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Wave-Powered Desalination

dptalia writes, "Scientists think they've found a way to harness the energy of waves to desalinate salt water. Currently desalination is an energy-intensive process, but this new design harnesses the renewable energy of waves to produce fresh water. Many countries depend on desalinated water to support their populations, and this invention could lower the cost of water generation." Production versions of the "desalination ducks" would be about 10 meters in diameter and 20 meters long. Each would supply water for more than 20,000 people.

184 comments

  1. Wow. by NerveGas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    2,000 cubic meters per day of desalinated water from each unit. That's over 350 gallons per minute. Impressive!

    --
    Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
    1. Re:Wow. by Rudisaurus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I thought so too. So why do they always have to find some nay-sayer -- this Nidal dude, for instance -- who has an obvious axe to grind and is therefore completely blind to the possibilities? Scale has nothing to do with it; it's cost per unit fresh water produced that matters -- and in places where energy is scarce or infrastructure is lacking, the desalination ducks sound like an awesome solution.

      Plus -- they won't plug off the way RO membranes do. :)

      --
      licet differant, aequabitur
    2. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Why do they always have to find some nay-sayer -- this Nidal dude, for instance -- who has an obvious axe to grind and is therefore completely blind to the possibilities?

      I couldn't agree with you more. They keep telling me that my perpetual motion machine will never work, but I know that I have the calculations correct! And after I patent my time travel machine and my warp engine designs I'll definitely win a Nobel prize!

      I hate those people with such small minds thinking only about facts and the truth. I know how things really work, I feel it in my gut.

    3. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hello Nidal! Is that how you're powering your membrane desalinators?

      Get some sleep, buddy!

    4. Re:Wow. by grozzie2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It would be more impressive if it didn't require the water to be pre-heated to 100C. I think it's safe to say, pour boiling seawater into just about anything with some condenser tubes setup, and you'll get fresh water out of the condenser. It appears to be insulated with Impossiblium, you know, the stuff that'll allow it to maintain internal temperature for a month while it works, with no heat input. I'm willing to bet, read the fine print in the marketing manuals, and you will find the Mark II version will have double the production if you power it with snake oil too....

    5. Re:Wow. by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1
      That's over 350 gallons per minute. Impressive!
      I'm sorry, but I don't understand that there new fangled metric money. What's that in Hogsheads per fortnight?
      --
      It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
    6. Re:Wow. by orangeyoda · · Score: 1

      134,400 Hogsheads per Fortnight.

    7. Re:Wow. by name*censored* · · Score: 1
      It didn't say in the article, but if I thought of it then they would have... they probably keep the water heated by solar power (either directly heating it up, or with solar panels, first option better only if it's consistently sunny); and the figures they gave (a month) account for that. Or perhaps they use the energy from the waves to help heat the water, and the energy slowly disperses over a month, but that's inefficient.

      It's all a guess, but they would be insane not to use solar power to help keep the water heated (hell all they need is a $2 magnifying glass lens).
      --
      Commodore64_love: I don't comprehend people who're so frightened of death that they'll bankrupt themselves to stay alive
    8. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know what crazy kind of Hogshead you're using! I make it 117,410 HhFn^-1!

    9. Re:Wow. by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      That's about 1400 litres per minute.

    10. Re:Wow. by pla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      hell all they need is a $2 magnifying glass lens

      A 20x10 meter lens for $2? Please sell me a dozen! ;-)


      Actually, though, they wouldn't need to focus the light... That serves to concentrate light into a very small area to raise the spot temperature, but doesn't actually raise the temperature if you add in the area shadowed by the lens.

      Just paint the tops of the ducks matte-black, and you'll get the desired solar heating effect.

    11. Re:Wow. by orangeyoda · · Score: 1

      52.5 Gallons to the Hogshead ( imperial gallons / Hogsheads not US ones. )

    12. Re:Wow. by finity · · Score: 4, Informative

      The water that must be pre-heated is the "ballast" water. That water is already fresh water. The salt water doesn't have to be heated to 100 C, it's pulled to a low pressure with the ballast water, so it doesn't have to be heated as much.

    13. Re:Wow. by archen · · Score: 1

      You don't really need to heat all the water from a cold start either. If you look at any modern facility that requires large volumes of hot water, you see that incoming water is preheated by outgoing water flow. I don't recall the numbers where I work but I think the water temperature goes up around 60% closer to the target temp. Aside from that isn't everyone always bitching about the thermal waste (water) from nuclear power plants? Not only that but if you look at something like the Toronto project that heat exchanges with lake Ontario to cool buildings, there are other options to make the process much more efficient.

    14. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But would those be 160-fluid-ounce gallons or 128-fluid-ounce gallons?

      At least a metre, a litre and a kilo are the same everywhere in the world.

    15. Re:Wow. by steveo777 · · Score: 1

      A dozen? Why? Got some giant ant problems?

      --
      This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
    16. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You fail SI. How many litres per second, or per hectasecond if you prefer?

      (The answer is easily calculated, you don't really have to give it, just think before you use "per minute" again.)

    17. Re:Wow. by caudron · · Score: 1
      That's over 350 gallons per minute.

      And over a full Library of Congress every three days! Wow! That's a whole lotta got-dang water!

      Tom Caudron
      http://tom.digitalelite.com/
      --
      -Tom
    18. Re:Wow. by Ginger+Unicorn · · Score: 1

      if the lens covered a larger area than the pump it could gather light in that would not have hit the pump.

      --
      (1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
    19. Re:Wow. by BytePusher · · Score: 1

      "To start working, the ballast water must be pre-heated to about 100C but the whole system is insulated so that it only gradually loses heat and only needs to be refilled about once a month." First, the article doesn't say it's only heated once a month, but refilled. This sentence is a lot like how a teenage girl might go "and then, and then, but and then but, and and and like." It's just a stream of facts with little connection. The engineers working on this almost certainly intend on heating the water, but it seems it won't take _much_ energy to do so, because the ballast will be well insulated. I have no idea why the water will need to be refilled... ever.

    20. Re:Wow. by jfengel · · Score: 1

      Doesn't that cool down the ballast water? So you need additional energy input to keep the fresh water at 100C, yes?

    21. Re:Wow. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The temperature doesn't have to stay constant. The fresh water in the unit is only ballast. The rocking motion is used to put the water under partial vacuum so it boils at a lower temperature. The rocking probably continually increases the vacuum so that as it cools it continues to boil/steam. As others have pointed out, the water can be heated with sunlight, which is cheap to develop and cheap to operate (free but for maintenance.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    22. Re:Wow. by ricree · · Score: 1

      Yes, although the article claims that ballast will be able to last around a month before needing to be refilled.

    23. Re:Wow. by JhohannaVH · · Score: 1

      Oh man. Yes, completely off topic, but your sig just made me snort my chicken salad on my monitor. Thanks for finally motivating me to clean it!!! :P

      --
      Sorry man... the Internet pooped on me.
    24. Re:Wow. by NerveGas · · Score: 1

      No problem. :-)

      It's actually a quote from my wife, when she was speaking to me...

      --
      Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
    25. Re:Wow. by JhohannaVH · · Score: 1

      *giggle* Same place I got mine! (well, it was my husband, but still! :))

      Ah... our loved ones, huh? Too bad they don't come with pricey Christmas Gadget Glory. :D

      --
      Sorry man... the Internet pooped on me.
    26. Re:Wow. by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      According to Units 350 gal/min = 112000 hogsheads/fortnight.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  2. Stick one of these near the British Royal Family by Timesprout · · Score: 2, Funny

    And Australias salination problems are solved.

    --
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    What truth?
    There is no dupe
  3. cool by joe+155 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This could be really useful in the UK, we are getting frightening low on water during the summer months to the point where we thought that we might have to go back to stand pipes. We would have the money to build something like this and the energy to heat the water (it needs to be pretty hot to do it) - I do wonder though if it would be practical for the very poor countries because of the requirements on the heat (although maybe solar could take care of that) and the cost of building them... I wonder if it will be prohibitavely high

    also "One unit should be able to produce around 2000 cubic metres a day", that's pretty amazing.

    --
    *''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
    1. Re:cool by whathappenedtomonday · · Score: 1
      This could be really useful in the UK, we are getting frightening low on water during the summer months

      The UK? Yeah, very serious drought there every summer...

      --
      I hope I didn't brain my damage.
    2. Re:cool by lisaparratt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or you could just heavily fine the water companies 'til they fix their pipes, rather than letting such huge amounts of water leak away.

    3. Re:cool by pubjames · · Score: 1


      Except that in the UK the news about a "drought" every year is just bullshit. The UK is drowning in fresh water compared to many countries. Did you know that the UK only uses about 10% of the fresh water available to it each year?

      I don't understand why a big fuss is made every year about this. Perhaps it is an attempt by the water companies to get tax breaks from the government or something, I don't know. But I find it a bit sad that so many people in the UK seem to swallow it every year.

    4. Re:cool by Fr.+Teddy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      While that is strictly speaking accurate, it is of course not the full story. The vast majority of that water is in parts of the country where it is not able to be used. Perhaps a huge canal down the middle of the country might solve it - but nothing short of that would.

    5. Re:cool by cloricus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Haha yeah...How about this for frighteningly low; in early 2008 my city runs out of water. There are no backup plans and no prospects in the pipe line at the moment, due to a rather stupid population voting on our water future based on popularity (the good looking one was the dumb one) not on science, so all 100,000 residence and twice that in the near by regions will be out of water. I hear the huge storms that hit Brisbane over the last three days are only adding a weeks worth of water to their supplies too - they'll be out of water in four years - just over 1.5 million people in the city alone. The whole Australian east coast will be out of water by 2015.

      So as you can imagine most Australians are eagerly awaiting news of these projects and basically anything that will solve our water problem before, as is often quoted, the shit really hits the fan.

