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Can Banks Shift Phishing Losses to Customers?

1sockchuck writes to mention a Netcraft article wondering who should bear the brunt of phishing costs. A group of customers with the Bank of Ireland recently had $202,000 drained from their accounts by phishers. The bank initially resisted the request to refund their money, but allowed it after a suit was threatened. From the article: "The Bank of Ireland incident is one of the first public cases of a bank seeking to force phishing victims to accept financial responsibility for their losses, but it likely won't be the last. Phishing scams continue to proliferate, as Netcraft has blocked more than 100,000 URLs already in 2006, up from 41,000 in all of 2005. Financial institutions continue to cover most customer losses from unauthorized withdrawals. But after several years of intensive customer education efforts, the details of phishing cases are coming under closer scrutiny, and the effectiveness of anti-phishing efforts taken by both the customer and the bank are likely to become an issue in a larger number of cases." So, should a bank be forced to pay back a customer who has lost money to phishers? Or is it ultimately the customer's responsibility to make educated use of technology?

64 of 425 comments (clear)

  1. I do what I can to the phishers by plover · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Whenever I receive a phishing email, I immediately capture what I can of it (including headers,) then head to the legitimate site and look for a place to report it. I do this even though I am not a customer of the bank in question. Some banks like Barclay's have easy-to-find "Report fraudulent e-mail here" links, while others seem to go far out of their way to hide any contact information at all.

    The banks with the helpful "report here" links also typically have helpful auto-responders, and their sites and form letters at least make it seem like they care about security. The banks who make it hard to hear from their customers usually don't reply at all. If I were shopping for a new bank, I'd definitely stay away from those that don't have an easy-to-find contact point near the front of their site. I get the impression they do not take security or phishing threats seriously at all. They'll probably be the ones that would fight their victims.

    --
    John
    1. Re:I do what I can to the phishers by Anonymous+Crowhead · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Whenever I receive a phishing email, I immediately capture what I can of it (including headers,) then head to the legitimate site and look for a place to report it.

      I used to do that about spam......in 1992. Seriously, where do you find the time?

    2. Re:I do what I can to the phishers by plover · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I get maybe one phish every two weeks or so, it takes me about two or three minutes to report it. No skin off my nose, really. Do you like phishers, or getting their bait in your email? Do you think it's OK for them to scam people, just because you don't know the victims in advance?

      The faster anybody responds, the faster the phishing web host can be taken down, and the fewer people can be scammed. Fewer victims == fewer profits for the phishers.

      They annoy me. A lot. The least I can do is annoy them back by keeping their take as low as possible.

      --
      John
    3. Re:I do what I can to the phishers by Fareq · · Score: 4, Insightful

      At the same time, however, these fraudulent transactions were in fact made without permission of the account holder, and banks claim to guarantee protection against that.

      Otherwise, I could print a book of checks for your account and write checks, and it'd be your fault for giving me the info to make that possible (even though a check is sufficient info).

      The bank promises that only transactions actually authorized by you will be applied. The fact that someone has figured out how to trick the bank in to thinking they're talking to you does not imply that you authorized the transactions, although what you did might be exceptionally stupid.

    4. Re:I do what I can to the phishers by zap0d · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm happy to share my name John Doe and my card number 12345678 and my address Milky Way 1 and also my secret password "asdf"

    5. Re:I do what I can to the phishers by CuriHP · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Funny you should mention the ATM example. I, embarassingly, did exactly that. And you know what. My bank did reimburse it. Bank of America if you're interested. In the long run, they'll end up making a lot more from em and my money than the $200 the incident cost them. It just makes sense for them to do it.

      --
      If it's not on fire, it's a software problem.
    6. Re:I do what I can to the phishers by Static.Reality · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Otherwise, I could print a book of checks for your account and write checks, and it'd be your fault for giving me the info to make that possible (even though a check is sufficient info).
      This analogy would be better if you said that you printed a book of checks and then fooled the customer to sign them all. If you sign the check, you are liable. When you give a phisher your ssn, user name, password, ect. you are essentially signing the check. No one went through your mail, found you account number and forged your signature. You were conned into giving the criminal a signed, blank check. While I feel sorry for everyone that has been through this ordeal (and I worked for a bank for five years and saw plenty of them), I don't think that the bank should be liable.
    7. Re:I do what I can to the phishers by eggoeater · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The fact that someone has figured out how to trick the bank in to thinking they're talking to you does not imply that you authorized the transactions
      Trick????

      I'm a call center engineer for a large financial institution. Guess what they do to verify you are who you say you are? They ask questions. They ask for the same information people enter into the phishing sites.

      They require 3 pieces of information. (Mother's maiden, DOB, SSN, etc). Once the caller answers those questions, they HAVE TO treat the caller as the account owner and do whatever they ask. It's not a trick.
      The phishers are the ones playing the trick and deserve to be punished.
    8. Re:I do what I can to the phishers by 2nd+Post! · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Call it empathy, call it preparation, call it karma. One day you will be that idiot that got fooled by a flawless scam because you didn't help strengthen the system when you had the opportunity.

