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iPod Has Nothing To Fear From Slow-Starting Zune
narramissic writes, "Looks like Apple's iPod has nothing to fear from Zune this holiday season. In a research note published Tuesday, PiperJaffray senior research analyst Gene Munster writes that 'during its launch week on Nov. 16, Zune held the seventh spot on online retailer Amazon.com's top 10 best-selling MP3 players list, and it fell from that spot to 13 on the list only five days after launch, on Nov. 20.' Even worse, only 8% of retailers surveyed by PiperJaffray recommend the Zune to customers, while 75% recommend Apple's iPod." The article notes Apple's 5-year headstart in the portable player market and Microsoft's stated intention to invest heavily in the Zune over the next several years.
Did M$ plan on having a flop out of the gate, planning on 2nd and 3rd generations to really go after the iPod? M$ never gets anything right the first time, so maybe it's not a big deal to them that it flopped?
How many Windows iPods were sold a few weeks after they hit the market?
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
Unfortunately the Zune seems to offer very little, and the feature that it should be known for takes a LONG time to implement. Sharing a song with another zune is as easy as the path the pinball takes on the sesame street number song.
It takes like a minute to share (squirt) a zune song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpHzQYKDlWU [youtube.com]
The thing I was wondering is this. I do not mind the squirting feature, it seems neat and probably could have been implemented in a more intuitive way (IE have a squirt button instead of traversing 3 menus and a submenu) but the idea itself is "ok." Though I do have a problem with "squirting" a song in reference to a player that looks like it was molded in shit.
So they have some possibilities for cool features! They have wireless... why do they not leverage it in more interesting ways.
As you can see in the video they can see other zune players, in fact it seems incredibly intuitive.
Now lets say that it is true wifi and could probably support 5 or 6 streams coming out of it... why do they not have some kind of "Zune broadcast" feature were people can look at zunes, see what they are broadcasting or who they are listening too, and let people tap into the music that way... maybe even have some sort of re-broadcast peer to peer feature were each zune re-broadcasts what it is playing if someone wants to listen to the same song...
This way if you knew a lot of zune friends you could have them sample the song before you squirt it into their zune... though even talking about the zune and squirting makes me kind of uncomfortable.
Also, since it has wifi, why do they not provide a program that lets your computer do the same thing... IE submit to someones current audio stream.
This is even "better" than bringing an ipod to a club and having them plug it in, you just bring your zune in, start your stream and the DJ could link into it. OR you could go to your house, have your computer plugged into a nice sound system, and have it plug into what your zune is playing, this would allow you to use the zune as sort of a music remote control were you have a nice interface in your hand.
Or it could be used the other way around, the computer could transmit music and the zune could log in and see the music being transmitted... Microsoft even has Media center edition which would be perfect for this kind of thing, or it could be a plug in to their current media player. This way people could come over, log their zunes into your computer network and listen to music rocking down the line.
Maybe internet radio, walk into a wifi cafe, set up your zune, and listen to radio streaming from a remote radio station that is on-line, NPR for example (though you might want to find one to your tastes ofc).
How about wireless synchronization with podcasts? Walk into a wifi area and hit "sync" and have it sync with all the podcasts you are behind on and then tell you which ones you haven't listened to yet.
Maybe they could work with an online video provider similar to youtube and hook up a method to stream user videos to the zune in an easy fashion, something that would nearly be a killer app for anything.
Imagine a youtube branded mediaplayer with wireless access (maybe even work with phone companies for EVDO support) were someone could log into youtube and download youtube videos right to their phone.
I mean, the possibilities are ENDLESS and OBVIOUS. You merely have to think "man what would I love to do with a wireless capable player that can be locked into a major brand and legally buy music for" etc... and it seems Microsoft chose one interesting feature to focus on and implement poorly (squirting) and then made it so that the player broke every compatibility rule that you can think of, and made a SONY mistake were it changes format and requires that you re-purchase to play.
