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IBM's Interest in Red Flag Linux

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the blue-and-red-is-purple dept.

eldavojohn writes "For those of you unfamiliar with Red Flag Linux, it's an OS for the growing Chinese community of Linux users. Interestingly enough, IBM is looking to support Red Flag Linux as the next distribution of Linux that its more than 300 applications will run on. Support from a huge vendor like IBM certainly raises the rate of adoption of a distribution of Linux so this is certainly good news for Red Flag Linux and also the Chinese open source users. IBM currently supports Red Hat and SUSE Linux, which creates twice as much testing for each of their applications. Will Red Flag Linux cause them to require three times the amount of normal testing?"

97 comments

  1. This is a good thing. by miffo.swe · · Score: 4, Informative

    If IBM is smart they will target LSB (Linux Standard Base). Then they will ask the distributions to please conform to that standard. If anything this is the kind of thing that could work on unify Linux even better if done right. Ofcourse testing will have to be done anyway but the likelyhood of problems will be very small for every new distribution supported.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
    1. Re:This is a good thing. by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, if they're smart they will do what it takes to get a foot into the door in China, which has a potential market 5 times the size of the U.S. Then they can use their early-supporter status to influence Red Hat's direction, which I agree should be toward LSB.

      --
      My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    2. Re:This is a good thing. by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

      The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. I believe our herring-scented idol wrote that.

      --
      I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    3. Re:This is a good thing. by teg · · Score: 3, Informative

      RHEL and SLES are both LSB certified already - the problem is that LSB doesn't specify enough to be useful. An LSB-compliant application needs to include everything outside the LSB scope in itself, which ends up being the OS minus the X libraries and glibc (I'm exagerrating, but not that much). LSB is the lowest common denominator, and a very static target, in a world of rapid evolvement (e.g. GNOME every 6 months, new compilers, new glibcs etc).

    4. Re:This is a good thing. by diersing · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Right on, its about market share and nothing more. I'm surprise more vendors are bending over backwards to get a shot on the growing Chinese markets. Not that I'm a communist, but I could definity see a communist country embracing the open standards Linux offers to build the infrastructure for tomorrow's technology landscape. When Chinese users without the dispospal income of Westerns want a home PC I wonder which "free" OS might fill the need?

    5. Re:This is a good thing. by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      a pirated copy of Windows? Free as in beer!

    6. Re:This is a good thing. by kestasjk · · Score: 1

      Especially with Vista's new anti-piracy measures and China's recent anti-piracy pledges. It could be a real foothold for Linux.

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    7. Re:This is a good thing. by qinglong · · Score: 1

      oh, so right now it is still a case of develop once, debug everywhere?
      that is so java!

    8. Re:This is a good thing. by posdnous · · Score: 1
      I hear this quote all the time,

      China, which has a potential market 5 times the size of the U.S


      China only has a potential market 5 times larger if you are selling rice...If you are selling anything else, the POTENTIAL market is exponentially smaller than the U.S...even if you extrapolate out 20 years.
    9. Re:This is a good thing. by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      POSIX didn't get us anywhere, why would LSB?

    10. Re:This is a good thing. by God+Of+Atheism · · Score: 1

      I don't see what communism has to do with it. I'm aware that a lot of people do call China communist, but it's a misnomer, there is no equidistribution of power in China, so it's not communist.

  2. There's only one problem with Red Flag Linux by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... aside from the obvious(it raises a red flag with right-wingers ...)

    ... an hour after you finish installing it, you want to install it again.

    1. Re:There's only one problem with Red Flag Linux by Square+Snow+Man · · Score: 1
      an hour after you finish installing it, you want to install it again.
      Can you elaborate that?
    2. Re:There's only one problem with Red Flag Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      good ol' redmond. Always there to remind you how lucky linux users are.

      Love my kubuntu!

  3. Red Flag and Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Wait, wasn't Red Flag Linux in some trouble with the GPL a few years back for making changes to open source programs and not making those changes public? Were those issues ever resolved, or do they still technically violate the GPL?

  4. Editorializing... by PhoenixK7 · · Score: 1

    What's with the inane editorializing in the OP? 3 times as much testing? So what, I'm sure IBM has the resources to burn and might hire more people if they need them...

    1. Re:Editorializing... by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      No decent PTC has "resources to burn". If the company is doing right by its shareholders then there should be a nominal float of staff to cover 80% load (or 100% average run rate). Then when a peak comes in you are slightly understaffed and either slip or hire temps (if possible). Only the government is always fully staffed.
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    2. Re:Editorializing... by jusdisgi · · Score: 1

      Uh...maybe in an intro econ or management course. Here in the real world, any large company will typically have some resources not being fully used. Layoffs are both logistically difficult and politically distasteful.