      That, and every dollar the banks lose, ultimately if it isn't paid for by the scammed, it is paid for by EVERYONE ELSE, in the form of fees, insurance, taxes, and service charges.

      So if you don't help stop the problem, you will pay for it in one way or another.

    9. Re:I do what I can to the phishers by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 2, Insightful
      If you leave your ATM card in the ATM machine with the pin in, ready to withdraw cash, would you expect your bank to reimburse you?
      Darn right they should! They programmed the ATM with very poor ergonomics. My bank will not give you the cash until you pull out the card from the reader.
    10. Re:I do what I can to the phishers by MDMurphy · · Score: 2

      Ummmm, you aren't paying attention. It's the customer who's stupid and should eat the loss. MUCH better than my bank footing the bill.

      Actually, I'm surprised to learn that the customer doesn't eat it for being foolish all along.

    11. Re:I do what I can to the phishers by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2, Funny

      Any details available on where this ATM with money hanging out of it is located? ;)

  2. I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by Anonymous+Crowhead · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A little tough love. Hit 'em where it hurts and maybe they'll learn. If I got scammed on the web, I'd feel like such a fool I probably wouldn't bother seeking a refund.

  3. Fools and their Money 2.0 by Skyshadow · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hacking? Yes.
    ID theft? Yes.
    Fraud? Yes.

    Phishing? Man, I dunno -- seems to me that if you get suckered into giving someone your account information, that's kind of your own problem. It's not Paypal's fault if you actually believed that the poorly-worded email you got was actually from them because it had their logo someplace on it.

    On the other hand, this sort of thing could also seriously undermine the confidence that people have in online transactions and the like, so I can't help but wonder if maybe it isn't shortsighted not to just take the hit.

    --
    Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
    1. Re:Fools and their Money 2.0 by plover · · Score: 5, Interesting
      a bank could perhaps continuously move the URLs for images on the bank's site

      I like that idea a lot! Use a sessionID-named folder for any URLs that have bank logos, and any requests for logos that use an expired session ID would return an image of a stopsign with the text: "STOP - ERASE ANY PERSONAL INFORMATION FROM THIS PAGE - THIS IS A FRAUDULENT WEBSITE!!! SOMEONE IS TRYING TO STEAL YOUR MONEY!!!"

      --
      John
    2. Re:Fools and their Money 2.0 by DarkProphet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Though the parent is funny, I am not sure why it got +4 Funny instead of +4 Insightful. This is EXACTLY what financial institutions should be doing!! It would work like gangbusters.

      Another approach that I think would work well for financial institutions is to make it unequivocally clear that they will never never ever in a million years contact their customers by any method besides snail mail. The customer should be required to sign a sheet saying they understand this before they are allowed to open an account, and it should be the responsibility of the financial institution to make sure that the customer is TOLD this, not just handed a piece of fine print to sign. I have been using online banking at 3 different institutions for approximately 5 years, and I am absolutely sure that in that time I have never recieved any e-mail from them for any reason. Paypal on the other hand... I've gotten both legitimate email and phishers.... so I just blacklist anything with paypal in the subject or content. Sure, it means they have no way to get ahold of me besides snail mail, but they shouldn't need to.

      But, perhaps I am a little too idealistic... /me sighs

      --
      What could possibly hurt the security of the American people more than giving our own government the ability to hide its
    3. Re:Fools and their Money 2.0 by mrbooze · · Score: 2, Informative

      Just the opposite, banks have been pushing for *more* online contact and less snail mail. I still get paper statements mailed from Wells Fargo and every time I check my account online I get a big ad page urging me to switch to paperless online statements.

      Email alerts from banks can be very useful as well. Such as alerts of low balance or overdraft, or even unusual activity. If someone pulled a bunch of money out of my account and I don't hear about it till I get a letter in the mail days letter, by that time I'd be lucky to have anything left, and probably several days of bounced payments to go along with it.

  4. Re:Let Uncle Sam pay by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As much as America funds other governments, I don't think Uncle Sam should pay for Ireland's banking debts. Maybe the banks in the FDIC...

  5. They have to learn sometime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Phishing is no different than other scams out there. One in my area has two men dressed as workers from the water department who enter the home to "check the water pressure." While one sets to work inside the other takes the victim outside to check the faucets leaving the first to go looking for the jewlery box.

    Does the water department have to cover the cost of the missing rings? No. Then why must financial institutions?

  6. No by 4D6963 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    No

    If they did so, then all you'd have to do would be to set up a phishing site, be a victim of your own phishing and then be payed back by your bank.

    That, and also, blah blah people blah blah stupid blah blah genetic pool blah.

    --
    You just got troll'd!
  7. "Can Banks Shift Phishing Losses to Customers?" by Maxwell'sSilverLART · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Can Banks Shift Phishing Losses to Customers?" asks the headline.

