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If Not America, Then Where?
Wellington Grey asks: "Often during our heated political discussions on slashdot, several people will mention their desire to leave the country. As an American living in England, which sees much the same problems as the US, I often wonder where these Americans would go. So, I pose two questions for the restless: 1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?"
I always kinda liked the idea that I get to live in the future just by staying alive.
Infuriate left and right
Warm beach with girls. Money.
This thread is now closed. Please submit next Slashdot story.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
It's obviously best to simply give up and leave, rather than actually stand up and do something about changing your country.
Van Allen Radiation Belt
Living just to the north of much of the United States, I often offer Stateside friends crash space in my basement in the event that things go completely pear-shaped where they live. Sure, we could be violently annexed in a depressingly short amount of time (and our supplies of uranium, oil, fresh water and lumber might make us a delectable target), but it's a relatively short trip. Besides, beyond Canadian Bacon, there hasn't really been any real effort to add us to the Axis of Evil.
To immigrate to canada you must speak french, eat poutine and KD, and watch HNIC. It snows all year long and sorry we're full!
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Go canucks, habs, and sens!
Amsterdam and you know damn well why.
Mars.
it will take your breath away.
(No, seriously, that's the reason why NOT to go)
If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
Shush you idiot! Don't you understand what parent post is doing? /. the truth! They'll start coming here en-masse!
Don't bloody tell everyone on
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That's easy,
Europe! I know it's not a country, but if you actually want to live abroad (forever, or for a few years to get a taste of a different lifestyle), then the obvious answer is somewhere in Europe.
Why? Because after a couple of years (it varies country to country), you can grab a passport and become an instant protected member of the EU. Now you don't have a choice of one country, but 25, (27 in a few years, and hopefully 28 with Turkey in a few more years).
And you get a choice of countries like Sweden or Denmark (consistently ranked as the most well educated, crime free, peaceful utopias on the planet), liberal countries like Germany or Amsterdam (there is no city in the WORLD like Berlin, it is just the most alive, party party, drug liberal place on Earth, no question), economic tigers like Ireland or the newer Eastern european countries (where jobs are easy to come by and the cost of living is low), or just places where you could live off a few grand and take it easy, like Portugal or Greece.
25 countries, most of them not requiring a second language (For sure, if you move to Scandinavia it'll be you that has the lower standard of English, I moved here 3 years ago and it's embarrassing to have an inferior grasp of my mother-tongue than do the locals). In some countries like Sweden, if you have a girlfriend here you can pick up a passport in 3 years.
And of course, Countries that are not in the EU (such as Switzerland or Norway or Iceland), will still be open to you because of the Schengen agreement.
Good luck! And wherever you decide to move to, just DO IT. It doesn't mean that you never have to go home, it doesn't mean you are running away from America's problems (you can retain your American citizenship and vote from abroad), it just means at a minimum that you are exploring how life in a much more liberal society would be like, and if many more people in the USA decided to live abroad in Europe for a few years of their youth, I very much doubt the country would be experiencing the problems it is having at the moment.
I support everyones right to emigrate if they feel like they need to. Emigrés have also often been the deciding factor in overthrowing an oppressive government, in fact I'd say it's almost a prerequisite to have a strong expat community if you need to overthrow the government. These people need their freedom and ability to work, in order to help raise awareness about what is wrong with the way things are being run, and make changes. Someone being in jail for political reasons cannot really do much to change anything.
Nyhetsankaret.com -- det bÃsta av Sveriges Nyhetssido
It's been sixty years since we stopped invading foreign countries. Professional help needed.
Simple process? Hahahahahaha... I've lived in this cesspit called the Netherlands for almost 10 years. It is if anything an example of exactly how not to run an immigration system.
Yes you can come here if you find a company willing to hire you for a wage that exceeds 43K Euro - not that hard to do if you're any kind of educated professional... but you also walk into an immigration system that is broken beyond anything you can imagine. It's is simply legislated stupidity run by a government minister who hates foreigners with a passion not seen for decades.
