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Closer to Deducing the Origin of the Moon

eldavojohn writes "A giant explosion on the sun in January of 2005 allowed SMART-1 (a European spacecraft orbiting the moon) to detect what elements the moon is made up of based on the X-rays from the sun's explosion. This allows scientists to speculate on the moon's origins while seeing data from all over the moon as opposed to the core samples we have collected and returned in the past. From the article: 'Scientists responsible for the D-CIXS instrument on SMART-1 are also announcing that they have detected aluminium, magnesium and silicon. "We have good maps of iron across the lunar surface. Now we can look forward to making maps of the other elements." said SMART-1's Principal Investigator.'"

43 of 265 comments (clear)

  1. Moo by Chacham · · Score: 4, Funny

    Oh man, you can bet that looking into the moon or bits of it will have you coined as a loony, figuring out its "source" is just plain cheesy, and given its size is anyway having to force a choice between the light and dark side.

    1. Re:Moo by WilliamSChips · · Score: 2, Funny

      Overrated? I see the "That's a moon!" crowd is out in full force today...

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
  2. It's made of cheese! by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 3, Funny

    Don't believe me? Go to google moon and zoom all the way in.

    1. Re:It's made of cheese! by morcego · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, maybe that is why these guys like it so much.

      --
      morcego
  3. Valuable metals? by Ed+Avis · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What are the odds that the moon turns out to be composed partly of gold, or platinum or palladium? Would moon mining be profitable?

    --
    -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    1. Re:Valuable metals? by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 4, Funny

      If the moon is made of palladium would the DMCA prevent mining?

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    2. Re:Valuable metals? by misleb · · Score: 3, Informative

      Unless you can pull out huge chunks of the metals at one go without much work or processing, I seriously doubt it. Just getting a couple people on the surface to walk around a bit is massively expensive... forget about a sustained effort with mining equipment, life support and everything else you'd need.

      -matthew

      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
    3. Re:Valuable metals? by Tweekster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually it is a break even proposition for gold. is at about 625 per ounce...16 ounces per pound, 10,000...the current cost per pound to send something into space ( i dont know what the cost to retrieve it per pound would be, to send it back though) I would assume it is less expensive to send back, time is not exactly a factor, or life support systems etc.

      It is difficult to calculate because I couldnt find much info on sending stuff back from the moon, I am willing to bet it is quite a bit cheaper. But the infrastructure on the moon etc ruins any math. It would be break even for gold to be sent into space...and retrieving it would probably be long term profitable. (providing you can find enough gold)

      Platinum is 1200 dollars per ounce making it much more possible, if sufficient quantities could be found.

      The cargo ship would probably be reasonably priced...no equipment on board, doesnt need to be very fast, just a computer control system and the rockets etc necessary to bring it back in. Could be an interesting proposition.

      --
      The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
    4. Re:Valuable metals? by 'nother+poster · · Score: 5, Informative

      12 oz. per lb. Precious metals are mesured in troy oz, not avoirdupois.

    5. Re:Valuable metals? by P3NIS_CLEAVER · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How is this interesting? This is stupid, the elements are pretty much distributed the same way across the universe; trace elements like palladium are rare everywhere.

      --
      Please sign petition to restore sanity to our banking system!!!

      http://financialpetition.org/
    6. Re:Valuable metals? by Denial93 · · Score: 4, Informative

      No. The only unique property of moon ore is that it isn't inside such a big gravity well, so it is less expensive to move up into space. And unless something fantastically rare and useful can be found there, even the most prized minerals would only be attractive in massive amounts because you would first have to more the necessary equipment up there, not to mention transport capacity to get the stuff to any buyer.

      Only tourism and science are likely to be viable there in the foreseeable future. Big exception: if we unexpectedly manage to get automated construction from raw minerals to work, this could make industry on the moon so cheap it could become viable to start mining and export there. However, this isn't going to happen anytime soon, and when it does it will end capitalism as we know it anyway, so it is nothing you could base a business model on.

