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If Not America, Then Where?
Wellington Grey asks: "Often during our heated political discussions on slashdot, several people will mention their desire to leave the country. As an American living in England, which sees much the same problems as the US, I often wonder where these Americans would go. So, I pose two questions for the restless: 1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?"
You would be surprised, but drug use among native Dutchmen is among the lowest in Europe. Mostly German and English tourists use it (when I hear/see an Englishman in Amsterdam, I can smell weed too most of the time). Labdrugs are mostly for export. OK, nothing to be proud of, but if you thought everyone and his sister was an addict, you're wrong.
I'm a native dutch person and I'm very ashamed to say that the parent is more or less accurate about our current immigration policy :-(
There's a chance that it will improve again, but currently there's a (grassroots/astroturf?) fear campaign against foreigners, mostly focussed on islamic cultured or coloured people, but americans as well (your current president isn't helping your reputation!).
My only apology can be that I didn't vote for this government.
I'm an American currently living in Amsterdam. The immigration policy for kennismigrants (literally knowledge immigrants) couldn't be easier! If you've got good IT skills you'll be welcomed with open arms. Oh, and how about making 30% of your income totally tax-free for the next 10 years? The government will pay for you to take 3 years of free Dutch classes (maybe depending on the gemeente, but Gemeente Zuid Amsterdam certainly does as I'm currently in the program). You just trade your US drivers license in for a Dutch one for with no test required. You can import 2 vehicles per person totally tax-free, and your partner (either gender, married or not) will get a work permit from day 1 as well. I think constantly about how Mexicans are treated back in the US, and I honestly have to say I can't imagine that there is anywhere in the world that welcomes immigrants as well as the Dutch welcome high-tech people with valuable skills.
:)
I've been here 13 months and can't say I've regretted the decision even once. The Dutch are obviously having immigration issues with Muslims not being integrated into the population. But as they tighten the rules for the general population, the rules for IT geeks have gotten much more relaxed.
I work 40 hours a week, I'm home every day before 17:00. I bicycle or take public transport everywhere I want to go, I brought my motorbike over but just for fun. I get 28 days of holiday plus about 8 public and company holidays. Sure I took about a 40% pay cut from the US, but my quality of life has never been higher (pun intended
Correction: Weed is not physiologically addictive, only psychologically.
Plenty of things are physiologically addictive (caffeine, heroin, cocaine, etc). Weed is not.
Psychological addiction is "real" addiction, but:
1. It's normally not as physically/medically dangerous as physiological addiction, because it's only your behaviour and attitudes which change, not your body-chemistry. Psychological addiction won't damage your body - the worst it'll do is make you carry on doing things that might.
2. There's no guarantee that anyone will ever get psychologically addicted to anything. Take heroin regularly for more than a few months and (barring genetic freaks) it's more or less certain you'll get addicted. Play WoW for ten years, and it's entirely likely at the end of it you'll be able to put it down at the end of it and never touch it again.
3. If something's "only" psychologically addictive, we historically don't tend to ban it. Shopping, chocolate, sex and gambling are all psychologically addictive, so banning everything which may cause pysychological addiction is clearly a non-starter.
Because it's "only mental" this tend to be where we draw the line between "banning dangerous activites" and "not being a nanny-state" - ultimately psychological addiction is merely a question of discipline, determination or strength of character, and most people believe they shouldn't be banned from their hobby activity simply because some people aren't adult enough to know their own limits.
Everything in moderation, including moderation itself
To reply to your obviously UNINFORMED response...
"You DON'T need to speak Dutch before being accepted, no matter where you are from."
Sorry bud.. try again. I'm quoting from the Dutch IND website.
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Civic integration examination abroad introduced
As of March 15th migrants wishing to settle in the Netherlands for, in particular, the purposes of marrying or forming a relationship are required to take the civic integration examination abroad.
Many people aged between 16 and 65 who need an authorisation for temporary residence (MVV) in order to come to the Netherlands will first be obliged to complete the civic integration examination abroad in their country of residence. This applies, amongst others, to people who wish to form a family with someone in the Netherlands (for example, through marriage or by forming a relationship) and to religious leaders coming to the Netherlands for employment, such as imams or preachers. In many cases, obtaining the integration examination becomes an additional condition needing to be met before an MVV can be issued.
The examination tests fundamental knowledge of the Dutch language and Dutch society. The examination is held orally, in Dutch, at the Dutch embassy or consulate general in the foreign national's country of residence. Taking the examination will cost approximately 350.
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So.. read that... it DOES matter where you're from, and YOU MUST SPEAK DUTCH BEFORE YOU ENTER THE COUNTRY. That fundamental knowledge test is administered OVER THE PHONE by a computer voice recognition system. If you have any kind of accent, good luck getting it to recognize your attempts at speaking Dutch.
So on your first point, you're WRONG.