If you have the misfortune of owning a passport from a non-EU county other than Canada, The USA, New Zealand, Australia or Japan, then you MUST learn Dutch before you enter the country, you cannot bring your spouse or children unless they also learn Dutch prior to entering the country (no learning Dutch after you arrive is not good enough). After you arrive you must go through an integration course (you're generally exempt if you're from one of the "good' countries listed above) where they teach you all the good things about the Dutch way of life.. like how to flush a toilet (yes they taught me that useful skill), how many wheels a car has (yes that was in my course)... how great and glorious the Dutch people are... how superior they are compared to everyone else... you have to answer important questions like... "what are Dutch men best known for?" and the correct answer being "their trustworthiness"
Trust me... the Netherlands is NOT worth the hassle. Do yourself a favor and go anywhere else in the world but the Netherlands.
I'm leaving here as soon as I can. I'm tired of not being able to have my family live in the same damn country as me. I'm tired of being told by this same Immigration office that if I want to live with my wife, I should just leave the country - and they tell that to their own citizens too.. not just foreigners. I have a close friend who is native Dutch and married to an African woman. The IND here told him there was no chance at all that his wife of 5 years would ever be able to join him here and that he should simply leave the country of his birth if he wanted to be with his wife, or divorce her and marry a good Dutch woman like he should have done in the first place. Yup, the IND here did tell him that... I've read the letter they sent him.
Oh, and yes you can apply for citizenship in the Netherlands but ONLY if you agree to give up your other citizenship. Anyone who tells you otherwise (that it's possible to keep your birth country citizenship) hasn't actually tried to do it recently. Used to be the case that you could retain dual citizenship, but now they won't issue the Dutch citizenship unless you've provided proof that you've legally renounced your previous citizenship. The danger here being... that for 12 years after gaining your Dutch citizenship, the IND can revoke your Dutch citizenship for any reason, and without a court order... so for 12 years your citizenship is at the mercy and whim of the IND... and they have proven that they can and will arbitrarily revoke citizenships of people leaving them stateless for no reason at all.
Don't come to the Netherlands except on vacation, and even then do yourself a favor and give it a miss... go somewhere more interesting.
You would be surprised, but drug use among native Dutchmen is among the lowest in Europe. Mostly German and English tourists use it (when I hear/see an Englishman in Amsterdam, I can smell weed too most of the time). Labdrugs are mostly for export. OK, nothing to be proud of, but if you thought everyone and his sister was an addict, you're wrong.
I mean like, how cool is a country that made their language and alphabet using all those math symbols!!!
I came to Barcelona because I met a Catalan woman who was studying in the US. That was in 2000. As with anywhere, there are pros and cons. I've also picked up some different perspectives on the US living outside of it. To sum up:
.79 euro cents.
living in Barcelona: pros
1. the flow of time is different, slower somehow. people have more time outside of work and seem to make spending it with each other a priority. It's not that the work hours are so different, it's more of a cultural thing- work is usually not the center of one's life, or something they use to define themselves. for instance, you can get to know someone over months and never find out what they do (this may be related to con #1, see below.) most people get a month of vacation each year, plus innumerable long (3 and 4 day weekends). there's a big emphasis on getting together for long, tasty meals and laughing and drinking good wine. we lived in new york for 6 months a few years ago (ending a 1-year stay 6 months early) and I felt like I was running all the time, never had time to be with my family.
2. it's easier to be middle class. healthcare is free, education is cheap, public transit is cheap and excellent (the latter is for barcelona, not necessarily the rest of the country.) we have two little kids (9mos and 5yrs) and no car and it's not an issue. on a salary of us$60k we live well, even with the dollar worth
3. the level of education and knowledge about the world of the average person on the street is pretty high, compared to the US. people have travelled, speak at least two languages (spanish and catalan and usually bad english, and french). the public schools start earlier here (3 yrs old) and are a lot more rigorous than the public schools I went to in washington DC.
