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Will Stallman Kill the "Linux Revolution?"

frdmfghtr writes "The October 30 issue of Forbes Magazine has an article speculating that Richard Stallman's efforts to rewrite the GPL could threaten to 'tear it apart.' The article describes how the GPLv3 is expected to be incompatible with the GPLv2, causing trouble for Linux vendors such as Novell and Red Hat. The article wraps it up: 'And a big loser, eventually, could be Stallman himself. If he relents now, he likely would be branded a sellout by his hard-core followers, who might abandon him. If he stands his ground, customers and tech firms may suffer for a few years but ultimately could find a way to work around him. Either way, Stallman risks becoming irrelevant, a strange footnote in the history of computing: a radical hacker who went on a kamikaze mission against his own program and went down in flames, albeit after causing great turmoil for the people around him.'"

22 of 741 comments (clear)

  1. What a load of sensationalist FUD! by Eric+Smith · · Score: 5, Informative

    Linux is going to stick with GPLv2 regardless of what the FSF does with GPLv3. That has little to do with Linus disliking GPLv3, and much do to with not being able to track down all the contributors and get them to agree to a license change. GPLv3 is not going to cause any trouble for Linux vendors. It's certainly not going to "kill the Linux Revolution". There is nothing in GPLv2 or GPLv3 that prevents a Linux distribution from containing various programs under various licenses, just as Linux distributions today contain code under GPLv2, BSD, MIT, and other licenses. And GPLv3 doesn't make Stallman himself any more or less relevant that he's been in the past. The only point of bone-headed sensationalist reporting like this is to try to sell more copies of the magazine. Next month they'll tell us the GPLv3 will contribute to global warming, and the following month that it will promote slavery.

    1. Re:What a load of sensationalist FUD! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Informative
      Or do you seriously believe that Linus hasn't consulted with attorneys on this?

      I wouldn't be at all surprised. Considering how he's managed the Linux trademark, and the general lack of understanding of the GPL he's publicly displayed, I'd almost be surprised if he even knows any IP lawyers. In contrast, RMS has had Even Moglen on board from day one.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    2. Re:What a load of sensationalist FUD! by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Informative

      Or do you seriously believe that Linus hasn't consulted with attorneys on this?

      See, now that's funny. Linus is the guy who claims that a device driver isn't a derived work of the Linux kernel if it was originally developed for a different operating system and then ported to Linux. This, of course, is not based on any legal principle.. it's just his opinion, but it doesn't stop people from quoting Linus like they're referencing case law.

      What's more funny is that when Linus added the "userland exception" to the Linux kernel he was absolutely clear about what he wanted.. he wanted people to be able to write proprietary apps that can run on the Linux kernel. He didn't want people to be able to write proprietary extensions to the Linux kernel. Now he's changed his mind because his "pragmatism" is telling him that graphics card manufacturers will never open source their drivers and he really wants all those pretty 3d games.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    3. Re:What a load of sensationalist FUD! by Kjella · · Score: 3, Informative

      That has little to do with Linus disliking GPLv3, and much do to with not being able to track down all the contributors and get them to agree to a license change

      Well, if they all saw it as a major advantage, they'd probably check how many were willing to relicense, and how much would have to be rewritten (where they can't be reached or otherwise). They did do a poll in the kernel core though, and all but one (which was netural) of them was negative to the GPLv3, some of them strongly.

      There is nothing in GPLv2 or GPLv3 that prevents a Linux distribution from containing various programs under various licenses

      No, but the libraries might. Take for example Trolltech, which holds the copyright to all of Qt. If they say "GPLv3 is a disaster - we're going GPLv2 only" then suddenly you could have quite a few problems. Or if projects don't agree on whether to use the "and later" clause, maybe someone starts a GPLv3 fork and others get pissed and create a GPLv2 only fork - which are now incompatible code bases. Suddenly you're rather screwed if you have an application, but want to use one GPLv2 only library and one GPLv3 library. What's nice about the GPL is that there is in practise only one GPL (I don't see the first version anywhere) and it's all compatible.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    4. Re:What a load of sensationalist FUD! by Thomas+the+Doubter · · Score: 5, Informative

