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The Parallel Politics of Copyright and Environment

zumaya100k writes "In recent months, Slashdot has covered the rise of the Pirate Party and the battles in Europe over iPod interoperability. Canada's Hill Times has an insightful column from Michael Geist that links these developments as the growing importance of copyright as a political issue. He argues that copyright is now tracking the environment as a mainstream political issue." (Geist is talking about Canada here, but much the same can be said about the U.S. and other places.)

25 of 128 comments (clear)

  1. This about sums it up for me by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The average Canadian knows little about the intricacies of fair dealing or technological protection measures, yet the implications of copyright policies that hamper free speech, privacy, security, and consumer rights are far easier to appreciate.
    The simpler the cause, the easier it is to make it a mainstream issue.

    Complexity is anathema to politics in most countries.
    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
    1. Re:This about sums it up for me by rf0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I always take my wife as a normal type person who just wants technology to work. She reads email, writes letters and does a little bit of surfing. She doesn't really care about computers and seems to live in her own little bubble. So I posed gave her a quick run down of the UK RIP bill (http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/article/0,651 2,334007,00.html) basically saying that the government can come along and watch everything she does on the net, can be put in jail for refusing to give her password out etc and her response was. " As long as I don't do anything wrong why should I worry? "

      To me it seems people will only notice things are becoming a police state when its a bit to late. Most /.'ers can see what is coming but the general populs, the ones who vote (though how effective that is I don't know) will happily ignore things until it becomes and issue when the police turn up at the front door

    2. Re:This about sums it up for me by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As long as I don't do anything wrong why should I worry?

      I agree with your basic premise (although I don't think we are anywhere near a police state as the phrase is normally used), but one thing we do need is a cleary stated and consice answer to the above question. There is an answer, but it *is* a fair question.

      happily ignore things until it becomes and issue when the police turn up at the front door

      And if your wife asks, "Why would they show up up the front door? Give me exact examples." what would you say? It's not that people are that willfully ignorant, it's just that those raising the issue are not succeeding in making the threat seem real enough.

    3. Re:This about sums it up for me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      At least in the US, the correct answer to "As long as I don't do anything wrong why should I worry?" involves pointing out that the Constitution was written to protect you from the State's wrongdoing, not vice-versa.

      In the twentieth century alone, 100,000,000 people were murdered by their own governments. With a track record like that, the question should never be whether you're doing something wrong -- it should be whether they are.

    4. Re:This about sums it up for me by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Informative
      To me it seems people will only notice things are becoming a police state when its a bit to late.
      Not that this has anything to do with TFA, but most people misuse or do not understand the words "police state"

      "Security state" or "militarized state" more accurately describes what people like to biatch about.

      [/offtopic]

      I always take my wife as a normal type person who just wants technology to work. .... She doesn't really care about computers and seems to live in her own little bubble.
      Copyright isn't limited to computers, which is why your wife has a much better chance of comprehending the issues surrounding it.
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    5. Re:This about sums it up for me by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      you presented it wrong...

      Ask her if it's ok for the police to come into your home at any time and look through all your drawers and everything else at any time they like, and will jail you for telling them to go away or not letting them in.

      what is her response then?

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    6. Re:This about sums it up for me by forkazoo · · Score: 3, Insightful
      you presented it wrong...

      Ask her if it's ok for the police to come into your home at any time and look through all your drawers and everything else at any time they like, and will jail you for telling them to go away or not letting them in.

      what is her response then?


      You still overestimate the average person. They will say that the police would only do it to criminals, so they have no reason to fear the police having that authority. Seriously, I've tried to use this exact explanation. Somewhere along the line, people stopped believing that they themselves were the fundamental source of authority, and have come to believe that governments have inherent power. They believe that the government is always looking out for them, and beyond criticism. Somehow, they just don't get the fact the government is just a big group of people who are lazy, stupid, and power hungry as everybody else. Often, more so.
    7. Re:This about sums it up for me by element-o.p. · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Exactly!

      To some extent, the freedoms that most Western countries (at least the U.S.--I have limited experience in other Western countries) have enjoyed for so long have become our own worst enemy, in a sense.

      Because most of us in the U.S. have not had to fear our own government, we have adopted the mindset that our government *wouldn't* do the kinds of things that the Constitution was designed to prevent. Therefore, we don't care if Bush wiretaps in violation of the 4th amendment and FISA, if the Patriot Act eliminates many of the safeguards that prevent abuse of power, etc. After all, it's only going to be used to Protect Us Against the Terrorists (tm) or For The Children (tm), right?

