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Wiretap Ruling Threatens Telecoms
ches_grin writes "Yesterday's ruling on the NSA warrantless wiretapping program could mean that businesses that assisted in the program are in for some serious legal problems. The judge's decision clearly dismissed out of hand the arguments of the telecoms, saying that the protections due journalists and lawyers was a clear matter of the public's best interests." From the article: "Businesses accused of aiding the Bush administration in wiretapping could also be in for a legal bruising, say civil liberties groups that have sued telecom providers AT&T, Verizon, and BellSouth for allegedly helping the NSA. The ruling could set a precedent other courts can't ignore. 'Every phone company that is assisting the government in its illegal surveillance would want to think long and hard before it continues that agreement,' says Ann Beeson, the ACLU's lead attorney in the case. 'There are already lawsuits claiming that their cooperation for the past several years is illegal and now that the judge has declared it is illegal, their liability increases. The risk is much greater from a business perspective.'"
Um, just curious. What about the protections due to us average citizens, or don't we count anymore?
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
Until the Republican-slanted Supreme Court overrules that brave federal judge with a party-line vote, new guy Alito being the tiebreaker. This is a victory, but do not be mistaken, it is a hollow one.
I fully agree with the sentiment. Nixon resigned under the shadow of impeachment for illegally wiretapping a hotel. One single place. This administration basically wrietapped the entire country. I can't understand why their wasn't more outrage. It saddens me.
My humor is probably your flamebait
Given the way the American legal system works, it's far more likely that we'll all just get coupons toward extra phone services we don't have now, the phone companies will run some public service advertisements about communications, and the lawyers will rake in piles of cash.
What happened to the good old days... when crimes against the entire country were dealt with as "treason" and the bastards were hanged?
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
"Wait, you mean that a company that wronged me and my fellow countrymen might be under legal penalty? You mean I might have as much right to my privacy as my government?"
It's not as simple as that, the NSA has a certain degree of authority that they most certainly abused. If a government agency that high up came to you and told you to do something that wouldn't really affect your company financially would you do it? I assume that the telcos thought they would be in way more trouble if they didn't comply, the NSA would make them their enemies (Would you want to be on the bad side of the NSA?) that the media would tear them apart for assisting "terrorists". As an informed slashdottter, I am appalled. From a business and PR perspective, I can sympathize.
The true evil here is the NSA, while it is a common stratagy for the executive branch to pretend it has more power than it does, these guys took it way too far. Don't get me wrong I think the telcos should have thought a bit longer, hopefully they will get some sort of punishment so there is more of an incentive for companies to think before they comply with a government request.
If you are about to mod me down, keep in mind that this post was most likely sarcastic.
I can't understand why their wasn't more outrage.
I think it has a lot to do with motivation. Many people feel that the Government/Bush is doing what it/he can (sometimes misdirected) to thwart terrorist attacks. Whether or not you agree with the wisdom of his decisions, it's hard to fault the motivation and gin up some "outrage".
Nixon's was clearly a case of playing unethical (and illegal) tricks on a political opponent.
Yeah? Well I think you're overrated too.
Let's be serious here, this won't stand its ground. As long as the judges aren't independent from the rest of the governmental body, they will be at the governments beck and call. At the very least, this will be squished once it touches the supreme court.
I'll try to keep an eye on this to find out just how long it takes until that matter is "settled" (read: Drowned in enough red tape to be grinding to a halt), and at what body it will perish. Because if this matter is turned down and not even investigated, as I expect, the separation of powers in the US is dead. When the executive branch can do what it wants without being held in check by the supreme court, the transformation to a police state is finished.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I'll reiterate:
The US government must think that Americans are lazy, brainless sheep who will shut out even the most obvious evidence that criminals are running the country. I mean seriously, only the most idiotic... Oh look! American Idol is on!
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
Ironically these people are members of the party that claims to champion a limited federal government that operates for not against the people. They campaigned on the very idea of shrinking government and reducing its invasiveness. They have reduced education and social spending (mostly through crippling unfunded mandates). They have left the science budget the same but selectively trimmed spending on some subjects e.g. Global Warming. But when it comes to spying on Americans and invading others no amount is too high and no law apparently can stand.
Not even Richard Nixon went around claiming that he was just "above the law because he says so" but apparently these people think that it is a valid legal principle.
This isn't flamebait, I'm being serious, the only other times that I can think of where anyone claimed such a thing (rule of law but my word is above all law) was the old Russian Tsars after Katherine the Great, and Adolf Hitler who had the "Furher's Princip". Again this isn't flamebait it is frightening.
They're in a bad position? Oh, the poor corporations! We, the people, have for generations had to fight and die to defend our freedoms, but the new "Corporate people" who demand all the rights of citizenship might get stuck paying a fine or something if they refuse to actively break the law! The horror! The unfairness of it all!
I say the consequence for violating the constitution should be stiffer than anything corrupt officials can impose--say, complete and utter destruction of the corporation. Collaborate with corrupt government officials in an unconstitutional act? Fine. You aren't a corporation anymore. Everyone is fired, the assets are auctioned off and the proceeds (after all the corporation's debts are paid) goes to the shareholders. That way, it becomes a no brainer to say "No way!" the next time you are asked to betray the nation at the behest of a few power hungry elected officials or their minions.
That, or we could just give 'em a pass this time and hope that they've learned their lesson...
