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New Tolkien Story To be Published
vingilot writes "CNN reports that Christopher Tolkien has edited and will release a new book by his father. From the article: 'Christopher Tolkien has spent the past 30 years working on "The Children of Hurin," an epic tale his father began in 1918 and later abandoned. Excerpts of "The Children of Hurin," which includes the elves and dwarfs of Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings" and other works, have been published before.'"
Well the article at least makes it seem like Tolkein abandoned it due to time pressures or something similar, as opposed to considering the work to be sub-standard. The fact that he included exerpts in his other works would seem to be a good sign.
The time you take to complete a job doesn't necessarily correlate to the quality of the job done.
:)
Example: I've been working on cleaning out my house's attic for just over 11 years now, and my wife still says I'm doing a crappy job of it.
So, the son of a man so brilliant in imagination, his entire lifespan was not enough to finish his own work, cleans up, releases and generally attempts to carry on his father's work. Yeah, really sounds like a greedy asshole.
And quite frankly, I cheer CT's opinions of the movies. I found myself able to stomach Jackson's Fellowship, at least.. I can see the reasoning for Bombadil's disappearance, and I can even stow away sufficient ire to forgive Xenarwen. (It's a movie; one can only have so many minor characters, after all.)
Jackson's The Two Towers and Return of the Horrible, Hackneyed Fantasy Plot were horrible butchery of Tolkien's work. One must understand that in translations from book to film, things will change. There is absolutely no excuse for the wanton and brutal destruction of characters that Jackson is guilty of. Destruction of characters.. it stretches even far worse. Tolkien devoted a paragraph to describing the crown of Gondor, and Jackson couldn't even manage to get that even remotely correct. My god, when one can't translate a simple prop from book to film, how can one manage to translate the important things, such as the story?
CT is no JRR - there was only one JRR, and unless the world is very fortunate indeed, we'll likely never glimpse another so brilliant. Regardless of this, CT does damned fine work. You claim The Silmarillion lacked editting? Why, pray tell, would it need editting? It was quite obvious in line with what JRR wanted - he had taken it to publishers, who refused it effectively on the grounds of 'people are stupid'. I certainly won't argue with the publishers, but The Silmarillion was JRR's true masterpiece. The Hobbit is a mere children's story, and The Lord of the Rings was 'dumbed down' (for lack of better words) to appeal to a broad audience.
If you want to see a son doing horrible things, go talk to Brian Herbert. CT is far removed from the accusations you baselessly spew at him.
Some people have a true gift for language, some people are able to master language, and then there are the offspring of respected writers. Whether it be Tolkien or Herbert, the younger generation always manages to trample on the legacy left by their ancestors. Go read some of C. Tolkien's early attempts at extending his father's legacy. You'll quickly see what I mean.
So the question is, will there actually be anything new in here that readers haven't seen before, or is it merely pulling bits from various texts and stitching them together in a fresh binding? Sounds like the latter to me...
Considering he is somewhat of a Tolkien scholar and has worked on this 30 years, I doubt that it is just a hodgepodge of works. There probably is a bit of truth to the money grab in that the recent success of the LOTR movies probably encouraged him to finish editing and/or publishers to publish the work.
No, but it does give some indication of motive. If I'm looking to make a quick buck, I sure don't spend 30 years turning it into a rather slow buck.
Most of the books released by Christopher Tolkien since his father's death have been predominantly 'new' material. There are meant to be many, many files full of manuscripts that J. R. Tolkien wrote but never published in book form.
I'm extremely glad to see that some more have been put together into what I'm sure will be another amazing book.
Right, well first, he didn't leave the Silmarillion "untouched". In fact, the Silmarillion, in current form, was a vast collection of disparate notes. Also, the "JRRT" editing you're referring to was more likely the editing of Tolkien's ... what would you call it ... EDITOR. Tolkien himself stated that his personal preference was for swaths of chit-chat between Hobbits, with much less emphasis on the grand literary style that we all love.
I'm just guessing that you really don't have a good idea of how J.R.R. and Christopher really were and are. His son reveres his father's work, and does not claim it as his own. The Unfinished Tales, Silmarillion, and various other books that have been put out under Tolkien's name, are mostly the various stages of Tolkien's works. If you ever bother to read them all (perhaps you have already?) you'll see an amazing cross-section of not only Tolkien's works, but his entire life. And for that, his son deserves thanks, not ridicule.
I always thought there were (at least) three really solid books to come out of the Silmarillion - the story of Feanor and his kids, the story of Tuor and Gondolin, and the story of Hurin and his kids. All three are much better in the History of Middle Earth series than the Silmarillion (which was an awful book if you liked to follow characters for more than a chapter or two).
I'm looking forward to a newly fleshed out story, although it does feel a little like Christopher Tolkien keeps on discovering just a little more each time, in a way that would ensure a steady flow of books. "Oh look, here's a bit more of the story!" (two years later) "And underneath that bit was even more of the story! It's a shame I didn't think to keep looking before publishing." (two years later) "Well, what do you know! Some more of the story! Who could've imagined! Stap me vitals and so on."