    7. Re:Valuable metals? by Sparr0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah. Everyone knows Earth has just as much Hydrogen, relative to its mass, as Jupiter. Oh.

    8. Re:Valuable metals? by LotsOfPhil · · Score: 2

      Regardless of the economics (which you discussed quite well, I think), the moon should be very metal-poor if it was formed via collision. The heavier metals "sank" towards the core when the earth was molten. The collision knocked off the top, lighter material, like silica.
      The density of the moon is 3.35 g/cm^3 whereas the density of the earth is 5.51 g/cm^3.

      --
      This post climbed Mt. Washington.
    9. Re:Valuable metals? by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2, Informative

      Gold is at about $625 per troy ounce or 480 grains, or about $1.30 per grain. A troy pound is 12 ounces or 5760 grains, whereas an avoirdupois pound, used in launch masses, is 7000 grains, so one avoirdupois pound of gold is worth about $9100.

      I suspect retrieving dissolved gold from the ocean would be more cost-effective.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    10. Re:Valuable metals? by 'nother+poster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And you know this for a fact how? Just curious. I agree it's very unlikely that there are clumps or veins of palladium on the moon, but it's not impossible. The K-T boundary layer is significantly higher in several trace elements, so it is surmised that they came from an asteroid that hit the earth, so at least that asteroid had much higher concentrations. Why couldn't Luna?

    11. Re:Valuable metals? by kthejoker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Would they actually have to ship it back?

      I mean, nobody has seen the gold in Fort Knox in years, but it's been traded around left and right. Plenty of people are willing to pay for pieces of paper saying they own some gold - why not just prove it's there, stake a claim on it, and then sell it here on Earth?

      We can have an entire imaginary Moon economy! Awesomeness++!

    12. Re:Valuable metals? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Even if the cost of transporting Moon gold to Earth is zero, it will not make goldmining profitable in Moon. It would just make gold mining unprofitable on Earth.

      For example Amethyst used to included in the list of cardinal gems, (i.e. diamond, ruby, sapphire and emerald). But huge discoveries in Russia and South America has erorded its value to almost that of costume jewellery. On my way to work I pass a shop window displaying an Amethyst geode some three feet long and 1 feet across, partially opened. Must weight a few kilograms. Price? 1750$. So sudden discovery of huge quantities of chiefly ornamental substance will only diminish the value.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    13. Re:Valuable metals? by east+coast · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Also consider refinement and mining costs. We're not going to find this stuff in bar form just laying on the surface. It's going to raise the costs significantly, I'm sure.
       
      I wonder how much gold would need to be brought to earth to effect the market value of gold. There's a chance that, in order to profit, a company would need to mine so much gold that their returns would faulter on a decline in gold prices due to a surplus.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    14. Re:Valuable metals? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Insightful
      12 oz. per lb. Precious metals are mesured in troy oz, not avoirdupois.
      1000 grams per kilogram. People calculating the costs of getting things off of and onto Earth use metric, not archaic.

      Or they learn a very expensive lesson.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    15. Re:Valuable metals? by misleb · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You won't need much work - moon's gravity is far less than that of Earth so extracting and packing large boulders of stuff without machinery then becomes possible. Just pick up a boulder, and move.


      Are you seriously suggesting that humans *manually* mine the Moon? You've got to be kidding. Yeah, I'm sure astronauts are going to be lining up to train for years just to go to the moon to work as slave labor because hauling machinery up there is too expensive. Even in the worst of times, humans have had beasts of burden to the the heavy lifting.

      How, pray-tell, do they dig? How do they get these "light" boulders free? Gravity on the moon might be a lot less than Earth, but it is still there. It is 1/6th Earth's gravity. So a 600 lb. boulder would still weigh 100 lbs on the moon.

      Also, note that moon dust is very harmful to the suits that were used on previous missions there. After a couple days of walking around, astronauts could barely move the suits because moon dust is like tiny little shards of glass. If you think getting beach sand in places where the sun don't shine is bad, try moon dust.

