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A View From Under the Long Tail

An anonymous reader writes "Here's a funny article by James Boyle in the Financial Times on what it really feels like to be part of the long tail economy." From the article: "Where Amazon's normal customer service seems to be run by suspiciously cheerful MBAs from Stanford, who break off from counting their stock options to write apologies and deliver refunds, 'Amazon Advantage', the ironically named system for selling wares, is clearly based on the last days of the Soviet system. The problem with their representatives is not that their native language is not English, it is that their native planet is not Earth."

31 of 123 comments (clear)

  1. More about Amazon..... by BWJones · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is not really an indictment against Chris Anderson or his most excellent work on the Long Tail concept so much as it is a demonstration of Amazon's lack of infrastructure (or management) in their Amazon Advantage program.

    I've heard from more than one person of their frustrations in dealing with this program which has lead me to delay efforts to publish a couple of items through them...

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    1. Re:More about Amazon..... by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Interesting
      it is a demonstration of Amazon's lack of infrastructure (or management) in their Amazon Advantage program.

      I have no idea why people insist on using confusing examples for the Long Tail concept. THIS is the Long Tail. Brand new games created for a system that's 30 years old, with a very specialized fan base. In a traditional market, you would NEVER be able to make money off of this. But in an Internet-enabled environment, you can theoretically reach every member of this esoteric market in every region in the world, with a very small advertising budget.

      The only reason why Amazon keeps coming up is that they collectively sell lots of esoteria, thus managing to hit a farther end in the population dropoff (i.e. the longest part of the tail) than a business like AtariAge could reasonably profit from.
    2. Re:More about Amazon..... by Deb-fanboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "find an alternative, and you will see Amazon fix itself." too true. I have had very poor service from Amazon when I have used it as a (customer in the UK.) First I bought a usb thumb drive which arrived late because the vendor claimed "Amazon never passed on the order". Then I ordered a book on Python for my little geeklings (my children) who were showing interest in learning some programming. Strike while the iron is hot I thought. However this thought was not shared by Amazon. After a month I received an email saying that the book would be delayed a further 6 to 8 weeks. So I cancelled and instead went to http://computermanuals.co.uk/ who managed to get me the book delivered to the Scottish highlands next day! Guess who I am using for my tech books now. found my alternative.

    3. Re:More about Amazon..... by David+Off · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > The only reason why Amazon keeps coming up is that they collectively sell lots of esoteria, thus managing to hit a farther end in the population dropoff (i.e. the longest part of the tail) than a business like AtariAge could reasonably profit from.

      That is not the example Chris uses though. He sites the author who had been in the doldrums for years then, via Amazon's "readers who bought this book also bought X" is rediscovered. The agregation of lots of small sales is important but also the data mining possibilities it gives between the short and long tail. It may be that lots of stuff on the long tail is there for a reason, it is crap, but there are a few gems hidden away that computers can discover by analyzing customer choice.

  2. Life sucks, until there's real competition... by HMC+CS+Major · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When the Amazon system inserted random hieroglyphics into the description of our comic book it took many e-mails to reach a human - or at least sapient - being. When we did we were told reassuringly that Amazon's system for updating web pages was broken and that there was no prospect of fixing it. For this, we give them 55 cents out of every dollar and an annual fee


    Fund/find an alternative, and you will see Amazon fix itself. Until that happens, bend over and grab your ankles.
    1. Re:Life sucks, until there's real competition... by askegg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are alternatives - publish it yourself and cut out the middle men completely. 37 Signals did it with "Getting Real" with great success.

      --
      I don't make predictions, and I never will.
    2. Re:Life sucks, until there's real competition... by 1u3hr · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There are alternatives - publish it yourself and cut out the middle men completely.

      I've worked in publishing for 15 years. Producing the books has never been easier. Delivering the books to customers is now the hardest part. If you publish yourself, if you sell any at all (which is a whole other story) you end up with cartons of books in your garage and spend your days packing and posting and processing credit cards and cheques. Companies like Amazon earn their 55% by dealing with that. But Amazon, while admittedly the 800 lb gorilla of the online book market, is far from the only choice despite what TFA says.