    Of course. The customers are going to pay for all losses; the correct question is, will banks make the individual who made a foolish decision pay for his mistake, or will they make all of the customers (like me) pay, in the form of reduced interest payouts, higher lender rates, increased fees, etc.?

    You don't really think the bank is going to create money to pay for the losses, do you? Make no mistake about it--banks, like every other convenient, abstract legal fiction--don't pay for anything. Individuals pay for things.

    --
    Moderate drunk! It's more fun that way!
    1. Re:"Can Banks Shift Phishing Losses to Customers?" by jay2003 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Clearly, you've never any taken any economics classes or you learned nothing. Your statement is only true in market segments approaching perfect competition, and there are very few of those outside farming. In market segements where sellers or services providers have market power, which banks do evidenced by their enormous profits, it's simply false to claim that all costs are passed on to customers. Often the factor that dominates prices is the marginal revenue lost by reducing prices rather the level of marginal cost per unit.

  8. Knowing my clients by bigattichouse · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Knowing my clients, I smell a new "insurance product" ... a general "electronic age" insurance product to cover online fraud (buyer/seller problems), identity theft and now phishing. "e-Policy" or something.

    --
    meh
  9. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by soft_guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It isn't clear to me that you have to do anything wrong to be the victim of fraud. The banks need to come up with a method to combat financial fraud, or they need to absorb losses as the cost of doing business. Bankrupting individuals isn't the answer.

    --
    Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
  10. My $0.02 (no pun intended) by Guppy06 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    1. It seems that the task of finding and catching phishers should be put to those best able to pursue them: the banks. If the customer is responsible for the loss, be prepared to see silly little class actions against phishers, with the only real victors being the lawyers.
    2. If a bank doesn't want to be held responsible for what happens to my money, I'll do the responsible thing and move my money elsewhere.
    1. Re:My $0.02 (no pun intended) by pla · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If a bank doesn't want to be held responsible for what happens to my money, I'll do the responsible thing and move my money elsewhere

      Damn - Here goes a wasted mod point, but I consider this point so insightful, I must reply.

      I know people who, even in the current environment where banks bear the vast majority of the pain for most financial fraud, refuse to keep their money in the bank. They currently fall in the minority, but do exist. And not just fogies and Luddites - I know a 26YO EE who has no credit cards, no bank account, and buys EVERYTHING with cash or money-orders.

      If banks start telling people "Aww, gee, someone emptied your account using seemingly-legit info, tough luck; I guess you'll use a bit more care next time, eh?", you can expect to see the world's economies collapse overnight as people move their life saving to their mattresses.



      So no, banks will stoically take the hit, as they have always done. Not just for fear of losing customers, but for fear of losing public confidence in the the ONE thing they actually "sell" - The legal fiction of fungibility of food/goods for paper, and more recently, paper for bits. If they lose that quite literally delusional association of "value" most people have for their magical green paper, game over - They go from running the world, to owning a lot of nonmagical green paper.

  11. Banks. by m0rph3us0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem is that the banks aren't taking appropriate steps to identify the customer before handing over the customer's money. Banks are legislated/insured to only release money to the authorized account holder. When the customer takes reasonable steps to protect their information and follows the banks security procedures they are not responsible for loss.

    By putting in place technology that doesn't sufficiently protect the reasonable person from fraud the banks bring the liabilty to themselves. The reason you put money into the bank and pay fees is to prevent unauthorized persons from accessing your money and to provide insurance against such a loss. It is the banks job to put in-place controls and cover the losses that arise from insufficient controls. It is a balancing act between what the consumer wants to put up with in security and what they want to pay for service. It is the banks job to find the equilibrium between the cost of increased controls and the cost of fraud. After all it is the bank not the consumer who is offering the service of withdrawl over the internet.

    A good step in the right direction might be two factor authentication.

    1. Re:Banks. by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Remember, there are only so many blocks you can put in between an idiot and his money before he gets pissed off and takes it else where.

      Personally, Im all for banks charging phishing victims for the losses - many dont cover fraud resulting from the customer failing to take appropriate measures to protect their card details, how is failing to protect their login details any different?

  12. x.509 certificates . . . by rbannon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wouldn't it be nice if customers and banks alike used secure email?

  13. incentives by brre · · Score: 3, Insightful
    If you want the party that has the most control of the security system to have the incentive to fix the problem, the bank should pay.

    If you want to take away the incentive to fix the problem from the party that has the most control of the security system, the customer should pay.

  14. Bands & Customers should exercise due diligenc by sweetnjguy29 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The reason why phishing attacks work is that people are fooled into giving credit card information to what appears to be a legitimate website. This could have been avoided if the customer was more careful, but then again, we all get tricked from time to time.

    Now, why aren't flags raised when $30,000 is taken out of a bank account electronically from an unusual location? A phone call to the account holder would be nice.

    By analogy, if someone forges a check, and signs my name, and the bank cashes that check, the bank is on the hook for the cash. Also, if someone lies about their identity, and the bank doesn't verify their identity, they are also on the hook for the check. The same should be true with online transactions.