      Mr. Bungi, I do not know why you defend this obvious hatchet-job published by Forbes. But the author of the article truely does not know (or care to know) what he is talking about. "Richard M. Stallman is a 53-year-old anticorporate crusader" This is not what RMS is about - he really does not give two hoots about corporations as such, much less "crusade" against them. Here is where the author engages in misleading non-truth ("specious lies?) "who has argued for 20 years that most software should be free of charge" Assuming the author knows anything at all about RMS and the Free Software Foundation, he knows that this is not true. Similarly: "He and a band of anarchist acolytes long have waged war on the commercial software industry" First, Stallman (unfortunately?) does not have acolytes - If there are such unthinking followers, I have not met them. Second, and mentioned above "war on the commercial software industry" is a complete fabrication. RMS, as far as I can tell, has little interest in damaging the commercial software industry. Yes, he is an ideologue, but put the emphasis on ideals. "dubbing tech giants "evil" and "enemies of freedom" because they rake in sales and enforce patents and copyrights--when he argues they should be giving it all away." Again, utter nonsense. Yes, I wonder why the Forbes piece was written - I am asking - and I wonder why you defend this object of malice.

    5. Re:What a load of sensationalist FUD! by AuMatar · · Score: 4, Informative

      Umm, you're wrong on both counts.

      1)Having to spit out your source code

      No, thats not in there. What it does say is that if the app already does that, you are not allowed to remove that (and distribute the new version). You don't have to make it do so in the first place though.

      2)Can't use encryption

      Sure you can. However, if you cryptographically sign your code and make hardware that only works with the signed version, you must provide your keys so that people can alter your code and use the derived version.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    6. Re:What a load of sensationalist FUD! by grylnsmn · · Score: 4, Informative
      Well, it's hard to say how it will function. If software producer A sign their binaries, and hardware company B produces hardware that only reads binaries signed by A, the GPLv3 is somehow supposed to magically supply me with A's private key so that I might run modified versions of the application. But A isn't doing anything to demand release of the keys, and B isn't bound by the GPLv3 because they don't ship software. If a company can find a way to ship the software and hardware separately (or under the "mere aggregation" clause, or claiming that the software and hardware is not a derivative work according to copyright law), then the GPLv3 is screwed.
       

      Well, the GPL is a distribution license, so it would only affect B if they are distributing the software.

      If they don't have the key from A to distribute, they still have the option of getting the source (we are talking about GPL'd software, after all) and signing it themselves with their own key, then distributing that key with it.

      In short, your example is pretty bad overall.

    7. Re:What a load of sensationalist FUD! by The+Bungi · · Score: 3, Informative
      Please don't insult my intelligence with the "but we're all good and they're all evil" party line, OK? Richard Stallman has an agenda and he pursues it by pushing a license that restricts what developers can do with the source code while claiming "maximum freedom" and the like. Of course no one forces me to use GPL'ed code, but then no one forces me to buy Microsoft Word either, so a EULA is no different than the GPL since none of them involve coercion.

      But this begs a rebuttal:

      the other for cooperatively universal benefit at the expense of none

      Let's do this. Let's imagine for a second that a popular piece of software in the Windows world was released as free software under the GPL. Let's pick PaintShop Pro or DOOM or WinZip or TextPad or any other one. Now, explain to us how exactly the authors of those products would have made any money if they were licensed under the GPL. Specifically after some kid in Romania with loads of time in his hand decided to put up his own version for download and give it away for free. Please, enlighten me.

      While you're doing that, remember that there is no difference whatsoever between Stallman calling nVidia "nVidious" because they dare keep their source code to themselves and someone from Microsoft calling the GPL "viral". Stallman doesn't like what nVidia does, but he can't do squat about it, and Microsoft doesn't like the GPL, and they can't do squat about it. So they must resort to FUD. FUD works both ways.

      Oh, and I live how you spell "MicroSoft". Hilarious.

    8. Re:What a load of sensationalist FUD! by shades66 · · Score: 5, Informative

      >This is Forbes magazine.

      No it's worse than that.. It's Forbes magazine with an article written by Dan "SCO is going to win, Linux users are terrorists etc.." Lyons.

