life easier: buy a particular brand of laptop and you don't need to care whether the particular user at the end need a windows or linux config.

Re:Small market

[maxwell demon]

This is especially important since they probably will ship the exact same hardware configuration with Windows. That is, hardware vendors have a better chance to get on their preloaded Windows offerings if that hardware is supported by Linux. Which is a big advantage for Linux even if the number of preloaded Linux sales is small compared to the Windows sales. That number just has to be high enough that the sale isn't stopped (i.e. selling the Linux machines must have an net advantage).

Preloaded Lenova

[joshsnow]

If you lived in the UK, you can buy a Lenova/IBM thinkpad with linux preloaded already, from here

Re:Preloaded Lenova

[rubinson]

And in the U.S., you've been able to get them for years from EmperorLinux. (That's where I got mine.) That's still qualitatively distinct from having it come from the OEM.

Re:Preloaded Lenova

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, and you can even buy special cables to hook your Lenova up to your Sorny TV or your Panaphonics stereo!

Re:Preloaded Lenova

[dodobh]

If you are in India, you can preloaded Linux from Acer, Compaq/HP and a few other brands.

when will the website reflect that?

[Anonymous Coward]

go here http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/notebooks/thinkpad/t-seri es/index.html then click customize. So far it still only has XP home and pro as options

Hmmmm

[wookychewbacca]

IBM has got some quality product. Im interested to see this new direction..... http://www.thesecondchancemovie.com/_site/mediapla yer/index.php?id=9f72b0fbe5bde711a0696cac5b339a5e

American Way

[Doc Ruby]

Chinese company will preinstall Linux when American competitors will not. Instead they're sticking with Microsoft, even when the new MS OS won't be good for customers for years. This country is really starting to look stupid from every angle.

Re:American Way

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because it saves them the overhead of paying for Windows when their consumers will just pirate it anyway

Re:American Way

[b0s0z0ku]

Instead they're sticking with Microsoft, even when the new MS OS won't be good for customers for years.

Well, if you want to wave the American flag, I suppose you *should* stick with M$. They're still very much an American company that provides many jobs in certain regions of the US. Some stuff has been outsourced, but not even close to everything, and certainly not the important development work.

Linux, on the other hand, was Not Invented Here ;)

-b.

Re:American Way

[Doc Ruby]

The American Way: wave a (made in China) American flag whenever something has an American label, and turn your back on anything even vaguely "foreign".

How about that Microsoft monopoly abuse decision? They abuse Americans. How about that MS corporate tax payment? They don't pay any, but Americans have to pay for all the government services they consume - including all the government SW revenue we pay for.

Linux, on the other hand, is an essential tool for millions of taxpaying Americans. Which represents the best American traditions of hard individual work paying off in results rewarded by merit, not corporate leverage. And it's an immigrant which has brought its experience to build America, in the best American tradition.

Re:American Way

[Doc Ruby]

Moderation +1
    40% Insightful
    20% Troll
    20% Informative

23% of Americans are authoritarian lemmings who worship power. 20% TrollMod seems about right - even encouraging.

Re:American Way

[b0s0z0ku]

Linux, on the other hand, is an essential tool for millions of taxpaying Americans. Which represents the best American traditions of hard individual work paying off in results rewarded by merit, not corporate leverage. And it's an immigrant which has brought its experience to build America, in the best American tradition.

I guess you didn't see where my tongue was when I posted my post - firmly in cheek :) Myself, I use a red-blooded 'merkin OS - BSD - named after UC Berkeley, Calif... Yeehaw!

-b.

Re:American Way

[Doc Ruby]

I saw the smileys, but I get a lot of people smiling while they "whistle Dixie" these days. Your points were real, though sarcastic, but not explicit enough to preempt my own unironic description.

I guess if Americans who care about our country, but are honest about the truth, without getting too crazy about it, find it so hard to even understand each other, it's hard to solve the problems.

Of course..

[slummy]

IBM owns Novell, Novell owns SUSE. There you have it folks. Good to see GNU/Linux making it's way into the mainstream. Now we've got to get someone pre-loading Slackware.

Re:Of course..

[greatcelerystalk]

I'm a Slackware user myself; I normally use Slackware 10.2 on an Inspiron 1000, and I just recently ordered an E1505 which will most likely be loaded with Slackware. However, I don't think Slackware is a good candidate for pre-loading onto consumer machines, or business machines for that matter.