In the end you have to ask yourself "WTF"
and note, all of this is without the criticism of making blood contracts with record companies etc... it is saying "here are the things you made me hope you would provide, then you provided... this"
If you don't vote, you don't matter, so don't waste your time telling me your opinion
One of the Microsoft Zune people was talking about the company's original plans for the product on one of the company discussion/bitch boards a few months ago. He stated that the originally the Zune was going to be funded/subsidized with 360 money but that plan went up in smoke with the mess the 360 turned out to be - the massive extra cost for all the defective consoles and the low sales of the console(worse than the first Xbox).
He indicated that the profits from the 360 were supposed to give used to undercut Apple's iPod prices by a significant amount. But that the continue massive Xbox losses made the Zune come out at a higher price than originally intended. And that the days of Microsoft just throwing billions away to gain marketshare were over.
Let me preface this by saying that I am actually a fan of Apple and I hope that I am dead wrong on this. But look what they did with the XBox, Web Servers, and Browser. Microsoft always tends to start slow with a crappy product and take heavy losses. Over time, they'll leverage Vista and everything else they can to turn the Zune into a household name. Apple is in a good position at the moment, but all it takes is one mistake.
In my opinion, Sony screwed the pooch with the PS-3 and MS took advantage of it. With the war chest they have, they do not need a better product. They only need to be able to win a war of attrition.
I had every intention of flaming you, but you are right. These sales figures show that it took over a year for iPod to really take off.
an ill wind that blows no good
Microsoft duds - Bob, Windows at Work. Fair enough.
OTOH, Office succeeded more because it was a bundle for less than the cost of WP plus 1-2-3. Oh, and all components looked the same (thanks to being Windows based), and worked more similarly, so learning one meant that learning another had already started. And there were "extras" (Org Chart and so on). Despite how good technically 1-2-3 V3 and WP5.1 were, they were arcane to learn.
As for Zune, well it looks as though Microsoft used Taco's review of the iPod and stopped all thought there. No WiFi - well ours has. Smaller than an Archos - well ours is bigger. Lame - well...
"She's furniture with a pulse"
If these are the people that Microsoft is relying on to sell the Zune to the masses, they are seriously outgunned by the hordes of iPod lovers.
What do Mac users have to do with it? The vast majority of iPod owners are using Windows.
... and then they built the supercollider.
The fact is that Microsoft should be big enough player to dictate to the RIAA how things are going to be rather than the other way around. Even Apple, substantially smaller, bullied them effectively.
Bullying? The labels are making more off itunes than Apple is. I think Jobs found a workable arrangement that attracts customers, pays the labels, and manages to not lose Apple much money. If the labels made a bigger cut of the same amount Apple would lose more. If Apple jacked up the prices to appease the greedy labels it would probably drive customers away, encourage more p2p, and the labels would end up getting a lot less.
On the go alot? Don't care if you have massive quantities of albums with you at all times?
Get a Rio Carbon! I've had my 5-gigger for roughly 3 years now. I used to use it when working on cars (I was a professional mechanic) dropped it upwards of 20-30 times. Thing still works PERFECTLY. Drag-and-drop, no software required. Hooks up using a standard mini-USB cable, 20 hours on one charge, can also be used out of the box as a portable hard drive...small as shit. Easily controlled using one thumb, MUCH faster interface than the clumsy "touch-ring" Ipod.
On the road alot? Still want those 20gigs?
Get a Rio Karma! Same easy to use interface as a Carbon, COMES with a docking station that A. Has USB 2.0 and Ethernet hookups (so you can hook it directly into your network, turning it into a digital jukebox) and B. Has RCA line-outs so you can hook it up directly to your stereo. Have had mine for about 2.5 years, works perfect, looks fantastic, and fits inside the palm of your hand (i.e. won't overlap the base of your fingers...yes I know not all hands are equal size, but my hands are fairly small)
Oh and did I mention? Both the Carbon AND the Karma can play nearly any audio format!
