Slashdot Mirror
If Not America, Then Where?
Wellington Grey asks: "Often during our heated political discussions on slashdot, several people will mention their desire to leave the country. As an American living in England, which sees much the same problems as the US, I often wonder where these Americans would go. So, I pose two questions for the restless: 1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?"
The Netherlands. The fact that I couldn't become a citizen and I can't speak the language stops me. Oh yeah, plus I like America still. :-)
Yay, I have a sig.
I always kinda liked the idea that I get to live in the future just by staying alive.
Infuriate left and right
It's obviously best to simply give up and leave, rather than actually stand up and do something about changing your country.
In almost every case it comes down to visas and border controls that stop humans freely moving around their planet. On the surface it looks like a good idea, but it's absolutely ridiculous that a human shouldn't be able to freely roam the public spaces of their own planet!
:)
I'd rather go live out in the nowhereness of Canada or Australia or something and get out of the way, but there's no hope for any of that in the near future as countries have lots of quirky requirements, laws, and rules for gaining entry
If it were not for the money, language, and responsibility issues, I'd move to a Scandanavian country in a heartbeat.
As it is, I believe that America is exporting its culture at an incredible rate, and the best way to stop what I see as an unbelievably bad world situation is by attempting to modify it from within the States. I'm not doing a great job, but just being here and dissenting my little piece has more of an impact than living outside the country and bitching to other people that aren't there about how much my country sucks.
I lived overseas, and found that there were a few things true about me personally - 1) wherever I went, I was the same person. Ergo, I was pissed off and unhappy because that's what I started out as. I've attempted to change that. 2) wherever I went, I was followed by the influence of the things I had left the country to avoid, one way or another. Thus I am back here to attempt to modify the things about both me and the world around me that irked me so much when I was not living in the States. I don't know if I'll manage to change the world enough to make any sort of difference should I leave again, but by the time I can afford to leave again for any extended period of time, I will be able to say that I'm at least trying to alleviate certain negative influential factors that result from our social structure.
My little site.
We do everything America does, only we do a worse job, less efficiently, and with none of the individual rights in our Constitution* that you enjoy in the United States which allow the courts to pull the executive and congress back into line every now and then.** Although we have no president or equivalent, our parliament is a virtual dictatorship at present and crossing the floor on the basis of principle is almost entirely unheard of and considered to be little better than treason. We lack media diversity, and general awareness of political and human rights issues is virtually non-existent in the wider populace even by US standards.
In addition we are extremely poorly placed in relation to the most likely theatre of any future world war, and we have large quantities of uranium and natural gas which makes us an important strategic target.
* disclaimer, before someone who knows about Australian law attacks - we arguably have freedom of religion and a right to vote, and a limited right to freedom of 'political' speech, but all can be infringed on by federal laws with a legitimate other purpose
** yeah yeah, I know how politicised the courts are, but every now and then you DO get a decision like Hamdan in which the Supreme Court clobbers the executive for overstepping the line
Read Pynchon.
That's easy,
Europe! I know it's not a country, but if you actually want to live abroad (forever, or for a few years to get a taste of a different lifestyle), then the obvious answer is somewhere in Europe.
Why? Because after a couple of years (it varies country to country), you can grab a passport and become an instant protected member of the EU. Now you don't have a choice of one country, but 25, (27 in a few years, and hopefully 28 with Turkey in a few more years).
And you get a choice of countries like Sweden or Denmark (consistently ranked as the most well educated, crime free, peaceful utopias on the planet), liberal countries like Germany or Amsterdam (there is no city in the WORLD like Berlin, it is just the most alive, party party, drug liberal place on Earth, no question), economic tigers like Ireland or the newer Eastern european countries (where jobs are easy to come by and the cost of living is low), or just places where you could live off a few grand and take it easy, like Portugal or Greece.
