Sony Defends Rumble Loss

Eurogamer reports on comments from Sony defending the loss of rumble in the SIXAXIS controller. "'I think the caveat to that statement always has to be based on the fact that when we make a pad, we're making maybe 150, 200 million of them,' Harrison explains. 'So it has to be done at a price, and it has to be done at a volume that fits our production requirements. I think the decision that we've made to build in the SIXAXIS functionality, and Bluetooth wireless, and great battery life, and all the other functionality that comes with it, far outweighs the chatter that we're getting on vibration. And, it's incredibly light! Just pick it up!'"

Comments

A Poor Tradeoff

[miyako]

I think that sony really made a poor tradeoff with losing rumble and adding the sixaxis thing (though it's actually only THREE axises (axies?) being that +/-X is one axis, +/-Y is an axis, and +/-Z is an axis, but anyway...). The thing about rumble support is that game pads have had it for so long now that (for me anyway) I don't notice when it's there, but I certainly notice when it's missing.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff

[UbuntuDupe]

Of course it was stupid to remove rumble, and of course it wasn't necessary to support the motion sensing. Sony's just trying to make the best of bad deal. The rumble patent is probably the one part of the PS3 development/marketing on which I actually sympathize with them. The patent was total crap. Way to broad, way too obvious. We should be thanking Sony for trying to fight patent, rather than rewarding Immersion through settling.

Everything else Sony has done is boneheaded (going for overpriced design, trying to impose BluRay through the PS3, arrogant statements, E3 screwups, poor production management), but on the rumble patent, I do feel for them.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff

[Fozzyuw]

Everything else Sony has done is boneheaded (going for overpriced design, trying to impose BluRay through the PS3, arrogant statements, E3 screwups, poor production management), but on the rumble patent, I do feel for them.

I have to agree, the Rumble feature, while I feel is an important tool for gaming, would not attribute much to poor sales alone, if they happen. I would predict that it's all about price point, no matter how 'great' a system is. Just look at the NeoGeo.

Actually, I also believe it's not going to be just the high price but also the low price that's going to hurt it. From talking to some of my friends at local game stores, I 'hear' that there's some 'talk' about people just getting it for a cheap Blu-Ray player and these people have little interest in actual gaming. It's going to be quite deceiving to 3rd party companies. Sony will be able to post signs that their consoles are having 'strong' sales, but a percentage of those sales will never play a game because their being purchased as movie players by 'early adopter' enthusiasts.

I'm just worried that their price point is going to kill them for 1) being too high for gamers and 2) being too low for Blue-Ray players, making some sales used less or not at all for gaming.

It's the games that sell the system, not the system that sells the games. If games don't sell on the PS3 (due to the reasons cited above), Sony will have to dump a lot of money into building a ladder to get out of their hole (which will get deep the more ladder they have to build).

Cheers,
Fozzy

Re:A Poor Tradeoff

[Hillgiant]

Rotation is distinctly different from translation.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff

[Dolohov]

No, the rotational axes are indeed axes in their own right. You cannot back out yaw, pitch, and roll from X,Y,Z accelerometers. Thus, there really are six axes here.

Re:A Poor Tradeoff

[Dolohov]

Ah, I think I see your misunderstanding. We're talking force vectors on a rigid body here, and while the terminology is the same as in general vector mathematics, the application is not quite.

Let's assume that our object is a sphere 1 unit in radius, centered on the origin. Applying a force [0, 1, 0] (a unit vector along the Y axis) centered on the origin will cause the sphere to accelerate along the Y axis without turning. However, applying the same force at the edge of the sphere where it intersects the positive X axis will cause the sphere to start spinning counter-clockwise (or yaw-ing) about the Z-axis, without moving from its spot at the origin. If I apply the same force where the sphere intersects the positive Z axis, the sphere will start spinning about the X-axis (I can't remember if that's roll or pitch. Roll, I think)

This means that in order to describe ANY acceleration of the object, you need a three dimensional vector to represent the force, AND a three-dimensional vector to represent where that force is applied relative to the object's center of mass. Ergo, six axes.

Since when?

[CaseM]

Since when is "light" a selling point for controllers? Most sites that have hands-on experience with the PS3 mark that one in the negative column.

Talk about desparate...

same ol same ol

[Thansal]

nothing to see here, move along.