      On the other hand, I think the underlying assumption the blurb makes is the bigger problem. Who says that supporting two Linux distributions takes big blue twice as long as it would to support one? For my part I consider that ridiculous on its face. The second system you test on should never take as long as the first, even if they share very little in common. For two extremely similar systems like these, the extra time should be minor. I'm sure IBM has a very clear idea of how much extra time it's taking them to support 2 distros, and for that matter how long it'll take to support three. And I'll bet dollars to donuts that for all three it's way, way less than double the time it would have taken to handle one.

      --
      Given a choice between free speech and free beer, most people will take the beer.
    3. Re:Editorializing... by PhoenixK7 · · Score: 1

      Agree with the additions of the sibling comment here, but if you want to argue on the level of shareholders: IBM wouldn't be interested in this if they didn't think they could gain more than they would have to spend.

      Also, if you've ever worked within ANY large organization, there's always waste and resources that could be put to better use. No company will ever achieve a theoretical high in productivity, at least not for long periods, it's just part of human nature. That said, improvements in management, working environments, and motivation levels for staff alone could certainly pick up the slack to add a bunch of certification programs, unless IBM is seriously different than any of the large organizations I've seen the inside of.

  5. Also interesting in TFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Jollans also addressed a question about why IBM did not release its own Linux distribution several years ago.

    "We thought that if IBM was in the market as an 800-pound gorilla, it would have a negative effect on the Linux market. We won't do something that sets us against the community," he said.

    Thoughts?

    1. Re:Also interesting in TFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Erm, isn't lending support to RedHat and SuSE tipping the balance (by as much as the 800-pound gorilla)?

      One might have expected IBM to put its resources behind a distro with a better-than-average "internationalisation"
      if it wants to be able to grow in international markets. Too bad they haven't been paying attention to Mandriva.

              "When one door closes another one opens (but maybe not for you :-)."

  6. Asianux by raffe · · Score: 4, Informative

    Red flag is based of Asianux which is based on red hat.The current release version of Asianux is 2.0 , which is based upon Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4. Asianux 1.0 was based upon Red Hat Enterprise Linux 3. The first releases of red flag was very poor quality. Asianux is a joint development between Linux vendors Red Flag , Miracle Linux Corporation and Haansoft .

    1. Re:Asianux by ajs · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the fact that Red Flag (I still have my version 2.0 in shrink-wrap on my desk) is sponsored in part by money from the Chinese government. It began back when the Chinese were making noises about not being able to trust American hardware (probably more for the fact that 90% of it was from Taiwan than the fact that it was sold by Americans, but there's some concern in the latter too).

      Not that any of that really means much, but it's useful historical context to keep in mind.

  7. times as much testing? by enrevanche · · Score: 1

    This is ridiculous. Most of the testing is done on one platform. When it's finished, testing on other platforms is usually not that time consuming.

    1. Re:times as much testing? by minionman · · Score: 1

      You're completely wrong - there are a number of subtle differences between the platforms that requires a fair amount of additional testing. Distribution to distribution, you end up with a lot of version mismatches between the distros. One version might have the pam modules at 1.7.2, another might have 1.7.4 (version numbers are arbitrary, not necessarily correct) and thats one of the difficulties in testing your products on multiple distributions. Mix that with the differing base installs and the amount of customization you're allowed to do during installation and you've got a testing hell hole that requires near full testing on each distribution of linux you want to support.

    2. Re:times as much testing? by anzev · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is not true. Testing is time consuming because in a commercial environemnt you HAVE TO test ALL THE FEATUREs on ALL THE SUPPORTED PLATFORMS. Testing is not what most users think, that you just run the app, click a few buttons and that's it. The common mentality is, as it appears:

      "Ok, let's test this on OS A, and if there are errors fix them, otherwise, see if the program also runs on other OSes and that's it".

      Sorry to dissapoint you, wrong! You need a test plan. The test plan specifies how to test each feature (steps to acomplish it). These test plans have to be carried out on any given platform that you mark as SUPPORTED. There is the obvious difference between supported and "it also runs on". Maybe a quick example of why testing the features is important. Java for example, on Windows and on Linux behaves differently. In particular, it treats String objects differently. On Windows it is legal to compare two strings like this:

      if(str1 == str2)

      But this approach fails on Linux. And it's also technically more correct to write:

      if(str1 == null || str2 == null) throw new IllegalArgumentException();
      if(str1.equals(str2))...