25 countries, most of them not requiring a second language (For sure, if you move to Scandinavia it'll be you that has the lower standard of English, I moved here 3 years ago and it's embarrassing to have an inferior grasp of my mother-tongue than do the locals). In some countries like Sweden, if you have a girlfriend here you can pick up a passport in 3 years.
And of course, Countries that are not in the EU (such as Switzerland or Norway or Iceland), will still be open to you because of the Schengen agreement.
Good luck! And wherever you decide to move to, just DO IT. It doesn't mean that you never have to go home, it doesn't mean you are running away from America's problems (you can retain your American citizenship and vote from abroad), it just means at a minimum that you are exploring how life in a much more liberal society would be like, and if many more people in the USA decided to live abroad in Europe for a few years of their youth, I very much doubt the country would be experiencing the problems it is having at the moment.
1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?
Easy. 1) New Zealand, 2) Money (or the lack thereof).
If you think hard, probably two things are keeping people to go where they think (or know) their lives would be better (for them, since this is as much subjective as objective):
- people: family, friends, neighbors, you name it, people can become very attached to others,
- financial resources: if you have to work 10-16 hours a day for living, paying mortages, etc., schooling your kids, its not that easy to just stand up and leave.
Until the average level of living throughout the planet won't reach a certain level, most people will just be stuck to places, all their lives long, give or take a few travels.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
I support everyones right to emigrate if they feel like they need to. Emigrés have also often been the deciding factor in overthrowing an oppressive government, in fact I'd say it's almost a prerequisite to have a strong expat community if you need to overthrow the government. These people need their freedom and ability to work, in order to help raise awareness about what is wrong with the way things are being run, and make changes. Someone being in jail for political reasons cannot really do much to change anything.
Nyhetsankaret.com -- det bÃsta av Sveriges Nyhetssido
As a Scandinavian who just visit USA occationally I guess I can tell why I hesitate to move there... From the European horizon USA looks really cool. You have the greatest companies, the greatest sports champs (except in soccer), you are the center of entertainment, modern culture and research. You have... so very much.
However, when in USA I feel that I am so far away from everything. Manhattan is the exception. In LA I have an hour in a car to anything. In Las Vegas it takes a day to get anywhere else.
So even if I am closer to many things when in USA, there are fewer things that I am really close to (walking distance). If it takes 5h or more to get there by car, the Atlantic ocean doesnt make a huge difference anyway.
Disclaimer: not actually American, though I did live there from 1981 until 1988.
Not always the easiest place to live, but rewarding a lot of the time: Southern Africa. And I am not referring to "We'd like to be State 51 please, if only you'll bring back the 1980s" South Africa, I am referring to southern sub-saharan Africa.
Whether you're here on a volunteer basis or you have a 'proper job' (like myself), there is a definite need for clued-up tech people to share their knowledge, and to help pull this place out of its rut. No need to be a charity: I get a salary and everything...
And do your research: not all sub-saharan countries are corruption-plagued dictatorships. Well, no more than the US anyway ...
Most of what you say is true, but none of it really addresses my post. I'm well aware that socialism provides better average economic circumstances in return for less economic freedom. That is really the whole point of socialism, because it stems from a philosophy that tips the valuation scale towards socioeconomic safety as opposed to socioeconomic freedom.
My point was that many Americans do not value wealth so much as they place much more value on socioeconomic freedom as opposed to socioeconomic safety than the ggp and apparently you do. It's true that there are higher rates of violent crimes in many areas on the US (not where I grew up, even though it was a very poor area where everyone owned guns (all hunters)), but it's also true that, if I so choose, I can exercise far greater control over my socioeconomic standing than someone from a more socialist country.
Do you really pay lower taxes? By the time you add up federal, social security, unemployment, state and local taxes you are probably paying close to 50% if not more. Add to that things like health insurance, tolls, and thousands of fees that you pay for services that other countries provide for free and you may actually be worse off.
Oh I forgot to add the extra weeks of paid vacation to that mix too.
evil is as evil does
Canada doesn't hate the states.