    If European banks and governments wont protect customers from fraud, online purchases will be doomed.

  15. Its the Phisers who should pay! by vertinox · · Score: 4, Insightful

    FTFA: 1sockchuck writes to mention a Netcraft article wondering who should bear the brunt of phishing costs.

    The rational answer should be that law enforcement should persue the criminals and put a freeze on their accounts and seek retribution in monetary and jailtime punishments.

    Seriously, if we can find and freeze "terrorist" accounts, how hard is it to track where this money goes?

    I mean Phishers have to get it from a bank or ATM somewhere.

    Why don't the bank simply reverse the process and force other banks to freeze the accounts? What is preventing them?

    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
  16. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by SeattleGameboy · · Score: 2, Funny
    I probably wouldn't bother seeking a refund.

    Won't seek a refund for $200k loss???

    Bill, is that you?

  17. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by secolactico · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It isn't clear to me that you have to do anything wrong to be the victim of fraud.

    You haven't done anything wrong, neither has the bank. How are phishing emails different than, say, somebody calling you on the phone pretending to be from your bank's credit card department? If you fall for it, who should be responsible? The customer for not being more careful? The bank for not making it more difficult for people to impersonate customers (and at the same time making it more difficult for honest people to conduct their business from afar). Insurance? (fat chance)

    --
    No sig
  18. not true: "morons get what they deserve" by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    justice must have a compassionate edge. because if justice is as brutal and swift as crime itself, it is no longer justice

    so yes, the people who fall for phishing schemes are stupid. but no: they do not deserve what happened to them. the punishment they receive (losing all of their funds) is not commensurate with the mistake they made. if i get in the car with a drunk driver, i am stupid. but do i deserve to get paralyzed for life in the accident that happens for my mistake? no. so do you laugh and call me a moron or grieve at my infirmity?

    whether you laugh or grieve at me is more revelatory about your own immaturity. because god forbid you ever make a little mistake in your life and suffer drastically for the consequences, right? that can never happen to you, right? yes: stupid mistakes have negative consequences. but if the negative consequences are way out of proportion to the error, you should not be so dismissive, you should demonstrate some compassion, or justice really isn't your motivation. if drastic punishment from a simple mistake happens to you, you're just going to suck it up and move on without complaining one bit, right?

    well... experience teaches me that those laughing hardest at those horribly punished for simple mistakes are also those who whine the loudest when they become victimized the same way. so yes, banks should pay for phishing schemes, and everyone here shouting "you get what you deserve" are not speaking from a position of concern for justice. they are speaking from just sort of a smug hypocritical contempt for simple human fallibility. which they apparently imagine themselves immune from, out of simple ignorance at how cruel crime can be, and how fickle fate can be

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:not true: "morons get what they deserve" by Detritus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Many drunk drivers are not "obviously drunk". They can behave normally, even though their reflexes and judgement are substantially impaired. Are you going to give your friends a roadside sobriety test every time you get in their car?

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
  19. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by plover · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Actually, I think the pressure to improve security will eventually come from insurance and lawsuits.

    Given a few large lawsuits, banks will probably have to sign up for fraud insurance. But if their insurers set their rates based on an assesors' estimate of their security, it'll be in their best interests to improve security to get the cheapest policy possible.

    It's how the civil court system and capitalism are supposed to work, anyway. It may just take time (and no freakin' governmental interference by passing "tort reform" limiting the banks' liability, otherwise there will be no financial incentive at all.)

    --
    John
  20. Of COURSE the banks should make good by cfulmer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The basic way money is stolen is this:

    (1) Somebody gets your account information. (Possibly through phishing, possibly just by rummaging through your mail).
    (2) They wire money out of your account.
    (3) They move the money someplace where it cannot be retrieved.

    The problem is in step 2. The banks make absolutely no verification that a transfer is authorized. When I walk into a branch, I can't just pull money out of my account without first verifying who I am. When I write a check, the bank (at least in theory) is supposed to verify that the signature on the check matches the one they have on file. But, there is no similar verification when my account is electronically drafted.

    The banks are basically betting that they'll lose less money through fraud than it would cost them to implement security on the back end. It's a calculated risk on their end. If their customers had to pay for the fraud, there would be NO incentive for them to improve security.

    Incidently, the comment that "the customers pay for it anyway" is only partially right -- customers pay for part of it through reduced interest rates and so on, but some of it also comes out of the bank's profits. Banks are generally in a competitive market and as long as there are alternatives for savings (e.g. brokerage houses), the market dictates the interest rates paid by the bank.

  21. Bank of Ireland has extremely bad security! by GekkePrutser · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm an account holder with Bank of Ireland, and have had several accounts with Dutch banks. ALL Dutch banks use two-factor authentication when making payments, either with a digital "calculator" device or a list of passwords, where for every payment a different password is requested, and the list renewed when it has been used up.