      Even testing between different distrbutions can be a problem due to versions and "uncontrolled" API of open source applications. In our company we had to test (this is execute the test plan) on a few different Linux distributions because we tested it on Debian and it didn't work on Red Hat!

    3. Re:times as much testing? by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1
      On Windows it is legal to compare two strings like this:

      if(str1 == str2)


      Actually... no, it isn't. I was doing Java development this summer (on Java 1.5), and I did that a few times by accident, and it doesn't work. It asks whether str1 and str2 are the same String object, rather than asking whether the strings contained in them are equal.
      --
      I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    4. Re:times as much testing? by anzev · · Score: 1

      You're right, sorry, I should have written, it used to be legal (1.4.2). Still, the point is the same yet even more enforced I think.

    5. Re:times as much testing? by nwbvt · · Score: 1

      Well, aside from the fact that all three operating systems mentioned are Linux and thus the platform dependent issues you mention are rather moot...

      Most of the errors that come up during testing are not platform dependent, but occur on any operating system. Thus you will find most of them on the first OS you test on, and it will account for most of the effort used in your testing. And furthermore, much of testing is usually automated, so aside from setting everything up, you only have to work on it once. You don't have to rewrite all your JUnits for each operating system.

      And no, I don't really care what the wikipedia has to say on the matter. I have real experience in the subject.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    6. Re:times as much testing? by anzev · · Score: 1

      It doesn't really seem like you have experience in this. Becuase if you did, you would know that there are a lot of things you cannot test simply with JUnit. for example, does the GUI block if an operation is in progress? Does it show a progress bar? Does it allow you to cancel tasks? Are the menus inaccessible? Stuff that matters to the user, but is not a part of a function (which you test using JUnit).

    7. Re:times as much testing? by nwbvt · · Score: 1

      "Becuase if you did, you would know that there are a lot of things you cannot test simply with JUnit"

      Please tell me where I said you could automate everything. In fact I said no such thing. I specifically said you could automate a lot of it, thus a lot of the work does not have to be repeated for each platform. Thus adding another platform does not double your work.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
  8. Red Flag...LSB compliant by Danathar · · Score: 1

    Can anybody tell if Red Flag is Linux Standard base compliant. If it is it would be interesting to see if helps LSB move along.

    Would'nt it be strange if a communist party inspired Linux distro ended up influencing Linux developement?

    1. Re:Red Flag...LSB compliant by ronanbear · · Score: 3, Informative

      A list of Linux Standard Base compliant distros is available on their site http://www.freestandards.org/en/Products Asianux 2.0 (which Red Flag is based on) is listed as compliant so it would be reasonable to assume compliance. I've never used Red Flag so YMMV.

      --
      the more they over-think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the pipe
    2. Re:Red Flag...LSB compliant by teh_chrizzle · · Score: 1

      [humor type="sarcastic"]

      i thought all you open source guys were members of the communist party.

      [/humor]

      --
      sarcasm:
      -noun
      1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
  9. I havn't seen any Linux in China by RobertinXinyang · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I am in China and I havn't seen any Linux at all. All I have seen is Windows, and most of it is XP.

    In the markets I have seen the entire office suite going for 10 Yuan (1 US dollar = 8 Yuan). This was not one of the little markets that we hear of being raided, this was at one of the largest chains in the country.

    As far as Apples, I have the only one that I have seen here. In a stor with, literaly, hundreds of MP3 players, I saw one iPod. It was priced out of line with the local economy.

    With this being the situation, I find it hard to believe that Microsoft will fail to dominate this market. There may be a small market for Red Flag, much like there is stil a market for SCO Unix; However, look in the stores, it is al Microsoft.

    1. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      Wasn't the Chinese government supporting the development of Red Flag so that they would have an alternative to (American) Microsoft?

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    2. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by LaughingCoder · · Score: 1

      In the markets I have seen the entire office suite going for 10 Yuan (1 US dollar = 8 Yuan). ... With this being the situation, I find it hard to believe that Microsoft will fail to dominate this market.

      But at $0 per copy I don't think that is what Microsoft (nor IBM) has in mind.

      Seriously, until China has *and* enforces IP property rights and copyrights, all software is effectively "Free". So, why wouldn't China use Windows, along with all those free applications like Photoshop, Office, etc ...