But I'm being unkind here.
I'd also love to see a movie based on this story. Especially since Morgoth would play a prominent role. Unlike Sauron, he actually has a speaking role in the Middle Earth stories, and is a far more complex and interesting character. That, and he's got Balrogs leading his armies. Not that they could fly of course (the eagles of Manwe really hated them doing that).
It's almost like you're saying Chris Tolkien is only pimping incomplete scraps of his fathers work to make a cheap buck for himself. If that were true, you'd expect him to have written a bunch more books with "Tolkien" in really big print on the back, in an attempt to fool the ignorant into buying what amounts to extremely amaturish fanfict.
(Special place in hell reserved for Chris Tolkien and Frank Herbert Jr.)
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
Actually, he added on to the joke by providing a more concrete example that a specific group of people could relate to, therefore making it funny!
Don't be an asshat.
This is a joke right? I can't believe that it's not modded funny. Kevin Anderson the finest writer in Fantasy and Sci-Fi? Hardly. Widely acknowledged? By whom? The finest in either genre? You gotta be kidding. He's competent but no J.R.R.. And Chris Tolkein is just a hack. If this volume were finished by a true master like Ursula Le Guin, Guy Kay or even Lois Bujold, I'd already have my order in where ever it was sold. If it is a lightly edited volume, like the Silmarillion, I'll be thrilled. You can plainly see the original author's style and brilliance. However, if this is the same quality as Anderson's work with Brian Herbert on the "Dune" books it should stay buried.
The Silmarillion was a fantastic compilation of Tolkien's cosmology/myth. I'll even go as far to say that I enjoyed the Silmarillion more than The Lord of the Rings.
why run from Vincenzo?
There are meant to be many, many files full of manuscripts that J. R. Tolkien wrote but never published in book form. I never saw that as being a good thing. There are reasons why authors don't publish every little thing they write, and it probably because they realized it was crap. They really shouldn't be publsihing stuff a writer didn't want published after they're dead, to say nothing of 'finishing' their work. Its almost never worth it.
My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...
I don't really see any easy answer either way, actually.
This dilemma happens to every popular artist after they die. (Obviously, if they're not popular, there won't be any demand anyway and no dilemma) Often they didn't publish the stuff because it they didn't consider it 'done', or they didn't feel it was 'good enough'. Many (most?) great artists have very high standards in that respect.
The problem is that while those concerns may have meant a lot to the artist, they mean nothing now. If people are still interested long after their death, then their reputation is beyond tainting. There is absolutely nothing Chris Tolkien could release, no matter how bad, that would taint J.R.R.'s reputation, since everyone will know that the man himself considered it to be sub-par. Nobody is going to judge him by it.
Now, to take another example: Franz Kafka. He published little during his life, and wanted all his writings destroyed after his death, at which time he was virtually unknown. Obviously that didn't happen, since he's now regarded as one of the 20th century's greatest writers.
His friend Max Brod was the one who published the material. Who is prepared to condemn him? I'm not.
I guess the ethic that I'm suggesting is this: You can't blindly obey someone's wishes, even their last wishes, without considering the motives. There are a lot of possible ones for wanting something to go unpublished. The artist might've considered it too personal, and I think that might be grounds for obeying. But if the motive was a concern the work wasn't up-to-standard, then you might be able to disregard it.
In Kafka's case, I think it suffices to say that the guy had enough self-loathing and self-destructive emotions to fill a Goth club several times over.
I know that I have works from my father and I've extended them in my own interest, but always with the intent to honor my father and his inspiration. Maybe young Tolkein thinks in the same fashion? He is bringing his fathers work to life. Just another viewpoint.
There are a lots of people here bashing the Tolkien works that were released after J.R.R death. Have any of you actually looked any of these books? Given that most of these books are very dense and very scholarly works, it's highly doubtful that Christopher Tolkien edited them just to make a quick buck. The intended audience for these books was just too small for that.
When J.R.R died, he left literally thousands of pages of unpublished pages, many that he had been working on for decades. It would have been a real shame for this stuff to vanish forever. And Christopher Tolkien's contribution is usually just editing. He is generally very careful to separate his father's words from his commentary (usually with a different font).
So I'm guessing either you're dismissing or have not read the Similarion?
I think that anyone who has read Christopher Tolkien's notes and commentary on Unfinished Tales knows that his respect for his father's work goes far beyond what words can describe. To suggest otherwise is, frankly, an insult to the man who must be considered _the_ Tolkien scholar of the world.
Dude, he's 80 years old. I highly doubt he's greedy. He (as far as I can tell) doesn't do any actual writing, but rather editing, and given his father's incredibly messy and convoluted notes and considering CT's experience with his father's work, I don't think you could find anyone who could do a better job.
Donaldson and White are both good, and Gaiman is excellent, but none of them are anything close to JRR in terms of literary backgrounds and depth of talent.
Basically, you have one guy who knows the inside of his father's head better than anyone else and is the best editor you're going to get on the subject. No other writer would have the experience or the background to do it justice, and no editor would have enough context.
