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Is Computer Science Still Worth It?
prostoalex writes "Is it a good idea to go into Computer Science? Yes, there are certainly pending labor shortages as Indian companies outsource to the United States, but speakers of Stanford Computer Forum generally agree that it's a good career choice. From the article: 'To ensure job security, students must learn business, communication and interpersonal skills, Vardi recommended. The personal touch will become as important as technological expertise, he said. "There are jobs galore," agreed Suzanne Bigas, assistant director of the Stanford Computer Forum.'"
It's great being a CS degree holder. You can sometimes get flexible working hours, decent benefits, and an ungodly low level of sunlight in the year. Given the carcinogenic effects of solar radiation these days, coupled with toxins in diet softdrinks, it's probably best that white collar workers live and work indoors though.
Work for talented programmers will never end. But work for programmers in general will not be as common in the coming years when everyone and their dog can make a website on My Space.
Oh You POS
Is studying philosophy worth it?
Yes, if you love it.
Yeah, it's still good, you just have to add that twist. Biology seems to be popular these days, business, marketing, others like that sure are helpful. Straight computer science? Well, you'll probably be just a code monkey. Learn statistics if math is your thing, we're always looking for people who can turn numbers into useful statistics, but program it to make it flexible. You don't have to have a double major, not that that ever hurts, but a minor or even a few electives.
VoIP stuff seems to be a big thing, especially in developing countries(ever wanted to travel?), learn codecs, learn how to program codecs, learn how to hack Asterisk and SipX and some of ht eothers, play with Asterisk@Home.
Oh, this isn't an Ask Slashdot? Sure looks like one.
You confuse computer science with computer programming.
That is like confusing music theory with music composition, something I would hope you would be aware of.
Computer science deals with algorithms, complexity notation, predicate calculus, proofs, and grammars, most of which you will not pick up by just being a programmer.
GPL Deconstructed
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
I think there's always room for good people in CS. If you're a type who goes to Stanford/MIT/others and gets a degree in CS because you love learning about computational processes and have a natural drive and curiousty, my guess is that there are plenty of firms willing to hire you.
If, on the other hand, you want to learn CS to get a 'good job' after school, and end up going to a second-rate university where they teach you specific software instead of abstract ideas, you might not have such a good future after college.
I'm sure both types of students attend all universities CS departments, don't get me wrong. I think your attitude going into it is what matters most, if you love CS and work hard, I bet you'll be just fine. If possible, don't choose your major based on what's in fashion, do what you want.
I can't speak for other parts of the world, but in the Netherlands IT is one of the best sectors to be in. Frankly, I have a hard time understanding all the people on slashdot talking about how shitty a job in IT is. Maybe things in the states are totally different (for one thing, the wages are even higher than here in the Netherlands). But there is little reason why IT could not be a pretty good career choice. Of course, there are some things which might help you along:
* Work on your social skills. It's not accurate along the board, but many people think that every IT specialist lives in his mothers' basement. Be sociable and this prejudice might turn out to be an advantage.
* Keep on learning. It's fun but it's also an investment in yourself. In few sectors knowledge is as volatile as in IT. Make sure you keep on top.
* Find an employer that fits your personality. Don't expect flexibility from a megacorporation and don't think small businesses will be able to buy you education.
* But most of all: Make sure you're doing something you like (most of the time). A great salary is of little use if you hate the work. If you enjoy your work, you'll be able to go the extra mile which will pay for itself in the long run.
It used to frustrate me that I didn't know how to program C decently but I rectified that starting in 2002. I was going to start by reading The Art of Computer Programming and realized how much MATH there was, and how it would be in assembly, so I did a "shortcut" and read K&R and Code Complete and did things that way. Of course, there are no real shortcuts, and the right way to do it is learning the math and the assembly language and going like that.
This is just something I want to do. I want to stand around all those code gods and be like them (in the sense of coding and skill, not necessarily everything else). There's the old cypherpunk slogan "Cypherpunks code" and one way of learning to code is to just write code, but I want to have a track where I'm doing it the right way while I'm on the second track of actually writing stuff now.
I also find biology interesting and may take a minor (or double major) in that. I don't think I'll worry about job security much with a bachelors in Computer Science and Biology. Or even a Masters. Or Phd. I think one step at a time though.
One thing though is I want to do this. I would do this even if there was no material reward. I think that is something to think about. It would be nice if I could make more money, or get a job doing less braindead stuff, but if all that happened would be that I would know enough to contribute to the Linux kernel, or some free software projects which I like, that would be enough for me. After doing mindless BS wage slave stuff all day, it's nice to go home and do my own work where I can actually do what I want, even if I make no money at it. If I could make a living doing that stuff, so much the better, but I would go crazy if all I did was cog-in-the-machine mindless nonsense all day.
If you're a really good programmer, you can probably make a go of it on your own doing freelance work.
I tried that between 2001 and 2003. What you need for that isn't good programming- it's good business sense and a fair amount of ESP. You need to be a good enough judge of character to know who will pay their bill and who won't when you present that final invoice. Far too many failed to pay that final invoice- and no business can survive a 50% decrease in revenue in a single month unless you were independantly wealthy going in.
Unfortuneately most programmers- me included- went into this because we *don't* have good interpersonal skills, otherwise we would have been playing sports in high school instead of messing with computers.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
That's really true of most degrees, nevertheless, the structure of a formal academic environment helps many people to maintain the discipline to do it, often provides access to skilled instructors that make gaining understanding easier, generally increases the diversity of equipment and resources you have access to in the learning process, may, as a degree is something people often take note of, increase the material reward you get from it, and may make you eligible for additional financial assistance (which may or may not make up for the additional cost) and other benefits.