Same reasons stated every time some one brings up why thy didn't include both "well, uhh, we can't! umm, money, and weight, umm, yah"

I still like the 150-200 MILLION units being made. because each PS3 realy needs 150-200 controllers.

Chatter?

[copponex]

When widespread customer outcry is "chatter," you're losing sight of what your role is as a company. Has anyone reminded Sony that the source of this "chatter" is also where they get their income?

Holy crap

[steveo777]

So, they're making 150 million to 200 million controllers for 800 thousand PS3's that may or may not be out on Nov 19? Lessee here. I don't know about anyone else, but I simply won't be needing 1500-2000 controllers for the PS3 that I would theorehtically purchase.

Oh, and Microsoft and Nintendo have rumble and great battery life. I'm not worried. What I might be compelled to worry about is randomly exploding controllers, but maybe that's why they expect everyone to have so many spares. Does make multiplayer seem a lot more interesting, though.

Re:Holy crap

[Tokerat]

So, they're making 150 million to 200 million controllers for 800 thousand PS3's that may or may not be out on Nov 19? Lessee here.

...because, you know, after Nov. 19th, all units will have been sold, and they'll never need to make a PS3 ever again.

Rumble not that important

[lunch_box4]

I've never really found the rumble feature to be that important. My Wavebird controller for the Gamecube doesn't have rumble and I've found it to be much more fun to use than the standard wired controllers.

Yeah, mark my words!

[Shados]

So it has to be done at a price, and it has to be done at a volume that fits our production requirements.

Yeah, exactly the strategy they used with the PS3....oh...wait.

Weight and design philosophy

[7Prime]

"'And, it's incredibly light! Just pick it up!'"

This is exactly what I'm concerned about, there is such a thing as having a controller that's "too light". After a point, it just feels flimsy and cheap, and becomes a constant reminder that it's a toy. The Dualshock controllers were quite good, just the right amount of weight, any lighter, and it begin to feel cheap. I do use Wavebird GCN controllers, but those are a little larger, giving them a bit more weight than the SIXAXIS will probably have, and I still wish (for all their greatness) they had a little more heft to them.

The PS3 is a $600 console, it's being marketted as a media entertainment center, and as something slightly more sophisticated than JUST a game console (supposedly), having a really light-weight controller is sort of going against their overarching image.

Which brings me to another point. What is Sony's overarching philosophy for this console? They don't seem to have a very unified idea in mind: art-deco looking console, utilitarian interface, lightweight controllers with motion sensors, with an Xtreme Gen Y sounding name... all these things really don't fit together to create a unified whole. If it has no unique feel in mind, then why should I buy it over the other guys' consoles? Nintendo spent YEARS developing a finely crafted gestalt that followed their unique philosophy on gaming, so much that the Wii almost has a living, breathing, personality. Microsoft a bit less so, but they've at least met the status quo in terms of having a unified feel (it's just not that original). But the PS3 just seems schizophrenic, it has no gestalit. It's as if each piece was designed completely independantly and the thing was just thrown together. Seriously, why should I get excited about something that was built with such an unprofessional looking attitude in design philosophy? While Joe Public may not be analyzing it like this, it comes across, subliminaly, as being unsure of itself and unable to deliver a really solid feel that will win people over.

Re:Rumble is a gimmick

[TheBlackSwordsman]

"The rumble feature in game controllers is a gimmick and always has been a gimmick. It is useless and a waste of battery life. Thank goodness it's being tossed out of most next-gen controller designs."

If by "most next-gen controller designs", you mean "Sony's next-gen controller design", then I guess you're correct. However, both Microsoft and Nintendo are still doing rumble and wireless. Nintendo's even doing the whole "tilt" thing that Sony slapped into their controller at the last minute. So tell me again why Sony's leaving rumble out?

Defend, but successfully?

[MeanderingMind]

[quote]"'I think the caveat to that statement always has to be based on the fact that when we make a pad, we're making maybe 150, 200 million of them,' Harrison explains. 'So it has to be done at a price, and it has to be done at a volume that fits our production requirements. I think the decision that we've made to build in the SIXAXIS functionality, and Bluetooth wireless, and great battery life, and all the other functionality that comes with it, far outweighs the chatter that we're getting on vibration. And, it's incredibly light! Just pick it up!'"[/quote]

When Sony was first asked why rumble was missing, they told us it was technically impossible/too difficult to do with the new tilt sensing. That wasn't infeasible, but highly disappointing. Then the lid was blown off of that.