3. you are close to a wide range of different cultures, should you like exploring. if you travel the same distance from say, new york to cleveland, you can be in much of north africa, most of western europe, a bunch of eastern europe. turkey is a stone's throw away. even within spain there are seven or so regional languages and cultures that are strikingly different. western europe is slowly mixing and homogenizing due to the european union effort, but it still seems like an adventure every time I get on a train or a plane. maybe this is just because I'm not from here.
cons:
1. the work opportunities and work culture suck. education being cheap or free, you have a lot of really well educated people and not enough jobs requiring their skills. thus employers are used to paying bad salaries, paying late, not treating employees too well, etc. maybe this is a holdover from the years of dictatorship that only ended in the 70s. higher-ups generally fuck with those under them and it's not pleasant. getting a job often has more to do with whom you know or are related to, rather than what you can do (this is a cliche, but it is _really_ true here.) these negatives may be changing slowly, I'm not sure. I came on with a US company and started telecommuting about a year ago and now work for spanish firms only as a consultant, which gives me a certain amount of freedom and leverage.
2. speaking spanish isn't really enough, to really integrate you have to learn some level of catalan (the regional language in which government and local business is conducted), which is sort of like learning portuguese- similar, but still another language (not a dialect). even if it were only spanish one had to learn, it's was a part-time job for a me for a few years to get good at a language. classes, etc. Some people learn can languages faster of course.
on living outside of the US:
one thing you realize is that the US is a good place for work and earning money (if you're educated and posess certain skillsets - if you aren't, it looks like wal-mart, doesn't it?) and that the fact that you can often be evaluated for what you are able to do, rather than your connections, is damn nice.
you also see a lot of things in press that
I'm a native dutch person and I'm very ashamed to say that the parent is more or less accurate about our current immigration policy :-(
There's a chance that it will improve again, but currently there's a (grassroots/astroturf?) fear campaign against foreigners, mostly focussed on islamic cultured or coloured people, but americans as well (your current president isn't helping your reputation!).
My only apology can be that I didn't vote for this government.
I recommend France to anyone looking to make the plunge. It's what I did, and you really can't beat it. Good food, beautiful women, nice people.
I think that the primary differences between France and the U.S. is that the citizens actively participate in their government. There are some things I'm not entirely happy about. Police here can ask you for ID on the streets (though it's never happened to me), and speech is limited in certain ways (hate speech is not protected speech).
In spite of this, though, there isn't the feeling of distrust that exists in the U.S. with regards to the government. Something that impressed me was back during the vote for the European constitution, a book that explained the version of the constitution being voted on jumped to number one on the bestseller list during the weeks/months preceding the vote. It made me proud to be living here.
For the French, the government is THEM, and everyone gets up and shouts when there is something they don't like, You may hear jokes about the French striking, because there is often some group in the news, whether it be the postal service, trains, air traffic controllers, on strike, but I think it's a healthy sign that not only are people working for change, but there's someone on the other side listening. Most strikes are resolved in less than a week, and life goes back to normal.
For Americans looking to make the plunge, you don't need to know any French to get started, if you want to work either in Paris, or in southern France near Nice (Sophia Antipolis is a huge office/science/tech park 20 minutes outside of Nice), but it's good manners to try. When I arrived, I didn't speak a word of French, and have since learned it well enough that I work entirely in French.
Also to note, you normally have to find a French company willing to hire you before you come if you are not a student. However, it's not too hard to find American or International companies who will hire you in the U.S. (pay you in dollars) to work in France.
If you want to date the locals, you will have to learn French. However, as long as your accent isn't too horrific, it's considered cute, and just as American women go gaga when French men say "enchanté" (nice to meet you, or literally enchanted), French women seem to go gaga over the phrase "my pleasure" when used to demur after having done something nice.
I actually am an American living in the Netherlands. I didn't take the time to read the other posts (sorry!) to see if someone else had posted this information but I thought I'd do it anyway since I have a personal interest.
