Company Claims New Chip Converts Heat To Electricity

Dster76 writes to tell us that the startup, Eneco, has invented a solid state energy conversion chip which they claim will be able to convert heat directly into electricity or reach temperatures of -200 C when given an electrical current. While such a device could revolutionize many aspects of computing I'll keep my skeptic hat on for the time being.

Comments

Energy conversion devices

[erroneus]

I don't know why the notion should be so foreign. If someone told you they created a solid state device that could convert light energy directly into electrical energy would you believe them? Yeah, probably, because you have seen these in action already. They are on just about every calculator out there now. But there was a time when they were just an idea and the topic of fiction.

The notion of using heat is so different? Surely the technology is quite different I'm sure, but I would not be quite so quick to be skeptical.

Re:Energy conversion devices

[rolfwind]

People are quite right to be skeptical or they will be fleeced every time a con artist announces a promises a great sounding technology. (BTW, this isn't the first time I read about someone promising similiar solid state chips on /.)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

That said, just because someone is a skeptic doesn't mean we are impossible to convince. Just show us the tech - put up or shut up, that simple. I think that is a fair test.

Afterall, it's good enough for skeptic James Randi with paranormal claims, it's good enough for me.

Re:Energy conversion devices

[Nos.]

True to a point. Until we find a way to make our CPUs run cooler, isn't it better to have something like this chip to at least recover some of that wasted energy than to use more energy (a fan) to cool it?

Re:Energy conversion devices

[kiatoa]

Sorry. Doesn't work that way. The application of this chip will push the temp of the device being cooled up even higher. If you care about the life of your semiconductor devices you will be trying to get them to run as cool as possible. Yes, even semiconductors wear out. Look up electromigration. Take any scenario and apply the thermoconversion device to it (heat direct to elec. is not new btw, don't all geeks make a copper/iron thermoelectric candle powered radio as a kid?) and compare with an equivalent cost best of breed heat sink and the theroconversion device will lose because the chip being cooled will be running hotter. It is the same thing as those guys who think they can put a steam or stirling engine into their cars and get better gas mileage. Sure you can do it but it doesn't make economical sense.

Re:Energy conversion devices

[squiggleslash]

If you expect me to believe number two, you must not only prove that the interstellar traveller ate the cookie, but you must also prove that you did NOT eat the cookie. And you must prove that you are not an interstellar traveller.

Now, hold on a moment. _Proving the first and the last of these should prove the second...

...unless you're trying to claim that it's possible to eat your cookie and have it eaten by an interstella travelled. That's an extraordinary claim to make, and I hope you have some extraordinary evidence to back it up!

Re:Energy conversion devices

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Peltiers are just thermocouples/thermopiles made of semiconductors. They are inefficient mainly because the material they're made of is a good enough heat conductor that it conducts most of the heat they've pumped back across the temperature gradient. Absent that they should be able to reach carnot cycle efficiency. Meanwhile, if you are willing to feed 'em the extra power (or accept that they generate

You can get cooling down to cryogenic temperatures just by building a pyramid of peltier cells (with progressively fewer couples in each layer), all interconnected electrically. This was done 'way back when they were first invented.

This device is a more efficient vacuum-tube version, using nanostructure field-emission needles for the cathodes and built in a microscopic form-factor using integrated-circuit manufacturing techniques. It does the same thing, but using electrons in vacuum. (The heat kicks them off the emitter with a momentum high enough for them to pass through a field to a more-negative collector plate.) A vacuum is a GREAT insulator, so the efficiency is much better. (Or pump heat by applying a voltage to encourrage the electrons to jump off the needles at thermal vibration peaks, cooling them, and smack into the collectors, heating them.)

Also: Since it is apparently built of metals and ceramics rather than semiconductors you can run it very hot - like at the focus of a solar concentrator. That can beat photovoltaics by a bunch.

I've seen reports of this device before. I presume this one means either they need more funding or they've just solved a manufacturing problem, bringing them a step closer to commercial rollout.