  3. Wow by OverlordQ · · Score: 5, Funny

    The article, which was written by a guy, whose name is James, who shares the first name of a President, who helped create the constituion, which was written a long time ago, which is quite as old as when Communism was envisioned, which we can blame the Greeks for, which make great olive oil, which comes in extra virgin, which covers the majority of the slashdot crowd. . . .

    Oh wait, what was I talking about again?

    --
    Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
  4. it makes sense, sort of by macadamia_harold · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Where Amazon's normal customer service seems to be run by suspiciously cheerful MBAs from Stanford, who break off from counting their stock options to write apologies and deliver refunds, 'Amazon Advantage', the ironically named system for selling wares, is clearly based on the last days of the Soviet system.

    well, with any service, there are going to be different tiers depending on what sort of customer you are. Obviously, direct Amazon customers get the top-level customer service. However, it doesn't make economic sense for Amazon to provide that same-level service for customers of a low-volume third-party-vendor selling their goods on an Amazon storefront.

    I'm not saying it's "right", I'm just saying it makes sense.

  5. The network effect makes competition impossible by njdj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Fund/find an alternative, and you will see Amazon fix itself.

    A major point of the article is that this is not possible because of the network effect - people who want to buy a book online go to Amazon, because Amazon has all the books and "just works".

    As the article puts it:

    As an academic, I am very interested in network effects - the curious economic features of networks, which increase in value as they increase in size. Does this mean that customers will be "locked in" to the system that achieves ubiquity? (...) Does this threaten the efficiency that the networked economy was supposed to provide? As a vendor, I fume and rant, but am unable to convince myself that we can shift distributors: will the people who want our books trust an unfamiliar name?

    1. Re:The network effect makes competition impossible by daviddennis · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What's really happening is that it adds some trust to the equation.

      Take a random web site that wants to sell a book. You don't know if that book will actually show up, or if they'll just take your money and vanish. You don't know them.

      Enter Amazon. You know that if you buy something from Amazon, you'll get it. You have confidence in them. Of course they sometimes make mistakes. I remember when they sent me the wrong book, but it turs out it was an interesting book so I read it anyway. But you know they won't just take your money and run with it, and they'll take the book back if you don't like it.

      The big advantage Amazon has is aggregating shipping costs. Say I find a small vendor who's selling me a book for $15. They tack on $ 5 shipping and make it $20. I can find that book at amazon for $12.50 and buy it together with three other books for $8 in shipping. So my shipping overhead per book is $2 instead of $5, and I got the book for a little less, too. That's a huge win for me and makes it far more likely that I will buy your book.

      This phenomenon is why the person in the article is still dealing with Amazon. Buying a $15 book for $20 is prohibitively high overhead, at least for me. Buying a $15 book for $14.50 ($12.50 + $2 shipping) sounds a lot better. And I know I'll get it, usually pretty quickly.

      The truth is, it's better than ever to be a small producer of books or seller of merchandise thanks to Amazon and eBay's trust mechanisms, which are effective in spreading a bit of the trust the big guys have to the little guy. That's a huge advantage to bring the little guy.

      Would you want to turn back the clock to the days before Amazon? Odds are that your small publishing company wouldn't even be noticed. Amazon and eBay help link you with your customers, and that's a huge advantage over the way things were before.

      After all, nothing's stopping you from opening your own online bookstore. You just won't sell as much, or make as much money. And it's a huge distraction from the core business of writing and publishing books, which surely is hard enough without adding the complexities of sales to the equation.

      D

  6. Disintermediation? BAH! by Crash+McBang · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Looks great at first, then you realize they've changed one middleman for a different, 'internet based' one. The only folks who come out ahead on this deal are UPS, FEDEX, and USPS.

    --
    To put a witty saying into 120 characters, jst rmv ll th vwls.
  7. Makes more sense for virtual than physical by patio11 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I sell software online. Selling software at Best Buy gets you, perhaps, 40% of every sale, and they won't even think of doing it at the number of units I sell. Unless its to guffaw. Shelf space is limited and projects have to be made on the scales of minor nation states.