I moved here about 6 months ago with the help of the company I work for. Because of my salary I was allowed to get what is called a "Knowledge Migrant" (kennismigrant) visa. This is a special "fast track" visa that is granted to people who make over 45,000 euros if they are over 30 or 32,600 euros if you under under 30. It allows me to bypass most processes for migration (no requirement for degrees, language classes, etc) but does NOT allow me access to the public health or pension system. Because I was able to follow the kennismigrant procecss, it was fairly simple to get settled in. Also, since I will likely be subject to the 30% tax ruling (an beneficial ruling) I will be able to swap my US drivers license for a Dutch one without taking any tests or classes. Being that Dutch driving classes can run into the 1000s of euros this is a good thing.
Life in the Netherlands is nice and the country is great. They say that 80-90% of the Dutch people speak English which I find to be accurate. I am always able to get around with English and the few Dutch words I know. I am currently enrolled in classes to learn Dutch, but it's an incredibly difficult language because the two languages I already speak fluently (English and Spanish) have virtually no relationship to Dutch besides some common sounding words. The society here is fairly modern and you can get everything you need at any time, except Sunday. Everything is closed on Sundays except for restaurants, which generally open around 4 in the afternoon.
I found this article of particular interest because often time, especially from Americans, I hear things like "This country is stupid and I'd love to leave". After living in a few different countries now, I can honestly say I'd rather live no where else permanently but the US. The Netherlands and the the UK (the other place I spent considerable time) are great places, but it's not home. Life in other countries is very inconvenient (yes, I know, an American comment) and the people are generally much more orderly and nicer in the US. This may seem like a shock to people in the US (and a shock to people outside the US too) but I truly believe that is how it is. Simple things like standing in a line to wait for services or having a quick meal do not exist here. I know that for some people that is a charm, but for me it's an annoyance.
As a final note, I recently sent my entire team (10 Dutch guys) back to the US for training on our product. It was in the SF Bay Area and they all had a great time. The weather was perfect, the people were nice, and they all particular enjoyed Starbucks (the Dutch are huge coffee drinkers). When they all came back, each and every one of them pointedly asked me why the hell I would move here and leave San Francisco. It was nice validation for me and the US and makes me even more anixous to one day return.
I hope this post has given some insight to some people. Until you have truly lived somewhere else you won't understand how lucky we are in the US. Simply visiting a country on vacation does not give you the proper insight. You really need to experience daily life in other parts of the world to understand how good you have it.
Most Americans that I know, myself included, don't measure happiness in wealth. However, wealth is, to a large degree, a measure of your freedom.
In basically any of the situations in which you find yourself during your life, the amount of wealth you have at your disposal determines what options are available to you. You can be perfectly happy living off of the land in a subsistence society, but make no mistake here, choosing to be happy with your circumstances and choosing circumstances that you'll be happy with are two entirely different things. A penniless environmentalist might feel self-righteous waving a cardboard sign at the one annual rally he can afford to drive to, but a rich one can finance a wind farm and perhaps actually make a difference.
How much wealth you want to have is basically a measure of how much you care to tolerate the circumstances of your life being dictated to you.
In Soviet Canuckistan the Beavers eat *you*! Seriously, watchout for the little bastards. They'll smack you with their tails until you fall over and then gnaw off your limbs. You do have to be pretty drunk for them to catch you, so the real danger is when you're new to the country and only just getting used to Canadian beer, which is about 3 times stronger than kentucky bourbon. (Don't even touch Canadian whiskey. Canuckistani airlines sometimes uses the stuff as aviation fuel even though it's murder on the fuel lines.)
You'll also have to get used to keeping a continual guard up against flying hockey pucks. This skill comes naturally to native Canuckistani's who grow up dodging pucks from an early age, but newcomers to the country often suffer a few concusions before they pick up the knack of knowing when 170 grams of vulcanized rubber is rocketing towards the back of their heads at upwards of 150kph. You should also realize that global warming may soon cause a massive housing shortage in Soviet Canuckistan as temperatures rise too high for igloos to survive the summer. Truly, the country is going to become a madhouse when people's 3000sq foot 4 level split igloos with attached garages melt into ponds.