I use Slackware because, despite its lack of GUI configurators, it's highly customizable and fairly easy (if time consuming) to configure. It took me two years of using Slackware to get to that point. I'm very particular about the way my computer handles certain events. I don't like to automount removable media, for example, and I'm picky about which packages are installed. In other words, I'd just reconfigure the installation anyhow.

Most administrators I know are similarly picky and customize the Slackware installation routine specifically for their needs. Buying pre-loaded machines probably wouldn't save them any time, either.

What are the target markets for machines with Linux pre-loaded? Business desktop/notebook users by the look of things. Given that, it seems that a company like Dell would do better to pick something like Ubuntu with machine-specific drivers included.

As Dell noted, Linux users tend to be shippers for their favorite distro, and they gripe when they perceive their distro as being slighted. The Linux community tends to setup a no-win situation. Dell goes out on a limb and ships machines with RedHat, there's not much of a market in the general consumer/business world, and they stop.

Linux community complains again.

Re:Of course..

[Anonymous Coward]

IBM does not own Novell, Novell is a publicly traded company that IBM has invested some money in as a way to broaden Linux support.
IBM no longer owns the Thinkpad line either, they sold it to Lenovo, so your entire premise is just plain wrong.

Re:Of course..

[Sr. Zezinho]

>IBM owns Novell

No, they don't.

Re:Of course..

[(H)elix1]

But many of the IBM'ers in the German labs liked SuSE, so most of the blue stack - DB2, WebSphere, etc - seems to get developed on SuSE and then 'ported' to other distros. RH also works, but it was not as common (from what I've seen) as SuSE. (Yes, Suse now... I know)

Re:Of course..

[Gooner]

Yeah IBM has only invested in Novell. Now of course these days Novell is a popular target for takeover rumours due to the issue of Novell's inability to market themselves. But that doesn't mean that either IBM or say Oracle own them... yet. :)

Like IBM's Linux T20

[Dr. Evil]

For years, the holy grail of the Linux desktop has been to get a major computer vendor to commit to preloading a Linux desktop. It's finally happened!

2647-L1U. It was done a long time ago.

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/quickPa th.do?quickPathEntry=2647-l1u

Re:Like IBM's Linux T20

[hritcu]

> 2647-L1U. It was done a long time ago.

That was still IBM, not Lenovo.

Old news

[Anonymous Coward]

IBM had a Thinkpad 600 preloaded with Red Hat back in, oh, 99?

Better for other distros too

[Harmonious Botch]

Even if it's not your favoite distro, the drivers will be similar, so installation will still be easier.

Complaining is a commodity business

[Anonymous Coward]

"Case in point: the WRT54G-L router from Linksys."

Poor example

Dell did this 5 years ago

[pyros]

Dell was selling Latitude's with Red Hat pre-installed in the late nineties, lasted until at least 2002, then they canceled it due to lack of customer interest. I hope Lenovo sees better results (they should given how much Linux has improved since then).

Re:Dell did this 5 years ago

[BiggerIsBetter]

There's a lot of interest in SLED 10, so I think it will work out differently this time. Every review I've seen puts it at least on a par with Windows XP Pro for business users, so I think that Lenovo has got their choice of timing and partner right.

Lenovo and the GPL

[Quiberon]

The deal used to be that Lenovo wouldn't supply you with 3rd-party GPL software; but if you supplied Lenovo with the software you wanted (e.g. SuSE Linux) then they would cheerfully install it for you. Looks like this has changed.

I don't know whether it has to do with the 'NO WARRANTY' ... Lenovo presumably like offering warranties ... or the requirement to make source code available, or something else about the 'aggressively free' GPL.

Re:Lenovo and the GPL

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect the concern over distributing third-party GPLed software had to do with the grant of an implicit patent license to GPLed software for any of your patents implemented in the software (since you can't sue to stop distribution of the software).

They were in talks then

[porkThreeWays]

I think that comment was really stupid whoever made it. Fact is, when the comment about no linux was made, they were already in talks with Novell about preloading linux. That's why it seems weird. I think that was a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing. The left hand was ignorant of Linux and gave the normal "we don't support linux" answer that most hardware vendors like to belt out. All the while the right hand was working out the deal with Novell.

Video

[Joe The Dragon]

Will the laptop come with the ATI 3d video drivers instll or will have to install them yourself?