      --
      I ate your fish.
    6. Re:cool by name*censored* · · Score: 1
      "Most Australians" couldn't care what happens as long as they can stop the darkies getting in.

      well that'll always be the dream

      thanks for trolling, dont come again soon!
      --
      Commodore64_love: I don't comprehend people who're so frightened of death that they'll bankrupt themselves to stay alive
    7. Re:cool by spickus · · Score: 1

      "Or you could just heavily fine the water companies 'til they fix their pipes, rather than letting such huge amounts of water leak away."

      As someone who has worked for a municipal water supply for seventeen years, let me assure you that your local water authority is not intentionally allowing their product to leak away. While the monetary value of the water itself is low, the cost of lost production capacity is unacceptable (Ten years ago we couldn't produce water fast enough. Do you think we let it run back into the ground?). In the US, water suppliers answer to federal, state and county environmental agencies. One of the many parameters that is monitored by these agencies is "unaccounted for water". Water leaks always get worse, usually sooner rather than later. So that 5 gpm leak that could have been fixed during the daylight hours will turn into 3000-5000 gpm leak in the middle of the night, in the winter, in the rain, before my annual review...... If you fine your local water supplier, who do you think is going to pay the fine ? Can you say rate increase?

      --
      Indecision is the key to flexibility.
    8. Re:cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All that would accomplish is to give everybody either diarrhoea or constipation.

      All water contains E. Coli bacteria, and chlorinated tap water contains a particularly virulent strain that is immune to chlorine. Normally, your immune system gets used to the particular E. Coli strain in your own local water supply. When you visit a foreign country, or even a different part of the same country, you get a different E. Coli strain. Digestive disruption (either of the gas pedal or brake pedal variety -- or sometimes, the dreaded both-at-once variety where a lot of liquid shit finds its way past a small plug of solid shit) usually follows, until your immune system learns to deal with the latest E. Coli (or you go home, whichever comes sooner).

      If nobody knew for sure where their water was coming from from one day to the next, the only people to benefit would be the toilet paper manufacturers.

    9. Re:cool by lisaparratt · · Score: 1

      In the US, water suppliers answer to federal, state and county environmental agencies.

      The particular subthread is about the UK, not the US.

      Here, the privatised water companies do intentionally allow their product to leak away. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Water#Criticis m for details - the same applies to many other regional water suppliers. The fines for allowing water to leak away are minimal, they're practically regional monopolies, they can freely shaft the customer, and so it's more profitable for them to allow the water to leak away than to fix the 100+ year old pipes that have been leaking for decades.

    10. Re:cool by dajak · · Score: 1

      It's a little more complicated than that: you can't just judge the robustness of a landscape by the amount of water available. And the droughts are real.

      Here in the Netherlands we also had severe "drought problems" a few years ago, which is admittedly odd for a country largely below sea level with some of Europe's major rivers running through it, and that normally pumps sweet water out continually. Some of the symptoms: two floodings caused by failure of dehydrated dikes that were simply no longer capable of holding the body of water pushing against them, and long term salinization damage to agriculture caused by sea water pumped into the country to restore the water level and prevent further dike failures.

      Recurrent droughts would also eventually cause problems with salinization of dune aquifers, which is a problem because the plentiful river water we get from Germany and Belgium is not easily made suitable for consumption. Furthermore drought causes dehydration and increased rotting of peat (the major type of landscape here), which turns it into a CO2 source instead of a CO2 sink, and most houses have foundations on wooden stakes below the water level that also start rotting as soon as they are exposed to air.

      Anyway we may also be interested in desalination in some locations, while using reverse electro dialysis to generate energy from the difference in the salt concentration between seawater and river water when water levels are as usual.

      The reason why privatized water and energy companies (who can get brownouts because of insufficient cooling water) complain, is that they feel only responsible for selling the metered water/electricity they have available, and not for the consequences of having a fragile infrastructure that fails in rare circumstances: that's the taxpayer's problem as far as they are concerned.

    11. Re:cool by spickus · · Score: 1

      Interesting Wiki article, thank you. I'm curious though, do you know roughly their total daily production? Those leaks seem astronomical. I'd like to know what percentage they are leaking. It's cheaper to conserve what you have than to produce more at least in the long term. Anyways, lovely situation you have there. It appears to me that the fines were waived in order to allow them to spend the money on repairs and yet they still didn't fix it. Perhaps the utility should be condemned and managed by the regional government.

      --
      Indecision is the key to flexibility.
    12. Re:cool by spickus · · Score: 1

      "All water contains E. Coli bacteria, and chlorinated tap water contains a particularly virulent strain that is immune to chlorine."

      Absolute bullshit. If your water contains E. Coli, it has fecal contamination. ANY coliform contamination makes your water unfit for use. Look at the acceptable coliform levels in US water supplies (0 - nada - none). Also how would the coliform get into groundwater supplies? You did say all.

      --
      Indecision is the key to flexibility.
    13. Re:cool by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      Sure, that strategy's worked great with Microsoft.

    14. Re:cool by todslash · · Score: 1

      It used to be around 2,850 Ml/d and I doubt it has changed drastically

      So roughly a quarter of the water disappears before it reaches the taps. The reason so much is lost is because the system is getting on for a hundred years old and is falling to bits.

      Whilst there was the ability to increase the supply to counteract the losses then the cheapest thing to do in the short term was pump more water down the pipes and spend the repair budget on the biggest leaks. Now the demand is outstripping the supply and so the pressure is on to try and fix the leaks.

      When it was privatised then the companies knew they were sitting on a time bomb and so wouldn't take on the risk if there were strict penalties for leaks in the contracts.

  4. Oh the Irony by MarsBar · · Score: 5, Funny

    The inventor's name is Stephen Salter. Heh.

    1. Re:Oh the Irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The inventor's name is Stephen Salter. Heh.
      Not as ironic as you might think. Most people think of it as "desalination" because they're focused on the water product. But really, the input is seawater, and the two outputs are fresh water and salt. So salter's quite appropriate - he made a device for concentrating it.
  5. Not much risk of running out by edwardpickman · · Score: 1

    So long as there's a Moon there'll be a power source.

    1. Re:Not much risk of running out by Enygma42 · · Score: 1

      Well, the moon is only responsible for tides, which usually happen only twice a day. The wind is what's responsible for waves.

      --
      "hehe, website" - Homer Simpson
    2. Re:Not much risk of running out by teh+kurisu · · Score: 1

      There's no reason why tidal energy couldn't be used as well, it's just that potential sites are more limited.

    3. Re:Not much risk of running out by maroberts · · Score: 1

      So long as there's a Moon there'll be a power source.

      And even if there wasn't a moon, there is always the odd subsea earthquake to generate suitable waves for energy. Just think how much desalinated water a Beowulf cluster of these devices could generate from tidal waves!

      --

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    4. Re:Not much risk of running out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until the moon drifts out far enough to have little effect on tides anymore. Won't you think of the future?!!

    5. Re:Not much risk of running out by beyowulf · · Score: 1
      So long as there's a Moon there'll be a power source.
      Lets hope no martial artists blow it up with a Kamehameha Blast during a tournament, or something.
  6. Why not solar? by jonadab · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've often wondered why solar power isn't harnessed to distill seawater. It ought to be a simple matter to hook up a glass-topped insulated-on-the-bottom pyramid or somesuch with an inlet that lets seawater in (and the concentrated result back out for that matter) whenever a larger-than-average wave passes, set it up so the seawater passes over a metal plate, add some mirrors and/or lenses to heat the thing enough to create some steam, and pipe the steam out the top and over to a shaded receptacle with a non-insulated bottom (so it's heatsinked to the ocean basically) for the condensing. With a good design, it ought to be possible to do something like this so that it runs more-or-less unattended and requires only enough energy input to keep the mirrors and lenses aimed correctly as the sun moves across the sky at one cycle per day.

    --
    Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    1. Re:Why not solar? by will_die · · Score: 2, Informative

      They are called solar stills.
      While easy in design they are rather expensive, require huge areas of land to produce sizable quantities of water and weather dependant. Also you cannot have moving water since it needs time to heat up so that steam is produced

    2. Re:Why not solar? by salec · · Score: 1

      Actually, the sun has already done its part - the air above the sea surface and on the shore is humid because of evaporation. Now, all you have to do is to cool a surface which is not reachable neither by sunlight, nor by seawater and to collect condensed water. A simple long, vertical, floating, white or reflective-colored metal flask could do that (as long as the sea is cooler then the air above - otherwise, a metal panel up in the air would do the trick).

    3. Re:Why not solar? by name*censored* · · Score: 1

      You'd need to still let the sunlight IN, to heat the water, to make the air humid.... one way mirrors perhaps?

      --
      Commodore64_love: I don't comprehend people who're so frightened of death that they'll bankrupt themselves to stay alive
    4. Re:Why not solar? by salec · · Score: 1

      The point is: by the sea, the air *is* already humid! Just do the condensation part...

  7. Its actually only 305 real gallons per minute by Maddog+Batty · · Score: 1

    I do love Googles conversion function though. I didn't think it would work that one out OK but it did.

    --
    wot no sig
    1. Re:Its actually only 305 real gallons per minute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      You imperialists are always so big on gallons.

  8. Floating all your eggs in one basket? by Rogerborg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All floating platforms are subject to damage or loss during storms. You don't want interruptions in your fresh water supply, ever, and you especially don't want to lose it after a big storm, exactly when you need it most. This looks like a good idea in theory, but you don't base risk management on best case scenarios.

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    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    1. Re:Floating all your eggs in one basket? by artecco · · Score: 3, Informative

      I do not know what kind of platforms you reffering to, but I at least don't see any technical problems with build such plant. Within my industry (Norwegian oil&gas) we build offshore equipment and platforms, and the dimensioning of equipment are all well within what's technical achievable. Even in worst case scenarios

      So since we already dimension Oil rigs and equipment for mammoth storms, freak waves and gas explosions (happening at the same time for your pleasure), I would guess it wouldn't be a problem to build one of these...technical at least. Economical I don't know^^

    2. Re:Floating all your eggs in one basket? by muellerr1 · · Score: 1

      This thing is powered by waves. Bigger storm surge waves will mean even MORE fresh water!