If you do still decide to emmigrate to Canada, be sure to talk to Phil from Vancouver. He can get you set up with your government issue starter snow-shovel and official toque with genuine saskatchewan sealskin bindings and special patriotic pom-pom. (very important) Be sure the pom-pom is firmly attached. If you lose it, rest assured that a mountie will spot it. (Don't even try to run. They always get their man.) Losing your pom-pom will get you exiled to newfieland, which is a fate many consdier worse than death by poutine!
I'm an American currently living in Amsterdam. The immigration policy for kennismigrants (literally knowledge immigrants) couldn't be easier! If you've got good IT skills you'll be welcomed with open arms. Oh, and how about making 30% of your income totally tax-free for the next 10 years? The government will pay for you to take 3 years of free Dutch classes (maybe depending on the gemeente, but Gemeente Zuid Amsterdam certainly does as I'm currently in the program). You just trade your US drivers license in for a Dutch one for with no test required. You can import 2 vehicles per person totally tax-free, and your partner (either gender, married or not) will get a work permit from day 1 as well. I think constantly about how Mexicans are treated back in the US, and I honestly have to say I can't imagine that there is anywhere in the world that welcomes immigrants as well as the Dutch welcome high-tech people with valuable skills.
:)
I've been here 13 months and can't say I've regretted the decision even once. The Dutch are obviously having immigration issues with Muslims not being integrated into the population. But as they tighten the rules for the general population, the rules for IT geeks have gotten much more relaxed.
I work 40 hours a week, I'm home every day before 17:00. I bicycle or take public transport everywhere I want to go, I brought my motorbike over but just for fun. I get 28 days of holiday plus about 8 public and company holidays. Sure I took about a 40% pay cut from the US, but my quality of life has never been higher (pun intended
Correction: Weed is not physiologically addictive, only psychologically.
Plenty of things are physiologically addictive (caffeine, heroin, cocaine, etc). Weed is not.
Psychological addiction is "real" addiction, but:
1. It's normally not as physically/medically dangerous as physiological addiction, because it's only your behaviour and attitudes which change, not your body-chemistry. Psychological addiction won't damage your body - the worst it'll do is make you carry on doing things that might.
2. There's no guarantee that anyone will ever get psychologically addicted to anything. Take heroin regularly for more than a few months and (barring genetic freaks) it's more or less certain you'll get addicted. Play WoW for ten years, and it's entirely likely at the end of it you'll be able to put it down at the end of it and never touch it again.
3. If something's "only" psychologically addictive, we historically don't tend to ban it. Shopping, chocolate, sex and gambling are all psychologically addictive, so banning everything which may cause pysychological addiction is clearly a non-starter.
Because it's "only mental" this tend to be where we draw the line between "banning dangerous activites" and "not being a nanny-state" - ultimately psychological addiction is merely a question of discipline, determination or strength of character, and most people believe they shouldn't be banned from their hobby activity simply because some people aren't adult enough to know their own limits.
Everything in moderation, including moderation itself
To reply to your obviously UNINFORMED response...
"You DON'T need to speak Dutch before being accepted, no matter where you are from."
Sorry bud.. try again. I'm quoting from the Dutch IND website.
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Civic integration examination abroad introduced
As of March 15th migrants wishing to settle in the Netherlands for, in particular, the purposes of marrying or forming a relationship are required to take the civic integration examination abroad.
Many people aged between 16 and 65 who need an authorisation for temporary residence (MVV) in order to come to the Netherlands will first be obliged to complete the civic integration examination abroad in their country of residence. This applies, amongst others, to people who wish to form a family with someone in the Netherlands (for example, through marriage or by forming a relationship) and to religious leaders coming to the Netherlands for employment, such as imams or preachers. In many cases, obtaining the integration examination becomes an additional condition needing to be met before an MVV can be issued.