Now Sony has changed their tune. It's a matter of price. The cost of $.01 over 150 million controllers is non-trivial. That seems feasible, why didn't you say that in the first place? Why does your controller cost $50 when you're saving us money? How is it that Nintendo's more advanced controller that features rumble, motion sensing, and even a speaker is $10 less than your controller until you start buy an addon which also features motion sensing? (Microsoft, you've got some explaining to do too)

The waffling about this doesn't alleviate the suspicion that Sony remove the rumble because of the lawsuit against them. We're not convinced you're trying to save us money when you're charging $500 to $600 for your system, in excess of $60 for games, and $50 for controllers. The original suspicion, that you're too arrogant and sour to suck it up and pay someone else for their proprietary technology, sadly fits the facts far better than anything you've told us yet. Given that the settlement for the lawsuit was around $100 million for years worth of controllers and games it doesn't strike me that the cost of working with Immersion is really so terrible a thing.

This isn't a defense, it's an excuse. I've never gotten the impression from any Sony representative that they are actually sad to see rumble go. The words of Sony aren't the sad, but necessary statements that game and hardware designers make as reality defeats cool concepts and ideas. They are distractions and red herrings from a ugliness Sony had hoped we wouldn't see.

Honesty will get you a lot farther than lies "chatter"ing through your teeth.

not a big deal for me

[rayde]

I've personally been using the wireless logitech controller for PS2 for some time now, and i basically never use the rumble feature as it is. I keep it turned off, and my battery life is phenomenal. however, i don't agree that Sony should have completely removed the feature. i won't be surprised to see later versions of the controller offer rumble as an option, and games will be able to support it if they wish.

with enough customer grumbling, sony will eventually get rumbling.

(wow that was horrible :-P)

Easy Example: PCs and CounterStrike

[EXTomar]

People complain about the loss of rumble but I've always seen it as a gimmick that was only effectively pulled off in a few games. The rest of it was just a toy not necessarily to the actually game or, even more importantly, the game mechanics. How do I know this? Because most games on the PC never bothered with it.

Take a look at gaming on the PC side and it is devoid of rumble and trust me when I say Logitech and Microsoft would like nothing better than to sell you something that "rumbles" especially a gamer thinks they need but it never took off. I don't think World of Warcraft needs rumble and if CounterStrike players don't notice it and The Sims can't use it effectively, just how "important" is rumble? These are some of the most played, highest selling games in the history of gaming running rings around some of the best console titles and yet none of them are eager to have rumble. I guess the PC side of gaming has been missing out on...something.

So what are these games that really need rumble? The only reason to keep rumble in would have been "it is cheap". With Immersion, there is really no surprise it is gone.

Lack of Rumble is not a feature

[jchenx]

Once again, we have someone who doesn't like feature X and is glad that it's not in system Y, making it seem like its a "good thing" that the company decided to do it that way.

That's a load of BS.

Reading through the comments, it's obvious that there are many people that like it, and many people that don't. And you know what? They all know how to turn it off in the settings. Simple enough.

Now you can argue that it should be off by default, but most folks LIKE the feature. So the majority overrule your personal preference. It would be nice to have a personal setting that you could make on the console that remembers to turn off rumble across all games though. But to say that not having the option is a "good thing"? That's just stupid.

Re:Rumble is a gimmick

[RealErmine]

On many games I will agree that the rumble feature is a tacked-on gimmick. Usually, it is a used to physically "punish" the player for receiving damage. However, one well-reviewed game that used rumble effectively as an integral gameplay feature was Rockstar's Table Tennis. There are no visual or audio cues to tell when you are aiming your shot out of bounds. It is done completely with the intensity of the rumble in the gamepad. This is an extremely intuitive use of the rumble feature that allows a minimal UI, reduces screen clutter and eliminates audio cues that don't belong in a simulation game. Certainly this is one game that cannot be ported to the PS3 directly without sacrificing an excellent design decision or requiring a third party controller with cludged-together rumble support.

After putting thought into it, doesn't it seem strange that many of us want a feature that is usually used to simulate pain? At least some developers have given some thought to using rumble in new ways.