    Bank of Ireland, on the other hand, uses just a lame 6-digit password, your contact phone number and a 6-digit account number. Very lousy security there. I definitely don't feel safe using their internet banking facilities. Even 8 years ago my Dutch bank modem service already used 2-factor auth.

    So, yes, I feel that in this case BOI is completely to blame for this.

  22. Advertising by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Phishing seems to be good advertising for banks. I'd never heard of Fifth Third Bank until I was suddenly getting 5 phishing e-mails a day for it.

    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  23. yes, it's the bank's problem by jay2003 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If someone forged your driver's license and went to the bank to withdraw your money in person, it's the bank's fault for giving it to them. Same principle should hold for online transactions. If the bank gives the wrong person your money, it's not your problem.

    If the liability moves to customers, the banks won't have any incentive to improve security. Worse, the bank will start blaming you for breeches that are completely their fault. The bank will claim you didn't protect your password when their systems are comprised and your account is drained.

  24. The bank is in a better position to do something by DaveJay · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The bank has motivation and resources to implement a solution, whereas individual customers do not. This is because banks control the technologies that phishers emulate in order to con their targets.

    For example, the company I work for is concerned about phishers stealing user accounts, by emailing links to pages that look like our corporate signin page (used for many properties in many locations, so commonly encountered on various sites by our employees.) As individual users, it was extremely difficult to tell whether the page being logged into was legitimate or not; so, the company now uses a cookie to identify you as an employee, and embed your picture (from the company's internal records) into the login page. If there's no picture of you, it's not legitimate.

    Is that foolproof? No, because other employees could get your photo and fake the login page. It certainly narrows it down to internal employees and contractors, however, and it's a step that individual employees could never have taken on their own.

    Similarly, imagine if ATM cards didn't have PINs, and possession of the card was enough to withdraw money from remote locations. Individual users couldn't do much about this, other than hold onto their card for dear life, but the banks could easily implement PIN codes so that theft of the card did not automatically enable theft of account monies.

    Again, is that foolproof? No, because some people write their PINs on their cards (duh) and some people manage to set up "fake" ATMs to collect card swipes and PINs. However, banks now use the unique identifier on the card to access the customer's name and display it before the PIN is punched -- no name means you probably shouldn't use the machine. Again, another step (still not foolproof) that individual users couldn't enact on their own.

    If a bank makes a service available, they are the ones in good position to improve the security of that service, and at some point the bank actually hands over the money based on their own assurance that the person using the service is who they say they are, using whatever method the bank provides. All of this is up to the bank, not the user, and so they should carry the liability -- if not, they can always opt to avoid providing those services that they cannot successfully protect.

    Does this absolve the users of all responsibility? No, but there are still lots of stupid things users can do -- and shouldn't -- that cause them to lose money that the bank doesn't -- and shouldn't -- have to reimburse.

    I guess you can think of it like this: if a bank's machine gives out money to the wrong person, it's the bank's fault -- and if the bank's machine gives out money to the right person, who is then mugged within half a second of the transaction, it's the user's fault.

  25. Re:Maybe... by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, I can think of some. For example, a friend of mine got his debit card copied. He couldn't have prevented it, Arco got their computer systems compromised and all the debit-card numbers and PINs used at their at-the-pump readers stolen, and he happened to have used his card at an affected Arco station. But the bank could've easily stopped his account from being emptied. He'd made a card-present, ID-presented, signature-obtained transaction in San Jose, CA. 4 hours later, his card was used at an ATM in Thailand and his account emptied in $100-200 increments, it took quite a few transactions to completely drain his account. Now, any basic security profiling should've raised red flags: he's never used his card outside the US, these are cash withdrawals in a country that's known as a source of financial fraud, and it's physically not possible for a person to have gotten from San Jose to Thailand in 4 hours. All the bank would've had to do is refuse that first ATM withdrawal with a message to contact his bank and that would've been the end of the theft before it began. But they allowed all those transactions without questioning them. That's definitely not reasonable care on the part of the bank.

  26. Read your bank's TOS lately? by winkydink · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Many of them now say something to the effect of the customer having take "reasonable care" to protect themselves from identity theft / being hacked. If you don't, then no money back for you.

    --

    "I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey

    1. Re:Read your bank's TOS lately? by Jack+Pallance · · Score: 4, Funny
      Funny story, I opened a checking account a couple of years ago and I was wondering if there was any possiblity of protecting my account by requiring all withdrawals be made at the bank or by check (No EFTs from websites, etc). Of course, this isn't possible because of the way the banking system works (banks don't send actual checks to each other, they just send the information electronicly, the same as an EFT).

      The funny part is, when I asked the branch manager what could be done, he tole me, "Just don't give your account number to anyone." Basicly, he told me to never use any checks from my account, because ALL OF THEM HAVE MY ACCOUNT NUMBER! If I write a check to someone, he can then take the check, go onto the Internets, and sign up for pron using CCBill and the account number at the bottom of my check.

      Thanks Mr. Manager!!