The examination tests fundamental knowledge of the Dutch language and Dutch society. The examination is held orally, in Dutch, at the Dutch embassy or consulate general in the foreign national's country of residence. Taking the examination will cost approximately 350.
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So.. read that... it DOES matter where you're from, and YOU MUST SPEAK DUTCH BEFORE YOU ENTER THE COUNTRY. That fundamental knowledge test is administered OVER THE PHONE by a computer voice recognition system. If you have any kind of accent, good luck getting it to recognize your attempts at speaking Dutch.
So on your first point, you're WRONG.
On point 2, you're wrong again. Have you actually viewed the video that the IND created for foreigners wishing to come to the NL? Have you? I doubt it. Have you gone to your local Stadshuis and attended the integration courses? I'm not talking the ROC sponsored courses... I'm talking about the MANDATORY course that you have to attend that is administered by the City Council. It's crap. I've gone and done it... and they did teach us important things like.. flushing a toilet and how to make that wonderful Dutch food called stampot. Apparently knowing how to make stampot was more important that learning Dutch history and the place the NL holds in the world community.
On point 3... that was the case years ago... before Rita Verdonk got her grubby hands on the IND. Now it's pretty much impossible to bring a family here. Go get your copy of the Volkskrant... read it.. there is an article in there.. wait, I'll link it for you
http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article360232. ece/Aantal_aanvragen_voor_gezinshereniging_daalt
For those of you who don't read Dutch, the highlights are... Up to the month August this year, 17,000 family reunification applications were filed. In 2005, there were 30,000 applications, and before that, 42,000. Since the implementation of the new law that you must speak Dutch prior to entering the NL, 1384 people have passed the exam.
On point 4... check again... it used to be allowed to have dual nationalities here in the NL... not anymore - as of about 5 years ago actually... the Dutch Immigration law states you MUST renounce your birth citizenship.
Quoting again from the IND website from the section on conditions for citizenship:
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You are prepared to give up your current nationality. If you do not give up your current nationality even though you are supposed to, your Dutch nationality may be revoked.
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Point 5... Wrong again. Geez... did you do any research at all on this? You must be a permanent resident for FIVE years, not six. The 12 year number is NOT bullshit. Again, quoting from the IND website:
=-=-=
Your Dutch nationality may be revoked. This can happen even as long a
Play WoW for ten years, and it's entirely likely at the end of it you'll be able to put it down at the end of it and never touch it again.
You had me up until then.
See the OECD Tax Database for lots of data (in Excel format) on comparative tax rates in various countries. The US is relatively low-tax.
This table shows top marginal tax rate, factoring in social security-type contributions if they are separate. The actual definition for the number is "The all-in (top marginal) tax rate, calculated as the additional central and sub-central government personal income tax, plus employee social security contribution, resulting from a unit increase in gross wage earnings. The all-in rate takes account of the same aspects as the combined rate, but does in addition include employee social security contributions and if they are deductible in central government taxes etc." This table is for 2005.
Hungary 69.5%
Denmark 63.0%
Belgium 59.3%
Sweden 56.6%
Finland 56.5%
Netherlands 52.0%
Poland 51.8%
Norway 51.3%
Greece 49.6%
France 48.6%
Australia 48.5%
Ireland 48.0%
Luxembourg 47.9%
Japan 47.9%
Switzerland 47.9%
Portugal 46.6%
Canada 46.4%
Spain 45.0%
Germany 44.3%
Italy 44.1%
United States 42.7%
Austria 42.7%
Turkey 41.1%
United Kingdom 41.0%
Czech Republic 40.5%
Iceland 40.2%
New Zealand 39.0%
Korea 38.2%
Slovak Republic 29.9%
Mexico 24.6%
WHAT!?! It's 2008 already? Fucking Warcraft...