    On the Internet, startup costs are negligible (I had capital investment of $60), and if you've got an aggregator which has a nation-state scale worth of eyeballs (*cough* Google *cough*) then you can pay them a weeee bit of money to send a sliver of those eyeballs over to you. Transactional costs amount to almost nothing: Paypal takes 4% of every sale. If you count the cost of AdWords, that comes out to 20%, but thats still a third of the traditional retail channel and AdWords scales *down* where retail only scales *up*. You might not think there is that much of a market for a one-screen application that makes reading bingo cards for teachers (www.bingocardcreator.com), but way-down-the-tail made $600 gross, $450 net. Not too terrible for an app which took a man-week to write and, literally, 20 minutes of work in September ("Lost your registration key? No problem, have a new one." "No, thank YOU, Ethel." multiplied by handful of emails).

    The other beneficiaries besides me? Google (Adwords), Paypal, and Uncle Sam. They'll get $90, $30, and $lots respectively as a result of September, all for doing zero marginal work: they just let the computer systems/country they established continue to operate, and they get more money.

    1. Re:Makes more sense for virtual than physical by PCM2 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      $600 gross, $450 net. Not too terrible for an app which took a man-week to write

      Uh... yeah. Not too terrible. You made $15 an hour.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    2. Re:Makes more sense for virtual than physical by Secrity · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That $450 net was for one month's sales (and the month is not over yet). I would suspect that because this product is aimed at school teachers that September sales would be a major sales spike. The man-week development cost should be divided by the number of unit sales, which I would hope will be over a period of many months; his actual work during September (and presumably for most months) was or will be a fraction of an hour.

      I believe that the point is that the ability to sell this rather specialized program over the internet makes it feasible to market the program. The alternative would be to put classified ads in school teacher oriented magazines and have teachers mail him a check for $25. Ad Sense expands his market as it includes people other than school teachers who may be looking for a product like this.

    3. Re:Makes more sense for virtual than physical by lawpoop · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The other beneficiaries besides me? Google (Adwords), Paypal, and Uncle Sam. They'll get $90, $30, and $lots respectively as a result of September, all for doing zero marginal work: they just let the computer systems/country they established continue to operate, and they get more money."

      Just *let them* continue to operate? Yeah, maintenance just happens on its own. When things wear out, they just get up and repair themselves.

      Have you ever visited a "3rd world" country? Personally, I'm happy to pay my taxes. I think I getting a good deal, comparatively.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    4. Re:Makes more sense for virtual than physical by gfxguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, but I bet he has another job, too, and the fulltime job pays for health insurance, retirement plans, etc.

      Those extra (non-primary) jobs people take for extra income don't need to pay a lot to be worthwhile.

      Plus, as another reader pointed out, he probably had fun doing it, he was motiviated for some reason (wanted it for himself or a friend), so it's just extra money in his pocket. Nothing wrong with that, and it's a fine example of how a niche market can be worthwhile.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    5. Re:Makes more sense for virtual than physical by LunaticTippy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think you know what marginal work means.

      Google has to pay its bills and replace broken servers anyway. Uncle Sam has to maintain our first world glory anyway. Selling $600 worth of software over the uberweb didn't mean google had to install a new server farm, nor did a new canal have to be dug.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
  8. Amazon - Please Read This by Ed+Almos · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Dear Amazon

    Because of your piss-poor service I have not bought anything from you for two years. I use your website to find books and then go to my local English bookstore to place the order. DVDs are obtained in a similar way by browsing your site and then walking round the corner to my local video rental shop. I am sure that I am not the only person who does this.

    Ed Almos
    Budapest, Hungary

    --
    The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacitus, 56-120 A.D.
  9. Economics ... setting the record straight by argoff · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is a side issue, but I hear a lot of economics BS out there and every time I hear it I get pissed off.

    First off, an efficient high tech economy means that the "business cycle" is going to be more drastic and harsh not magically soft land and smooth out like every body preaches now days. "soft landing?", It is absolutely insane for people to say that.