On point 2, you're wrong again. Have you actually viewed the video that the IND created for foreigners wishing to come to the NL? Have you? I doubt it. Have you gone to your local Stadshuis and attended the integration courses? I'm not talking the ROC sponsored courses... I'm talking about the MANDATORY course that you have to attend that is administered by the City Council. It's crap. I've gone and done it... and they did teach us important things like.. flushing a toilet and how to make that wonderful Dutch food called stampot. Apparently knowing how to make stampot was more important that learning Dutch history and the place the NL holds in the world community.
On point 3... that was the case years ago... before Rita Verdonk got her grubby hands on the IND. Now it's pretty much impossible to bring a family here. Go get your copy of the Volkskrant... read it.. there is an article in there.. wait, I'll link it for you
http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article360232. ece/Aantal_aanvragen_voor_gezinshereniging_daalt
For those of you who don't read Dutch, the highlights are... Up to the month August this year, 17,000 family reunification applications were filed. In 2005, there were 30,000 applications, and before that, 42,000. Since the implementation of the new law that you must speak Dutch prior to entering the NL, 1384 people have passed the exam.
On point 4... check again... it used to be allowed to have dual nationalities here in the NL... not anymore - as of about 5 years ago actually... the Dutch Immigration law states you MUST renounce your birth citizenship.
Quoting again from the IND website from the section on conditions for citizenship:
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You are prepared to give up your current nationality. If you do not give up your current nationality even though you are supposed to, your Dutch nationality may be revoked.
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Point 5... Wrong again. Geez... did you do any research at all on this? You must be a permanent resident for FIVE years, not six. The 12 year number is NOT bullshit. Again, quoting from the IND website:
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Your Dutch nationality may be revoked. This can happen even as long a
See the OECD Tax Database for lots of data (in Excel format) on comparative tax rates in various countries. The US is relatively low-tax.
This table shows top marginal tax rate, factoring in social security-type contributions if they are separate. The actual definition for the number is "The all-in (top marginal) tax rate, calculated as the additional central and sub-central government personal income tax, plus employee social security contribution, resulting from a unit increase in gross wage earnings. The all-in rate takes account of the same aspects as the combined rate, but does in addition include employee social security contributions and if they are deductible in central government taxes etc." This table is for 2005.
Hungary 69.5%
Denmark 63.0%
Belgium 59.3%
Sweden 56.6%
Finland 56.5%
Netherlands 52.0%
Poland 51.8%
Norway 51.3%
Greece 49.6%
France 48.6%
Australia 48.5%
Ireland 48.0%
Luxembourg 47.9%
Japan 47.9%
Switzerland 47.9%
Portugal 46.6%
Canada 46.4%
Spain 45.0%
Germany 44.3%
Italy 44.1%
United States 42.7%
Austria 42.7%
Turkey 41.1%
United Kingdom 41.0%
Czech Republic 40.5%
Iceland 40.2%
New Zealand 39.0%
Korea 38.2%
Slovak Republic 29.9%
Mexico 24.6%
I had to reply to this. I'm an American living in Noord-Brabant, and have had exactly the opposite experience you apparently have. I moved here to be with my boyfriend under "family formation." I hold an MA degree and have an extensive professional background. I have been here 18 months, and have had nothing but hassles with the Dutch immigration system. The residence and work permits that are legally required to be processed in less than 6 months took 10.5, and when I did receive my first permit, it was good for a whole 6 weeks before I had to have a renewal. The renewal took a further 3.5 months, and I was not allowed to work or even seek work until July of this year (14 months after I moved here.) I am required by law to take Dutch language and integration courses. If I attend less than 80%, I am fined by the government. If I fail to attend, I risk deportation. These aren't facts I picked up from the internet- I was informed of this when I went to my first meeting with the city after (finally) receiving my permits. I could not trade my US license for a Dutch one- though I have been driving since 1988 in the US, I had to take costly lessons, a theory exam, and a practical exam before getting my Dutch drivers' license. The CBR (drivers' branch) informed me of this, and it was long and costly. I am not in IT, and though I have a solid professional background, job agencies tell me that the only jobs they can get me into are at call centers, for about 30% of my last income and less than I lived off of while going through college (gross, not net.) If you're in IT it is a lot easier to deal with the IND, but your company will be your sponsor and if you don't stay with that company, or don't change the paperwork and have your new company become your legal sponsor, you can and will be deported. The man's lucky we have a good relationship, or I would have headed back to the US a long time ago.
I can't believe no-one linked to this:
"The world's top cities offering the best quality of life"
Since half this thread debated the Netherlands, I'll point out that the top 12 cities are not in the Netherlands, but in these countries:
- Switzerland
- Canada
- Austria
- New Zealand
- Germany
- Australia
- Denmark
Almost pointless at the end of such a long thread, but hopefully some lucky soul reads this.
SLM
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