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iPod Has Nothing To Fear From Slow-Starting Zune

narramissic writes, "Looks like Apple's iPod has nothing to fear from Zune this holiday season. In a research note published Tuesday, PiperJaffray senior research analyst Gene Munster writes that 'during its launch week on Nov. 16, Zune held the seventh spot on online retailer Amazon.com's top 10 best-selling MP3 players list, and it fell from that spot to 13 on the list only five days after launch, on Nov. 20.' Even worse, only 8% of retailers surveyed by PiperJaffray recommend the Zune to customers, while 75% recommend Apple's iPod." The article notes Apple's 5-year headstart in the portable player market and Microsoft's stated intention to invest heavily in the Zune over the next several years.

81 of 422 comments (clear)

  1. The Zune is brown by The+evil+doctor+Matt · · Score: 3, Funny

    The Zune is brown... Grandpa used to tell me, "No matter how much you polish a turd..." Poor MS hopefully Zune 2.0 ditches DRM, plays all formats and breaks all of the rules iPods live by. Untill then... It's the iPod for me!

    1. Re:The Zune is brown by eclectro · · Score: 2, Funny

      The Zune is brown..

      You would think that they would have been popular with the UPS delivery guys.

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    2. Re:The Zune is brown by RobertLTux · · Score: 3, Funny

      No they like things that actually deliver

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
  2. Did they plan on this? by TrippTDF · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Did M$ plan on having a flop out of the gate, planning on 2nd and 3rd generations to really go after the iPod? M$ never gets anything right the first time, so maybe it's not a big deal to them that it flopped?

    1. Re:Did they plan on this? by Knuckles · · Score: 5, Informative

      What about it? It lost 4 billion dollars and finished a tiny bit ahead of the Gamecube in market share.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    2. Re:Did they plan on this? by The+evil+doctor+Matt · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What about this angle... Make a useless piece of crap, enable lots O' DRM, give kickbacks to RIAA, lose lots of money... Take 2: Well sorry RIAA, we lost too much money and your way hurt our business model. This time around we are going to use no DRM, have a 200GB drive, play lots of formats and enable wireless sharing between all users. We'll also throw in the ability to download demo's and free singles at music stores for FREE. Maybe we'll also integrate it with Vista so that you can store your user profile and bring it with you. Then we'll add some motion controlled rings that you can wear to interact with the player... O yea don't forget the wimax connection nationwide and the ability to use it with our new VoIP system... Just imagine the possibilities...

    3. Re:Did they plan on this? by jandrese · · Score: 4, Funny

      Also, each one comes with a free pony.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    4. Re:Did they plan on this? by pilgrim23 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I downloaded the Zune SW with Firefox (that was an experience in itself). I then downloaded it with IE 6. Both on a XP box SP1. I was curious... the IE 6 download quikly, the firefox took a good 2 minutes.... now here is the interesting thing: the splash screen for the installon a SP 2 box has a background like a scene from Woodstock. The background on a SP1 box install that says "Zune needs an update" Your version of Windows or Zune software may need an update. Windows Vista support is comiong zoon (It can't tell XP SP1 from Vista?)... Ok the Background picture that honestly looks like.... a young oriental women being raped. Try It I am NOT making this up...

      --
      - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    5. Re:Did they plan on this? by badasscat · · Score: 5, Funny

      What about it? It lost 4 billion dollars and finished a tiny bit ahead of the Gamecube in market share.

      Yeah, MS seems to have perfected the business model of losing billions of dollars and coming in a very distant second.

      The Zune's got the Sansa in its sights!

    6. Re:Did they plan on this? by leonmergen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The XBox still hasn't gotten it right in terms of market acceptance.

      Maybe that's because there will always be a group of people that simply won't buy an Xbox because it's made by Microsoft ?

      --
      - Leon Mergen
      http://www.solatis.com
    7. Re:Did they plan on this? by DingerX · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I wrote up some conspiracy theory on this, just for the hell of it.

      It boils down to this: What about the ROKR? When that came out, people were digging up every possible excuse for why it was a good idea. Well, it probably wasn't -- but it did have some positive reverberations.

      Same for the Zune. It'll flop tremendously. But the Zune people have put WiFi on a media player. Their failure will scare off anyone else trying to do so. At the same time, they've suppressed their gag reflex around the **AAs so that they can go back and say, "look, we tried it 'your way'. It didn't work, and we lost millions. The next version is going to give the features the consumer is clamoring for." They can say that, and _not_ be accused of piracy.