      --
      The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
    3. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by chawly · · Score: 2, Funny

      In communist China it is the footballs which are red - and all your footballs belong to us anyhow ! Flags also - every damned one of them

      --
      How many beans make five, anyhow ? ... Charles Walmsley
    4. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by pepeperes · · Score: 1

      I don't think microsoft are too worried about not getting income from China, as long as they don't use and establish a free OS. I'd say they'd rather give 'em free copies of their software for years, than have them use linux. And my guess is that chinese salaries and income are not going to buy many microsoft's licenses...

      --
      ... from the forgotten corner in europe
    5. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by ronanbear · · Score: 1
      China mightn't want to become dependent on Windows right at the time that China is cracking down on IP infringement and Microsoft is expanding WGA to make it more of a nuisance.

      Photoshop might be effectively free right now but that won't last forever. China has an opportunity to free itself from the Microsoft tax in the future by paying to support Linux now. It looks like really good value too if you consider that sponsoring local Linux will be a boost for Chinese levels of Linux support expertise. There's a lot of money to be made undercutting the opposition both through more efficient Chinese firms (when you have a lower costbase large fixed costs like licensing can really erode the advantage from other areas) and exporting Linux support.

      --
      the more they over-think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the pipe
    6. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by LaughingCoder · · Score: 1

      And my guess is that chinese salaries and income are not going to buy many microsoft's licenses...

      Come on! If they can afford the hardware they can afford the measley "Microsoft tax" - it's a small percentage of the cost of a machine. That said, I too thinkthat Microsoft is probably taking the long view with China (they are quite good at taking the long view, which is one of the keys to their success). They most likely will turn a deaf ear to the blatant copying in China with the hope that they can be (remain as) the entrenched standard if/when China gets around to enforcing copyrights. At that point they can begin to generate revenue.

      --
      The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
    7. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by pepeperes · · Score: 1

      Well we mostly agree, but, even talking off my head, I dont think hardware has the same price in China than here... And anyway, when it's relatively costly for you to pay for something, that you can easily get away not paying for, most people just won't do it. Here in Spain, buying software licenses is still something new for most users, except medium-big companies, and ppl who buy branded machines. Piracy levels are really high here. But microsoft is almost omnipresent, and since the last four or five years they've started working with the BSA to get the money from those millions of users that they've had for quite a long time. Only this year have we seen the first suing of small computer shops. In China this piracy hunt will take longer, and I'd say time is on free software side...

      --
      ... from the forgotten corner in europe
    8. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by nizo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Luckily the government installed backdoors are all contained in a simple and well documented kernel module.

      --
      I Am My Own Worst Enemy
    9. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I am in China..."

      How are you getting throught the Great Firewall to /. ? I'd suspect /. would be on their red-list, no?

    10. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      No. I went to China in December 2005 and Slashdot is *not* blocked.

    11. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am a Chinese. I am visiting /. within China right. Obviously /. is not troublesome enough to CCP. :->

    12. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by DrXym · · Score: 1

      As you said Microsoft stuff is pirated and would be too expensive to buy if it wasn't. So while MS have a monopoly on the pirate scene which has some worth, it isn't exactly and ideal situation. And if China stamps down on the pirates (at the insistence of the US government and Microsoft) it is in effect creating a vacuum that Linux can fill. Just from a idealogical stance, I'm sure the concept of community and open source software combined with paranoia of backdoors or malware in Windows makes Linux very appealing.

    13. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by cyfer2000 · · Score: 1
      Did you bother to look into servers? following are some popular websites I can remember in China
      --
      There is a spark in every single flame bait point.
    14. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by ElleyKitten · · Score: 1
      Come on! If they can afford the hardware they can afford the measley "Microsoft tax" - it's a small percentage of the cost of a machine.
      China is where they make all those cheap generic (and not so generic) computer parts. I imagine the Chinese get their computers without going to Dell.com.
      --
      "What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
    15. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't you be posting as an AC?

      Sorry, just kidding.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    16. Re:I havn't seen any Linux in China by LaughingCoder · · Score: 1

      From everything I've read, the margins in computer parts are razor thin. That means that what we pay for "cheap, generic" hardware is very similar to what they pay in China where they're manufactured. I routinely buy boxes w/PS made in China for about $29. Cheap MB's are $50. China doesn't make their own CPUs so they would have to pay $80 or better for those. DIMMs will run $50. HDs will run $50. Optical drives $20. Mouse/Kbd $20. So we have about $300 worth of cheap hardware. Even if their cost was only $200 (and I highly doubt it's that low), the OEM XP license for volume manufacturers is about $40, which is ~20% of the hardware cost. So, this means the Windows license cost is a small percentage of the overall hardware cost, even in China.

      --
      The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
  10. Serious Question -- Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    All I learn from this is that IBM has an awful China strategy, and probably knows less about linux than it wants people to think.