Seriously. I never understood the whole Ipod thing. To me, they have always been and always will be overpriced "look at me" gadgets designed for a generation too stupid to know that no matter how much reflective plastic you cover shit with, it is still shit.
Living With a Nerd
Personally, I think the zune is a superior product to the Ipod. Not being taken in by the 'something-new' placebo, I simply like it. The Zune handles pictures better than the Ipod. Likewise with movies with the horizontal orientation. The menu system was much easier to figure out and isn't a PITA to work with opposed to the clickwheel which is more-so oversensitive than being useful for scrolling through large song lists. The Zune will start slow because it will take a while for people to get their heads OFF of the Ipod and to see the Zune for what it is. The IPOD was slow because of it's price... when people saw their friends with one and realized what a product it was, then it took off. I say likewise with the Zune. My problem is that "Zune" is too close to "Zen"...
This is a trick question right? Every version of iTunes ever can play and rip *gasp* DRM-less files. The mp3 files I ripped using iTunes will play in any mp3 capable app or hardware.
Oh, you meant the iTunes Music Store? Have you even heard about the DRM in the Zune? Oh that's right, you wanted to excuse the DRM issue on the Zune and only talk about Apple's DRM. If you want to say Apple's is bad you have to show how MS' is better. Were you asleep when everyone was talking about the Zune automatically wrapping music in DRM even if that music was given away by the creater for free? Sorry, the DRM in Zune is MORE restrictive. But that's okay as long as it's not the evil Apple empire, right?
"This one is better, it goes to eleven." Wow, and I thought that was just satire, but people like this really do exist. Okay, you got me. The Zune has a longer feature list. Even if the feature is crap.
Okay. You got me here too. You like your device on its side. Hey, good for you. You can have the Zune I'm not buying.
MS fanboy are we? You may not like the iPod, that's your choice. But the fact of the matter is that Apple nailed the market. They didn't do that by leveraging their dominance in any other market. They have no dominance anywhere else. They didn't do it by introducing crap and refining it over the past 5 years. The iPod was a hit from year one. They did that by creating a product that works well, consistantly and with style.
"The avalanch has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote." -Kosh
The reason they probably don't yet stream music is because they've not yet solved the WiFi buzz (audio noise) you get from enabling wireless on a Zune...
Read about it on a blog that listed the top ten ways Microsoft could improve the Zune.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
How hard can it be to produce a decent player, really?
The market in portable MP3 players has been around for a fair few years now. The iPod runs the show because it does what Most People want to do, in a nice friendly way, and is brilliantly marketed. There are a thousand and one players on the market for Everybody Else, which offer more functionality, better sound quality, less DRM restrictions, lower price, whatever. Pretty much every single one of these competitors is deficient on the usability front, and most of them have some head-slappingly bad UI howlers that make you wonder just what the hell they were thinking when they designed it, or indeed whether they were thinking at all.
And then, having had years to learn from everybody else, good and bad, Microsoft rocks up with the Zune. Oops.
Why can't they, and everybody else, understand what makes for a good portable music player? Why do they give Apple such an easy ride? The iPod really isn't any great shakes, it's just that the competition is mostly rotten. With each revison Apple have done just enough to keep half a step ahead - for example, the rather fudged implementation of gapless playback that finally arrived with the last updates took away one of the main reasons why I personally wouldn't buy one (seriously, folks, if there's no gaps between the tracks on the CD, and your player puts them in, that is a bug. Fix it. And yes, I know MP3s can't really do true gapless).
Really, Apple's market dominance is there for the taking. All it takes is a bit of application. Why can't anybody come up with the goods?