      Unfortunately, history proves otherwise...but most of us apparently slept through history class :/

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    8. Re:This about sums it up for me by testong129 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have thought of that as an excuse for this behavior also, but then I think: who am to decide what is "right" and "wrong"? I am sure that your wife, as almost everyone else, does "wrong" things every day - speeding on the freeway, copying music CDs to her ipod, and now it is criticizing the government. In the past it was perfectly fine to go break Jewish-owned shops, intern Japanese-Americans, own slaves, [fill in something bad that your government did in the past]. We can always pretend that we are model citizens, but in the end we are all criminals.

      So it is the government and not her that gets to decide what is right and wrong. One day, they will decide that for whatever reason, they need to sniff her e-mails, or sniff her underwear drawer for drugs or bombs. And that day, there will be something "wrong" with her e-mail or whatever (e.g. thats not a picture of your 1 year old cousin taking a bath, that is kiddie porn). Then she is in prison mumbling, "first they came for my e-mail and I did nothing, then they came for my underwear and I did nothing, then they came for me..."

      I wonder what she, and the rest of you, would say about that.

    9. Re:This about sums it up for me by swarsron · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "And if your wife asks, "Why would they show up up the front door? Give me exact examples." what would you say? It's not that people are that willfully ignorant, it's just that those raising the issue are not succeeding in making the threat seem real enough."

      That's a very real problem. But it's not necessarily the fault of the person raising the issue. I often discover that even if you give people quite concrete examples they disregard them because they think that it's too farfetched. And that's mainly because they don't understand the technological changes that took place.

      I live in germany and some of you will remember germany was parted into the BRD (nice USA loving part) and the DDR (bad evil communists). One of the main instruments to hold their power in the DDR was the Stasi ("Staatsicherheit", one could translate this to ministry of state (homeland ;) security). In the end there were 1 people out of 7 deployed by the stasi (not all full time, most of them only as snitches). So it was a really enourmous effort to get the information needed to control those with dissenting views.

      What people don't get is the power of correlating databases. One datasource by itself might not seem so bad but if you start to combine several you get information out of them which is way more interesting than just the sum of those databases. The instruments used by the stasi are nothing against what someone could do if he got access to the different databases we're currently creating. And all of this almost instantly and with way less people.

      If i tell people about this most of them just don't get it. Maybe it's because i can't make my point but i think that it is because they never worked with databases and really can't comprehend what's possible. I didn't realize it fully until i was at a congress of the CCC (http://www.ccc.de/) where someone demonstrated what you can do in 30 minutes with public databases. I'm convinced that people see us as paranoid because they just don't know whats possible and so it's very hard to give examples which seem relevant/plausible to them.

    10. Re:This about sums it up for me by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Insightful
      It's not that people are that willfully ignorant, it's just that those raising the issue are not succeeding in making the threat seem real enough.
      They do not see laws designed to strip the rights of Bad Guys (copyright infringers, terrorists, anti-social asshats) as affecting them, because they do not percieve Bad Guys as part of their "community".

      Change "making the threat seem real enough"
      to "making the threat seem personal enough"

      The quickest and easiest way to do that is to ask [Whoever] personal questions you know they aren't going to answer.

      When [Whoever] refuses, ask them "As long as you didn't do anything wrong, why shouldn't you answer?"

      The answer they give you is the same answer to the question "As long as I don't do anything wrong why should I worry?"

      Once you change the way those people look at the issue, you can change the way they feel about it. To do that, you have to go after their fundamental assumption that Bad Guys != Their Community.
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    11. Re:This about sums it up for me by dpilot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How about the New York State Thruway analogy.

      Back in the old days, the speed limit on the NYST was 55mph, like other limited-access highways. But NOBODY went 55mph, and in fact it was quite common to drive past police cars at 70mph, assuming they weren't driving right beside you at that speed, or faster.

      In essence, EVERYONE was breaking the law. That also meant that had they wanted to, or if they had to fill a quota of some sort, they could stop ANYONE for at least a speeding ticket. Beyond that, they could probably add reckless endangerment, etc. But the reality is, since everyone was breaking the law, they could adopt alternate criteria for stopping you, say they don't like your looks, or your car's looks.

      To be honest, I don't know that the system was ever abused in this way. I never heard of any abuse, that that doesn't mean that there was or wasn't any.

      But the possiblity was there.

      Now to bring it home to your wife...

      Do you KNOW that you're not breaking any laws? When was the last time you sat down and read ALL the laws, to sort out which ones are applicable to you? How about Blue Laws? I've heard that some places have laws on the books that the Missionary Position is the only legal method for sexual intercourse. I don't know whether that's true or not, but I do remember some time in the past few years, a high court ruling that upheld a law against sex toys in your own bedroom. There was recently a rider forbidding mail-order purchase prescription drugs from Canada, and it was tacked onto a completely unrelated bill. It turns out that sometimes these riders are added late in the process, too late to be in the version of the bill given to legislators for review. Things can sail right under the radar, leaving room for "selective enforcement."