    Can anyone point to any contribution Red Flag has made to open source software? The company has released something like 2 distributions over the last four years or so while being heavily funded by the Chinese government. Neither distribution was usable (I've tried both). Their desktop version of Linux even removed a lot of usable software in order to cram in crippled language demoware.

    Most of the Chinese people I know who use Linux use Red Hat and wouldn't touch Red Flag with a ten foot pole. And if IBM thinks that it will start making major enterprise sales in China by partnering with these guys they are simply delusional. This is just another step in Red Flag's strategy of doing nothing, but doing it extremely loudly to the cheers of overseas linux fanboys.

    1. Re:Serious Question -- Why? by Americano · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I think you just answered your own question about why:
      The company has released something like 2 distributions over the last four years or so while being heavily funded by the Chinese government.

      It's funded by the Chinese Government == lucrative government contracts == profit.

      IBM is in the business of making a profit. If doing so results in a net contribution to open source software, then good for IBM & good for OSS. If doing so doesn't result in a net contribution to open source software, you'd be wrong to think that IBM gives a toss, so long as they're still making money.
  11. its by smcdow · · Score: 1

    no apostrophe.

    --
    In the course of every project, it will become necessary to shoot the scientists and begin production.
  12. Complain, etc, counting people etc by MajorDick · · Score: 0, Troll

    Complain all you want but , IBM isnt blind there is a HUGE market and future market to be had here, things are the way they are in china and until thir people stand up and change the they will remain the same.
     
    That is probably never going to happen China is on the upswing, and more food and nicer clothes rarley breeds revolution.
     
    I mean IBM is a Technology arms dealer, it always has been , look at WWII and the machines they constructed for the NAZI's as part of the Final Solution. DOnt think for one RED second IBM has any concious in this matter, it is for financial gains PERIOD

    1. Re:Complain, etc, counting people etc by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      Apart from the annoying CAPITALISATION why is this modded as a troll?

      I know IBM are currently on the /. good guys list, but that doesn't mean they have always been on the side of the angels.

      BTW, you are allowed to mention Nazis on the internet if it is relevant to the point in question, Godwin's law applies to off-topic flames.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  13. Chinese food. (NT) by The+Darkness · · Score: 1

    No Text

    --
    There are two kinds of people: 1) those that need closure
  14. More Red Flag info (and why IBM supports it) by savio13 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Red Flag Linux is actualy a distribution of Asianux2.0. Red Flag (Chinese), Miracle Linux (Japanese) & Haansoft (Korean) are all built on Asianux2.0 and targeted for the specific countries listed above. AFAIK, Asianux2.0 is a RHEL clone, so that helps with testing (vs. having to test a completely new distro).

    I can't speak for "IBM", but back when I was product manger for WAS Community Edition (WASCE), I know that we decided to support Red Flag Data Center (RFDC) with WASCE right from v1.0 because our Asian customers were asking for RFDC (in addition to RHEL).

    Savio

  15. Re:Excerpts from the Red Linux FAQ by CockMonster · · Score: 2, Funny

    Oh spot the geographically illiterate yank!

  16. Testing exponential by frisket · · Score: 1

    If it's the third one supported, that's nine times the effort :-)

  17. The Bigger question by shareme · · Score: 1

    The bigger questionis will IBM also move towards supporting JFox: http://www.huihoo.org/jfox From the China Enterprise OpenSource Community in some manner or will there be a merger of this with ASF Geronimo Server..

    --
    Fred Grott(aka shareme) http://mobilebytes.wordpress.com
  18. Platform support and testing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The MAJORITY of IBM's Software revenue comes from overseas. The fastest growing region is Asia Pacific. It only makes sense that they would cater to their best customers.

    A particular IBM software product supports multiple versions of HP-UX, Solaris, AIX, RHEL, SUSE, and Windows. Adding another configuration isn't going to create much more of a burden than is already there. Besides the full test suite isn't usually run on each platform setup for every incremental release.

  19. Acer Desktops by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

    In the Netherlands (and probably elsewhere in the EU), you can buy Acer desktop PC's with Red Flag Linux pre-installed for under 300 euros. Alternatively, you can get Linpus Linux pre-installed, which is a Taiwanese distro. In either case, you will get the UK version (not the Chinese version) of the distros.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  20. LSB (Was: This is a good thing.) by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

    One thing I am afraid will happen if LSB ever really gets targetted by vendors is that they will say "Well, it's LSB compliant. We did our job. If you can't run it, it's not our fault.", after having produced binaries for one or two architectures, and probably one version of the libraries. I think the beauty of a system based on source code (which the free unices are, albeit some more than others) is that things like machine architecture and specific library versions are very much abstracted from. I'd rather not lose that.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    1. Re:LSB (Was: This is a good thing.) by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Isn't the point about LSB that it allows binary packages?