    3. Re:Floating all your eggs in one basket? by radtea · · Score: 1

      So since we already dimension Oil rigs and equipment for mammoth storms, freak waves and gas explosions (happening at the same time for your pleasure), I would guess it wouldn't be a problem to build one of these...technical at least. Economical I don't know

      Oil platforms are mostly designed to either a) stand still or b) float freely. Either of these is technically much simpler than a system designed to stand mostly still but have really big moving parts. If you look at the diagram accompanying the article there it looks like the whole thing is supported by a couple of peirs through a "spherical roller bearing" sealed with a "spherical freedom seal". So basically the whole thing is one big moving part, no doubt subject to some pretty exciting modes of failure.

      One of the ongoing issues with wave power systems (and for that matter oil rigs) is dealing with extreme wave heights, and this does not give one a great feeling about that.

      Also, the system appears to depend on a very high maintenance cycle: fill the core with 100 C water once a month, which is used to heat the salt water under vacuum to boil it. So it's not like these things can be just left alone to do their thing.

      Finally, I can't see any through-fittings for salt water intake or brine/freshwater outlet in the figures, but I bet the fresh water coupling is pretty challenging too.

      Overall, it's an interesting idea, but there are clearly lots of technical challenges still ahead.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    4. Re:Floating all your eggs in one basket? by inKubus · · Score: 1

      Yeah, except that oil is quite a bit more valuable than water on the worldwide economy, which is what would build this. That may not be the case for much longer, especially with the population explosion that no one ever seems to talk about.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    5. Re:Floating all your eggs in one basket? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Given that all water delivery infrastructure is subject to loss or damage during storms or other disasters, this isn't saying that much. As mentioned elsewhere, move in a bunch of new platforms when such a disaster occurs. The only thing faster would be transporting in fresh water. I think this is acceptable risk.

    6. Re:Floating all your eggs in one basket? by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      You just have to buy insurance on it and all your risk management problems are solved!

    7. Re:Floating all your eggs in one basket? by mjwx · · Score: 0

      OK, Here's how water distribution works in a nutshell,

      Water is pumped or otherwise transported from its source to a storage area called a reservoir, which holds water in the 100's of gigalitres range (Dams also count as reservoirs). This is then pumped into homes or wherever it is needed. This ensures that there is a permanent supply of water as any type of water source is intermittent or at the least inconstant (rivers, rainfall, desalination). Even a half-full reservoir gives plenty of time to repair or even install new infrastructure at or for water sources.

      Most cities have more than one reservoir for redundancy.

      Also the southern half of australia (where their planning to build some desalination plants) very rarely gets hit by major storms (cyclones occur in the northern half of australia). Earthquakes are not a problem either as no part of Australia is on a fault line. Fire and Flood are always risks.

      So at least in Australia the risks have been thought of.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  9. Vitally Important by Surasanji · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This particular type of technology could be extremely important in countries with few water sources. Say such as much of the Middle East. Israel has a single fresh water source for the entire country, the Kinnert (Or Galilee) This same freshwater sea is the water source for a great part of Jordan. Both countries have coasts on the Red Sea- and already there are massive desalinization plants there, on the Israeli side. But, what about Egypt? All the African Countries on the coast that are still pretty dry. This particular technology could also be of great use in the first world, as someone else stated, in places like England. I'm sure they aren't the only country with a water problem.

    1. Re: Vitally Important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      England doesn't have a water problem, or indeed a shortage of resource, but totally incompetent water supply companies.

    2. Re: Vitally Important by ajs318 · · Score: 4, Funny

      The problem is that you can't build anything anywhere in the UK without someone protesting. Ten years ago when they were trying to build the Newbury Bypass, the protestors (very, very few of whom actually came from Newbury, BTW) were chanting "Homes not roads". Today, the protestors are active whenever someone tries to build houses. When they tried to build factories in the past, at least the locals would generally support the effort on the basis that a new factory would bring jobs to the area. Now if you tried to build a factory, you'd get rent-a-mob outsiders protesting against it and the locals would also most probably be protesting that the factory would bring immigrants to the area.

      Building a reservoir essentially involves digging a very large hole and filling it with water, incidentally drowning any cute fluffy bunnies et anal. that can't be bothered to learn to swim. (Actually, you have to do more than that; for a start, you have to undercut the hole to avoid evaporation, but we'll simplify things a little here.) So you'll get various groups of protestors turning up with their own agendas. Maybe they will be too preoccupied with in-fighting amongst the various factions ("you aren't a True Believer, you're only concerned about the value of your house and you eat m**t!" "Well you aren't even local, you've nothing to be worried about, you can just sod off back to where you came from and live off my taxes" "Yeah? Well how many diggers have you sabotaged?") to do any serious protesting.

      But it's not just the protestors you have to worry about, it's the workers and working conditions. You can't dig big holes in the winter, because it rains and they just fill up with water. And you can't dig holes in the summer, because it's dusty, thirsty work; the workers need showers and drinks, but there's a water shortage on .....

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    3. Re:Vitally Important by budgenator · · Score: 1

      The great thing about this is it's distilled water, there's no salt in it, therefore it can also be used for irrigation with out turn the ground into a salted out sterile waste-land in a couple decades.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    4. Re:Vitally Important by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

      But, what about Egypt?

      What has happened to The Nile? I thought the egiptians had been using it as source of fresh water for something around 5,000 years by now...

      --
      So say we all
    5. Re:Vitally Important by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 1

      Israel doesn't get water from off the Golan Heights?

      --

      ___
      It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
  10. Presumably... by turbosaab · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A sensible installation would accompany the floating platforms with a large reservoir to act as a buffer and prevent such interruptions.

    1. Re:Presumably... by Threni · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Perhaps you could pull them a few metres underwater during a storm?

  11. Engineer by Rostin · · Score: 4, Informative

    Stephen Salter is an engineer, not a "scientist." The distinction can be blurry, but I think this is pretty clearly an example of engineering rather than science.

    The only reason I point that out is that I'm an engineer, and I'd like credit to go where it's due. :)

    1. Re:Engineer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fuck you. /engineer AND scientist.

  12. Buy or desalinate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've often wondered why here in Israel we don't desalinate water. Only in the small city of Eilat is this done, also for a population of about 20,000. It seems cheaper to buy drinking water from Turkey that to desalinate it.

      http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/416/que en.php/

  13. It takes fresh water to make fresh water by diersing · · Score: 1

    Could it also be that it took them 30 years to find a practical application for their wave-to-energy ducks? The small scale prototype in a wave tank is pumping air rather then water? And in arid countries with good access to sea water (Australia and Israel are given as examples) aren't the countries that would need this type of technology. In third world areas where fresh water is an issue usually lack access to large bodies of water, so we're left talking about India - are they going to be willing to fill these ducks up with fresh water (FTA, its takes fresh water to make fresh water, heated to 100C).

    1. Re:It takes fresh water to make fresh water by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I'm sure you have good intentions but here we have another post asking how do people with absolutely nothing do anything? The answer as always is you do what you can with what you have got or get other resources in if you can.

    2. Re:It takes fresh water to make fresh water by wealthychef · · Score: 1
      In third world areas where fresh water is an issue usually lack access to large bodies of water,

      They can use another technology known as a "pipe" to send the water from the sea inland. Pumping the water will not be nearly as energy intensive as desalination -- well worth it.

      --
      Currently hooked on AMP
  14. Western world useage by Alcari · · Score: 1

    Even here in the Netherlands we could make good use of it, as salinization is a major problem and a threat to groundwater quality here (lots of coastline.)

    Just put these babies into the ocean, stick a tube down into the ground and, presto, no more saltwater in the dunes.

  15. Interesting concept by hoy74 · · Score: 1

    I like the idea; however, there wasn't anything mentioned to the impact on the local ecosystem by releasing the extra heat and salt directly back into the ocean. What happens after a couple of years of having this duck farm and the water contains a slightly larger percentage of minerals?

    1. Re:Interesting concept by mrjb · · Score: 1

      What happens after a couple of years of having this duck farm and the water contains a slightly larger percentage of minerals? Simple. This will not happen. As the water is used and/or evaporates, eventually it find its way back to the sea, restoring the salt balance.

      --
      Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
  16. Floater by Konster · · Score: 1

    Just use that Russian flaoting nuclear plant to heat the water up first...it'll work!

    1. Re:Floater by steveo777 · · Score: 1

      You're actually on to something there. Nuke-power produces a lot of heat. After the water is heated up, it just goes back where it came from, right? Or can you not use salt water for that? Or will people be leary about drinking water that tends to glow green, even when not in a 'glowy-cup'? Guess I got exited over nothing...

      --
      This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
    2. Re:Floater by cr0sh · · Score: 1
      Actually, in most (all?) nuclear fission plants using water as a moderator, you have two closed water loops - the loop for the reactor and the loop for the steam turbine.


      The loop from the reactor circulates water around the core - the water acts as both a moderator and (partially) as a shield for (neutrons? can you tell IANANE?), as well as an absorber of the excess heat from the near-critical pile. This water is circulated in a closed loop system to a heat exchanger, which forms a part of the second loop. This heat exchanger is essentially a big tank and boiler - because the water in the reactor core loop is a closed system, it is under both pressure and heat, and so the water is superheated beyond boiling, but remains mostly a liquid. As it circulates through the heat exchanger tank/boiler, it gives up a lot of its heat to the water in this system, which in turn boils and forms steam, which circulate (closed system again) through the turbines, then out to a cooling/condensation system (ie, the big cooling towers you see at a lot of older nuclear plants - newer units use different systems similar to that used on coal and oil fired plants), then the condensed water is circulated via pump and pressure back to the heat exchanger.

