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Pluto Decision Meets with Frustration
fuzzybunny writes "The BBC reports that the IAU's controversial Prague vote on demoting Pluto from planet status was irregular. 'There were 2,700 astronomers in Prague during that 10-day period. But only 10% of them voted this afternoon.'" On a less serious note, lx writes "Nonplussed by Pluto's recent downgrade from Planet Status, Fox News's own John Gibson does an incredible Stephen Colbert impersonation to correct the 'revisionist history' of the IAU's decision. Exemplifying 'truthiness,' from the article: 'Long ago I learned it was a planet and I see no reason to unlearn it. Why should I?' "
He must have a hard time when we elect a new President.
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So wait.. let me get this straight. Fox News is trying to copy a show that is a direct parody of the Fox News network? There's got to be some irony in there somewhere.
Why are people so frustrated with this? I typically resist change, but I'm ok with this. If the definition of planet has been refined (that's my understanding) and pluto no longer fits the criteria, then this is fine.
We keep the new definitions, but still call Pluto a planet, just as an honorary title.
'Long ago I learned it was a planet and I see no reason to unlearn it. Why should I?'
Don't fret it. Long ago Romans learned it was a god. They didn't have to unlearn it. Their empire simply collapsed.
Innovation makes enemies of all those who prospered under the old regime... -- Machiavelli
We keep the new definitions, but still call Pluto a planet, just as an honorary title.
Much like how the United States still refers to Canada as a soveriegn nation, instead of a 51st state.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Long ago I learned it was a planet and I see no reason to unlearn it. Why should I?
Because we were wrong. It's orbit is incredibly un-circular, it wildly off the plane of the solar system, and it's smaller than the moon! It never belonged in the pigeon-hole we've labelled "planet".
Part of science is accurate classification. We can't label something just because we want to.
As such:
See this for more.Don't worry, Diebold has just announced the results of the recount, and 3,134 of the 2,700 delegates voted to make Pluto stay as a planet.
I'm scared of numbers that can't be written as a fraction. It's an irrational fear.
Long ago I learned it was a planet and I see no reason to unlearn it. Why should I?
Before five hundred years ago I learned that the Earth was flat and I see no reason to unlearn it. Why should I?
Whether Pluto is or is not considered a planet is not as important to me as the integrity of high-level guidance among senior scientists. When the arguments for or against a decision depend on popular vote rather than rational consensus, scientists reduce themselves to the level of lawyers. When the objectivity of scientific thought is bypassed by special interest groups and politics, science is no longer Science. This whole process has been a shameful exhibition of politics.
"The mind works quicker than you think!"
I usually don't comment much, but when a nationally-recognized news anchor makes stupid comments, I feel obliged.
He says, "All of a sudden Ringo isn't a Beatle? All of a sudden somebody changes a standard and Curly isn't a stooge, or Zeppo isn't a Marx, or Ari isn't one of the "Entourage"? Actually I don't know why Pluto got itself unmade as a planet. I didn't even read the rest of the story, frankly."
My god. Yeah, because Ringo Starr's status as a Beatle hinges on statistics and his orbital ellipse, just like Pluto's. Look out for that 'Two Stooges' DVD also. John Gibson sounds like a prick -- if our understanding of the universe evolved John Gibson's way, we might still be afraid to fall off the edge of the world, or the Sun might still rotate around the Earth. The changing of 'standards' is inevitable as a better understanding of the universe becomes available. The more technologically advanced we become, you can bet laws, theories, and yes, even TEXTBOOK PRINT may become outdated.
(Note: this rant directed toward John Gibson's stupid 'rebuttal,' regardless of the IAU decision whether Pluto should be considered a planet or not.
"Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies." -Thomas Jefferson
I'll tell you why.
Ever look at the price tag on a Textbook?, those things are expensive.
To pay for the textbook publishers political action committee.
Think of the money that will need to be spent by schools for new science textbooks; just after they got done replacing them to give equal space to 'Intelligent Design'.
You might think it's unimportant, but when the federally mandated standardised test asks how many planets are in the Solar System...
AccountKiller
(2) looks OK, but the IAU folks have taken the (IMHO) insane view that a "dwarf planet" is not a subtype of "planet" at all (contrast "dwarf pine tree" or "dwarf sunflower" or "dwarf hippopotamus", all of which are subtypes of their source nown). That destroys a potential way to finesse the Pluto issue -- by calling it a dwarf planet, they could have let everyone have their semantic cake, and eat it too.