As to why the implementation itself isn't more widely available on the players, I have to admit it's a complete mystery to me as well. My first player (CD based) predated the format so my oldest rips are in MP3. Then my (now lost) iRiver supported Vorbis, then I briefly had a Creative which didn't (and which I didn't like for that and mostly other reasons so I'm selling it), and the Cowon I currently use supports it. Now I have a mix of MP3 and OGG Vorbis in my collection. OTOH I never buy any music online, I only rip the CDs I buy and I don't really get into the trendy player thing (my Cowon A2 might be bulky but does lots of things, plays the radio and runs Linux
The lack of Vorbis support is a bit of a puzzle. At one point it was supposed to be because it required a lot of floating point math that the CPUS wouldn't support, but I think there's an integer implementation now. Presumably it's just inertia and NIH. I understand that nobody would make a Vorbis only player, but not even adding it on top of the other formats... Too little perceived advantage vs. the work that would have to be invested for the codec integration I suppose. Shame.
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
The Zune hardware is not too bad. Some reviews have actually said it's really pretty good. The problem is that you don't try to take on the market leader with a device that is about as good for the same price. Esp if it's larger, heavier, and has less battery. The biggest "cool factor", the WiFi isn't even remotely useful until there is a critical mass of Zune in the wild. If you want to squirt stuff from your Zune you have to find someone else who has one.
But it's not flying off the shelves. It's NOT EVEN ON some shelves. It will fall off the Amazon top 100 in the next few days. The iPod is 5 or 6 of the Amazon top ten electronics sellers. The #1 at Amazon has firmly been an iPod for weeks. (Zune was #94 last I checked)
And Microsoft has done everything right. They were able to convince the entire non-iPod MP3 player industry to adopt Plays-For-Sure so they could all be put out of Microsofts way at once and they STILL can't outsell Creative's player.
Would you do business with them after they lured you into Plays-For-Sure?
They were carefull to pay off the RIAA through Universal Music for each Zune sold. The RIAA gets their money when you pay at the cash register. That way people can know they are doing the right thing.
Everyone who wants to send a buck to the RIAA by buying a Zune raise your hand!
They did a lot of focus groups and their ads had the right mix of Black, White, Asian, women, men, young, and old in their "Welcome to the Social" ads which feature some kind of music player. Did their ads really inform anybody about the Zune? Why I want one instead of an iPod?
They carefully came up with a misleading "points" scheme to cloud how much a song costs and to force consumers to leave a few cents on the table for each purchase. This is sure to appeal to the average buyer.
The only one who deserves a Brown Zune for Christmas is Bill Gates.
It could be that the people likely to spend $200+ on an MP3 player already have. And once you decide on your brand of MP3 player you get locked into that ecosystem (plays for sure/Fair Play). Even if your looking to upgrade your not going to want to loose all your music. It will be interesting to see if the market place will even tolerate what is essentially 3 type of audio. But don't count Microsoft out they have nearly unlimited cash and almost every marked they dominate today they entered late and up against a very well entrenched foe.
Apple beat them to the desktop computer and the GUI OS
Novel beat them to the Network Server OS
Lotus and WP beat them to the Word Processor and Office Suite
Netscape beat them to the Web Browser
Apple and then Palm beat them to the PDA
In all of these areas they were at a huge disadvantage and yet now are the undisputed leaders. So far it looks like only Google has been able to hold them off when Microsoft decides they want to enter an industry. Never underestimate what Billions of dollars and mindless determination will get you.
Of course we will have to wait until the 3rd Gen Zune before they iPod has to really worry
This is a sincere question, not a troll: What's the appeal of the iPod in the first place?
I'm 40 years old, so it goes without saying that I'm completely uncool, out of touch, etc... but I don't get it.
I bought my wife a little Sony MP3 player for roughly $100. It does pretty much everything that an iPod does, at half the price but with less "style". So why do people pay the premium for an iPod? Just to look cool? Or is there something truly unique about the iPod that I don't understand. I mean it's basically a CF card hooked to a D-A converter with a bit of software glue, right? What magic does Apple add that makes the iPod so appealing?
The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.