There is a habit of saying "at least we're not like the states" but in fact in many regards we have the same bad habits as they have [e.g. polution, right wing movements, etc]. I think if Canadians hated the americans so much we wouldn't be visiting them so much.
That said, I wouldn't mind a big influx of Americans to Canada. Two words: "Melting Pot".
Canada prides itself on the pluralism and "mixed salad" style of immigration. You know what that gives you? Places like Toronto. Where none of the residents share any common values and the quality of life takes a sharp nose dive. I lived there for a while and honestly it's like you moved to another country. I'm all for respecting other cultures, but this is Canada, not a gathering place for everyone and their brother who want to change the land from under me.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
When we "said we were sorry" (see parent), we didn't know just how sorry we would become.
And sorrier still if you fat techie douchebags don't get up and vote two weeks from now.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I'm not so sure you're correct. The average federal income tax rate is, indeed, around 12%, though for working professionals it is likely closer to 14-16%, and for executives (those making 200k or more per year) it is around 25% (check the tax returns of politicians...they bounce between 21% and 26%, depending on their deductions). What isn't mentioned is that there's a 15% tax for social security and medicare. If you're a wage slave, you only see half of it, but your employer is paying the other half, and that affects your salary. Health care and other benefits do too. If you lose 30% of your "income" to taxes and benefits before the first line on your paycheck, is it really part of your taxes/salary?
Anyway, I'm not giving up on the US. It's filled with idiots, and there are "better" social support systems elsewhere, but if you're willing to take responsibility for your own future, it's the place to be. I plan on never seeing a dime from Social Security, so I invest for my retirement. I pay for my own healthcare, so I get to choose what level of care I get. I don't think the general human population can handle being on their own, or perhaps it's simply that having large social nets to fall back on makes standing by yourself seem too hard.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
You can exercise greater control over your socioeconomic standing? Honestly? (no, really, I want to know).
Yes. Most of America's millionaires are first-generation rich.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
Non-correlation does not necessarily disprove causality, but it is a strong argument. (Stronger than correlation implying causality.) For numerous examples, consider the book "Why Things Bite Back". Here's a hypothetical: assume that helmets save lives. Specifically, if you're in an accident the helmet will "cause" you to live 90% of the time. Also assume that otherwise you live 0% of the time. (These numbers are completely made up, so just accept them for the sake of this example.) Now, also assume that people only wear a helmet when they're driving on certain roads, and that these roads have a 50% chance of resulting in an accident. Other roads have a 5% chance of resulting in an accident. So, in this purely made up example, every time you drive you have a 5% chance of death when you wear a helmet, and a 5% chance of death when you don't wear a helmet. No correlation, even on the assumption of causation.
Now, I want to repeat that non-correlation is a strong argument against causation. It just doesn't disprove it.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
I can't fathom where you get off with this assessment, so I have to assume you're not very well-travelled and you base your entire opinion on what you see on CNN. I think it's quite asinine, not to mention insulting to Europeans, to assume that every non-American is incapable of recognizing that politicians don't always lead as expected or represent the will of the vast majority. Do you think their politicians have a 100% approval rating?
I have yet to visit a European country where the people weren't open and inviting, even after learning I was an American. In fact, most Europeans are quite the opposite of what you described. When we lived in Italy, most of the locals were excited to talk about everything (With French and Spanish being so popular in US schools, I think Italians are especially excited and supportive when we attempt their language). When my father visited relatives in Bavaria and mentioned to a local that he was born in a nearby, small town, he couldn't have paid for drinks that night if he wanted to. A few years ago, my brother spent a week in Norway, skiing, drinking, and hanging out with complete strangers. A co-worker went on several, recent trips to Germany, Austria, France, and Switzerland. The only political conversation she had was with a couple Canadians who were only asking if her nationality had been an issue. Obviously, it isn't.