Re:Video

[Anonymous Coward]

ATI 3D Linux drivers? * LOL * Take a look what Linux users think of ATI drivers: http://www.rage3d.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=61

Re:Video

[Anonymous Coward]

And how is that different than the roadkill of http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f =14 - 20 new problem threads each day???

Mr. Dell -- the grand violator of GNU GPL!

[Anonymous Coward]

Mr. Dell should not be distributing Linux at all. Even before IBM shipped Linux pre-installed, they at least recognized that when they distribute a GPL covered work they need to also provide a copy of the license.

Dell still publically demostrates they can violate Clause 1 of the GPL by distributing the Linux kernel, busybox and other GPL works without providing a copy of the GPL. They admitted that adding the GPL to the tar ball would be cheap, easy and something they are required by the license to do and yet three years later they still have choosen not to do it.

Btw, this is just one of many examples of Dell violating the GPL over and over again.

Re:Mr. Dell -- the grand violator of GNU GPL!

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought a Dell n-series laptop[0] last January, and it came with FreeDOS and a printed copy of the GPL. So the source where you heard about them not providing the license is out of date at best.

[0] for the same price as the one with Windows - they're not *that* OSS-friendly

Anyone find a link to something you can buy?

[Mad Merlin]

They're worth buying even just to vote for Linux with your dollars.

I was planning on sticking with my current Thinkpad for awhile longer, but this is almost reason enough to get a new one.

So, where can we buy one?

Re:Anyone find a link to something you can buy?

[Anonymous Coward]

not on the website

Too bad...

[MsGeek]

...that quality has gone WAY DOWN on the Lenovo-designed ThinkPads.

Re:Too bad...

[2ms]

please provide links or something. I am genuinely interested in knowing how Lenova ThinkPad quality compares to IBM ThinkPad quality

Re:Too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

I ran over my R52 with my car about a month ago. I was shitting bricks since it was purchased by my employer. I took it out of the shredded gym bag it was in (caught it with both wheels, ba-BUMP ba-BUMP). Other than shaving off the plastic on one of the corners, the thing is *fine*. I was worried about a quality drop with Lenova too, but as far as I'm concerned, they are still tanks.

Re:Too bad...

[gkitty]

I have an SXGA t22 (made in Mexico by IBM) and a UXGA t43p (designed by IBM, made in China by Lenovo) and to the extent there is any quality difference, the Lenovo wins. Slightly better keyboard, trackpoint, display, case solidity, etc. My t43p is a quantum leap ahead in features and crushes the t22 in CPU, video, memory, disk i/o, battery life etc. I can't help but notice that the t43 scrolls a terminal window faster with the output of a kernel build than the t22 can dump text using 'cat'. (Stupid benchmark I know!) For surfing the web and data entry, there is surprisingly little difference between them and I forget which one I am using.

FWIW, both systems triple boot Windows, Kubuntu, and FreeBSD. I had to do a bunch of minor tweaking to get Linux & BSD working well on the t22 (driver config to keep X from freezing, etc). On the t43 Kubuntu and FreeBSD basically 'work' out of the box but there's a bunch of tweaking the user must do to duplicate the functionality of the generally excellent IBM windows software; things like hibernation and battery-longevity-enhanching behaviour (etc etc ...) are left as an exercise for the user. I don't mind too much but I have better things to do with my time and it takes a while to get it all nearly as good as Windows. (And for the defensive, obviously there are things I prefer about Linux & BSD.)

If anyone believes Lenovo is very different from past Thinkpad factories, your experience is different than mine. My T22 has always been excellent. The T43 is a lot more of the same, just a bit better.

Re:Too bad...

[Bert64]

T42 (last IBM design i believe)
T43 (First lenovo ?)

T42 has a radeon card with 32mb dedicated videoram
T43 has an intel integrated video chipset

T42 has an intel 1gbps ethernet controller
T43 has a broadcom 1gbps ethernet controller (far less stable than the intel one, slower, and causes more cpu usage)

T42 has standard ide drives
T43 has SATA, a step forward i guess

and the external flat panels that came with them, the newer lenovo one seems a lot cheaper in terms of casing

YAY! It's not Ubuntu!

[martinultima]

Please, feel free to mod me "-1, Troll" – I'm just glad to see it isn't yet another bloody Ubuntu slashvertisement. FINALLY!

If it's not an Apple, it sucks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Faster. Sleeker. Cooler (in style and temp). Why would you want a Stinkpad running Linsux when you can have God's own MacBook Pro running the greatest OS ever made, OS X?