Re:Energy conversion devices

[Vellmont]

They would all restrict the flow of heat from the CPU to the heatsink, rendering it ineffective.

That's why you'd need a different design. I'm not a thermal engineer, and I presume you aren't either. But it's not really that unbelieveable that a cooling design could be implemented that would be able to do both at the same time.

Re:Energy conversion devices

[mrchaotica]

Of course after reading the article I noticed there is a cooling mode for the chip where rather than generating electricity, you actually feed it electricity, and it cools down the chip a lot more. That might be more efficient (and practical) than current heatsink-fan technology, but I'll wait till I see it with my own eyes.

You'll still need a heat sink because the temperature on the other side of the device (the one not cooling the CPU) will increase more than the amount the cool side decreases (because both the CPU and the electricity applied to the device contribute to the total energy of the system). In other words, let the temperature of your CPU when cooled by a heat sink be t0. If you use this device to cool the CPU to t0 - x degrees, then the temperature on the other side (cooled by the same heat sink that was attached to the CPU before) will be t0 + x + y degrees, where y represents the less-than-100% efficiency of the device itself.

However, there is a reason to do this: you can get the CPU cooler than it's possible to do with a heat sink alone. In particular, it can get the CPU to run cooler than ambient temperature (which a heat sink can only approach asymptotically). Extreme overclockers use this technique sometimes, but the downside is that you have to start worrying about condensation killing your electronics.

Re:Energy conversion devices

[ceoyoyo]

Suppose you have a CPU with a heat sink on it. Now you add a power generating chip between the CPU and the heat sink. Since this chip generates electricity it must be opposing the flow of heat. Therefore, heat will flow less well when the chip is present. Thus, heat will build up more on the CPU side than it would without the chip.

You can think of it like a hydroelectric dam (or water wheel) if you like. Water flows, then you stick something in the way -- in order for the paddle wheel or turbine to generate electricity it must oppose the flow of the water -- forcing it to do work.

Computing?

[PreacherTom]

Revolutionize computing? How about revolutionizing LIFE. If true, this would be larger than controlled fusion.

Long term plan ... what were they thinking?

[Josh Lindenmuth]

The device sounds legit (it certainly doesn't break any laws of physics), but Eneco's plan for its longterm usage is just loopy. They say they'll initially try to improve battery life by coupling it with processors to recoup energy lost as heat. Great startup plan, but then it goes downhill ... from the article:

Brown also sees the chips ultimately replacing batteries altogether. He argues that by linking the modules to a microburner - a catalytic burner that produces between 275 and 600 degrees centigrade you can heat the chips and generate enough power to run the device.

In theory this approach would be far cleaner as the burners that Eneco is planning to employ use Ethanol

So in other words, Eneco plans to replace our laptop batteries with small Ethanol burning stoves that run hotter than a car engine? How would this ever fly, given people are worried about their current laptops catching fire? Also, who wants to fill up their laptop with gas every couple days? Energy coming from the grid at least in theory can be from renewable sources (wind, solar, tides, etc.). Why push Ethanol, a fuel which cannot be used on a large scale (and arguably requires more energy to produce than it provides)? The only reason I can think of is that they are trying to ride the "Ethanol investing wave" that hit markets over the past couple years (and appears to be waning).

Hopefully investors will see through the zany longterm plan and focus on the merits of the product, it really does appear to be valuable across a wide range of industries.

Where is the energy going?

[jandrese]

Ok, so it converts latent heat into electricity, presumably working like a heat engine with the cold side fixed at absolute zero somehow? If you add energy, it gets even colder and produces...more energy? Is it just me or does this thing sound a lot like a perpetual motion machine component? Either this thing is bogus or the article is misleading as to what it actually does.

Peltier?

[Deflatamouse!]

The description sounds like a peltier to me. Apply some current, and the device generates a temperature differential.

Can a temperature differential cause the device to operate in reverse?

Carbon Neutral? Really??