      Those are the basics - other plants can use other things as the core circulation/moderation fluid (one such system uses liquid sodium, others have used liquid sulfur - talk about a bad day if it ruptures), but the secondary turbine loop is always water (although, even here, some other working fluid could be used if the engine/turbine was designed properly to use it). As far as the "steam" you see rising from the cooling towers? Well, to cool off the radiators which the water circulates through, they circulate water from "cooling ponds" (which generally surround the tower, and are kept filled from a nearby water source) and "waterfall" this water over the hot radiators to cool them off - some of this water turns to "steam-like fog", and some of the "fog" also comes from moisture condensing from the air inside the towers (from what I understand, little weather systems sometimes form inside these large towers as well - it is supposed to be rather "tropical" in nature inside one).

      Each of these water loops (with the exception of the external cooling pond loop) is "closed" - that is, none is supposed to release any water or exchange any water with any of the other loops. In practice, this isn't strictly the case, but nuclear engineers work very, very hard to keep the primary core loop completely separate from the turbine loop (the turbine loop/cooling pond loop isn't as critical). These loops are monitored for radiation, leakage, and other factors constantly, and (in theory and in practice, in the vast majority of cases - Chernobyl and TMI notwithstanding, of course), at the first time of possible trouble, the reactor is shut down and repairs are made to correct the problem (which, of course, the media always have a field day with - I mean, there have been several bruhahas here in Phoenix about SRP shutting down Palo Verde for repairs to pumps, like this is a big deal-OMG!-we-are-dead kind of thing! Pumps wear out people! Worry when they don't replace them regularly!).

      Let me state here that I am not an apologist for the nuclear industry, but I do recognise its need, and I do understand, to a certain level, how these things work. What I don't understand, is why something so relatively simple isn't easily understandable by an ordinary person. I mean, it isn't like these things aren't documented as to how they work (on a high level) inside of encyclopedias and books available at any library, or anything, for like the past 50+ years, right?

      Why does our society revel and bask in its ignorance, as if it were a pinnacle of achievement or something? Then again, there is our proud and illustrious President - a stunning C-average student! Yet we wonder why our children are (nearly) dead last in academics...

      --
      Reason is the Path to God - Anon
    3. Re:Floater by steveo777 · · Score: 1
      Why does our society revel and bask in its ignorance, as if it were a pinnacle of achievement or something? Then again, there is our proud and illustrious President - a stunning C-average student! Yet we wonder why our children are (nearly) dead last in academics...


      Because the government (not by any means the current system) makes it too damn easy to get by without any effort. Free money for anyone who doesn't want to work...

      --
      This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
  17. As they say in Top Secret... by naich · · Score: 1

    Wow! They'll have enough salt to last forever!

  18. This is a life saving innovation by locksmith101 · · Score: 1

    Some places mostly hot climate countries like Africa and the Middle east are in a constant desperate need of fresh sweet water...

  19. Correction by Maddog+Batty · · Score: 1

    2000 ((cubic meters) per day) = 117409.801 hogshead per fortnight

    According to Google that is.

    --
    wot no sig
  20. Or even... by stomv · · Score: 3, Insightful

    have a spare one or two on land, ready to deploy? This is a good idea anyway, since one of the ducks could fail for any other reason, leaving people thirsty. If you lose a duck to a storm, you replace it with one stored on land.

    It ain't perfect, but it ain't bad either. Combine that with reservoirs (either big lake, or lots of 1 gallon jugs of freshwater at homes), and it's much better than the status quo.

    1. Re:Or even... by Shadowlore · · Score: 1

      Open lakes and resevoirs are susceptible to storm damage as well. They often get quite polluted during and after large sea-based storms.

      I do agree with you in general: have backups and build a supply. The supply would be constantly "rotated" to prevent stagnation. It is interestign that detractors point to a problem that already exists as a reason against a new idea. This is yet another case of perfect being the enemy of good enough. Storms on that scale already represent major problems to places that might supplement with a "Desalination Duck". Storms like that disrupt power and supply lives for everything else currently used. They tend to swamp natural sources such as riverways, pools, lakes, and ponds with burdensome filtration requirements.

      Yet they don't think about that much.

      Given the relatively small size of these devices having spares is reasonable, and a reasonable thing to protect from storms. Float them out after the storm passes and you've got water.

      --
      My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
  21. The economics are hopeless. by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 3, Insightful
    If you read The Fine Article, you might notice a certain shortage of facts. Like the costs. Economics are important. You don't want to waste money on schemes that are many many times more expensive than proven methods.

    In general, it's not feasible to capture wave power. The stuff is too diffuse-- it takes too much infrastructure to capture too little energy to even pay back the cost of building the contraption.

    It doesnt matter whether you use the mechanical energy to generate electricity, desalinate water, or make tea. You can't build a wave energy capture device that's rugged enough to survicve the storm, corrosion and other hazards at a reasonable cost.

    As a starting point, let's take their (unsubstantiated) estimate of 2,000 cubic meters per day. A quick google shows that's worth about $1,000 to $3,000. Assuming the waves are active 75% of the time we could expect maybe $2,000 a day from this device. That's about $700,000 a year. Kinda impressive at first glance. But will that be enough to even pay for the gadget over time? Let's estimate, generously, that the device will last ten years. And that we can borrow money to build it at 5% interest. If it and the pipeline to shore can be built for $10 million, we need to pay at least approx $1.5 mil a year to make headway on the principal and interest. Plus the cost of staff and maintenance. We're still a factor of more than two away from breaking-even. And that's assuming no risks due to weather or unanticipated problems with new technology.

    1. Re:The economics are hopeless. by Alcari · · Score: 3, Interesting

      10 years, Are you kidding? You can easily build it to last 75 or hundreds of years with proper maintenance. Take the word of a civil engineer. The moving parts may be more difficult, but I doubt it. We've got movable dams that are just about zero maintenance, that have been standing there for almost 40 years now. Of course, If you put multiple installations nearby, it saves the immense cost of laying another pipeline underwater (Probably costs more then the whole facility.) Also, funding for projects like this doesn't work like a bak loan. You simply take a percentage of the profit in eschange for providing funding.

    2. Re:The economics are hopeless. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget to the cost of pre-heating the ballast water to 100C and distributing it once a month to these offshore beasts. Heating water ain't cheap in some parts of the world.

    3. Re:The economics are hopeless. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You are making two assumptions that aren't necessarily true.

      First, that water is cheap. It may be where you are, but there are many countries where water is scarce. Australia and Israel, for example. Water starts becoming insanely expensive once you have low supply and high demand. It's not like we can do without it.

      Second, that the objective here is to make money. How about providing enough water so the population don't all die?

      There is often no alternative - in Australia, dams don't work well because there just isn't enough rain, for example. The electricity grid can't cope with the load that's already put on it, especially on the east coast, and there's not enough land near the sea for a solar-powered desalination plant. Something like this would be great. We just need to get the government to pay for it.

      Oh, and if you have water supply entirely in private hands, you're just asking for trouble.

    4. Re:The economics are hopeless. by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      Second, that the objective here is to make money. How about providing enough water so the population don't all die?

      Your making the assumption that money is ultimately meaningless, that the costs don't matter; this is a very common fallacy. The monetary costs represent resources -- time, labour, materials -- that must be spent on this project, and which will be unavailable for other projects. If the project is not cost-effective (if the costs are more than what people are willing to pay for the water) that indicates that resources spent on the project would have been better spent on some other more urgent need.

      We just need to get the government to pay for it.

      Good luck with that -- the government never pays for anything. As with any government project you and your neighbors will be paying for it. At least you are paying by choice; you can't guarantee as much for your neighbors.

      Oh, and if you have water supply entirely in private hands, you're just asking for trouble.

      It will be in private hands regardless; the only question is whose private hands: politicians or private investors? Which of the two is more likely to get away with misrepresenting the costs and benefits for personal gain? Keep in mind that the politician is proposing to invest other people's resources in the project, whereas a private investor would have a personal stake in its success. The politician may lose an election, if the project fails spectacularly enough; each investor risks far more on the belief that the project will succeed.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    5. Re:The economics are hopeless. by tomatensaft · · Score: 1

      Could you, please, write, where did you get this $1000 to $3000 figure? My best guess, is these are just US figures...

    6. Re:The economics are hopeless. by khallow · · Score: 1

      It doesnt matter whether you use the mechanical energy to generate electricity, desalinate water, or make tea.

      It most certainly does matter. A key point here is that the power produced is used at the same location. This means you don't need the infrastructure for transporting electricity or other power.
    7. Re:The economics are hopeless. by maroberts · · Score: 1

      Heating water ain't cheap in some parts of the world.

      Yes, but normally the parts of the world where water is scarce normally have plenty of heat available in the form of solar energy. The only exception which comes to mind is the deserts in the Antarctic.

      --

      Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
      Karma: Chameleon

    8. Re:The economics are hopeless. by cr0sh · · Score: 1
      Yes, but normally the parts of the world where water is scarce normally have plenty of heat available in the form of solar energy. The only exception which comes to mind is the deserts in the Antarctic.


      I am not sure what you are getting at here, whether you mean the Antarctic doesn't get enough sun or is too cold, but either way, it doesn't mean that solar heat energy can't be used there, either. Certainly, you probably couldn't use it year round (6 months?), and it may be difficult to use even when there is sun (due to the oblique angle the sun is at), but given a properly angled collector with relatively good optical and thermal efficiency (ie, plenty of insulation), you should be able to harvest a lot of heat from the sun. Your biggest issue would be dealing with thermal losses from the collector (which I admit, with the amount of snow, ice, and cold winds at both poles, would not be an easy task to conquer).

      I guess what I am trying to get at is that people need to know that solar collectors for heating use (as opposed to photovoltaics) can be utilized in cold climates. They aren't limited to areas which receive sun all the time (and in fact, in cold climates, such as the northern states - see knowledgepublications.com for an example - heat in the form of solar energy can help offset your heating bills by a significant amount in the winter).

      BTW - I am not affiliated with Knowledge Publications - I am just a satisfied customer...