Hmmmm..

[GmAz]

I wonder if the price of that laptop will come down since there won't be a cost of licensing any Windows products. Or will they keep it up and pocket the extra profit.

Re:Hmmmm..

[westlake]

I wonder if the price of that laptop will come down since there won't be a cost of licensing any Windows products. Or will they keep it up and pocket the extra profit.

There are giant economies of scale in a market which is 95-98% Windows. One of the reasons why OEM Linux has all but disappeared from Walmart.com.

Re:Hmmmm..

[rs232]

"There are giant economies of scale in a market which is 95-98% Windows"

Do you mean for the cost of hardware or software. Once the OS is made it's about zero cost to duplicate.

"One of the reasons why OEM Linux has all but disappeared from Walmart.com"

Balance CN4949 14.1" Laptop, 1.0 GHz VIA C3 Processor
OUT OF STOCK ...

Let's wait until we see the advertisement...

[jesterpilot]

Whether this will make a difference or not, depends on the effort Lenovo is going to put into the advertisement. Will they offer it on a dusty corner of their website, just for the folks who use Linux anyway? Or will they have it more prominent on their websites and ads, like "New! Linux now made easy for everyone. Be the first non-geek enjoying Linux!"

This being said....

[Cherita Chen]

I have been running SUSE 10.1 on my thinkpad T43p for several months. SUSE seems to be the only distro that has implemented the Intel wireless (ipw2200) card correctly (firmware, driver, etc...), as well as provide support for Bluetooth. Red Hat and Fedora both require that you do download the firmware, and re-install the ipw2200 drivers before the wireless card will work correctly. And I wish you luck w/the Bluetooth. In fact, I can honestly say, that this was the first time that I have ever installed a Linux distro on one of my ThinkPad's (I have owned 5 total), and had everything work correctly right after install. Coincidence?

This said, I am now sure that they (Novell) have been planning on supporting the IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad(s) for a quite some time...

Re:This being said....

[chmod a x mojo]

Hmmm, Suse is not only good for thinkpads. My Compaq v5101US is also supported quite nicly "out of the box". The only driver issue i had was with the broadcom wireless card, and that was a simple issue to install the windows drivers through ndiswrapper. The only other thing i could complain about would be no 3D accell from my PCIe radeon card, and that is not a distro specific fault.
I have tried other distros on the same laptop, RH was ok, but didn't have network manager implemented with KDE, ubuntu had some odd IRQ issues and wouldn't use my wireless card... it recognised it and knew it was there but could not access it for some reason. Suse has alway "just worked" (or at least worked the best) for my laptops. Not to mention you have "apt-4-suse" an apt4rpm tool so you can use apt-get in suse to upgrade/ install packages.
I have heard that there is now broadcom support directly in the newer kernel sources now, i hope that my card is supported. Alas i am to lazy to search for it fr now, maybe if ndiswrapper stops working i will look into it.

Re:This being said....

[JazzCrazed]

The latest version of Ubuntu (6.06) worked with my Intel 2915 in my Acer Aspire with no need to configure anything. In the preceding version of Ubuntu (5.10), I had to manually install the ipw drivers; though even that was pretty straightforward.

Re:This being said....

[wirah]

Yes, ubuntu had full support for both my wireless minipci cards.

One is an Intel ProWireless 2200bg
and
Ones is an Intel ProWireless 28xxabg (or something).

Even funnier, the 28xx one is totally unstable in windows, disconnects constantly, and under Ubuntu Linux it's perfect. Go figure.

If it's not an Apple ][, it sucks. [NT]

[Nimey]

en tee

Re:If it's not an Apple ][, it sucks. [NT]

[1u3hr]

Maybe you can tell me WTF this "Apple ][" symbology is. It was the second Apple model, right? Isn't it a Roman 2, i.e. II? So is this just a silly word game to show who are the true Illuminati, like "unixen", etc?

Re:If it's not an Apple ][, it sucks. [NT]

[Nimey]

See Wikipedia's entry. That symbology was on not only the case, but when you booted up the model number (also with ][) would show at the top of the screen. Likewise with my old Apple //c and the IIgs.

There is no cabal.

If you have money for T60, why use Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Third worlds I can see using Linux on the desktop, but who, with money to spend, uses Linux? That's like taking the bus to work when everyone else there has a Ferrari.

Re:If you have money for T60, why use Linux?

[Stemp]

Are you comparing MS OS to a Ferrari ?