      If people want to release source code, they'll do it anyway, and people will port it. But binary applications, which are allowed by the GPL, are impossible unless you have things like LSB. You'd need a lot more of course, like being having a stable ABI with enough libraries to build GUI applications.

      If some vendor has an application which they won't (or can't since they don't have rights to redistribute libraries as source code) release as source code, if there is no stable ABI they won't release it on Linux, it's as simple as that.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  21. IBM ? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

    You surely mean Lenovo ?

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    1. Re:IBM ? by leoPetr · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, the article means IBM, which develops the DB2, Informix, Rational, WebSphere, and Lotus ranges of software products. Lenovo is the new manufacturer of Thinkpads. They are not the new IBM.

      --
      My other body is also not wearing any.
    2. Re:IBM ? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      True. Mod him up, mod me down...

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  22. Linux good for China people by shiyun074238 · · Score: 1

    The reason why Linux is embedded in China because China is a huge market especially on technology produuct.
    Another reason is Linux is an open source where it gain support from many experts to review code and fix bugs.
    The price is cheaper and flexible compared to Microsoft. Most of people in China are affordable with it.
    The most important is China goverment encourages it people to use linux and even provide financial support to Redflag Linux Software.

  23. Conspiracy theory by ultranova · · Score: 1

    Clearly, this is just a capitalist plot to make China dependant from IBM !

    --

    Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  24. Over/Undersimplification by suggsjc · · Score: 1

    Am I way off base here, but don't your two examples have nothing to do with OS, and everything to do with the language that you are writing in? Different languages are going to handle null comparisons differently regardless of platform.

    Sorry if I am missing something...

    --
    When I have a kid, I want to put him in one of those strollers for twins and then run around the mall looking frantic.
    1. Re:Over/Undersimplification by anzev · · Score: 1

      They have to do with how the run time enviornemnt written for these specific OSes is handled. Java on Windows and Linux behaves differently. Some people consider the Windows behavior wrong while some people consider the Linux behavior wrong. The point is that there are minor differences due to OS specifics that you need to handle, there can also be differences due to version specifics. that's why testing, even on multiple distributions / versions of the same platform. That was my point.

  25. Never Make It - Censored Code by queenb**ch · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    The Chinese goverment will be too busy censoring the code for the project to ever get off the ground.

    2 cents,

    QueenB

    --
    HDGary secures my bank :/
  26. Prices out of line with local economy by amightywind · · Score: 1
    As far as Apples, I have the only one that I have seen here. In a stor with, literaly, hundreds of MP3 players, I saw one iPod. It was priced out of line with the local economy.

    If the yuan value was set on the open world market instead of by the party hacks in Beijing, that iPod would be a lot cheaper and the Chinese consumer would be a lot richer.

    --
    an ill wind that blows no good
  27. I don't agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think this is such a good idea. I see red flags everywhere.

  28. Having actually used RFL ... by gentimjs · · Score: 1

    Having actually used red flag linux, supporting it will not be much different than supporting redhat. Most of the internals are simple text replaces with "red hat" to "red flag" with most of the added-value being the comprehensive chinese localisation and translation stuff. For those like me who dont need the extra support for chinese, its just another redhat clone.

  29. written chinese character recognition by kie · · Score: 1

    Despite all the talk about supporting chinese distributions,
    there is still no* written chinese character recognition for desktop linux that i can find,
    specifically so that a pen and tablet or mouse can be used to write characters
    (this would be an additional input method since emacs already supports
      several keyboard chinese input methods but many people don't know 'Canjie Input')

    This should not be an insurmountable tasks since there are many windows programs
    that do this that are sold for very low cost with small cheap graphics tablets
    designed for this task in Hong Kong.

    This defecit is bound to hurt desktop adoption among Chinese speakers,
    it also makes using Ubuntu and other linux flavours as an alternative to windows
    a more difficult proposition.