I think even the Middle East assessment isn't completely fair. Ask some of the US soldiers and they'll tell you a large portion of the people are happy to have them, even if they won't yell that fact from a street corner. At the same time, I have friends in Jordan who have told us that it's really not a good time to visit, so I'll take them at their word.
As an American living in Canada, this listing of tax rates is still not an apples to apples comparison. For example the US and Canada top rates:
Canada 46.4%
United States 42.7%
for less that 4%, I get free healthcare in Canada.
And don't forget, for all the American's who do want to leave the US, there are still US taxes to pay (unless you renounce one's US citizenship) as the US taxes its citizens regardless of where they live (which in the end just increases one's tax burden).
So this is what it has come to, has it?
You quit.
That's it?
It's over?
You're going to let your country expire because you're too lazy to get up off your asses and take it back? The US is (or was) the perfect example of a country. You were oppressed by some ruling class that wanted to tax you with representing you, take away your rights, and treat you like the lousy commoners you are. Instead of leaving to go to other countries, your ancestors said, "Hey, that's not right. We can do a better job." You overthrew the government and made the biggest, roughest, smartest country that the world has ever known. You invented electric lights, developed flight, split the atom, and you walked on the fucking moon. You showed the world, "This is what we are capable of as human beings when we work together. Man and woman, rich and poor, white and black, side by side."
Yeah, you've had some rough times. A few dickheads have metagamed and bent the rules towards their own sociopathic ends. It's hard to stage a revolt and take back your country when there are laws preventing you from doing so.
But you know what? There were laws against revolting from England, too. I'm sure that your founding fathers would have been hanged (lethal injection not being around at the time) or sent to The Tower (Gitmo not being around at the time either). Yeah, you might die. You might have to go to war. You've done that before - twice, and internally! - so that the side of freedom would prevail.
I am not an American. I think that for the most part, you're a bunch of arrogant assholes. But you know what? You deserve to be arrogant. A large part of the hostility you get from foreigners is jealousy. Yes, jealousy. You're a young country. You're less than 300 years old. How does that make a 3000 year old country look when you completely surpass their technology, human rights, and standard of living? Yeah, they'd look stupid for just sitting around in the desert when they could have been using the tools that were just lying around. You are the most powerful nation in the history of the planet. There is nothing in this universe that you cannot do. All you require is the will to do it.
If you leave, if you give up, that jealousy will turn to hatred - hatred that you threw out one of the best things that's happened to the world. And you are. Yeah, sometimes the US is a belligerent force. You've made some mistakes - and we all know what they are. But when there are earthquakes, the US is there. When there is starvation, the US is there. When there are floods, tsunamis, or hurricanes the US is there. Sometimes you go to the wrong places or have misguided or corrupt leaders. For the most part, you are a force for good. At least, you try to be.
We all make mistakes. Mistakes can be forgiven.
Don't give up.
If you don't like what's happening to your country, then don't quit it. Fight it. Fight to keep your country safe and secure. The only threat to your country comes from within.
Be strong. Stay and fight.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
See here's the problem: You seem to want a country that enforces YOUR viewpoint on everyone. When you say you are interested in a country that has Shari'a Law, you seem to mean that you want it as you understand and would choose to practise it. That's understandable, but the problem is that barring you running the show, you aren't going to find a place that everyone agrees with your views. I'm not an Islamic scholar and I can't claim to understand all the intricate differences but even my cursory level of research has revealed some major differences in opinion as to what Shari'a Law ought to encompass and how it ought to be enforced.
So, if you want to live your life according to the beliefs you have, the best bet for that is a nation that is tolerant of all beliefs. While they won't force others to conform to what you believe is right, they won't tend for force you to conform to what they think is right.
There's really no paradox here. If you go to a country like Iran that's run by Ayatollah, well you get THEIR version of Islam which might not mesh with your own. You also tend to run in to the whole "All power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely," thing. If you go to a country like this US that's very free you are going to see all kinds of people doing all kinds of things you don't like, but they aren't going to tell you that you have to join in for the most part.