      --
      Reason is the Path to God - Anon
    9. Re:The economics are hopeless. by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 1
      >10 years, Are you kidding? You can easily build it to last 75 or hundreds of years with proper maintenance.

      That's for things in fresh water, and things that can be taken out of the water to be scraped and repainted.

      None of those things apply for a seawater desalinizer. Think of supertankers, which cost tens of millions of dollars, and only last a few decades before rust overwhelms them.

      >Take the word of a civil engineer. The moving parts may be more difficult, but I doubt it. We've got movable dams that are just about zero maintenance, that have been standing there for almost 40 years now.

      You don't dam the ocean, so I suspect you're talking about fresh water devices. Totally different animals compared to saltwater energy-extraction thingies. Once you assemble that big a device in the water, you can't take it out again for repainting.

      >Also, funding for projects like this doesn't work like a bank loan. You simply take a percentage of the profit in exchange for providing funding.

      The people and institutions that have that kind of money are quite expert at evaluating the risk/reward ratio. Nobody is interested in investing in ventures that have huge risks and no possibility of making a profit.

    10. Re:The economics are hopeless. by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 1

      Just google for "the cost of desalinized water". Several charts pop up. I picked a middle value.

    11. Re:The economics are hopeless. by Alcari · · Score: 1
      You don't dam the ocean, so I suspect you're talking about fresh water devices. Totally different animals compared to saltwater energy-extraction thingies. Once you assemble that big a device in the water, you can't take it out again for repainting.
      We've solved the problem just fine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oosterscheldekering
    12. Re:The economics are hopeless. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your not taking into account that the technology behind this is active and in development right now.

      http://www.oceanpd.com/default.html

      Ocean Power Delivery is a company that branched off the research done in Edinburgh University, including Stephen Salter, on wave power. It has received over £6m in venture capitalist money...

    13. Re:The economics are hopeless. by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 1
      >Ocean Power Delivery is a company that branched off the research done in Edinburgh University, including Stephen Salter, on wave power. It has received over £6m in venture capitalist money...

      My point exactly. If this technology had any track record or hope of doing so, the money would have been available at x% interest from any big bank.

      Venture capital is usually invested in long-shot possibilities. A large percentage of the investments are a total loss. A small percentage may succeed, in which case the venture capitalists grab a huge share of the profits or a part of the company. It's like dancing with the Devil.

      Also note those folks are not exactly setting the world on fire. Their "latest news" is from June, and is just the announcement that they've dealt with the VC devils. Not a good sign.

  22. Renewable waves? by ScentCone · · Score: 3, Insightful

    the renewable energy of waves

    Come on, this is supposed to be a science/engineering summary of a science/engineering article. The term "renewable" should at least mean something. Bio-fuel crops are arguably "renewable." Waves simply are. Nobody needs to re-plant our gravitational interaction with the moon once we've harvested it. Swine waste methane is not the same as tidal activity. It's the article summary, for cryin' out loud. At least get the fundamental concepts behind the word choice straight. "Renewable" isn't the same as "something other than oil."

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    1. Re:Renewable waves? by eluusive · · Score: 1

      Exactly what I was thinking. Do they plan to push the moon back a little closer when it gets too far away or something?

    2. Re:Renewable waves? by ambrosen · · Score: 1

      What do waves have to do with the movement of the moon?

    3. Re:Renewable waves? by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      What do waves have to do with the movement of the moon?

      The tidal movement of the oceans (the thing that allows wave-based energy stuff to work) is largely driven by the movement of the moon in its orbit around the earth. The moon tugs at the ocean, which sloshes around, rising and falling. This does not need to be "renewed" in order to continue to work.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    4. Re:Renewable waves? by Bob-taro · · Score: 1
      I guess I don't see the difference. A wave comes in, you "use" it (taking some of the energy out of it). Then another wave comes in --- it's "renewed"! Is that so conceptually different than harvesting a crop and waiting for another one to grow? I don't think humans have to be an active agent of the renewal to call it "renewable".

      This article lists waves as a renewable source of energy.

      --
      Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
    5. Re:Renewable waves? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Get used to it. "Renewable" here has the meaning that either the energy source either isn't consumed or if it is consumed, it is restored to original utility over a short period of time. So in particular fission and fusion power would not be renewable because their fuel source is not renewable. Geothermal should be partly non-renewable as well so the classification isn't particularly rigorous.

    6. Re:Renewable waves? by ambrosen · · Score: 1

      Oh, I thought waves were caused by wind.

    7. Re:Renewable waves? by dotfred · · Score: 1

      you are more correct; the tides are driven by the moon, but most of the waves are driven by the wind - either local winds (smaller waves) or distant weather patterns, which generate the large, regular, 'swell' waves.

    8. Re:Renewable waves? by L33tminion · · Score: 1

      Solar, wind, and hydroelectric power have been refered to as "renewable" for a long time, along with resources (like forests) that need to be "replanted".

    9. Re:Renewable waves? by imsabbel · · Score: 1

      You are seriously mixing up tidal power with wave power generation.
      While the first really is moon-powered, the latter is, as a bastard child of the wind, solar energy at work.

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    10. Re:Renewable waves? by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      I do understand the difference (hey, I toured a tidal generating facility in Nova Scotia, which was quite cool, I must say). But the notion that tides are not part of wave action is a little simplistic. All that sloshing around generates a lot of "impulse" type energy that results in part of how waves behave and where they appear, and in what form, and how regularly, etc.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  23. Hmmm by LizardKing · · Score: 2, Funny

    As an added bonus, this could all be funded by selling the extracted salt to crisp companies.

    1. Re:Hmmm by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Hah. Do you really think potato crisps won't be banned within the next 10 years?

      They tries to introduce healthy meals in schools, kids didn't like the food. So this happened. And this. Didn't take a crystal ball to see this coming, did it?

      Some or other Tart Magazine recently carried a review of 20 ready meals. They had some half-famous foreign chef award star ratings based on taste. An anonymous nutritionist gave separate advice based on levels of fat / salt / sugar. In every category, the nutritionist rated highest the meals the chef gave only one or two stars.

      Now they've all but banned smoking, "unhealthy" food is the next target. The real agenda is to impose a tax on food to replace the cigarette tax (which is not working, now people can import fags from the continent; but on the continent, only unemployed people get state-funded medical treatment, and anybody who is working has to have medical insurance. So tobacco duty is lower there). It will start out as being a tax on unhealthy food. The demonisation of "obesity" (in a country where 9 women out of ten are trying to lose weight and the tenth is too proud to admit it) is nothing more than an exercise in grooming the public to accept such a tax. The truth is once such a tax is in place, it will be widened in scope until even a salt-free, sugar-free, fat-free, taste-free organic rocket salad is taxed as heavily as a box of Bensons.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    2. Re:Hmmm by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Just come out and admit it: you English can't cook.

    3. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd make a lot more margin selling Authentic Organic Renewable Sea Salt to green yuppies with more money than sense.

  24. How To Combat The Rising Ocean Levels by poddys · · Score: 1

    Ok so they say that sea levels are going to rise dramatically in the next 100 years, which will have a major impact on the land masses that we have today and the way we live. Instead of just using this new technology to provide water for those countries that need it, use it to pump millions of gallons of extra water out of the oceans and herlp keep the sea levels down. The increased evaporation of water from the new lakes should increase cloud cover, increase rainfall, and lower temperatures. Also if we placed powerful enough water inlets in one location and maybe outlets in another we could generate our own ocean currents. Just wishful thinking, but I have wondered for years why we couldn't use solar power or wave power in Africa to pump water inland. The desalination does not have to be on the coast either - the key is to pump the water inland, once there I'm sure the creation of jobs in the desalination industry would help the ecomony...

  25. Offtopic but cool by dbIII · · Score: 1
    I've often wondered why solar power isn't harnessed to distill seawater.

    It turns out that it isn't an easy problem to solve but there is a physicist sponsored by rotary international that is on the job with a good design (I'm sick and it's late so I can't remember even a name). With a source of reasonably hot water that does not have to be clean it can go from a trickle suitable for a village to turning out clean water in industrial quantities - even if the source is full of salt, heavy metals or bacteria. Most of it is simple UV resistant black plastic - some glass plates of a paticular geometry on the top alllow more heat in and provide a place for the clean water to condense. I'm sure google will help for the curious.

  26. Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion .. by rs232 · · Score: 1

    "As long as the temperature between the warm surface water and the cold deep water differs by about 20C (36F), an OTEC system can produce a significant amount of power."

    was Re:This is a life saving innovation

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  27. Concentrate disposal? by Pelakh · · Score: 1
    Depending on the efficiency of the mechanism, the resulting waste stream of concentrated brine would be a problem. 2000 cubic meters of fresh water per day could mean a large kill zone for marine life in the area immediately surrounding the waste site.


    This would also affect how these installations would scale. If multiple units are placed in close proximity, each would act to increase the salinity of the intake water of the others, making the desalinization less efficient (viable?). There is much more than testing in tank before we get to a workable, low energy fresh water solution. Seems like a good first step, though.

    1. Re:Concentrate disposal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do not think brine output is an issue if there is a minimum of current and/or modest tide level differences around the site. We are literally talking millions or billions of cubic meters of 'fresh' salt water surrounding the desalination sites within a few hundred meters. This mass is being renewed by currents and tides over time, so brine should (hopefully) dissipate pretty quickly. Depends on local conditions, I guess.

  28. What about hydrogen? by kvanloo · · Score: 1

    Could this kind of technology also be used to produce Hydrogen? Maybe both can be combined... In this way we certainly have some technology for the energy to come. Please join also the Energy2Com blog on http://energy2come.blogspot.com/ to discuss this technology!