I had to reply to this. I'm an American living in Noord-Brabant, and have had exactly the opposite experience you apparently have. I moved here to be with my boyfriend under "family formation." I hold an MA degree and have an extensive professional background. I have been here 18 months, and have had nothing but hassles with the Dutch immigration system. The residence and work permits that are legally required to be processed in less than 6 months took 10.5, and when I did receive my first permit, it was good for a whole 6 weeks before I had to have a renewal. The renewal took a further 3.5 months, and I was not allowed to work or even seek work until July of this year (14 months after I moved here.) I am required by law to take Dutch language and integration courses. If I attend less than 80%, I am fined by the government. If I fail to attend, I risk deportation. These aren't facts I picked up from the internet- I was informed of this when I went to my first meeting with the city after (finally) receiving my permits. I could not trade my US license for a Dutch one- though I have been driving since 1988 in the US, I had to take costly lessons, a theory exam, and a practical exam before getting my Dutch drivers' license. The CBR (drivers' branch) informed me of this, and it was long and costly. I am not in IT, and though I have a solid professional background, job agencies tell me that the only jobs they can get me into are at call centers, for about 30% of my last income and less than I lived off of while going through college (gross, not net.) If you're in IT it is a lot easier to deal with the IND, but your company will be your sponsor and if you don't stay with that company, or don't change the paperwork and have your new company become your legal sponsor, you can and will be deported. The man's lucky we have a good relationship, or I would have headed back to the US a long time ago.
As a Muslim, I would definitely prefer to live in a Shari'a country. The problem is that there is none in the whole world.
Paradoxically, the religious rights of Muslims in USA are more protected than in many Muslim countries.
Your Muslim sister can freely wear headcover, veil or burqa anywhere in US, while this right is officially denied in Turkey (schools, parliament) and Tunisia (all public places). In fact, in Tunisia, a policeman might ask her to remove her headcover on the street and make her sign affidavit that she will never where it again.
Your Muslim brother can grow a beard of whatever length (at some point he might be confused with a ZZ top fan), while this right is unofficially denied in Uzbekistan and many other Muslim countries.
Muslim organizations that are banned in Muslim countries such as Egypt, can operate freely in US.
As a Muslim you can read, watch, listen to any Islamic literature, video or CD (a book abd-ul-Wahhab - no problem, Hizb-ut-Tahrir booklet - no problem), while in almost all Central Asia post-Soviet republics you would likely to be targeted by police if they found out that you own this literature.
I am quite often called a Wahhabi, an extremist, a fundamentalist, and generally very-very-very bad person. By whom? In 100% cases - by people who call themselves Muslims. I was never called or referred to as such by my fellow Americans.
There are many bad things that US is doing now to Muslims, like, eh, killing them, for example (Muslims out of the country), by thousands, harassing them in the airports, jailing them for life for being in the wrong place at the wrong time with wrong people (inside the country), referring to them in general (not to confuse with personal attitudes of Americans) as bad people of various flavours (fascists, etc.), supporting dictatorships. On the moral level this poses really tough questions of whether Muslims can live in US and pay taxes.
At this moment I feel like an old Jew from Odessa, who was given freedom of travelling in the dawn of post-Soviet times, went to the travel agency and after incessant queries about wide range of possibilities to travel to different countries picked by rotating the globe model, asked: "Do you have another globe?".
But that is ok. It does not really matter where a Muslim lives as long as he can practice his religion. This world is just a test anyway. My real nationality is Paradise (Muslims believe that all people's souls originated from Paradise), and THAT nationality I would definitely would not like to lose.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Remember, though, we want congress split - so don't go voting all one-party! In America, a divided legislature is a good legislature... they only get things done that have broad support. I can't be the only one that loved the government shutdowns during the Clinton administration. Oh, we should decide which house needs to go Democratic. I guess even if both go, you still have a Republican president... so go vote straight Democrat if you must.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
How many people have been killed by trams since Theo van Gogh was murdered? There's no denying that it was a despicable crime, but one murder shouldn't be the basis (or pretext) for a national policy.
If you'd sent them to some suburb in Virginia or Ohio, or just about any where else in the country apart from the cultural islands of San Francisco and New York, perhaps they would have felt differently about how wonderful the USA was. Essentially San Francisco and New York are the anti-americas.