      -matthew
      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
    16. Re:Valuable metals? by 'nother+poster · · Score: 2, Informative

      He was talking about the precious metals value. That is in troy oz still. If you, or he, want to take them someplace you do the conversion to those upity new metric things.

      "My car gets forty rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I likes it!" - Grampa Simpson

    17. Re:Valuable metals? by thefirelane · · Score: 2, Funny

      why not just prove it's there, stake a claim on it, and then sell it here on Earth?

      Fine... I've just claimed all the gold on the moon, care to buy it from me? I'll start the bidding at $1,000 and you can have first dibs.

      Using that logic, why even mine it here on earth?... eventually we'd wind up with some wierd paper notes completely disconnected from actual known gold amounts... crazy!

    18. Re:Valuable metals? by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2, Informative
      The trip from the Moon to the Earth is effectively "downhill."
      Yeah. But it's the brick wall at the bottom of the hill you have to worry about.

      To me, the tricky part of getting it here would be landing it. Sure, you can get it to the Earth fairly easily--Moon has low gravity, Earth has high gravity, etc. The problem to me is that you kind of need to arrange a soft landing for it. So you have to slow down, say, 1,000,000 pounds traveling at, say, 20,000 MPH and set it down gently on the Earth.

      That's gonna take a lot of energy.
    19. Re:Valuable metals? by thefirelane · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Still a better deal than the green pieces of paper not even saying that!

      I love gold people... at a fundamental level they don't realize that both paper and gold are completely useless unto themselves, and are only worth what people will pay for it. If you really worry about your well being in an apocalypse, buy canned food and ammmo, because that is all that will be worth anything.

  4. Origin of moon? by crazyjeremy · · Score: 4, Funny

    I thought God made it. Oh well, learn something every day.

    1. Re:Origin of moon? by MrFebtober · · Score: 2, Insightful

      most who think that certainly wouldn't react the way you did.

    2. Re:Origin of moon? by drew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      last i checked funny mods don't actually affect your karma.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
  5. The moon was destroyed by bsa3 · · Score: 3, Funny

    What's now posing as the Moon is really the Fourth Imperium Utu-class planetoid Dahak, hull number 177291 -- the original was destroyed 51,000 years ago.

  6. origins? by PresidentEnder · · Score: 2, Informative

    Forget the origins of the moon. The moon's here. What I find interesting is that they're mapping the elements on the moon, and where they are. This gives us a map of where to go mine. They already said they found iron; eventually, someone will find a way to make moon mining more monetarily motivational.

    --
    I used to carry a bottle of whiskey for snake bite. And two snakes. -Nefarious Wheel
  7. Only try to realize the truth: by amliebsch · · Score: 4, Funny

    There is no moon.

    --
    If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
  8. Vast Deposits by drewsup · · Score: 5, Funny

    Where are the vast deposits of cheese Grommit, the Cheeeeeeese!

  9. Re:Almighty God created the moon by mooingyak · · Score: 4, Funny

    13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
            14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
            15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
            16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
            17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
            18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.


    19And God said, Let the lesser light of the night be composed of green cheese.

    --
    William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
  10. More Details by writerjosh · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here's a few more details about this Impact Theory:

    "The basic idea is this: about 4.45 billion years ago, a young planet Earth -- a mere 50 million years old at the time and not the solid object we know today-- experienced the largest impact event of its history. Another planetary body with roughly the mass of Mars had formed nearby with an orbit that placed it on a collision course with Earth. When young Earth and this rogue body collided, the energy involved was 100 million times larger than the much later event believed to have wiped out the dinosaurs. The early giant collision destroyed the rogue body, likely vaporized the upper layers of Earth's mantle, and ejected large amounts of debris into Earth orbit. Our Moon formed from this debris."