    --
    --------- Interested in energy technologies for the future? Be welcome at http://energy2come.blogspot.com!
  29. It is too early to set loose the economists by dbIII · · Score: 2, Interesting
    If you read The Fine Article, you might notice a certain shortage of facts. Like the costs

    It is too early for costs. If you consider reality costs are variable based upon manufacturing techniques, materials used, supply, economies of scale, administrative costs, delays by regulatory groups and other things that are not immediately apparent even after construction of the first prototype. First you find out if it can be done - then you work out how to do it well for as little as possible based on better assumptions than those given above (only ten years of operating life when even desktop computers are designed to last longer?). I would certainly even question your assumption of the value of water in remote areas becuase it enables other activities that could generate money or other benefits by saving on transport costs for water.

    You can't build a wave energy capture device that's rugged enough to survicve the storm, corrosion and other hazards at a reasonable cost.

    It may be possible that is true but it is a pretty wild claim to make - what do you have to back this up? Why don't you think it is likely that the designer has considered existing structures that are built to survive for decades in waters with very powerful storms?

    1. Re:It is too early to set loose the economists by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      You can't build a wave energy capture device that's rugged enough to survicve the storm, corrosion and other hazards at a reasonable cost.

      It may be possible that is true but it is a pretty wild claim to make - what do you have to back this up? Why don't you think it is likely that the designer has considered existing structures that are built to survive for decades in waters with very powerful storms?

      Mostly because there aren't any comparable structures to compare it to. Mostly because existing structures that can survive storms (even when they aren't mechanically complex like these ducks) are fairly expensive. Etc... Etc... The sea is a harsh and cruel mistress.
  30. Neither engineer nor scientist. An inventor. by jetxee · · Score: 2, Informative
    The author is an inventor or a designer. To become an engineer he needs to take into account all the practical aspects of the implementation. Not only technical questions. Cost, producibility and serviceability should also be addressed in engineering. Once we see working implementations used in production we may call him an engineer.

    However, his invention is really interesting. And I really hope to see it in production.

    According to Wikipedia:

    The crucial and unique task of the engineer is to identify, understand, and interpret the constraints on a design in order to produce a successful result. It is usually not enough to build a technically successful product; it must also meet further requirements. Constraints may include available resources, physical or technical limitations, flexibility for future modifications and additions, and other factors, such as requirements for cost, marketability, producibility, and serviceability. By understanding the constraints, engineers derive specifications for the limits within which a viable object or system may be produced and operated.
    1. Re:Neither engineer nor scientist. An inventor. by jetxee · · Score: 1

      Citing: Engineering

    2. Re:Neither engineer nor scientist. An inventor. by Rostin · · Score: 1

      That's a good point. I think what I really intended to point out is that Salter is a professor of mechanical engineering. I got a little overzealous. :)

      I only have one quibble with your criticism. I don't think we have to see a working implementation before we can call Salter an engineer. It may be the case that his device isn't practical under any real circumstances. When I worked in industry (I'm a grad student now), if we decided not to go forward with a project, we didn't say that the engineering work that had been done up to that point suddenly wasn't engineering. Projects got killed (successful results, in a negative sense. We avoided doing something stupid) because of engineering analysis.

      So, it may be that he's done plenty of "engineering". The article doesn't say one way or the other.

    3. Re:Neither engineer nor scientist. An inventor. by khallow · · Score: 1

      Let us not assassinate this term further, jetxee. You have done enough. Have you no sense of slack sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of slack?

      More seriously, I fail to see the point of making the distinction between inventing and engineering. Engineers typically operate in a narrow scope. Eg, shaving weight from a car floor mat while maintaining sufficient durability or inspecting an assembly of refinery pipes to see if they meet serviceability requirements. So inventing is just a narrow scope example of engineering. Any successful invention has to address these other issues.
    4. Re:Neither engineer nor scientist. An inventor. by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      If nothing else, building a prototype is often needed for proof-of-concept, even if the prototype is ineconomical, you can have valid hopes that by studying the operation of a test prototype will allow you to gather the knowledge to build economical production models.

      Experimentation is usually part of the development process. Who knows, it might not be economical right now, but in the future the equations could change. Fresh water more expensive, fuel more expensive(making solar cheaper in relation), new materials and methods make producing the thing cheaper.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  31. 'Bout Time by viewtouch · · Score: 1

    It's about time. The energy efficient, low cost derivation of safe, potable water from ocean water is one of a handful of technological achievements that is urgently needed to prevent the ongoing suffering, impoverishment and deaths of a significant percentage of people throughout our planet. Here's hoping that technology can achieve this, finally, this time.

  32. TFA is light on detail by hcdejong · · Score: 1

    How about giving some numbers? kWh required for classic desalinisation of 1 l water vs. when using a duck?
    How efficient can the insulation of the freshwater be when the central partition (in direct contact with the freshwater) acts as a heat exchanger?

  33. Solar Stills by Noryungi · · Score: 1

    Actually, I happened to see one design of solar still the other day, that was touted as both cheap and small.

    The design used something pretty close to a solar panel: a flat white plastic surface, with a thick, dark-tinted, glass panel. Between the plastic back of the panel and the glass, the inventor put a black felt surface, on top of a black plastic sheet. The felt that was wetted by a plastic tube in which (very) small holes had been punched to create a drip.

    The felt, the plastic sheet and the glass panel together were able to evaporate huge amounts of water, that then condensed in a small collector and was taken away to a water tank. The designer said that the total cost for this design was about US$ 50, but that was not including a photovoltaic solar panel to power a pump to bring water to the system and pump the purified water out. When the felt or the plastic sheet were too dirty to work correctly, all that was needed was to clean them of their impurities, and they were ready to be re-used. Most of the materials could could come from a recycling process, and be recycled, with a very smallish environmental cost.

    Supposedly, this design was able to provide pure, drinkable water for a family of four. Of coruse, the whole thing had to be oriented south, and would work a lot better in a sunny country. I remember the system being installed in Puerto Rico to purify brackish water for human consumption, but the designer added it could also be used for desalination purposes. The main drawbacks, from what I understood, is that (a) the entire system needed to be "primed" for a couple of days before working at top efficiency and (b) that the design itself was so simple and so cheap few people believed it really worked.

    --
    The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
    1. Re:Solar Stills by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1
      The design used something pretty close to a solar panel: a flat white plastic surface, with a thick, dark-tinted, glass panel. Between the plastic back of the panel and the glass, the inventor put a black felt surface, on top of a black plastic sheet.
      You do realize that there is more to a solar panel than just coloring some glass black, don't you? I'll assume you do, and that there is some actual way (other than mere appearance) in which this remotely resembles a photovoltaic cell array, and ask you what it is. How is this anything like a solar panel?
      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    2. Re:Solar Stills by Noryungi · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, I know there is more to a solar panel than painting a piece of glass black. Happy? ;-)

      However, let me point out that there are two types of solar panels out there: photovoltaics and thermal solar. The design I was talking about is, of course, a "thermal solar" type of panel, that does not generate electricity (that's a photovoltaics) but that uses the heat radiated by the sun.

      Of course, someone out there is going to say: "Aha! But thermal solar can also be used to generate electricity", to which I reply: yes, but these use a Stirling Engine, and not the simple fluid-heating mechanism that I described in my first post. See here for an example of a Solar Stirling engine used to generate electricity.

      A lot of people who think solar panels are inefficient and/or too expensive think about photovoltaics, and not heat-transfer solar panels. The latter being, of course, much more simple in design and less expensive, while still providing important functions.

      --
      The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
    3. Re:Solar Stills by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the clarification. I understand now. I hope I did not offend, as that was not my intention (although I do like your sig). Good day sir!

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    4. Re:Solar Stills by Noryungi · · Score: 1


      No offence taken! :-)

      --
      The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
  34. desalination ducks by The+evil+doctor+Matt · · Score: 3, Funny

    desalination ducks... Wonder if they'll use the salt to make saltine quackers...

    1. Re:desalination ducks by kafka47 · · Score: 1
      desalination ducks... Wonder if they'll use the salt to make saltine quackers...

      And are they water-tight?

  35. Or, in music form... by lys1123 · · Score: 1

    "Wave-Powered Ducky, you're the one
    That makes desalination fun!"

  36. The word you're looking for... by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    I know how things really work, I feel it in my gut.

    It's called "truthiness."

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  37. What happened to "water from thin air" machine? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A few weeks ago, there was a story about a lowtech machine that could extract drinkable water from the air very efficiently and up to 600 gallons/day (even in arid deserts):
    http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/0 6/212252

    What happened to that one? Letting the sun do the evaporation/desalination and harvesting the water later in that cycle seems more logical to me (although the costs are unknown).

  38. obnoxious device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can you say rate increase?

    Can you say "patronising cunt?"

    1. Re:obnoxious device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whaaa, cry you little cunt. You're an idiot and he called you on it!

  39. Brilliant. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    Or you could just heavily fine the water companies 'til they fix their pipes, rather than letting such huge amounts of water leak away.

    Yeah, because it's not like they'd just pass that fine onto their customers, who, as we know, have so much choice in who they buy their water from.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  40. of course his full name is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stephen Nomore Salter.

    1. Re:of course his full name is by Iron+Chef+Unix · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think you have bad information, his name is Stephen D. Salter.

      --
      Like puzzle games? Warehouse51 for iOS
  41. *England's* water shortage is easily fixed by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    The problem isn't running out of water, the problem is the economics of the privatised utilities.

    Everyone pays a flat rate for their water so there is absolutely no reason to conserve any water at all. On the utilities side, they get paid exactly the same whether half the water is leaked out of the pipes into the ground or whether it's delivered. Maintenence then simply reduces their profits.

    The solution, which will fix both problems is water meters. That way the individual household pays for every litre they pour onto their grass and BMW 3 series. The utilities also then only get paid for litres of water which are actually delivered to the customer, not for water which leaks into the ground. At the moment with flat rate water supply, the low water users are heavily subsidising high users of water, including businesses.

    Scotland on the other hand has far more water than we need. How does 20p/litre sound?

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:*England's* water shortage is easily fixed by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      The meter only solves problems if the cost of water is perceived to be extremely high. If it were $10/gallon or litre, then you wouldn't see people running taps wastefully. The problem is that people need water, and it isn't really a luxury. I think that meters should be mandatory for everybody, and that the price should be exponential. So, it would be free for the first few litres, to drink and to flush, but it would just go up after that. The next few would be $1/gallon, and then the next few would $10/gallon, etc.