It's at most a badly designed and built Honda civic.

Re:If you have money for T60, why use Linux?

[Dr. Evil]

The Civic is a great car, a marvel of economical engineering. I'd even say it is a more impressive feat than any Ferrari and has a huge community following.

Windows is more like a Tiburon. Lots of style, lots of hype, it works... but it sucks, depreciatees fast, is easily 0wn3d and has a mysteriously lousy engine.

Re:If you have money for T60, why use Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Linux as my primary desktop and have for several years. It isn't a matter of price, it is a matter of choice. I choose not to have *my* data locked in some proprietory format. I choose to use open standards. I choose when, where, and how I upgrade my system. I choose...well, you get the idea!

Re:If you have money for T60, why use Linux?

[Billly Gates]

"The Civic is a great car, a marvel of economical engineering. I'd even say it is a more impressive feat than any Ferrari and has a huge community following"

Speaking as a former owner of a Honda Civic I find that particular statemement terrifying. I sold mine for $100 and still owe $2500 in repairs.

For example the timing belt chain is made of rubber and the engine is setup in such a way that the cylinders will smash into each other and wreck the engine when it breaks. Its an interference engine.

So every 60,000 miles your engine could be damaged if you forget to replace your rubber chain.

Brilliant engineering!

Also I had the struts go out every 10k miles instead of 40k which was quite strange.

No I never had that issue but I had nothing but problems iwth mine and I do admit it had over 100k miles but it performed more like a chevy or kia than a japanesse car after 115k miles and everything went out on it. My parents Nissan lasted for nearly 300k miles.

I now own a hyundia and glad I bought it.

Re:If you have money for T60, why use Linux?

[Billly Gates]

Typo ... I meant the pistons slam into the cylinders if the timing belt chain breaks.

Re:If you have money for T60, why use Linux?

[kabz]

Try pistons slamming into the valves ...

Timing belt on my Peugeot 205Gti snapped and bent a bunch of valves. Ouch.

Timing belt on my Miata, tow to the dealer, ready next day, though tensioner and seals pushed the total up to $800. Ouch.

Re:If you have money for T60, why use Linux?

[Billly Gates]

If the engine is an interference engine then a metal timing chain should be used. Not a rubber belt unless of course its a non interference engine. Then if it snaps no engine damage will be done. Still your supposed to replace them every 60,000 miles.

Re:If you have money for T60, why use Linux?

[Dr. Evil]

I bought my Civic for $500 and got $4k from the insurance company when an SUV rear-ended me.

I replaced it with a Hyundai Accent. A replacemnet Civic would be too expensive, they're holding their value too well, and the new ones aren't as good quality as the old ones. 1992-1996 were the best years for reliabilty, the previous generation has better handling though.

Repairs are very cheap on the Civic. I replaced my engine, clutch and an axel for $1600. The engine needed to be rebuilt at 350,000 km, but it was cheaper to replace the engine than to repair it.

BTW, Hyundai uses timing belts on an interference based engine too. At least in the Accent. I had to replace mine at 100,000 km.

For storage space, comfort, handling, fuel efficiency, rust protection, insurance and cost of repairs, the Civic was better. The Accent has a little more pep, but it guzzles gas for such a small car.

Re:If you have money for T60, why use Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm running Debian on a T43 along with XP for playing games, and I did compare how things works.

It's true! There's a huge difference between the two OSes. Debian is way faster for everything!

From booting, to browsing, or selecting menus, every single things are faster on Debian, and it is much more configurable! You can arrange every single parts of the system to fit exactly your needs. The only one drawback I can think about is the 3D rendering which is very poor compared to XP because of the Intel driver. So this is why I kept XP.. as a toy.

It makes me laugh when people believe they are running the best software on the best hardware just because they spent a lot of money. Just because things are expensives and used by millions of newbies does not make them better!

Why this matters

[mrfantasy]

Novell employees are required to use SLED as their primary desktop. The majority of Novell employees have ThinkPad laptops (T42 and T43s). I imagine the T60p will now be the new Novell employee laptop.

I'm also hoping this extends to over ThinkPads in some form. I have the T60 (similar but an ATI graphics adapter) and would like some of these features when I run SLED 10. I'm particularly interested in getting power management similar to what we get in Windows, with full suspend mode support, better special key support, etc.

Re:Why this matters

[Anonymous Coward]

ATI has been adding support for mobile features over the last few releases.