[Freestyling]

I would also point out, that even if they were to deploy large numbers of ethanol burning "batteries" the amount of ethanol, and the purity required would mean that the only way to produce the ethanol would be through hydration of ethene. This involves reacting the ethene gas with steam at a high temperature and pressure, needing large amount of energy as well as the ethene as a raw ingredient from crude oil. I really don't see how that can be carbon neutral in any way.

Re:Second Law of Thermodynamics

[kfg]

The problem is that converting heat energy directly into electricity violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. . .What this device does is convert heat differentials into electricity. . .It makes electricity while heat flows through it.

You are confusing heat with temperature. Temperature is the energy content. Heat is its flow. This device converts temperature differentials into electricity; with heat.

KFG

I'm sceptical

[sinij]

If these guys are so brilliant to invent this solid state device why are they not so brilliant to see it potential uses. Let's see - portable nuclear generators since you no longer need to worry about turbines and cooling, combustion engine efficiency will skyrocket if you can recoup even portion of 60% of combustion energy wasted on heat , refrigeration and air conditioning will be trivial.

This chip, if it works = free energy for everyone, everywhere, and they work about battery life for laptops... wtf?

Re:Amd vs Intel

[hAckz0r]

Lets just think about this for a minute. CPU's generate heat, which is not a 100% efficient process. The device is 20-30% efficient even then. To get by on using an inefficient power source the CPU would have to be as efficient as possible. Once it is efficient enough to run on reduced power it will generate less heat, and thus less electrical power. See where this is going? It can't be a perpetual device if it runs at a net loss. If it can't be the only power source for the CPU why build it in? At best it will only convert SOME of the waste heat to run some other part of the computer. Cooling comes to mind because the power to run the cooling is directly related to the heat generated, but turning a mechanical fan would take perhaps more energy than the device could generate at that given temperature. The device itself needs cooling to work. It does not sound to me to be practical even for running that. At best it will require an external source of BTU's and cooling to power the device for a small payback in terms of electrical power.

What would make a difference if such a device could work for all wavelengths of radiation converting all nearby sources of light, radio, static RF, and heat into usable power. Not just a "solar cell" but a radiation rectifier. Even at 20% efficiency there would be plenty of energy to harness if the spectrum was wide enough.

Re:Yes but...

[Technician]

how long will it be before The Machines start using us to produce electricity?

Already hapening..

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http://www.ambientweather.com/emra.html

Aha!!! here's the killer application

[goombah99]

Okay now I'm replying to my own post. what I said was right. But the application is not for computer chips but for much hotter systems. Namely the application is for burining propane at 600 degrees C and converting that to electricity. In theory the themodynamic efficiency would be max of 50%. They claim that inpractice they might achieve 20 to 30%.
"The result is a solid state energy conversion chip that can operate at temperatures of up to 600 degrees celcius and deliver absolute efficiencies in terms of how much heat energy is converted to electricity of between 20 and 30 percent."

Now 20 to 30% conversion of a stored chemical fuel to electricity RIGHT ON A MICRO CHIP without any mechinaical engine is great. Good energy density even if you are giving up 80% of the energy. The only trick is figuring out how to chill the backside. But if you are only looking for small amounts of power maybe ambient chilling or convection is not so bad. Maybe you could even burn a little more chemical enerfy to power a turbine to cool it off.

Anyhow the uses for this are not microchips but very hot systems. And that's what makes it different from conventional peltier coolers: it's compact, monlithic, and runs so hot it can get good efficiency.

Re:Thermocouple

[Goaway]

Do you have any idea what "prior art" even means?

Re:It can and does work.

[ChrisMaple]

If they are actually getting efficiencies near 40%, and the devices aren't too bulky or heavy, you don't use it to enhance an internal combustion engine, you use it to replace an internal combustion engine. Burner, converter, electric motor, and the job's done. No more catalytic converters, mufflers, mandatory pollution tests. No periodic oil changes, starter motors, or alternators.