--MarkusQ
You know that saying that came out after 9/11, how if we don't do this or that, the terrorists have won? Well, they did win. Life in American will never be the same again.
Space for rent, inquire within
Yep!
It looks like most people already got used to Newspeak nowadays...
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
Not really. I doubt anyone alive today remembers 1788 all that well.
120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
you have to assume that it is legal
Bullshit. And your police example isn't appropriate. Nothing is done in big business or big government without paperwork. These telecoms are REQUIRED to ask for the paperwork. They each have a department full of lawyers who would tell every employee, "Make sure to get the paperwork to cover our asses."
What's the worst the government would do to the telecoms for not complying? Raise their FCC license fees? Every one of those telecom employees who complied and is a US citizen conspired with the government to impinge on the rights of fellow citizens. I hope they get sued for every last dollar they earned while trampling over our rights.
Developers: We can use your help.
This is the single point that pisses me off the most.
Remember when Bush stood on the rubble pile there right after the attack and said that we would not allow the terrorists to change our way of life?
Now, we only find out 4 years later (last year) that he was arranging to rob us of our Constitutional rights, as those words came out of his mouth. Too bad we found out so late in the game, or I wouldnt have likely voted for him again.
If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Republicans in Nixon's time would be considered liberal or "democratic" in today's society.
I drive a "sports" car that gets 30+ mpg (I've gotten upwards of 40mpg by babying it on the highway, measured by distance/gallons used).
I used to drive a truck that, when babied, got a whole 18 mpg. City driving made it plummet quickly into the 12mgp range. Most sports cars (unless it's got a V10-V12) get better fuel economy than this. In fact, some of the innovations in sports cars (the Audi R10 for one) increase fuel economy.
On the note of fuel economy, and the like, what is the point of 10% ethanol gas. My car runs worse, gets less mpg (around 10% less mpg). Is it just an excuse to dilute the fuel, and charge the same for it? I know it reduces emissions, but when I have to use more to go the same distance, it seems like it isn't doing anything helpful. Much like the "hybrid" cars, that cost you more than they'll ever save you in fuel (fuel savings for 3 years is usually around $3000, the replacement battery in 3 years is around $3500-$4000), and the technology to make the batteries is also harmful to the environment.
I feel compelled to support the parent of this post and a few above it in their noting that it is ILLEGAL, IMMORAL and just plain TERRORISTIC of the US Government to be tapping calls without a warrant. For those who argue that there is a foreign danger, they simply do not understand what is going on. This program was never aimed at the foreign threat. It was aimed at domestic suppression. It wasn't targeted at any terrorism purpose unless you view citizens exercising their rights as terrorists towards a criminal government. I have read the RFP's on these programs. They were not limited tapping for terrorism. It was tapping everything everywhere all the time and forever.
There can only be one rational explanation of why these people wanted to avoid the special courts set up to handle proper warrants. They were against the law and for bad purpose since the special courts give very nearly carte blanche to the government requests. This is prima facia evidence of a government going far out of its way and starting to act as a Terrorist itself. In point of fact is is running a MAFIA PROTECTION RACKET. For those who don't understand, you set up a terror condition and sell protection. In this case the mobster has the luxury of not even having to hire the enforcer since Al Qaeda and others will provide the terror for the ordinary people and they just shake us down of trillions of dollars in taxes.
Please wake up people. Hurricane Katrina Relief on the US Gulf Coast (2005) has amounted to 220,000 homes needing recovery help. The current expenditures of the US Feds is $178 Billion. That breaks down for those who cannot use a calculator to $809,090 per home. The homes are not rebuilt folks and volunteers are still cleaning up. This govenment is stealing Billions of dollars every place it can from the American People. The current administration fears it will be found out and properly opposed. This is why they are doing their data acquistion programs. They are planning terror if we oppose them. Doubt me? Look at what they do every time there is an argument against them. Look and see if they have actually been effective anywhere at any time for stopping terror. They have not been. They refuse to clean up the US border situation and in point of fact are the prime instigators of the trouble. They accused community watch types (The Minuteman Project) of being terrorists.
Well we citizens are terrorists to these criminals. If we wake up and put them in jail their reign will be over. Do not make anything partizan out of this. This is pure citizenship.
Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
What's amazing is how the rough, tough Authoritarian Right-Wing in this country turned into a bunch of frightened little bedwetters because of a single terrorist attack, so willing to have "Big Daddy" government take away their rights and freedoms so they can be protected. I have to say that I'm ashamed so many of my countrymen have bought into the manipulation of the Bush Administration, which is simply bent on consolidating power at any cost. The events of recent weeks in Britian have shown that a civilized country can fight terrorism without resorting to breaking the law. Even if it's a little bit harder, so be it. We have accepted a lot of things that are harder because we are a free people. Remember, it's much easier to govern as a dictator than as an elected official, responsible to the citizenry. And, it's much easier to live in prison than in the free world. I choose to be free, as have Americans for more than two centuries. And when I hear the Bill Bennetts, William Kristols, Bill O'Reillys and Sean Hannitys, shaking in their boots, so afraid that the big bad terrorists are going to drop a plane on their heads, just begging the likes of Dick Cheney and George Bush to please, take away their freedom so they don't have to pee their pants any more, it disgusts me, as it should disgust every American.
You are welcome on my lawn.