    *
    There does exist a project with some GPL code, but it requires Sun's Java libraries
    and is not fast enough in response time for real usage and suffers some other problems.
    http://www.kiang.org/jordan/software/hanzilookup

    Some more info is here:
    http://www.hungmaow.org/index.php?2005/08/28/78-ch inese-handwriting-under-linux

    --
    living the dream
    1. Re:written chinese character recognition by 808140 · · Score: 1

      You're nuts, man. It may be that in Taiwan and Hong Kong where there is no standard romanization (really) for Chinese characters tablet-based input methods are popular, but on the Mainland -- which is the real market here -- there is pinyin. Pinyin is taught in schools, everyone knows it, and most Chinese people use pinyin-based input methods (although some, like me, prefer wubi). Support for these and many other non-graphical input methods in Linux is very good -- in fact, I prefer SCIM's smart pinyin input method to the vast majority of the ones I use on Windows.

      Handwriting recognition software is complex and doesn't work particularly well, anyway, even with state of the art non-free solutions. Anyone who has more than a third grade Chinese education knows that in handwriting many variations on stroke order exist, despite their not being "correct". Nokia and others have been marketing cell phones with handwriting recognition on the mainland in recent years and while they are popular as a gimmick, no one I know that owns one actually uses the handwriting recognition, for two reasons: one, it often doesn't recognize their handwriting unless they write stroke by stroke like a first grader, and two, lots of people forget how to write characters, even common ones.

      As a Mandarin-speaker who uses Linux exclusively, I can say that the only real bar to a totally free Chinese operating system that would satisfy 99% of mainland corporate users is the lack of Free high quality, hinted Chinese truetype fonts. Everyone I know (including myself) uses MS's SimHei and SimSun, or in the case of Taiwanese and HK folks, MingLiU. There's just nothing free out there that comes close.

    2. Re:written chinese character recognition by kie · · Score: 1

      Well you may think I'm nuts, but it seems that my experience contradicts several of your points.

      I live in Hong Kong and see lots of people using tablets for entering Chinese
      (as well as lots of people using keyboards for entering Chinese).

      Also although there may be variations in stroke entry, the better recognition systems cope very well.
      For example I use the Motorola A732 phone, which has excellent handwriting recognition even for
      those who have very cursive writing, (several of my friends have very cursive writing have used it without problems).

      In addition, the people that I see in shops using the keyboard input everyday do not write stroke by stroke
      like a first grade student (and neither do I).

      Your statement that everyone is able to use keyboard entry for Chinese is innaccurate for the current
      Hong Kong population. I have no figures but from the sample of people that I know I would think that
      it is probably more that can't than can.

      I can't comment on the Nokia phones that you refer to since i have not tried them,
      but if you're suggesting that the performance is poor i have no reason to disbelieve you.

      > As a Mandarin-speaker who uses Linux exclusively, I can say that the only real bar to a totally free
      > Chinese operating system that would satisfy 99% of mainland corporate users is the lack of Free high
      > quality, hinted Chinese truetype fonts

      Yes, but I am a Cantonese speaker, talking about Desktop adoption for the home and business user in
      Hong Kong and not restricted to corporate use in the mainland only.
      Just because the need doesn't fit in to your segment, does not justify denying it exists or propogating
      other lies to suit your side of the argument.

      btw for your future reference insulting someone is often not the best way to try to convince them of your
      point of view :)

      --
      living the dream
    3. Re:written chinese character recognition by 808140 · · Score: 1

      Yes, well, maybe I did come off a bit harshly, sorry for that. I did say in my post that I was discounting HK and Taiwan because of their unwillingness/inability to standardise on a particular romanization method, however. And I believe -- though I may be wrong -- that Red Flag Linux, the distribution in question, is very much a mainland oriented operation.

      I'm glad to hear that tablet handwriting recognition has advanced, though, that's good news. Obviously if such an input method is ubiquitous in HK then having a Free implementation is important. Of course from an efficiency perspective, writing out characters by hand -- especially traditional characters -- is a good deal slower than using a text-based input method, but... well, people will use what they will use, won't they, who am I to say differently.

      It occurs to me that good handwriting recognition solutions for Chinese probably don't exist for the same reasons that good free fonts don't exist: too many glyphs. While we may spend most of our time using only 4000 characters, I find that when I use fonts with less than about 8000 characters I notice, and I'm not even particularly literary. This means that someone interested in providing a free solution would have to create a database of nearly 10,000 characters with their stroke orders and common varations to be even moderately useful.

      Implementing the actual recognition algorithm -- despite the complexity involved in getting it to properly recognise grass script and the like -- is probably far simpler than that task. In the same way that no one has the patience to individually construct and hint 10 thousand glyph outlines to make a good truetype font, no one has the patience to produce such a database. Unless you're aware of one that's already available?

      This would probably workout better if there were more Linux adoption outside of the server room in Asia, but on the mainland at least, people are married to their Windows machines. Are things better in HK?