Powerplay (battery -> performance) mode,
Display switching
hotplug

Lots of the things that pepole have been needed for mobile use.

Re:Why this matters

[ladoga]

I'm also hoping this extends to over ThinkPads in some form. I have the T60 (similar but an ATI graphics adapter) and would like some of these features when I run SLED 10. I'm particularly interested in getting power management similar to what we get in Windows, with full suspend mode support, better special key support, etc.

In my experience hardware in ThinkPads (atleast centrino ones) is very well supported on linux. I have a Thinkpad x41 running Debian testing and everything except HDAPS works. Linux driver for HD protection through APS accelerometer exists, but it needs recompiling the kernel. There was a slashdot article just few days ago about using it for knock commands. http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/0 7/30/1710201&from=rss

All special keys work. http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_get_special_k eys_to_work As for power management; CPU throttling, suspend to ram (fine since 2.6.16), hibernate, hd power management, wifi power management and radio soft power switch all work.

Presumably....

[Anonymous Coward]

...it's the commercial version of SUSE, which is somewhat cheaper than Windows, but not so much that they'd make a killing on the profit.

Won't this just encourage piracy?

[bunbuntheminilop]

I know I know. I'm probably trolling. I like the idea that I could buy a computer and the hardware will work under tux.

I don't, however, like the fact that people will just put pirate copies of XP on it. Piracy hurts the tux!

Re:Won't this just encourage piracy?

[miro f]

That's what Microsoft wants us to think.

It will depend on what kind of support Windows gets on it. If it doesn't come with a driver disc then it's going to be a bit of a pain to install...

Re:Won't this just encourage piracy?

[wwwillem]

Given that HW manufacturers pay only couple of bucks (don't know the exact number, but I understand it's around $30) for the Windows license, I would guess that Lenovo will price this SUSE TP the same as an XP ThinkPad. So, there will be no real price advantage in buying a Linux notebook and then putting an illegal copy of Windows on it. I could be wrong, but that's my guess.

Can't find it on the website

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it is too early, but right now when I go to their website, choose products from the top drop down, and then the T60p, I only see Windows XP and Windows Vista listed. Also, "we recommend Windows XP" is splattered all over their site. Ha, like so real mainstream support. Dream on.

FINALLY!

[treak007]

Finally, I had high hopes for Lenovo, especially after IBM's implementation of Linux. Now the only thing to wait for is for more distros to be available.

No, a good example

[CustomDesigned]

It is a good example of how to make money from a commodity item. They can charge more because it is a premium item. From your perspective, you are paying more for the same hardware. From Linksys perspective, they are profiting from remarketing an existing product as "premium" and introducing a stripped down and cheaper version as "standard". Good business move if customers buy it.

And frankly, the WRT54G-L is still a good deal, even with their "premium" pricing. So more power to them. You want linux friendly companies to make money, right?

Re:No, a good example

[b0s0z0ku]

And frankly, the WRT54G-L is still a good deal, even with their "premium" pricing.

Yep, $80 (or less, depending on where you get it) for a router that can be made almost infinitely configurable, is rock-solid, and runs an OpenVPN server. Good deal for me, since OpenVPN client-side software is free and has been ported to almost any platform that's out there today.

-b.

When will we get dual boot

[Anonymous Coward]

Vendors should start offering systems with both Windows and Linux pre-loaded. I would rather get a Windows system and install Linux myself than get Linux pre-loaded and buy Windows.

Re:When will we get dual boot

[westlake]

Vendors should start offering systems with both Windows and Linux pre-loaded

You'll see dual boot when a direct seller or big box retailer on tight margins thinks it's worthwhile to maintain a dual inventory and support structure in the mass consumer market. Meaning, never,

Re:When will we get dual boot

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the difference with the news now? They're offering both WinXP support and SUSE support.

Dell once did offer Linux pre-installed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell once did offer Linux pre-installed on desktop systems - at least through its business sales division. I actually have one (a Dimension 4100 - it's a few years old), and it came with RedHat pre-installed.

FreeBSD too

[Local Loop]

Maybe Dell will also realize that a lot of us are pissed off that they
have stopped "supporting" FreeBSD on their servers.

They still do, but...