  27. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by iamacat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How are phishing emails different than, say, somebody calling you on the phone pretending to be from your bank's credit card department? If you fall for it, who should be responsible?

    Not much. When a bank calls, Caller ID should show bank's name rather than "Private Caller" from some call center in India. When a bank sends an e-mail it should be digitally signed. My credit card should generate (say, with a keypad and LCD) one time use authorization numbers based on the charge amount. As long as the bank doesn't give users a way to distinguish between legitimate and fraudulent communication, they should be responsible for the results.

  28. We ALL have to take responsibility by cycle003 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Financial institutions have the responsibility to protect us from unauthorized access to our accounts. It should then be the burden of the institution to show that the account holder was at fault.

    However, We ALL have to take responsibility

    As a consumer,
    1) never enter personal information in response to e-mail initiated requests, etc. 2) report suspicious emails, websites, etc. 3) Use common sense (nevermind, that'll never work)

    As for the banks,
    1) Provide security measures to reduce chances of phising losses; while authentication is not perfect, it's a decent start (althoug I find it pretty annoying) 2) Educate their customers 3) Need to offer an easy, user-friendly way to report phishing (PayPal does a good job of this) 4) Make their policies clear; if they won't cover losses due to phishing attacks, we should know before putting our money in their hands 5) If they can't sustain the losses, then they need a new business model; what do banks do with those $30 fees that they love to ambush everyone with

    Now the Government,
    1) NEEDS TO PROSECUTE OFFENDERS by enforcing existing laws; it's amazing how apathetic the authorities are towards identity theft, etc. 2) Ensure laws are adequate for protecting consumers and prosecuting offenders 3) Educate the people

  29. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by kilgortrout · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The bank has done plenty wrong - they've allowed an unauthorized party to access your account and withdraw funds. They've cultivated a business model where financial transactions can be conducted over and insecure network without adequate identity verification and they've done so knowing full well that the network is rife with phishing scams which capitalize on those weaknesses. If they can now shift any loses back to the customer, there will be no incentive for the banks to improve security.

  30. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by LordKronos · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is not a security issue, so the banks can't improve it.

    Of course it's a security issue. All I need to do to is get your account number and the banks routing number and I can initial an ACH electronic funds transfer against your account. There is no sort of security in place where you can whitelist banks/accounts for initiating an ACH against your account.

    Now you might say it's the customers job to better protect their info. Well guess what. You're in line at the grocery store writing out your check. See me behind you in line talking on the cell phone? Guess what...I'm not actually on the phone. I just used my camera phone to snap a photo of your check, which contains ALL of the information I'd need to get the bank to do an ACH transfer out of your account.

    Now tell me...does that still not sound like a security issue?

  31. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by ElleyKitten · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Given a few large lawsuits, banks will probably have to sign up for fraud insurance. But if their insurers set their rates based on an assesors' estimate of their security, it'll be in their best interests to improve security to get the cheapest policy possible.
    I think you're not understanding the concept of phishing. Phishing is where scammers pretend to be a bank or whatever so someone will give them their bank account information. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the bank's security. It doesn't involve the bank's website, the bank's databases, or anything else the bank can control. It involves a fake email and a fake website and a confused person. In fact, I'm sure if a bank totally stopped doing online transactions altogether they'd still have a few customers fall victim to phishing. There just isn't much banks can do to stop it.

    It's unfortunate, but unless the phishers can be found (which is pretty much never) the customer has to be the one to bear responsibility. They need to keep track of who they give their information to, and while they don't deserve to lose all their money, others who didn't make the mistake shouldn't have to take responsibility for it. It sucks, but that's life.
    --
    "What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
  32. Bruce Schneier gets it right again... by cutecub · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In a Wired article from last year, Bruce Schneier said some very sensible things on this subject:

    Push the responsibility -- all of it -- for identity theft onto the financial institutions, and phishing will go away. This fraud will go away not because people will suddenly get smart and quit responding to phishing e-mails, because California has new criminal penalties for phishing, or because ISPs will recognize and delete the e-mails. It will go away because the information a criminal can get from a phishing attack won't be enough for him to commit fraud -- because the companies won't stand for all those losses.

    I think this is absolutely right. Faced with the financial losses of phishing, banks will simply institute procedures, technologies and processes to protect against fraudulent financial TRANSACTIONS. Doubtless, banks will gripe and complain about their new liability. But it was exactly this same liability that made personal credit cards viable - and gave birth to a multi-billion dollar industry.


    -Sean
  33. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Two factor would make phishing harder, but what we really need is better built-in browser support for two factor auth as an extension to the HTTPS protocol.

    In an ideal world, the browser supports two factor auth for access to the website via http auth, but would put up a warning that says "WARNING: Your password is being sent insecurely. (Send Anyway) ((Cancel))" if the connection is not encrypted with a properly signed cert. This authentication should require you to key in your account name, pin number, and password in separate fields and should be displayed by the browser, not as a web page that can be faked. By so doing, you basically eliminate the possibility of a phishing attack using an unencrypted channel that looks like the encrypted channel enough to fool someone into giving up the needed information.