      When I say "few", "$1", and "$10", I'm just throwing out rough numbers for illustration. The curve would have to be much more generous than that.

      The reason that I say all of this is that it isn't uncommon to see water being wasted in my city, even though most of us are on the meter. All new buildings are much more environmentally friendly, and are metered, yet you see sprinklers running during the rain, and water pouring out on the streets during dry seasons. It's very sad.

  42. I have one answer for you. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    Just wishful thinking, but I have wondered for years why we couldn't use solar power or wave power in Africa to pump water inland.

    Because the world has basically decided, through its inaction, that the lives of people in Africa aren't worth the expense of doing that.

    The reality of it is that human life is cheap, when it's far away and somebody you don't know.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  43. Fight water with water. by UNIMurph · · Score: 1

    Make unusable water usable by using unusable water. Who wouldda figured.

  44. Water meters by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    You guys don't have water meters? That's ... interesting. So if I use 3x as much water as you, we both pay the same amount at the end of the month?

    Seems like you don't have to be Adam Smith to figure out the way that's going to work. It's the "splitting the tab" phenomenon (when you go to a restaurant for lunch and agree to split the check evenly ... it encourages people to order more expensive stuff than each other and thus screw everyone else).

    I generally don't have a whole lot good to say about my municipality, but I can't complain too much about the way they bill water and sewer service. They meter the incoming fresh water, and use that as the basis for charging (on a per-quantity basis) for water and sewer. They start off on the assumption that most people's incoming water ends up going down the sewer anyway, so you can approximate those quantities as being equal to each other. If you have an irrigation system, or other large water-user that doesn't go into the sewer, you can get a separate meter installed for that and they'll charge you only for the water and not for the sewer. (No idea what the meter costs or if you can only get it on new construction, but I know people whose outdoor taps are billed at a different rate.)

    It's been a while since I've really studied the bill, but I think there's probably some base rate for 'service' (essentially to cover the fixed cost of the infrastructure) and then they add the consumption charges onto that. I do recall though, that the cost for sewer disposal was more, per gallon, than the cost of fresh water, which I found interesting (but not totally surprising; those sewage treatment plants don't look cheap).

    To cut down on the expense of meter-reading, they bill on a 3-month cycle, and you have the option to choose predictive billing (where they average out your consumption for a year and break it up into equal monthly payments, plus some surcharge) if you want the same amount every month. The same invoice also has municipal garbage collection and recycling on it.

    Perhaps the way to encourage adoption of water meters would be to sell them to people as an optional service, for those who don't consume a lot of water and want to save money? So if you base your "flat rate" on a family of 4 and their average consumption, it would make sense for any person/household that didn't consume that much water, to get a meter and switch to consumption-billing. Rather than burying the meters in the sidewalk or street, as is frequently done here (the infrastructure is mostly 50+ years old) you could use meters inside houses or apartments that sent back telemetry via RF in the metal pipes, or some other method. That would keep you from having to dig, and from having to send out meter-readers. Most of the billing could be automated.

    Once you get enough people using metered service, it becomes less and less economical to stay on flat-rate billing -- because the people who remain on flat-rate service essentially have to pay for all the water that's used and not metered, including leaks and other line losses, divided up between them. The fewer ways that you 'split the check' the closer you come to having to pay for your own lunch, and the less incentive there is to be a pig. Eventually even high water users might see the advantage in switching to metered service, so as not to be paying for leaks in the lines. (And when you have all-metered service, the water co. has a reason to fix leaks.)

    Seems like a bit of a no-brainer, really.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:Water meters by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1
      Perhaps the way to encourage adoption of water meters would be to sell them to people as an optional service, for those who don't consume a lot of water and want to save money?
      Here's some good news for you. I live in Surrey, BC, and they gave away meters for free. The waiting list is so long, that I think that they got around to my parents house 1 month late. When they finally came, we began to wonder if they were intending to fix the hole in the driveway. They did.

      I'm not implying that they are slow. I'm just saying that I totally agree with you. There is a high demand from most people to use a meter.

      The sad news is that water is so cheap, despite dry seasons and water restrictions, that there still is no incentive to shut off the taps.
  45. And so the worlds' population by fredrated · · Score: 1

    is enabled to keep climbing...climbing...climbing...

    Am I the only one who thinks pushing back all natural forms of population control in the face of mankinds inability to control its' population voluntarily is not such a good thing?

    1. Re:And so the worlds' population by MoronBob · · Score: 1

      Technological advances are the reason the planet has been able to sustain larger and larger numbers of people. There is a good chance that you are here as a result of such advances. So do you get to decide now that these results should be controlled to keep the population from increasing from current levels? Kind of like the guy who moves out to the country builds a house and then declares that there will be no more development in the country. I've got mine but you can't have yours. Take a flight from LA to New York and get a window seat. You can spend hours flying at 500 miles an hour and see almost no cities. Is the planet really over populated or are some cities over populated. In the U.S. we are used to more space per person than the folks in Tokyo. I am not trying to be insulting I am just asking you to investigate a different perspective. If we can sustain larger numbers of people is that automatically a bad thing or is it a good thing. More people, more scientists, more medical advances, greater potential for good? More people, more criminals, more crimes, more war? Is the glass half empty or half full? I for one am glad that I live now with more people on the earth than at a time like the dark ages when there were much less people and things like the black plague and the spanish inquisition. The problems we face now will be history in a few decades and we will be facing new ones. If we accept the challenges of today more people like you will be able to enjoy a life like yours in the future. Is that a bad thing?

      --
      Telecommuting! What about socialization?
    2. Re:And so the worlds' population by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      On a positive note, one of the side effects of this development is that a population shift may occur from 'over-populated' regions of the planet to currently uninhabited regions.

      Take Central Australia, for example. Unable to sustain a large number of human lives - there's insufficient water. Extract water from the sea, irrigation follows...

    3. Re:And so the worlds' population by RobbbyRob · · Score: 1

      God, I hope so.

  46. Renewable, Really??? by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1
    But are waves truly renewable? The energy comes from somewhere. I thought tidal generators were slowing down the rotation of the Earth until it someday becomes tidal-locked with the Moon. And while there is a lot of energy tied up in the rotation of the Earth, it's hardly limitless, nor renewable.

    You think global warming is a concern now. Consider how bad it would get with 336 hour days!

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  47. This isn't "wave powered" at all. by SwedishChef · · Score: 1

    The motion from the waves only serves to "pump" steam from heated sea-water into a condensor where the fresh-water is then pumped to shore via (apparently hollow) legs. But where does the steam come from? According to the article there is a "central section" that heats the sea water. No mention of how "wave power" plays a part in this nor is there any mention of just what, exactly, causes the sea-water to heat up. Presumably to 100C which is what the ballast water has to be "pre-heated" to in order to start the unit up.

    It might work and even be more efficient than reverse-osmosis plants depending upon the source of power to keep heating the sea water. But it's certainly not "wave powered"

    And then, of course, there is the problem of situation it where there are waves. Oddly enough, finding waves that are large enough to make this unit (20 meters long and 10 meters in diameter) go into motion. So you would have to put it in the open ocean, tethered close enough to land so that the water can be pumped ashore (and power pumped back out to heat the water). Even then you're likely to find that large waves are not as common as one might think.

    I'd sure hate to run into one in a sailboat.

    --
    No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
  48. 207,375 gallons of ballast water; 69,000 kWH by rickkas7 · · Score: 1
    From the diagram, it looks like the unit is roughly half full of ballast water. If it's 10m in diameter and 20m long, that's 785 m^2 or 207,375 US gallons!

    Assuming we stick this in a balmy tropical island with 70F water (21C), we'd need to raise 752,510 kg of water 79C which is 59 million kilocalories or 248 million kilojoules. That's 69,000 kilowatt hours or 235,808,450 BTU. This probably not unreasonable if you really only need to do it once a month, but it's not an insignificant amount of energy, either.

  49. Cheaper still. by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    Har har, get the pun? Just plaster some greenhouses over a beech, paint the base of the unit black. Suck the resulting vapour out and condense in the seawater. You could go as far as making them float. Hell, they could be made inflatable.

    --
    Deleted
  50. Global Warming! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ok, so what effects will this beast have on Global Warming? Global Warming, which everyone agrees is caused by Americans, will kill us all off in the next 20 years unless Americans drop all technology, and return to the pure life of living in a log cabin, burning logs in a fireplace to cook their squirrels.

    All scientists agree that this will drive the Global Warming problem into an uncontrollable spiral, killing all life on Earth in 20 years. Such technology as this will obviously destroy the delicate balance of nature, causing unparalled degrees of destruction to the enviornment. Even a single one of these will cause unprecedent levels of damage!

    And what if one of them breaks open? All that heated water inside will simple drive the global temperature through the roof!

    These things should be banned on an international level (excluding developing nations like China, Syria and North Korea of course).

  51. I have a better idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We could harness thermonuclear fusion power to desalinate sea water...

    And let's give it a catchy name... I'm thinking "Rain"

  52. Wave-assisted not wave-powered by jgercken · · Score: 1

    Surely the heat source, not the rocking motion caused by waves, will be the biggest energy input into the system. Evaporation rate is primarily a function of temperature, pressure and surface area so one can postulate that the units would be more effective the larger they were. This would increase both the surface area and maximum obtainable head pressure (depth of the chamber baffle multiplied by the density of water).

    What if the devices pulled deep ocean water where combustible gasses, such as ammonia, will bubble out?

    --
    Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately attributed to ignorance. -Napoleon
  53. Better still by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    An inflatable, sponge based still. The base of the unit is 10cm thick black polyeurethane sponge the glass is simply clear inflatable tubing.. Instead of land, you float it out on the sea. hmm, it occurs that I should patent this.