      --
      ---- There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that understand binary and those that don't
  2. There's always BSD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Many of us have already moved away from Linux to BSD. Besides the many technical advantages of FreeBSD, the portability benefits of NetBSD, the extreme security of OpenBSD, and the massive scalability of DragonFly BSD, we don't have to deal with unreasonable licensing nonsense.

    If somebody wants to take BSD code, modify it and not release those changes, then so be it. It doesn't hurt the rest of us, as we still have FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and DragonFly BSD to use. Beyond that, such use may make somebody else better off. Thus, there's a net benefit overall. We lose nothing, yet others gain.

    And I'd be very happy if Microsoft were to use more BSD code in their products. Doing so would result in a vast increase in the quality of their codebase. That, in turn, will result in fewer infected Windows systems that send terabytes of spam to my mail servers. The less spam my servers have to filter, the more money I save in bandwidth and processing costs. I may even be able to reduce the number of mail servers I have.

  3. Re:what a difference a decade makes by jmv · · Score: 3, Informative

    The Linux kernel may not switch, but that will not doom V3, nor will it doom the FSF or Stallman.

    That's not the issue. The problem is that it's becoming likely that GPLv3 will split FOSS software in two, with half the people going with GPLv2-only and the other half going with GPLv3-or-later. This means no possible exchange of code between the two pools and possibly lots of forks, especially for libraries. I hope the worst case scenario doesn't happen, but GPLv3 has potential for doing much more damage than any gain it can provide (even it you think it's good in itself). As far as I'm concerned all the (L)GPL software I write will be GPLv2-or-later, making GPLv3 useless, but mitigating the incompatibility problem.

  4. Is Forbes Credible? by femto · · Score: 5, Informative

    I find it hard to take Frobes seriously when they start out by misrepresenting the postion of the person they are talking about (Stallman).

    "Richard M. Stallman is a 53-year-old anticorporate crusader who has argued for 20 years that most software should be free of charge. He and a band of anarchist acolytes long have waged war on the commercial software industry, dubbing tech giants "evil" and "enemies of freedom" because they rake in sales and enforce patents and copyrights--when he argues they should be giving it all away."

    • Stallman does not argue that "most software should be free of charge". The GPL, which he wrote, specifically says one is allowed to charge for GPLd software.
    • Stallman doesn't argue that "they should be giving it all away." He does argue that they shouldn't have a monopoly, which is very different to "giving it all away".
  5. No wonder, it's a Dan Lyons article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    C'mon, people! This is a Dan Lyons article. He's been writing anti-Linux FUD for years. Groklaw and /. have eviscerated this guy's credibility on this subject repeatedly (do a search, you'll see). Quoting him on this subject is like asking Bill Gates if he thinks Linux is going to beat Windows in the marketplace: you know the answer before you ask the question.

  6. Business FUD not linux FUD by JoeCommodore · · Score: 3, Informative

    The article is from a Daniel Lyons talking about "restricting business"
    though the real point of GPL v# seems to be is to keep free software from
    restricting users (at the expense of shady business lock-in practices).

    Lots of FUD about how this will hurt the (business) economy, etc. A
    lot of the gist sounds like a push to privitize the previous work of
    the community.

    Also a bunch of exploitave tabloid-style character attacks on Stallman.

    Seems Daniel uses this simliar muck raking style with other platforms:
    http://www.forbes.com/2006/03/22/vista-microsoft-b allmer_cz_dl_0322mi...

    Some people have written about the author:
    http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/174 sounds like he
    equally pisses off eveyone he reports about.

    --
    "Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
  7. Say what you want about Stallman... by Infonaut · · Score: 3, Informative

    but calling him "a strange footnote in the history of computing" is just idiotic.