    With that single change, you have a solution that will dramatically reduce phishing attacks, as it requires the phishers to have a legitimate signed SSL cert, which means there is (in theory) a solid paper trail leading back to them. Phishing expeditions that involve SSL are very, very rare by comparison to the unsecured versions, require a much greater financial investment, are much more likely to result in a successful arrest and prosecution (because of the paper trail from obtaining the cert and the requirement that such certs are tied to a valid domain name, both of which make it harder to use hijacked machines as servers).

    Unfortunately, it's a chicken and egg problem. The browser vendors probably won't add such authentication mechanisms into the browsers unless sites want it, and banking sites aren't willing to spend money on two-factor devices unless they provide a tangible benefit (and without such browser support, they really don't).

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  34. Oh Dear by mbrett · · Score: 2, Informative
    If you go to the Bank of Ireland's "Security and Online Fraud" page, you'll find no instructions on how to report phishing/scamming attempts to them. Instead they suggest forwarding the mail to the local Gardai/Police, or, with no smiley faces even, the abuse address of the remitter's ISP (abuse@hotmail.com, etc).

    So the Bank of Ireland hasn't a clue about forged From: addresses, encourages customers to involve innocent ISP's abuse departments, and takes no interest in pursuing malicious emails involving its own name. It suggests the police might care more about the Bank's security than the bank itself.

    IMHO the BOI has no business berating its own customers for not having a clue/care, especially when they demonstrate so little themselves.

  35. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by terrymr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Huh ?

    Should it really be possible to drain somebody's account using only their account number & routing number ? Both of those pieces of information are available to anybody you give a check to for a start. Now tell me this isn't a security issue.

  36. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by vijayiyer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Agreed, but this article is in the context of phishing scams. I would argue that there's a difference between someone impersonating an individual to the bank (like the example you gave), and impersonating the bank to the individual (phishing). In the case of you describe, the individual, is being impersonated, and the bank is the one involved in the transaction. I would agree that they need superior authentication systems in that case. In the case of phishing, however, the bank, through no fault of theirs, is being impersonated. A gullible individual will likely provide any information required for a bank transfer, including the information to change the whitelist. The same gullible individual would likely not even set up such a whitelist. Since the bank isn't a party to any of this communication, I think that the individual, rather than the bank, should be held accountable in this scenario.

  37. Can Banks Shift Phishing Losses to Customers? by iminplaya · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm sure they would love to. But we must not let them. We put our money in banks because it's supposed to be more secure than keeping it under the mattress. If they don't secure our money, then we have no reason to let them keep and profit from it. Phishing is a problem because the banks are too loose, lazy, cheap, etc. etc. etc. And it's way too easy for them to simply write off the losses. And we accept anything they tell us too easily. We presently have the same problem with the government. If they shift the problem to the customer, then it will get much worse. Make it their problem, and don't allow undue inconvenience to the customer, and it will decrease dramatically. Put your money back under the mattress until they fix it. For a really quick fix, burn your credit cards.

    By now, I'm sure this is all very redundant, but it doesn't make it any less important. You have the power to change things. Use it or lose it.

    --
    What?
  38. Re:Bands & Customers should exercise due dilig by kebes · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Now, why aren't flags raised when $30,000 is taken out of a bank account electronically from an unusual location? A phone call to the account holder would be nice.

    I actually know someone who fell for a phishing email. The bank called him up the next day, and asked if he had authorized two $700.00 transfers to out-of-country accounts. He said "no." and they dutifully marked it as fraud. So apparently (some) banks do monitor transactions and flag anything that looks strange.

    Similarly I've often had my credit card company call me to confirm transactions that appeared dubious. Often within hours of making an unusual purchase, they'll respond. The response time makes me suspect that they have computers watching transactions using heuristics to pick out unusual transactions.

    So at least anecdotally, some banks are proactive enough to prevent phishing from generating losses for customers or themselves.

  39. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by FLEB · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There's ways involving using VOIP gateways, and also a few that just involve routing your call through so many third parties that an operator just comes on and asks "What's your number?". Also, I believe anyone with a PBX (PBX? Is that correct? I should know this.) can set their CID to whatever they want. There's another level of identification-- ANI-- that's much more difficult to spoof, but you generally have to be on the recieving end of a toll-free number to be get that info.

    --
    Information wants to be free.
    Entertainment wants to be paid.
    You just want to be cheap.
  40. Same here by p51d007 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ANY suspicious mail that falls into my hotmail box (usually paypal, or ebay) I immediately go to the official sites and send them as much as I can. Usually, within an hour or so, the site in question has been taken down. If more people like us (hard core computer users) would take the lead in reporting phishers as quickly as possible, instead of deleting the junk mail, maybe it would help cut down on phishers. It only takes a minute or two to report them. Also, if we could do what we can with our relatives (we all know they call US when something goes haywire), to explain and show them what not to do, maybe it would go away. My dad has gotten in the habit of calling me on the phone before clicking on a linked website if he isn't sure. He even called me one time when he was going to buy something online, and he didn't see "the padlock" or the https in firefox. If we can get others in the habit of what to look for, phishing could be reduced. I'd much rather take a call from a friend or family member asking if a site is legit, then have them get scammed, or their computer hosed.