[Svartalf]

It's not on all models. The biggest problem they have is that they've got magic tags in the BIOS that XP sees and uses to allow an OEM install intended for Dell machines to go on without plugging in the CD key on the labels they're sticking on the machines. They've got to make a "special" version of the machines they're offering no XP preinstall on that doesn't HAVE this magic key to "prevent piracy", especially since they've apparently caught at least three major businesses cheating on licenses this way in the past. The same goes for at least HPaq (I didn't need to key in the license when I re-imaged my laptop for a small XP partition for my wife's benefit and put Linux (Then Mandriva, now FC5 x86-64 on it...) on.

Blame their wishing for an "easier" way of things for the customer- I blame them for doing something silly that ties them even tighter
than ever to Microsoft that honestly wasn't something that was relevant save for the fact that the damn thing needs regular re-installs
to be of any use to anyone.

Laptop quality

[noz]

It is great to get support for and exposure to Linux from a major vendor.

With respect to quality however, it is my long-standing experience with Dell laptops that they are cheap in price, and cheap in quality. IBM-now-Lenovo laptops are superior in general build quality, and I shall never buy another.

Perchance it will make it easier to get that damned refund for the unused pre-install of Windows too?

Re:Laptop quality

[BCW2]

Dell laptops are certifiable junk. Working in a white box store doing repairs I see more Dell laptops (4x) that any other brand. This is for hardware failure, not crapware removal. The screens can fail in 3 - 6 months (very common), power connector (all brands suck, whoever decided to use the single pin on a laptop should be shot), other video, and motherboard failures are just to common. The Thinkpad on the otherhand doesn't come in until it's 4 or more years old and the owner wants more memory or a bigger hard drive. They do unfortunately use the single pin power connector, but for some reason they don't have the problems that everyone else does. Maybe people are more careful because it costs so much?

Re:Laptop quality

[WuphonsReach]

Thinkpads don't really cost "so much". They're right in line with the rest of the business class notebooks (not consumer-level junk). Their competition is machines like the Toshiba Tecra or the Dell Latitude.

The two units on my current "short list" from June 2006 are:

$2054 Tecra M5 - Core Duo CPU (2-CPUs in one), 2 cores @ 1.67MHz each. 2GB RAM, 1400x1050 14" SXGA+, NVIDIA® Quadro® NVS 110M 128MB video, 60GB HDD, CD-RW/DVD-ROM, 802.11a/b/g, BlueTooth, 3-year warranty. Add $80 if you want the DVD-burner.

$2150 Lenovo T60 2GB 1400x1050 14" Core Duo 1.8GHz (similar specs as the M5 but no Firewire or SD Card slot)

As a comparison, my first business-class laptop back in 2000 cost around $3300 and only lasted for 2 years before I upgraded. I'm still using that 2nd laptop that we purchased in 2002 for around $2700 and might finally upgrade next spring after 5 years.

Re:Laptop quality

[BCW2]

I hadn't looked at the prices lately, they used to run about $500 above the rest and were worth every penny. If Dells weighed enough they would make good canoe anchors.

I'm an IBM/Lenovo warranty technician...

[SalsaDoom]

and I tell you they are NOT as good. The designs are not nearly as good as they used to be. Lenovo has not kept up the same level of quality in any regard. IBM when from my favorite laptops (for business!) to my least favorite. Toshiba Tecra's are the business laptop of choice now IMO (just not the S1 series.).

More pre-installed Linux Laptops: Retailer Survey

[wehe]

Linux support from laptop manufacturers seems still poor. But there are some independent retail shops which offer Linux pre-configured on laptops and notebooks. They offer different laptop brands, some of them e.g. Xtops.DE are specialized in pre-configured Debian or SuSE Linux on Lenovo/IBM ThinkPads.

A Short History of Rumours about Linux Laptops

[wehe]

As far as I can see there is no official announcement from Lenovo about Linux on their laptops available yet. The articles at DesktopLinux/eWeek only propose an official announcement in two weeks. And nothing about some important details: would the pre-installed Linux support all the hardware of a ThinkPad, let's say the internal modem? and how well will the hardware be supported, e.g. will 3D acceleration work together with all the suspend-modes and an external projector? will there be Free and Open Source drivers available? will it be possible to use all these nice features (if provided really) with other Linux distributions, too? will the hardware be cheaper because of the missing MicroSoft tax? There have been rumours from other manufacturers about pre-installed Linux laptops recently, see A History of Blurb, Rumours, Vaporware, False Alarms and a Little Truth Concerning Linux Laptops. But as far as I can see you can't buy one yet, at least not in the U.S. or in Europe.

No .. Re:Won't this just encourage piracy?