Whether those benefits are worthwhile for any particular person interested in getting an understanding of the field will, of course, vary from person to person.
As a professional software programmer for over 20 years, I'd advise anyone who wishes to still be programming professionally in their 50's to spend a summer selling used cars. Being able to sell yourself will be much more important in the later years of your career than your technical knowledge will be.
I'm tired of {system-,network-,db-} administration, programming, and every other trade skill getting equated with Computer Science. CS is a branch of theoretical mathematics and has very little to do with anything you can sit in front of, type into, click on, or reboot. And I don't mean this as a (serious) troll. I just hate to see the term misused, much like engineers cringe when they hear the building maintenance staff referred to as 'engineers', as in "we'll have an engineer bring some buckets up to put under that leak in the roof."
/End of Friendly Math Snob Rant
I have found there are just two ways to go.
It all comes down to livin' fast or dyin' slow. -REK, Jr.
Yeah, and you can become a particle physicist in your spare time too.
G.
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
- You got a poor quality degree (either from an institution with no reputation, or a low 2.2 or lower classification).
- You haven't done anything interesting with your time at university (join / run any student societies, etc).
- You haven't taken the opportunity to get any work experience (most universities run summer placement programmes, if you can be bothered to sign up).
You get out of university what you put into it. If you're just there to get a piece of paper, you will just get a piece of paper and it won't be much use to you.I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Yeah, and you can become a particle physicist in your spare time too.
Dang - and I picked quantum physics instead - oh well wrong/right again.
Was it right or wrong to pick quantum physics before I read the sentence?
Is this supposed to suggest that we're somehow "done" with computer science? Application is great and all, but it has basis in constantly evolving theory, just like in any basic science.
Don't be fooled. Application is important, but try doing your physics homework without understanding the underlying theory and see how far you get. If you want to be respected in the industry, and if you want to find a lifetime in computer technology fulfilling, get a degree in computer science.
If your career aspiration is "high paid code monkey," then ignore this post.
Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
I have a CS degree. I've got a high paying job. I found out I'm actually being paid way below average for my profession and location. I'm looking for another better job. There are plenty of them available, and they pay a lot. The key to being successful at CS is twofold. One, don't suck. Lots of people get CS degrees, but they actually don't give a crap about software. The people in college who code in their spare time for fun are the ones who succeed. The rest end up handling tech support calls. The second trick is to not insist on living somewhere crappy. You pretty much have to go to a major metropolitan area to get a job. You can't sit in hicksville and complain there aren't any programming jobs.
One other trick to being successful as a software engineer is to learn technologies in high demand. If you learn Ruby on Rails your chances of finding a hot job are pretty low. You might find work at a startup here and there, but that's about it. If you learn the J2EE platform, relational databases and all the associated stuff you are almost guaranteed to find a high paying job. Go look around on job sites, pretty much everyone is looking for Java Enterprise developers, but the supply is way low.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
So if by crappy you mean design, I don't think a degree in computer science will help. If you mean crappy as in functionality, a degree in computer science might help.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. ~Albert Einstein
And then there are the rest of us, who write well formated, well structured, well designed code every day, but never went to collage. We did what a LOT of people did in the 80's we picked up a copy of whatever language we could get our hands on and started teaching ourselves.
We read books, we looked at other peoples code, we experimented. We wrote our own Direct to Video Memory code to avoid the bios screen write functions.
But now we are in our late 40's and not hip and cool. We don't get hired because we don't have a piece of paper saying we know something, we just have massive amounts of code to back us up, but none of the under 30 hip cool crowd cares about that, its "You got your degree from where?" When I tell them SHK ( school of Hard Knocks ) as a joke and then tell them I am self taught, I get the "We want someone more qualified" What a bunch of horse shit.
Thats the biggest problem with our society, no one values experience, no one values wisdom gleaned from 25 years of doing the JOB.Most of us don't care for the latest and greatest Ruby on Rails or Roads or even a race track. We don't do cutting edge, we do what works, we do it most of the time under budget, ahead of schedule and in code that readable AND commented.
So we will keep writing code that supports what all you "Latest & Greatest" fan boys think is SO cool, when in fact its the exact same language we built so many years ago, with a cosmetic twist.
I guess the other thing that is SO fucking depressing is that most CS or even SE grads these days don't have a clue how to create anything unless its spoon fed to them in some object repository. I asked a recent CS graduate if he knew any assembler of ANY flavor. His response was, "Well we had about 2 hours of it and some theory", but other then that all he knew was Java and rudimentary C.
A pretty sad state of affairs if you ask me. And people wonder why companies outsource.
Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
I did CS and loved it. I loved the MATH (that's what it majorly is), I loved the programming, I loved having long hair and never shaving... I loved the whole degree. It was a fantastic degree and heightened my experience at university doing the stuff I love...
HOWEVER, who seriously does a degree with the mindset, "This is what I'll do for the rest of my life"? Few I think, especially those looking for a career. I graduated two years ago and my life has taken me out to Amsterdam to work for a large IT company, back to my home (the UK) and I write this now in San José. I'm 23 and I spend most of my time travelling the world. What am I doing? Technical sales...
It's not math, it's not programming... it's not even software engineering. It's not anything I did at university. The Indian and Chinese guys have that covered here. They're also better at it than I'd be. What I've got was learned in the bars, at the sports clubs and on the phone begging for more money to continue my degree (and buy more beer). That's something you can't teach someone in India to do... How to work with people in the states. This means no disrespect, but someone born in India isn't likely to come to the US and wow with his people, presentation and linguistic skills. Someone born in the UK isn't going to move to the US and understand the local people.
It's a people-focussed world. Your degree is a ticket. Make it relevent to your overall goals, but focus on the other special experiences university has to offer.
Now there's one hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is!