    Plus, this page has a really cool rendering of the Impact:
    http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/ques tions/question38.html

    1. Re:More Details by bigpat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Anyone else think that Hudson Bay and Foxe Basin look like an impact crater from an oblique impact?

      http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&t=k&om=1&ll=62 .915233,-83.935547&spn=28.413586,63.984375

  11. Hey, sunshine. by porkchop_d_clown · · Score: 3, Informative

    Your point doesn't stand - the moon mineral composition is fundamentally different from Earth's for the straight forward reason that it was made up of materials from Earth's outer layers - it lacks the heavy elements that concentrate in the Earth's core.

  12. discrepancy in lunar rocks? by stupidsocialscientis · · Score: 3, Funny

    Well of course the "lunar landing" rocks were similar to Earth's, they were from Earth. It is accepted fact that we never went to the moon. The present analyses simply add more support to this fact. Oh, and if you want to know my credentials, as IANAA (the last part can be astronomer or astronaut- take your pick) I watch Fox, and that is where I get all my current information, everything else is in my Bible. You can't imagine how much I have saved on bookcases and moving expenses over the years by only reading and owning one book.

    --
    Well, as far as Sig's go, Freud was a doozy.
  13. That is perfect. by Belial6 · · Score: 3, Funny

    You are aboslutly correct, and it seems that you would have the added benefit of being the most secure storage site on the plan... eh... in the solar system.

  14. Re:Huge Explosion by IflyRC · · Score: 2, Funny

    Please, do not anger the Great One. He is always watching and always has a slide show ready.

  15. Heavy Weather by delire · · Score: 2, Insightful


    'Origins' aside, it's mining companies (and venture capitalists with an eye for off-world enterprises) that will be most interested in these findings, lending the idea that they are likely funding some of this research.

    While this may sound absurd, it's perhaps worth asking: How much rock do you have to move off the Moon before the Earth starts seeing climatic changes as a result? Any one know of research into this area? Given the blatant denial certain first word countries have evidence in the face of an eroding Ozone layer, let's hope the moon isn't laden with valuable metals, ores and other resources..

  16. Accepted Theory by TheZorch · · Score: 2, Informative

    Its an accepted theory that the Moon originated from the Earth.

    Sometime in Earth's early history, before the formation of life, a large Mars-sized object probably collided with the Earth throwing off a massive amount of material.

    For a time its believed the Earth might have had a Saturn-like ring system until tidal/gravitational forces caused the material to begin clumping together into what would one day be the moon. Its also likely that some material rained back down on the Earth. Supporting this theory is the well known fact the Earth has a very faint, barely detectable, ring.

    --
    Michael "TheZorch" Haney
    thezorch@gmail.com
    http://thezorch.googlepages.com/home
  17. Re:Moon Landings by Don853 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I can take a soil sample in front of my apartment without showing large concentrations of any metals. They didn't look at very large areas of the moon... and while a lot smaller than the Earth, it's still a pretty big place. This gives them a chance to cover much larger areas.

    n.b: this is all contingent on the belief that the Lunar landings weren't a conspiracy.

    See: http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html
  18. Re:Cheesy by Chacham · · Score: 2, Funny

    That depends. Is the floor carpeted?

  19. Findings Make Sense... by ElboRuum · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The findings make sense for the theory which states that an off-center impact of a largish planetesimal merged with the nascent earth 'momentarily', then threw off a globule roughly the same size as that planetesimal. It makes sense if you consider that the earth's mantle is made primarily of molten silicate rock and light metals, so an impact which 'punctured' the earth and 'kept on going' would have passed through the mantle and taken the mantle rock with it. The moon, if the samples brought back are any indicator, is more than likely nothing more than a solidified blob of ejected mantle collapsed to a sphere due to its mass. Of course, the fact that the moon is slowly moving away is another good indication of a birthing impact as it seems to suggest a point of origin. The earth is probably too small to have captured a body the size of the moon anyway. Another good piece of evidence is the fact that the moon always faces the earth on the same side, a coincidence of angular momentum that suggests that the moon was once a part of earth.