    4. Re:written chinese character recognition by kie · · Score: 1

      I agree that writing characters by hand is less efficient than using the keyboard,
      however it does mean that people can do it straight away without additional training.
      I think that some of the input methods, such as the 9 key one which is supposed
      to be pretty efficient may be patented as well, which doesn't help matters.

      Character databases exist already, from the hanzilookup page
      http://www.kiang.org/jordan/software/hanzilookup/
      Don't know if this includes the 1000 odd HK official additional characters.

      > The source includes two stroke definition data files. strokes.txt has the original
      > hand-input definitions for about 4,000+ characters.
      > The second, strokes-extended.txt has the original plus almost 10,000 more that
      > Erik Peterson of www.mandarintools.com generated programatically.
      > Older machines might want to stick to the smaller file as it limits the computation
      > required to find a match and takes less memory.

      and it is licensed under GPL!

      I think that a really good recognition algorithm is probably pretty hard, but I'm no expert.
      It certainly can be done as shown in the proprietary world.

      As to linux adoption in Hong Kong, on the one hand things are pretty bleak in that most people
      are using windows. However, I have managed to convert some people either to Ubuntu or to using
      things like Firefox and OpenOffice.
      I think that the problem is not really reluctance to try something else, but being unaware of
      alternatives. There seems to be little grass roots movement or publicity about the alternatives,
      I am guessing HK probably has one of the lowest Firefox adoption rates in the world.
      That's why I think a polished free handwriting character recognition under linux would help matters.

      --
      living the dream
  30. IBM looking to corner the Linux market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IBM supporting RedFlag Linux is a shot across the bough at Red Hat and the like. IBM is looking to kill off the mainstream Linux distros with this move. If RedFlag becomes dominant, Red Hat goes bye-bye.

    (As a side note, wasn't there some talk about RedFlag being in violation of GPL (software licenses are generally ignored in China)?)

  31. Red Flag should be effortless for IBM to support by HiThere · · Score: 1

    IBM already supports Red Hat, and Red Flag is a recent clone from Red Hat, so it should be nearly effortless to support. Mind you, I'm not saying that the customers will be effortless to support...but they earn money doing that. Merely that adding Red Flag as a supported distro should be nearly effortless.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  32. Wrong market for IBM? by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

    So IBM is going to support their expensive proprietary software on Red Flag linux. Given the economic conditions of China and their lack of a "Nobody ever got fired for buying an IBM product" culture, I wonder how successful they will be and how much impact their support will have on the adoption of Linux in China.

  33. Re:Your sig.... by Hal_Porter · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Don't be a vagina, name calling should not denigrate the male gender.

    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  34. Re:This is a good thing: This *is* a good thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's good that LSB is what it is, and it's good if apps are made which conform to that.

    If you want to link against multiple library version etc etc reliably, then distribute source. Make sure your app compiles cleanly on LSB and provide everything needed, and make sure './configure; make; make install' is enough to reliably install it, and many many many good things will come of it.

    Users who can't read a readme and follow a three-step install procedure should not have an admin account on a PC.

    Furthermore, and on a separate topic, the tradition in unix is that users do not *need* admin on their PC to compile and install software in their own homedir.

    These traditional installation mechanisms have come to be common -- what you call lowest common denominator (but your derision should in fact be reserved for a much lower, more common system ;o) -- because they WORK. Unix has from its first inception been ported from system to system, and used by multiple users. These two simple base assumptions -- that users compile code so code should be easy to compile, and that users install software so software should be installable by users without interfering with the system and with other users, using just the same simple commands that the system administrator would use to install it for the system. In fact, why not? both system and users copies should be able to be installed AT ONCE. And the users still select which. And there should be a sensible default in this case, determined by the app vendor, because OK, this does introduce a little complexity.

    So, in answer to your query, the only thing app developers need to do is (a) follow LSB, (b) use a configure/make system, and most importantly, (c) WRITE A BRIEF SUCCINCT INSTALLATION HOWTO and not introduce a bunch of distractions to naiive users who simply want to install the app in a default configuration.

  35. Hmm by Alb_Be · · Score: 1

    Now how do I explain this one to people who claim linux=communism>

  36. IBM is a chinese company now??? Is it not??? by kalmite · · Score: 1

    I thought IBM was now owned by a Chinese company. If that is true, why is it such a surprise to see that they are supporting a Chinese Linux distro????

  37. Re:Excerpts from the Red Linux FAQ by tehcyder · · Score: 1
    Oh spot the geographically illiterate yank!
    To be fair, he got the right continent.
    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it