Rumble is inherently different from other feedback

[TriezGamer]

On a PC, you really don't see the major benefit of rumble feedback. On a console, rumble feedback seems rather trivial at times too, however rumble feedback used properly in a single-player game can really add to the effect. Sadly, few games use it terribly well. The key, however, is in multi-player games, and ones that don't utilize split-screen even more-so. Rumble feedback is the ONLY feedback a console can give that is specific to ONE player in an offline multi-player environment.

Re:Sony thinks they're cute:

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple: it's virus, virii, viriii, viriv, virv, virvi ...

Re:Give us functions we don't need instead of rumb

[kinglink]

Sixaxis != Wii's motion detection. Six axis is an attempt to bring it however it was put into the system late because they had to do something to replace Rumble. Not because it is better then rumble.

Yes wireless is important but Blue tooth again isn't something you need to trade for rumble. 360 has wireless AND rumble. Wii has wireless, motion detection and rumble. See where this is going? Sony is missing a valuable piece. It might not be important but acting like it's a good thing they skipped rumble and ignoring the fact that they were infringing on a copyright isn't smart, it's silly.

Don't believe sony's hype, if they wanted they could do rumble, sixaxis, bluetooth, battery life, and probably thrown in some other random technology and made it work easily. But according to them they had to get rid of rumble to make the other three available? Baloney.

Sony is currently scared shitless because people arn't killing each other to get their PS3, this is their big push to sell what they don't have, to make people go "I really need a PS3" the problem is people arn't acting like that because unlike with the ps2, we have 360s available, we have a completely new system for games on the other side, and the Sony brass has been acting so insane people arn't listening. And yet there's still very few exclusive games for it, and most of them arn't impressing people.

Re:Different but good

[Aladrin]

"I simply do not see how one can be excited for motion control ideas in the Wii and not in the PS3, even if there are differences in what motion can be detected."

That's exactly why one can be excited about the Wii and not the PS3's motion sensing. The whole concept is different.

The Wii offers a 'wand' that allows usage like every-day object. Golf clubs, tennis rackets, swords, guns, etc. You get more of a feeling that you are in the game.

The PS3 version allows... Uhh... Oh wait, they haven't really said what it allows. So we have a standard controller that can tell when you move or tilt it. Hmm... Boxing? Nope. Golf? Nope. Football? Nope. Swords, guns, weapons? Nope.

I can only think of 2 things that might interest me with Sony's. Flight simulation. And first person shooters. I think it could actually excel at FPS's. You run up to the corner and you want to learn around and take a look. With a standard controller, you press into the wall and holding a button... Not exactly realistic. With the PS3, you just run up to the corner, and then lean the controller over at an angle towards the direction you want to peer. Like magic. Of course, the Wii could do exactly the same thing with the left hand nun-chuk, while the right hand gets the run ready for when you jump out and start shooting.

Hmm... Yeah, can't imagine why we'd like one controller over another.

Re:You have not thought things through

[Aladrin]

Yeah, but the way Wii does it is smooth, where I can't see how the PS3 is going to be smooth like that.

It's obvious how to hold the Wiimote to make it act like a golf club. But how to hold the sixaxis? This is just a dual-shock-shaped controller. Do I hold it by one of the 2 handles and hope I don't accidentally let it go, since I can't really get my hand all the way around it? Do I have to let go of it completely and then re-grip it in the middle? Do I hold it like normal, where the flexibility of the human body prevents free range of movement?

Football... I can see some use there, but still not as much as the Wiimote/nunchuk. The new football for Wii excites even me, and I -hate- football games.

Swords? You mean, like, twist it to swing the sword? My hands don't do that. If you mean move it side to side... that's a bit complicated, when you consider you also have 2 analog sticks and several buttons to deal with at the same time. Nowhere NEAR as much fun or as smooth as the Wiimote.

Oddly, guns are the one thing I COULD possibly see as working. Since you hold the controller in front of you anyhow, the sixaxis could easily be used to control the sight of a gun onscreen. The Wiimote allows gun games without the sight onscreen, though... And I prefer it that way.

I admit I'm a bit hyped about Nintendo for the first time in many years. And it's currently en vogue to hate Sony, especially considering they just killed one of my favorite online stores. But I cannot logically find how the sixaxis is even close to comparing to the Wiimote.