    Anyone who polarizes people to such a large degree, has generated so much passion, and has served as the point man of the free software movement deserves to be regarded as a towering figure in the history of computing. Whether GPL 3 succeeds or fails, Stallman has already left his mark. Again, it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with him; he's no footnote.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  8. Re:Slightly OT: Why isn't the language "more clear by Telvin_3d · · Score: 3, Informative

    I think you are missing the point to some extent. Almost all of the 'legal language' that gets argued over was, when it was originally written, "present-day common usage". In 50 or 100 years, what you are suggesting would only lead to lawyers fighting over the interpretation of our "common day language" interpretation of laws that are another 100 years old. Just from your own example, I could see the meanings and usage of a word like 'duplicating' shift significantly in 50 years time.

    I am not a lawyer, but I know enough to think twice about complaining about the specialized language of another profession. No one goes to work wanting to use obscure and hard to understand terms. Every odd usage and non intuitive phrase has a reason for existing and most of the time I would be willing to bet that it is a good reason.

  9. Re:Insulting, inflammatory, & funny by Rudolf · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually, yes, Stallman is opposed to copyright, _per se_, at least as far a software is concerned. He's quite open about that; he believes deeply in something he refers to as "the freedom to tinker". Copyright, if it applies to software packages, completely breaks the freedom to tinker.

    Then why does he copyright all his stuff instead of releasing it into the public domain free of copyright?

  10. Re:Insulting, inflammatory, & funny by Arker · · Score: 4, Informative

    Then why does he copyright all his stuff instead of releasing it into the public domain free of copyright?

    Because, all the fashionable slashdot trolling to the contrary, he's an eminently practical man. If he released it PD he knows someone would just grab it, modify it a little, and close it off. He knows this because he learned the hard way - this was done with much of his early work.

    He'd like to change copyright law, but being unable at least for the moment to do that, he came up with a way to hack copyright law to serve his purposes instead.

    --
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  11. Re:Slightly OT: Why isn't the language "more clear by ignavus · · Score: 5, Informative

    Let me see ... how many Ecumenical Councils were there? So the Nicene Council around 325 - oh, wait, the Nicene Creed was amended a little at the later Constinopolitan Council ... so it has only been unchanged in the last 1500 years. Besides the creed itself, they passed a whole lot of provisions of canon law. Then there were the provisions of the other councils, and the later Orthodox and Catholic Councils that still have force as canon law. The laws of England include provisions going back to the reign of Edward III (1300s) that are still in force (or were until recently). Hmmm Magna Carta - now there is a document to make your Constitution look like a juvenile.

    History wasn't invented in America. Some places have been around longer, and have a longer tradition of unchanged principles. Jewish law goes back, in some matters, over 3,000 years. America is just a Johnny-come-lately in the world of legal history.

    --
    I am anarch of all I survey.
  12. Re:Slightly OT: Why isn't the language "more clear by LinuxIsRetarded · · Score: 3, Informative

    It has never changed. The translations from the original Hebrew are slightly different. Exodus 20:13 in various translations:

    NIV: "You shall not murder.
    KJV: Thou shalt not kill.
    The Message: No murder.
    NKJV: "You shall not murder.

    It seems as though the most widely agreed upon translation from the original Hebrew is "murder." Despite the various translations, I don't think anyone has ever misunderstood this or any of the other Commandments.

  13. Re:Slightly OT: Why isn't the language "more clear by kraada · · Score: 5, Informative

    It was always that way. Killing is perfectly justified for a large variety of reasons in the Torah. Capital punishment is common, there are fairly complex rules for retribution, and plenty of times G-d Himself says "go out and win a glorious victory" if you read the assorted Prophets and Writings. If all killing were outlawed, there'd be a heck of a lot of contradiction here.

    Murder, though, is unjustified killing. It breaks one of the Ten Commandments to pick a child at random and bash his head in. It does not break one of the Ten Commandments to kill your enemy in battle.

    I prefer to reading which doesn't cause G-d to be commanding His people to break the Ten Commandments, personally.

    For the nitpickers:
    The Hebrew word in question is 'ratzach' (which is conjugated to tirtzach in the text; Exodus XX, 13). Modern usage (according to my dictionary) clearly indicates murder as the first definition, and 'kill' as secondary. There is another verb 'harag' which can also mean 'kill', unfortunately I'm not as up on my Hebrew, so I can't say for sure whether this word is: a) used for more general killing, b) used more for killing of animals, or c) a modern invention.