[rs232]

"I know I know. I'm probably trolling"

You probably are ..

"people will just put pirate copies of XP on it"

Straight from fud.central. I see both you and Allchin hold this view.

"Once they get the hardware home, however, that Linux OS is quickly erased and replaced with a pirated copy of Windows -- often within 24 hours .. Allchin calls the practice of replacing the default OS with Windows flipping

But can we believe someone who once said this?

"If you're going to kill someone .. you just pull the trigger .. We need to smile at Novell while we pull the trigger" Sept 18, 1993

"Do not be foolish .. do not archive your e-mail." May 2004

What is a Naked PC?

"A Naked PC is one sold without an operating system .. That exposes you to legal action, software viruses and endless technical troubles"

piracy_nakedpc has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt.

They'll make a killing

[harris s newman]

If they put XGL/Compiz on those machines, they will beat out Apple. Better buy some stock...

Full compatibility?!

[spinctrl]

Suspend to RAM does not work on most of the IBM T series, especially the new T60. From what I am aware my HP8240 is similar to the T60, and while accelerated X works fine with ATI's drivers, I have never had any success with S3 suspend mode.... and I'm starting to think this is as much to do with ACPI support in the kernel (last tried 2.6.17) as it is to do with X drivers. Wifi (ipw2200) and suspend to disk work fine; haven't tried the modem, but the SD card slot isn't recognised despite compiling the recent kernel driver. Getting linux to work on a full featured laptop shouldn't be that far off -- so long as manufacturers stop making false claims of (implied) full linux compatibility when it's only partial and flakey.

ONE question

[vogon jeltz]

Yeah, I can install SUSE, Ubuntu or FreeBSD on any fuckin laptop.
Do they actually support all the hardware and, more importantly, do they deliver specs accordingly?
Until then it's nothing but a nice try of the spin doctor's dpt. (TM).
I mean, come on.

Not on Lenovo's web site (Canada)

[Znort]

Lenovo doesn't seem to have it on sale. I have just spent 20 minutes looking for a laptop that has Linux pre-installed. It's not even on the Thinkpad models presentation page http://www.pc.ibm.com/ca/brand/thinkpad_brand.html
If Dell had their linux systems that visible, no wonder the sales didn't pick up.

So Lenovo is just making a PR stunt waiting for requests and then maybe products will appear on their website ?

Re:YAY! It's not Ubuntu!

[Anonymous Coward]

He said mod bloody TROLL, not FLAMEBAIT! Are you people BLIND!? THIS is FLAMEBAIT!

Re:YAY! It's not Ubuntu!

[Anonymous Coward]

UBUNTU IS EVIL AND EATS SMALL CHILDREN!!

http://ultima-inet.kicks-ass.org/~multima/linux/di strorate-results.html?distroName=Ubuntu+Linux&dist roVendor=Canonical%2C+Ltd.&distroURL=http%3A%2F%2F www.ubuntu.com&cpuX86=on&cpuAMD64=on&cpuPPC=on&pac kager=dpkg&compat=-2&cpu=-1&mem=-1&disk=-1&fast=-1 &deskOriginal=on&deskCluttered=on&gnome=on&evil=on

give 'em time....

[steampoweredlawngnom]

This might be a relatively small step, but give them time.
Check out OS/2's history for some insight as to why Linux isn't as prevalent on pre-built machines as one might like.
Back in '94, OS/2 Warp 3.0 came out, fully 32-bit, with memory protection, *real* pre-emptive multitasking, support for long file names, full internet kit and basic office suite bundled, and a full implementation of Win3.1 embedded that ran nearly all win16 and win32s programs - in effect, everything Win95 promised, plus some extras - IBM had nearly persuaded 4 major OEM's (Compaq, Gateway2000, PacBell, and HP I believe, but could be mistaken) to preload OS/2 in a dual-boot setup, giving customers a voucher for a free upgrade to Win95 when, if ever, it finally came out. M$ threw a fit and threatened the aforementioned OEM's with making Win95 not install on their brands of machine if they did so. As it was, M$ charged IBM $45 a copy for Windows, compared with $9 for Compaq, telling IBM "of course we can't give you the same price for Windows as Compaq - they don't make a competing product"
The fact that they're even publicly supporting another OS is a bigger step than I think most realize. Give them time - chances are they're testing the waters to see if a)it's feasible to support Linux on a large scale, and b) they can get get away with it in the face of M$.