    --
    Deleted
  54. like water... by gemada · · Score: 1

    off a ducks back. just pour saltwater on a duck's back and the feathers will filter out the salt. no need for those fancy contraptions.

  55. Desalinating Salter by Ana10g · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Why is that a guy with the last name of "Salter" is inventing desalinization tools? Anybody?

    --
    just an analog boy living in a digital age.
    1. Re:Desalinating Salter by tddoog · · Score: 1
      Why is that a guy with the last name of "Salter" is inventing desalinization tools? Anybody?

      His middle name is De

  56. Desalinization plant? by dmatos · · Score: 0

    Yes - the grotto uses so much water, the bunnies thought it was a good idea.

    --

    It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
    --Scott Adams
  57. What about waste disposal? by cellocgw · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Unmentioned so far: what to do with the leftover salt. Unless you wait for 100% of the water to evaporate, you end up with highly salinized waste water. IIRC there are some desalinization plants in the Middle East or India, and significant "dead zones" in the ocean nearby. None of the indigenous aquatic life can tolerate raised salt levels.

    --
    https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    1. Re:What about waste disposal? by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      Lots of ocean places have dead zones due to overfishing due to human hunger. None of the indigenous aquatic life can tolerate an ecosystem turned upside down by overfishing. Unmoderated and largescale thirst an hunger can destroy many things around you. Back in the day horse manure used to be the fertilizer, and people lived well within natural cycles, true, without much showering. But there were far less people nature had to support, unlike these days, high on running out fossil fuel based nitrogen fertilizer pumped eroded soil fed ultrapopulation. Out of 100 TW photosynthesis on earth, people need like 1-2 TW in food, and considering conversion efficiencies, that's more like 15 TW of the 100 TW photosynthetic input. Potable water is just a side question, the bigger problem is food without Haber-Bosch ammonia, that needs lots of basic energy to make. What's gonna feed us? Coal? Nuclear? Solar? Wind? Or this wave power? Energy is the question, once you got it, you can turn it into electricity and make whatever you want out of it, fertilizer, desalinated water, carbon dioxide derived fats and sugars food.

  58. Use the density of saltwater to push thru a membra by rweaving · · Score: 1

    The density of saltwater is greater then the density of fresh water, so why not put a nanotech desalination membrane a few miles down in the ocean, and let the pressure differential of the salt and fresh water to push thru the membrane? No moving parts... http://www.physorg.com/news82047372.html

  59. Possible clue by dbIII · · Score: 1
    Mostly because there aren't any comparable structures to compare it to.

    Oil drilling platforms sometimes have a lot of very heavy gear in the water and winch it up or lower it down when storms approach. Would it be all that hard to have it on pylons and sink the thing? Also something that is mechanically complex to you may not be mechanically complex to a civil engineer, marine engineer, fitter, rigger etc etc. These things are not even really that big and don't have to go in deep water - they may even go where you already have structures like wooden houses on stilts in the water surviving for decades or spindly old jetties.

    Can't do it because we don't have a retail price tag yet is a common argument of polititions who wish to avoid action or kill projects - but don't get sucked in and use it yourself. The place to use this argument is against people who have complex costing based upon fantasy that they treats as reality - but gently.

    1. Re:Possible clue by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      Mostly because there aren't any comparable structures to compare it to.

      Oil drilling platforms sometimes have a lot of very heavy gear in the water and winch it up or lower it down when storms approach.

      Oil platforms are not even remotely comparable - because their heavy gear isn't moving in the seaway, unlike the 'ducks'.
       
       
      Also something that is mechanically complex to you may not be mechanically complex to a civil engineer, marine engineer, fitter, rigger etc etc.

      That's assuming I've no experience in those professions, or similiar experience. (Which I do.)
       
       
      These things are not even really that big and don't have to go in deep water - they may even go where you already have structures like wooden houses on stilts in the water surviving for decades or spindly old jetties.

      Not having to go in deep water means they have to go into a place thats even more difficult to be - the shallows. Wooden houses on stilts are rarely where there are significant wave action, and jetties don't have moving joints between the supporting and supported structures like the 'ducks' do.
       
       
      Can't do it because we don't have a retail price tag yet is a common argument of polititions who wish to avoid action or kill projects - but don't get sucked in and use it yourself.

      Had I made that argument - you'd have a point. But I didn't.
       
       
      The place to use this argument is against people who have complex costing based upon fantasy that they treats as reality - but gently.

      The costing by the 'duck' proponents *is* an fantasy - because they don't even know if the damm thing will work (they haven't built anything resembling a prototype).
    2. Re:Possible clue by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Didn't you say there was no costing? I also made the assumption you had no experience in any technical area due to the wording of you post and the blanket assumption that it was impossible to survive a storm with this - jumped to conclusions are usually the sign of a lack of clues in the feild and a lack of recognition of ignorance in the feild.

  60. Wave Electricity by Garrett+Fox · · Score: 1

    There have been several attempts to develop electricity generators using the tide, such as these:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/04/business /main2153298.shtml
    http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040322/full/040322 -7.html;jsessionid=E3647E0B96B907DE7AF07B7FC3B0361 4
    http://www.discover.com/issues/dec-05/features/oce an-energy/
    I'm skeptical of the original article's device because it apparently is from "New Scientist," which recently reported on an Amazing Antigravity Device (not that I trust Discover much these days). But the wave energy gadgets have been proven to generate electricity (11kV for the third one), and you can use that for conventional desalination. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power .

    Presumably it can't be used for cooling, though -- can't simultaneously equip the Wave Beam and the Ice Beam. 8)

    As I understand it, about half the world's desal capability is located in the Middle East, mostly in Saudi Arabia, and there it's oil-powered, done by high-pressure sprays against a grating. Even in the Middle East it makes up only maybe 3% of the water supply.

    Long-term, we should be looking at greatly reducing the need for freshwater by making irrigation more efficient -- it makes up about half of our demand -- and that means drip-irrigation systems and maybe gengineering of plants for salt tolerance.

    --
    Revive the Constitution.
  61. Your economics are hopeless. by Shadowlore · · Score: 1

    You can't build a wave energy capture device that's rugged enough to survicve the storm, corrosion and other hazards at a reasonable cost.

    Your assertion is void without defining "reasonable cost".

    For this post all monetary terms will be in US dollars.
    Currently, the best desalination plants are running $2.5-3/1000 gallons (for seawater plants, the target market) in costs. Stated another way that is about $2.5/3.8 cubic meters.

    One of these units producing 2000m^3/day means the cost of running that unit would need to not exceed $1300-1570/day on the stated output to be competitive on a simple ongoing basis versus the best the competition has to offer - a high end large scale desalination plant. Right away we are faced with a series of important questions you missed.

    How large is the competition's plant?
    What land surface area is required?
    What are the turnkey costs for this solution verus the standard plants?
    What are the ongoing costs?
    Are up front capital (i.e. construction) costs included in the per-gallon costs above?
    What is the market like?

    Generally speaking, a 25 million gallon/day (MGD) seawater desalination costs about 100 million dollars to build. That's about $4/gallon-day in construction costs. The barrier here is that 100mill isn't chump change. 2000 m^3/day is about .523MGD. If we blindly apply the $4/gal-day ratio above we arrive at a construction cost of about 2 million. Is it possible? Given the simple technology here, I'd say yes, or pretty close. The 100Mill figure doesn't include land or power supply, merely construction costs.

    Even if it cost twice as much on a gallon-day basis, you are left with a construction cost of about 4 million dollars.

    WHich is easier at a "reasonable cost" estimate? Desalination plants acheive their relatively low cost by being very large. This also makes them cost prohibitive in areas that don't need 25MGD capacity. If you don't need to provide water for about a million people that big plant will be oversized. Got 40K people? Two of these units, at 4 mill apiece is a lot better than that big ole desalination plant that still needs a power source.

    Most of the cost of ongoing desalination plants in operation is power. While power requirements have decreased they have done so slower than cost of the power has increased. The result is a net increase in power costs. For a plant with a similar capcity you are looking at about 400K/year in energy costs alone. Can this system beat that? First glance says absolutely. If the cost is 1/3rd, for example, you've got about 300K in annual savings you can "spend" elsewhere. Looked at another way that's 41 cents per gallon less in energy costs, or about

    An additional advantage of the smaller scale of the "ducks" is that they have less salinity concentration problems. These units can be spread out over a larger area and thus result in lower salt residue to dispose of versus a decentralized plant's large amounts.

    But back to construction and ongoing costs.

    You stated; "If it and the pipeline to shore can be built for $10 million, we need to pay at least approx $1.5 mil a year to make headway on the principal and interest."
    You need to be more specific here, for your figures are not representative of the way business does loans. A 5% interest loan on 10Mil over a short 10 year loan will run you 1.2Mil/year straight. That assumes you'd be borrowing a full 10M. The more likely scenario is that such a business would actually use a 20 year loan resulting in straight payments on the full 10Mil including PI to be under 800,000/year.

    Estimating power costs at 100K/year we have so far an operating cost of about 900K/year. Staffing for this requires very few people, so figure in another 200K/year in staffing (less if you aren't in the US ;) ). Now we are to 1.1M/year. budget in another 100K/year for maintenance as the parts for this appear to be quite simple and hence cheap. So a total of about 1.2M/yea

    --
    My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
  62. Membranes are great by theapodan · · Score: 1

    This sounds like fake science.

    Membrane processes work great and don't clog at an unacceptable rate if you adequately prefilter either with conventional media filters or larger pore membranes.

    It strikes me it'd be more efficient to use bobbing duck thingies to generate the boost pressures needed for a membrane process.

    Reverse osmosis or electrodialysis are still neat technologies that are good for desalination. Relatively small footprint too. The overall recovery for a desalination plant might be only 50% or less depending on source quality though, so disposal of brine is still a problem for existing plants. Underground injection, spray irrigation, and direct discharge are some of the solutions I've seen.

    I'm not going to say it won't work, but yeah, it won't work.