    Second off, during the late 1800s the US economy experienced a period where efficient factory production drove down costs for every year for nearly half a century. This also had the effect of driving down pay and driving down profit margins, but it drove down costs faster than both - so people still did well. Now fast forward to 2006, and the US is going into the information age full blast, and hard drive farms that would cost over a million dollars yesterday, now cost a few hundred and can be held in your hand. In addition, overseas labor is driving down costs even more. But today there is one huge 'bigger than life' problem ... we have TOO MUCH FREAKING DEBT ... and our payment obligations are not going to go down even when pay and profit margins do. Translation: the US is in deep shit. (they will probably have to hyperinflate to stop a systemic collapse)

    Third off, having these huge amounts of debt and all these stock market bubbles and all these housing bubbles (today) is not a normal part of a free market economy. They happen specifically because investment is financed thru the banks, which is financed thru the Federal reserve, which is financed by nothing. I mean, when they need money to loan out - they print it up and loan it out. That means that over time, more and more money goes into circulation driving up prices, driving up debt, and driving out private savings. Hey lookie! The US has record high debt, record high housing prices, and record low savings. Hmmmmm.

    Fourth off, if we used money like gold that couldn't be printed up out of thin air. That would naturally limit the amount of debt in the economy and force finances to come from savings instead of print-ups. That would kill bubbles, but more importantly put investment power back into the hands of private savers instead of central bankers and government.

    In sum, the US economy is about to make a radical shift as the housing bubble violently pops and when it does the US will be in deep shit. This will happen because everything you have been taught about central banking and paper money is BS. Loaning out "modern" paper money (instead of real money like gold) leads to irrational allocation of resources that causes inflation, bubbles, too much debt, and puts investment power into the hands of inefficient central planners (bankers) instead of private individuals. Seriously, name one institution who ever thought they had too much money. At this point it is beond repair, so people would be very wise to collect guns, food storage, and gold like no tomorrow because all freaking satanic hell is about to break loose.

    1. Re:Economics ... setting the record straight by guet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Loaning out "modern" paper money (instead of real money like gold)

      The value of Gold is no more real than that of a promissory note. The important thing is scarcity, and paper money, if managed properly, can be just as scarce as any valuable commodity.

    2. Re:Economics ... setting the record straight by dwandy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      if managed properly, can be just as scarce as any valuable commodity.
      except I agree with argoff (142580) that
      Seriously, name one institution who ever thought they had too much money
      So I think the point is that you can trust the greed factor will cause it to be impossible for it to be "managed properly". Creating a system with a natural limit (essentially a limit outside of our control) causes the system to work correctly.
      This is like saying that a command economy can work if "managed properly"...and we saw how well that worked.
      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    3. Re:Economics ... setting the record straight by spike2131 · · Score: 2, Informative

      But could you name even one fiat currency that isn't inflating and hasn't been inflating?

      The Yen was deflating fairly recently. It has since gone back to very modest inflation, which is a good thing because it means the Japanese economy is finally growing again.

      Currencies can inflate or deflate based on a number of factors, and the ability of the government to print more money is only one of them.

      Inflation isn't just a function of money supply, its a funciton of velocity - how quickly that money changes hands. You could spend gold coins on ten different items, or you could spend one gold coin ten times on each different item.... but the price per item would remain at one gold coin because the change in velocity has negated the change in money supply.

      This is to point out but one reason that the notion that there would be no inflation under a gold-backed money regime is clearly wrong. To pick historical examples of inflation in gold-backed economies, there was significant inflation throughout Eurasia during the 12th to 14th centuries, the 16th-17th and centuries, and the later 18th and early 19th century.

      --
      SpyDock: Scientific Python in a Docker container
  10. Re:The network effect makes competition DIFFICULT by junklight · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is a house in Steatham on the A11 in the UK that does its own ebaying - whenever I drive past they have a range of goods sitting by the side of the road with hand drawn price boards.

    The road transport system = the new ebay. People could club together to sell things and you could call them -- Oh I don't know -- Markets or Shops....

  11. Not so good service by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Amazon's service is quite overrated actually. It usually works fine, and if there is a problem they usually fix it, but there are times when talking to amazon's rep is like talking to a wall.