  41. How Phishing Works by The+Famous+Brett+Wat · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You underestimate the problem. Phishing is actually a two-pronged attack -- or at least this is my experience in Australia. (Not that I've fallen victim, but I've conversed quite a bit with those that have.) The first prong of the attack is the fake bank message and website that we all know and loathe. The second prong doesn't even look remotely related: it's usually an employment scam, like the Norway Consulting Employment Scam which is arriving in my inbox with tedious regularity.

    This is how it works. Phisher P (probably located in Russia, or nearby) obtains access to online bank account of victim V. At the same time, P also runs a job scam like the "Norway Consulting" job scam and ropes in "employee" E, who happens to have an account at the same bank. E is told that their job involves accepting payments from customers and forwarding the money via Western Union or Money Gram. (The exact pretext may change, but the money transfer part remains steadfastly constant.) So P then transfers funds from V to E, then contacts E and has him quickly withdraw the money and go make a Western Union transfer. By the time anyone realises that they've been had, P has his money and has vanished. The remaining question is whether the loss is to be borne by V for being a sucker, E for being a dupe, or all the bank's customers generally.

    --
    proof, n. A demonstration that a conclusion is implied by certain premises and axioms.
  42. Bruce Schneier obviously isn't in financial IT. by daemonenwind · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As someone who does work in the systems of a top-10 US card issuer, I can tell you we lose over 3 million USD to fraud every MONTH. And the company I work for is nowhere close to being the biggest! (The top couple of banks are separated by a decimal place worth of volume from the rest)

    As most of you probably know, banks make money by earning a small amount of money on each of a lot of transactions. $3 million worth of loss takes a LOT of transactions.

    Every time some fraud scheme comes up on Slashdot, everyone bitches that the banks don't do enough.
    Do you really, truly think that banks aren't interested in plugging a $3 million/month leak?

    The problem is that, a lot like hackers vs. DRM - or spammers vs. every geek on Earth - the people looking to break the system are always one step ahead.

    Phishing will die off on the same day we geeks manage to stop the last spammer. They have similar tactics, and do at some points overlap. And, since we are much better equipped than banks to fight that battle, and we have yet to win, you can assume that day is far off.

    Remember, banks are in the business of making transactions, not software. Keep in mind what you're asking them to be good at is in no way how they make money. Find/invent a solution yourself and sell it to them. I guarantee they'll be interested, so long as your answer costs less than $3 million USD/year.

  43. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by d2ksla · · Score: 2, Informative
    the individual, rather than the bank, should be held accountable in this scenario.

    I don't agree.

    The online banking security is too weak if it is based just on a piece of information (username+password). There's already been cases of viruses that do keylogging to gather online banking information for criminals.

    The security needs to be based on a combination of something that you know (username+password), plus something you have (e.g. ATM card). No virus can steal your ATM card, and if your wallet gets stolen your PIN code is hopefully unknown to the thief

    I've used online banking both in Sweden and in the US.

    In the US, the online bank security seems to be about par with Slashdot's. Once someone has your username+password, they can get your money.

    In Sweden most (all?) banks don't let you transfer money from your online account with just a username+password. You also need a one-time code for each transfer. These are either generated by a small device, or sent out on credit-card sized cards with ~100 codes. This is a little bit more cumbersome, but it sure feels more safe, especially when using public terminals that may have keyloggers on them.

    I mean, seriously, how useful/safe is online banking if you can only use it on your own computer (because of possible keyloggers on public terminals), and even at home you have to make damn sure that you didn't get a keylogging virus through the latest security exploit???

  44. Re:I say, "Yes. Yes they should." by mike2R · · Score: 2, Insightful

    TFA isn't talking about an all or nothing situation though - it's talking about banks trying to refuse to cover losses where the customer has definately been negligent.

    Take an extreme example. If I posted my online banking details here, and someone used them to drain my account, should I really be able to turn round to the bank and tell them they should refund me since it's a cost of doing business?

    Obvioulsy real cases are much more of a grey area, and to be honest I'm not to sure where I stand or where I'd draw the line, but I do think there is at least a hypothetical level of idiocy which the banks shouldn't be obliged to compensate.

    --
    This sig all sigs devours
  45. Re:Checks? Here? by LordKronos · · Score: 2, Informative

    You're in line at the grocery store writing out your check[sic].

    In this case, 'sic' must stand for "spelling is correct". From Merriam-Webster:

    Main Entry: 1check
    Pronunciation: 'chek
    Function: noun .....
    7 : a written order directing a bank to pay money as instructed : DRAFT

    Main Entry: cheque
    Pronunciation: 'chek
    chiefly British variant of 1CHECK 7