      In these days, I'd mostly fear not knowing enough about who I'm doing business with. In a completely innocent fashion, it's possible to "make material contributions to terrorist organizations," by simply buying something from the wrong people.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  2. Main stream only now? by balsy2001 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This has been a very big issue for corpoprations and politicians for years now (think of Disney getting copyright extensions for mickey mouse), but only recently due to the advances in technology has it become a household issue.

    --
    GENERATION 27: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
  3. Civil rights...not environment... by Suzumushi · · Score: 4, Insightful
    A more appropriate comparison/parallel for the copyright issue would be civil rights, not the environment.

    And similarily, landmark court decisions and not legislation will probably determine the direction that copyright will take us...back to the slave owning days, or to a future of equal opportunity.

    1. Re:Civil rights...not environment... by s20451 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Both deal with the obligations of an individual to respect the interests (if not legally the rights) of the rest of the world. Intellectual property is essentially the intellectual equivalent of pollution, a by-product of the creation of ideas that is frequently toxic to other ideas and inventions.

      And yet the vast majority of "idea creators" (inventors, musicians, artists, etc) are in favour of intellectual property in some form.

      And yet the United States, with some of the world's most restrictive intellectual property legislation, is probably the most innovative society in science, technology, and the arts, that the world has ever produced.

      And yet without copyright, the GPL could not force downstream authors to release their source. Stallman's greatest contribution may have been to demonstrate the sheer power and flexibility of IP protection.

      My anecdotal observation is that the people most cheesed off about intellectual property are primarily or entirely consumers of IP, and not producers. Nobody enjoys paying for things, but that's how the economy works.

      I agree that current IP law needs reform. But to say that it is "pollution" is horseshit.

      --
      Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
    2. Re:Civil rights...not environment... by s20451 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Did you really just say the US is probably the most innovative society in the arts the world has ever produced? I think you are mistaking money with innovation.

      I notice that you do not dispute my claims about science and technology. Briefly, Americans invented jazz and rock routinely win the Palme d'Or at the Cannes Film Festival (incl. 2 of the past 4 years); and produced or hosted some of the world's greatest visual artists and architects, such as Frank Lloyd Wright, Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, Sol Lewitt, Dan Flavin, Daniel Libeskind, Frank Gehry, Richard Serra, and so on.

      hint what do the oil/gas companies really think of pollution compared to the rest of us, they probably call it "untargetted by-products"

      That analogy undermines your point. For one thing, the original poster claimed that pollution = IP, not that IP was an unwanted byproduct. If you think oil and gas are evil too, feel free to go a month without using them. (Hint: you will starve to death, because how do your groceries get to market?)

      --
      Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
  4. I doubt it becomes as much an issue by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Informative

    Environmental issues went big in the late 70s and 80s, but I doubt we'll see a similar development today. You have to see that people were quite a bit different then. Many were looking for "alternatives", there was a general sentiment for less technology and more back-to-the-roots. The peace movement in the shadow of the atomic stalemate between the two superpowers was a huge driver as well, and people were generally more politically interested than they are today.

    To make matters worse, to be concerned over copyright, you first of all have to have access to copyrightable material. If you don't then, well, the stuff doesn't really matter to you. So you have to be one of those that actually either produce or consume content. Now, producers of copyrightable material will hardly argue that there is too little restriction for the user, and people who're the proverbial "lazy consumer" will hardly stand up and become political movers.

    Let's also not forget that the environment and peace movement was also driven by songwriters, poets and other "content creators", and only a handful of them were actually concerned with the issue, the rest saw a huge market to milk. Now, which artist out for money would sing against copyright?

    Generally, I'm a little pessimistic that copyright becomes the "green" movement of the 2010s. I'd love to see it, and I'll support it with everything I can, but my hopes are not too high.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  5. US Economy by javilon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    After the manufacturing sector imploded and now the services sector is hit by outsourcing, the only strongly exportable products produced by the American economy are linked to IP.
    The problem is that for this to work, the rest of the world has to adopt USA IP laws, and most countries know it goes against their best interest, so they are not very enthusiastic about it.

    --


    When his defense asked, "Which computer has Jon Johansen trespassed upon?" the answer was: "His own."
  6. And in another tie-in by michaelmalak · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I wonder why the publisher still make me take atoms when all I really want are bits.

    I.e. getting rid of copyrights (or bringing them back to 14+14 years) would help the environment.

    1. Re:And in another tie-in by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2, Informative
      Can somebody explain why so many people think copyrights were originally 14+14 years? I hear this erroneous assertion frequently. From the copyright office: "Under the law in effect before 1978 ... the copyright lasted for a first term of 28 years from the date it was secured. The copyright was eligible for renewal during the last (28th) year of the first term. If renewed, the copyright was extended for a second term of 28 years." In other words, 28+28.
      It's not an erroneous assertion. The Copyright Act of 1790 set copyright terms at 14 years, renewable for 14 more. The 28+28 terms were enacted by the Copyright Act of 1909. Current copyright law came into effect with the Copyright Act of 1976. See, when the copyright office says "the law in effect before 1978", they're talking about the Copyright Act of 1909. Note how they do not say that the "before 1978" law goes all the way back to the forming of the nation.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  7. Average people giving a crap, finally. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I can't believe this hasn't been modded up.