    An example: For large orders, Amazons usually splits the items in several boxes - at no cost for the customer. This is usually fine, except for the fact that each box lists the contents of the whole order.

    If you are overseas, this means that you will have to pay taxes for the value of the whole order for each box.

    Last time my order was split in 3 boxes. I have to pay 16% VAT, so the net result is that I had to pay 48%.

    Add to this that UPS has a policy of dealing with customs without talking to the customer first - they pay the taxes (VAT, custom fees, etc), and then you pay them upon delivery. So talking to the customs officials is not an option, since by the time you know about this the boxes are already out for the delivery. Refusing to pay taxes is not an option, since UPS will not deliver. You can't tell UPS to return everything to Amazon, since they paid for the taxes and will keep the stuff hostage.

    In the end, I had to pay triple taxes. And still, Amazon refuses to acknoledge that the problem is that they don't write the actual contents of each box in the sleave.

  12. Re:The network effect makes competition DIFFICULT by ZippyKitty · · Score: 2, Funny

    The road transport system = the new ebay. People could club together to sell things and you could call them -- Oh I don't know -- Markets or Shops....

    Yes but this caters to a very niche market - those who leave the house to buy things :) .

    ZK

    --
    Time flies like an arrow Fruit flies like a banana
  13. Just an Advantage thing by dmoynihan · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Common issue for small publishers--you get a purchase order from Amazon for 1 copy of the book, then a week later, 9 copies... then the book goes "out of stock... deliver in 3-4 months," then they order from you again, but if you ship too many copies, Amazon might bill you for stuffing the channel with 12 copies...

    A small press is pretty much guaranteed to lose money on Advantage, 'cuz you have to pay for shipping, etc. yourself to Amazon, then give the standard 55% discount, and there's no way of predicting needed quantities.

    What most indies do (admittedly, not Duke law professors), is say "screw it" to the Advantage program and sell themselves through marketplace.

    In my lifetime I've met one person who was happy with Advantage, but he was a famous man who has since died...

    1. Re:Just an Advantage thing by kira23 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I sell my CGI books through Amazon, and I've been quite happy with the Advantage program. They clearly use an automated system to determine how many books to order. If demand is constant, orders are (usually) constant too. When they place a small order (for 2 books, say), I just send it via media mail to save on shipping. Larger orders go by UPS. It's worked out well for me.

      Of course, after having gone through the hassle of working with "regular" distributors, Amazon's been a dream. They order consistently, they pay a month after the sales are made, and they never return anything! Compare that to Ingram, who would order WAY too many books, return half of them (most of them damaged), and take forever to pay. No thanks, I'll take Amazon any time.

  14. Re:The network effect makes competition DIFFICULT by blighter · · Score: 2, Funny
    nobody's ever given up because something was difficult

    Nonsense. I give up on things because they're difficult all the time!

  15. A two-tiered system is NOT the "long tail" by wsanders · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So, it's a free country - you can sit on your ass and blame it on The Man or start your own distribution system. As others in this thread point out, you can do this yourself. THAT's the point of the "long tail" argument: "Quit Whining and Do It Yourself Online.".

    Amazon seems to have a two-tiered system that brings out the worst in the long tail principle: Flawless, reliable service for fairly common items - I have returned several shipments or gotten them late and I have never had trouble working things out, and because I live on the west coast I usually get stuff in three days or less. Then, a low budget operation outsourced to who knows where for the "long tail" stuff.

    FedEx did the same thing when they acquired RPS and changed it to FedEx Ground. A top-shelf service with premium prices that picks up anywhere and delivers on time anywhere, and a shambling low-priced service for those of us not living in Central Business Districts (that's still cheaper and better than UPS though.)

    --
    Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
  16. Re:The network effect makes competition DIFFICULT by Frizzle+Fry · · Score: 4, Funny

    nobody's ever given up because something was difficult.
    This statement sounded suspicious to me, so I tried to think up a counter-example, but after twenty minutes I quit because it was too hard. I guess you were right!

    --
    I'd rather be lucky than good.