On a different note, another scientist friend of mine just told me his six-year-old daughter burst into tears when she found out Pluto isn't to be considered a planet anymore. :-(
Gibson would've said the converse when they added Pluto:
"I grew up with eight planets. Now some know-nothing radicle tells me there are nine? This 'planet' Pluto is nothing but a rock of ice in space."
We stopped believing that the Earth is flat because better observations and measurements of the Earth contradicted the definition of "flat". However, what they're doing with Pluto is changing the definition of "planet". This is an entirely arbitrary process, and the definition they've come up with is entirely arbitrary. It has much less to do with science than with human psychology.
The people who want to stick with Pluto as a planet are at least as rational and justified in their belief as the people who want to change it.
Guys, it's called science, and science revises itself over time to accomodate new data. Gravitational perturbations of Neptune first led astronomers to seek a ninth planet. When Tombaugh found it in 1930 Pluto was thought to be Earth-sized and similarly massive. Over the decades its size and mass kept getting revised downward as new scientific discoveries were made. The perturbations turned out to not exist-- another example of science refining itself.
Now we've discovered UB313, Sedna, Ixion, Quoar and others, and it's clear that Pluto's only the most prominent representative of the Kuiper belt, just as Ceres is the most prominent member of the asteroid belt. The media that are causing this furor are ignorant of the real issues involved and seem merely interested in running stories about Mrs. Johnson's 3rd grade class being upset about Mickey's dog.
Pluto is still there. It's still the same size and mass it always was, and New Horizons is still going to visit it. But it never would be called a planet if it were discovered today.
I know of a way to end this debate once and for all, lets blow up pluto
Seems "My! Very educated morons just screwed up numerous planetariums." would be more appropriate. ;-)
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
Alright here it is: we build a big "laser" and blast the planet/pluton/dwarf to smithereens. No Pluto = no controversy. All can, and will, be happy then. We can even get it a memorial plaque. It could say something like this:
In memory of Pluto, 1930-2006
Beloved 9th planet of our solar system, dwarf planet, and now intercosmic dust, we will remember you...
As an interesting extension, it could be argued that Neptune has also 'cleared' its orbit. Pluto is locked into a 3:2 orbit with Neptune, and this is fixed by Neptune's gravity. Neptune has forced Pluto into a stable orbit WRT itself, and so has cleared its orbit.
Correct decision, IAU, well done
Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
The guy that owns 9planets.org used his crystal ball and secured 8planets.org on 26-Jun-2006 12:32:54 UTC. He even hedged his bet by securing 12planets.org on 16-Aug-2006 07:28:43 UTC.
Remember... ZG9uJ3QgZm9yZ2V0IHRvIGRyaW5rIHlvdXIgb3ZhbHRpbmU=
When I read that Pluto was being downgraded to "dwarf planet" status, I thought, "it'll always be Yuggoth to me," and I broke out in song...
(Sing it to the tune of "Always a Woman to Me" by Billy Joel)
They can harp on its size
They can call it a dwarf planet
And they can say that it's wise
To just keep on ignorin' it
They can say it's remote
And just too hard to see
They can talk about Pluto
But it'll always be Yuggoth to me
No, the Mi-Go are far
from concerned what we say to it
Put your head in a jar
And they'll fly you away to it
And you'll learn how to speak
Buzzing just like a bee
Blame it all on Lovecraft
'Cause it'll always be Yuggoth to me
This sig, aah-ah, is comin' like a ghost-sig...
The facts of the world here in fact have not changed. Only nomenclature has.
well what has actually happened is that nomenclature has caught up with the facts. The new(ish) fact is that there is a big belt of pluto like objects in similar orbits to pluto. The final straw came when it was discovered that pluto wasn't even the biggest in that belt.
It's also useful in education, because we ask our kids to learn the names of the planets, not every body that orbits the sun. There is really very little useful value in writing new textbooks here.
well you could say there is very little value in teaching our kids the makeup of the solar system at all. After all its not as though any significant number of people leave earth and the only bodies with significant impact on everyday life are the sun and moon.
what we have really discovered here is that pluto was not a one of a kind in a pretty unique orbit but part of a belt of very similar lumps of rock. School textbooks talk about the asteroid belt but not ceres in particular. Similarly they should talk about the kuiper belt but not pluto in particular.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register