    I think you hit the nail on the head: copyright has been a political issue for a while, but it's only recently that it's started to affect normal people. Thus they care, where they didn't give a damn before.

    Most people don't care about things in the political realm, outside of the small sphere which they perceive as actually having a direct effect on their lives.

    E.g., one of the reasons the gun lobby is so big in the U.S., is that there are a lot of people who own guns, and realize that changes in gun laws could directly affect their lives, and thus take an interest in it, one way or the other.

    If you had as many bittorrent users as there are gun owners, and if those bittorrent users found their bittorrenting to be as important to them as gun owners find their gun ownership and its associated activities, then there's no reason why the "BitTorrent Lobby" wouldn't be equally powerful.

    It's all about making average people care.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  8. I find some IP/Copyright Arguments Confusing by mcwop · · Score: 2, Insightful
    In a world with no copyright protection, companies will simply create their own protection schemes. Absent law that states otherwise, companies will not be obligated to share their protection schemes with anyone that won't meet their terms. Of course, people could try and circumvent the protection schemes, and the schemes might prevent market success for their products (though this is not guaranteed). But, it is foolish to think that without copyright everything would be easily copy able by everyone except the technologically savvy.

    Without copyright, maybe even Microsoft might come up with a protection scheme that works.

    --

    "I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX

  9. Most People Want A Police State by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Most human beings are happier under the boot of some dictatorship or the other. As long as they're in a relatively snug groove of the boot, the stamping doesn't really bother them.

    Let's look at the history of humanity. For most of human civilisation, and even before that, humans lived in societies without rights, equality, freedoms or justice. The powerful ruled, and if you objected, you would either be brutally beaten or killed outright. Not only that, your extended family could also be expected to suffer as well.

    So with that in mind, lets consider the human "liberty loving" gene, the one that bristles when your rights are infringed upon. Do you think that is now a common gene? Do you think most human beings have retained a strong expression in genes like that one. Or do you think that rather, it is those humans who expressed more "quiet sheep" genes that proliferated throughout most of history.

    Most people are descended from a long, long line of quiet, contented serfs. Ergo, most people will naturally act and behave like quiet, contented serfs. You are surrounded by them daily, choked by their suffocating apathy. They are individual only in the individual ways that they acquiesce to other humans who exude the "master" pheromone. Ultimately, democracy collapses under the dead weight of their inborn complacency

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
  10. Continuous Copyright == Continuous Environment by willow · · Score: 2

    It's no wonder copyright has become a political issue -- copyrights have been extended (in the U.S. at least) everytime they're about to expire, effectively having infinite lifespans. How can you ignore something that's forever?

    Solution: limited copyrights, like it was originally intended. Current law "reduces" the rate of new work since authors can ride the gravy train of one work forever. Infinite copyright also makes copyrights assets to be acquired, hoarded, and protected via lawsuits. Limited copyrights would make all that go away.

    We'd certainly live in a different landscape with limited copyrights and I think I'd like to try it out for while. Wake me up when that happens (like never..).

    --
    Moderation in everything, including moderation.
  11. Re:What precisely is wrong with copyright? by Peaker · · Score: 2, Interesting
    then it should be my prerogative to decide if I sell that book, if I give it away, who can distribute it...
    Why should it? I hope you realize that this is your personal opinion. A lot of us think that the individual freedom to share, copy, modify, or otherwise do anything I want with information in my posesion is more important than the distribution control of the author. This is obviously a tradeoff between certain factors:
    1. The author's control over the distribution (And thus, the profitability and incentive to create works).
    2. The freedom of users to share, copy, or modify the works (And thus, the possibility to enhance the state of the art and a potential to increase efficiency).
    3. The amount of government involvement.

    The position people have on copyright is not inherent, and I think you have been educated/conditioned to believe that one thing "should" be and the other shouldn't. I think we "should" decide whether copyright is right/moral based on the perceived value of that tradeoff.

    I see where copyright supporters come from, because they simply have different ideas about how important each item in the above list is.

    I personally find number 1 and 3 less important, and find number 2 (Both in the freedom and in the efficiency aspect) to be of much higher importance.

    That is why I think copyright is wrong.

    Copyright is the reason that a popular band cannot claim your work as their own.
    Even if that were the case (not having all the facts, I think it is not), a limited law about the ability to make a civilian libel case against those who attribute your work to them would be a satisfactory solution, regardless of copyright.