I can't believe no-one linked to this:
"The world's top cities offering the best quality of life"
Since half this thread debated the Netherlands, I'll point out that the top 12 cities are not in the Netherlands, but in these countries:
- Switzerland
- Canada
- Austria
- New Zealand
- Germany
- Australia
- Denmark
Almost pointless at the end of such a long thread, but hopefully some lucky soul reads this.
SLM
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So this is what it has come to, has it?
You quit.
That's it?
It's over?
You're going to let your country expire because you're too lazy to get up off your asses and take it back? The US is (or was) the perfect example of a country. You were oppressed by some ruling class that wanted to tax you with representing you, take away your rights, and treat you like the lousy commoners you are. Instead of leaving to go to other countries, your ancestors said, "Hey, that's not right. We can do a better job." You overthrew the government and made the biggest, roughest, smartest country that the world has ever known. You invented electric lights, developed flight, split the atom, and you walked on the fucking moon. You showed the world, "This is what we are capable of as human beings when we work together. Man and woman, rich and poor, white and black, side by side."
Yeah, you've had some rough times. A few dickheads have metagamed and bent the rules towards their own sociopathic ends. It's hard to stage a revolt and take back your country when there are laws preventing you from doing so.
But you know what? There were laws against revolting from England, too. I'm sure that your founding fathers would have been hanged (lethal injection not being around at the time) or sent to The Tower (Gitmo not being around at the time either). Yeah, you might die. You might have to go to war. You've done that before - twice, and internally! - so that the side of freedom would prevail.
I am not an American. I think that for the most part, you're a bunch of arrogant assholes. But you know what? You deserve to be arrogant. A large part of the hostility you get from foreigners is jealousy. Yes, jealousy. You're a young country. You're less than 300 years old. How does that make a 3000 year old country look when you completely surpass their technology, human rights, and standard of living? Yeah, they'd look stupid for just sitting around in the desert when they could have been using the tools that were just lying around. You are the most powerful nation in the history of the planet. There is nothing in this universe that you cannot do. All you require is the will to do it.
If you leave, if you give up, that jealousy will turn to hatred - hatred that you threw out one of the best things that's happened to the world. And you are. Yeah, sometimes the US is a belligerent force. You've made some mistakes - and we all know what they are. But when there are earthquakes, the US is there. When there is starvation, the US is there. When there are floods, tsunamis, or hurricanes the US is there. Sometimes you go to the wrong places or have misguided or corrupt leaders. For the most part, you are a force for good. At least, you try to be.
We all make mistakes. Mistakes can be forgiven.
Don't give up.
If you don't like what's happening to your country, then don't quit it. Fight it. Fight to keep your country safe and secure. The only threat to your country comes from within.
Be strong. Stay and fight.
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ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
That's not for others to judge. What you do on your own time with your own money should be your business, not mine. Arguments about what you may do to your financial standing are specious. You can wreck yourself simply by using a credit card in specific ways, or re-financing your house without understanding what you're doing or even by doing all the right things in unfortunate circumstances.
As for "addiction", some people get into compulsive behaviors, some get out again, some don't, some don't get into compulsive behaviors. And I'm not talking about gambling -- I'm talking about everything. There is no underlying rationale that can sensibly be used to erode the liberties of everyone based upon the shortcomings of the few. Of course, using the term "sensibly" along with the concept of legislation is a bit of a cognitive disconnect, for which I apologize.
Liberty is what we are really talking about here, and liberty is on a steep, steep decline in America, subsumed by the "mommy" government's continual attempt to pre-empt anything it wants to one or more levels from it actually occurring, because the underlying rationale these days is that you, an un-indited, non-felon, stand-up citizen, can't be trusted with: guns | votes | free speech | habeus corpus | glassware | drugs | motorcycles | cars | your sexuality | disciplining your children | etc...
Well, as one wag famously put it, you're getting the government you deserve. Good and hard.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.