Basically, while CT isn't the world's best editor, he's as good as you're going to get given the circumstances. Anyone else would do a worse job, in one way or another - maybe X editor would make it more readable, but screw up some minute detail and maybe X writing would make it more interesting and digestible, but be a hack in the end in comparison.
In the long run, you want the person who will do it the best justice and CT is the only candidate when it comes to that. Anyone else would be worse, in one fashion or another. Would you really want that?
In this case though, it went unpublished due to time constraints.
While I would love to believe that this is not a ploy for more money, I find it hard to swallow.
Christopher Tolkien is 82 years old-- do you really think he's plotting to make millions?
Tolkien's children were actually involved with many of the Tolkien's legendarium. One of my copies of the LotR contains an essay by Tolkien where he talked about his family. Tolkien would discuss ideas with his children, let them read early drafts, they would point out inconstancies... I don't think Tolkien did this for all off the works, but this tradition started young-- The Hobbit was originally written specifically for the Tolkien children.
Christoper Tolkien probably understands the Tolkien legendarium more then anyone in the world-- and probably read the notes for "The Children of Hurin" 50 years ago.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
I agree 100% as far as Frank Herbert Jr. There should be a special space in hell reserved for people like him. For people who shit on everything their fathers built.
Also, It is also quite obvious that Herbert Jr has written his books. They are written using the current modern American literature style which is beaten into kids in college. I still remember by own brush up with this experience with horror 15+ years later. It is the same style as used by Terry Brooks, Stephen Donaldson and most of the modern American Sci Fi/Fantasy writers. There are lots of repeats and a single idea is reiterated at least 3-4 times to ensure that the dumb reader gets it. The vocabulary is a fraction of the vocabulary of most of the older generation like Herbert Sr, Zelazny, Le Guin, Bradbury (in fact from the old generation - everybody but Azimov). The overall lexical construction is quite primitive as well. It is quite obvious who wrote these books.
As far as Chris Tolkien the situation is not so straightforward. He published at least one clearly and purely J.R.R. Tolkien Book - the Silmarilion. That was J.R.R. Tolkien all the way and if not for Chris Tolkien, it would have failed to see the light of day (it was published postmortem). The Unifinished Tales seem to be what junior sells them for - drafts, notes and unfinished tales. Looking at the style and vocabulary they also seem to be a J.R.R. Tolkien work, just quite what it says on the tin - unfinished.
I have no idea about this new book, but I hope that he does not join Hurbert junior in that circle of hell. He has done not that bad so far. He has shown some his dad's dirty laundry (stuff j.r.r. never intended to be published) but he has not shit on his grave just yet (or I missed that one in the bookshop).
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Isn't that sort of what happened to Feanor in the Silmarillion? (s/human/elvish)
If you've read the History of Middle-Earth series, which really is a collection of notes, you'd see that the text of the Silmarillion is indeed J.R.R Tolkien's own writing. There are even facsimiles of 70 year-old manuscripts, unless you want to accuse Christopher Tolkien of forging those too. The sparse, vaguely epic style of the Silmarillion as it appeared in print is how Tolkien wrote it from the very beginning. Those who find it strange because "it's not like Lord of the Rings" are forgetting the fact that that trilogy was penned first as a sequel to a children's book (The Hobbit, of course) so of course its style was going to be different. Only one chapter of the Silmarillion had to be penned outright by Christopher Tolkien, and it is the shortest one.
I'm reading the Silmarillion right now for the first time, and I think it is nothing short of astonishing. In some ways it is a far greater achievement than the Lord of the Rings.
I'm a bit of an amature scholar of celtic mythology and I have read translations of works ranging from the Tain Bo Cuailnge and the Mabinogion to the Triads of Britain and the Historia Regum Britanniae.
Tolkien created one of the only works of fiction that captures the structure and feel of these complied ancient texts. That's not to say that it has a tight narrative structure or is easy to read. It was not intended to be. The LOTR is structurally very much like the 12th century Aurthurian romances (which were really the earliest novels.) It is a relatively linear quest narrative. The Silmarillion, on the other hand, attempts and succeeds in emulating a very different and older form of literature.
To suggest that the Silmarillion is mearly a collection of notes complied by a hack is only a display of misunderstanding. For instance, the collection of stories we know today as the Red Branch saga are a bunch of smaller stories collected around a central narrative. How Cuchullain got his name, Cuchullain and Emer, The Wasting Sickness of Cuchullain, etc. all provide back story to the Tain bo Cuailnge (the cattle raid of Cooley.) Just like the early chapters in the Silmarillion setup the central narrative of the Silmarills. Tolkien wrote these stories over the course of his adult life. Like other works of ancient mythology it was compliled later by someone other than the original author.
If you liked the Silmarillion for more than the fact that it was backstory to the LOTR, the I would highly recommened these works of real mythology:
The Thomas Kinsella translation of The Tain,
The Jeffery Ganz translation of the Mabinogion,
Lady Gregory's Gods and Fighting Men, and
The Seamus Heany translation of Beowulf.
-- QED