      But yeah, more likely, the Zune will sink into much-deserved obscurity.

    8. Re:Did they plan on this? by otis+wildflower · · Score: 2, Funny

      Also, each one comes with a free pony.

      OMG PONIEZ!!!!!!!

    9. Re:Did they plan on this? by soft_guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The XBox still hasn't gotten it right in terms of market acceptance.

      Maybe that's because there will always be a group of people that simply won't buy an Xbox because it's made by Microsoft ?

      Either that, or maybe the XBox is a piece of crap. One or the other.
      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
    10. Re:Did they plan on this? by Phisbut · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Maybe that's because there will always be a group of people that simply won't buy an Xbox because it's made by Microsoft ?

      Despite what we would like to believe, the group of people who don't buy stuff made by Microsoft is very, very small. They don't make a difference.

      --
      After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
      - The Tao of Programming
    11. Re:Did they plan on this? by Ucklak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Or just overpriced junk with no family friendly titles.

      There are seriously no family friendly titles in the vein of Mario Kart for XBox.

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    12. Re:Did they plan on this? by mstone · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A loss-leader for what?

      The Xbox makes sense as a loss-leader because the games themselves are a revenue stream worth chasing. But with Apple holding song prices at just-above-breaking-even level, there's no secondary sale for the Zune to loss-lead.

      Apple uses the iTunes store as a value-added proposition for iPod sales, and takes its profit from the hardware sale. The music is a not-quite-loss leader for the device.

      How is Microsoft supposed to carve out a profitable market by selling the hardware at a loss and making just enough on music sales to keep its online store running?

    13. Re:Did they plan on this? by vought · · Score: 2, Insightful

      People are obviously stupid enough to buy iPods that are crippled by FairPlay

      This statement (if you really believe it and aren't just spreading FUD) is enough for me to discount the entirety of your post.

      The iPod doesn't require FairPlay or iTMS files to play. It plays .mp3 as well as AAC, AIFF, etc. There is nothing inherent in the iPod that requires DRM or DRM files of any sort.

      If you really think otherwise, please return your "geek" credentials at the door. You know next to nothing about how the leading music players works.

    14. Re:Did they plan on this? by el+cisne · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Also, MS is not able to buy out Bungie to get an exclusive on a very highly anticipated product and use it to propel their console sales. I don't know if there is the likes of a Bungie or a Halo for the Zune. Would X-Box have had the 'success' it has to date were it not for it's exclusive control of Halo? Unless Zune buys out the music/movie labels and makes the content Zune-only, I don't think there is much they can do other than pump it, hype it, astroturf it, and sell it at a loss for years, hoping to one day have enough relevance to poison the market. If they can't control the well, they'll glady poison it so no one else can control or even share it.

    15. Re:Did they plan on this? by cypherz · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Apple iTMS DRM is ridiculously easy to remove. It sucks that there's any DRM in the world, but Apple's implementation is about the least insidious out there. It doesn't require any hacks to remove at all. Just burn to CD, and re-rip. iTunes retains the tag info and the mp3 files have no DRM.
      DRM on iTMS files is almost a non-issue.

      --
      This sig kills fascists.
    16. Re:Did they plan on this? by seanadams.com · · Score: 3, Funny

      Ok the Background picture that honestly looks like.... a young oriental women being raped.

      I'd say she looks rather disoriented...

    17. Re:Did they plan on this? by plover · · Score: 2, Informative
      Ripping music introduces distortions. Re-ripping music adds really big distortions. Highs are chopped, and nothing is crisp. Bright cymbals sound like clanging old beer cans. Snare drums sound like toms. Pianos sound like Casio keyboards. And Bob Dylan's vocals are more like sand than gravel. :-)

      The reason is simple: AAC is a lossy compression format. It's pretty good for what it is, but it introduces distortions of its own, and it does lose clarity. When you burn it to an audio CD, you're creating a WAV file that is a reproduction of the compressed music, not of the original. It's no worse than AAC, but it can be no better. Now let's re-rip it. MP3 is also a lossy compression format, and most encoders I've heard (even lame, which is the best I've played with) are a lot worse at fidelity than AAC. What was simply muddy before is now compressed mud.

      Visually, it's the equivalent of looking at a VGA-resolution printout of the Mona Lisa. You can recognize it, you can use it for a background picture on a web site or a TV show, but you could never hang it on your wall and enjoy it.

      If all you use music for is "pleasant background noise", have at it. Re-rip until your iPod is stuffed. But if you enjoy your music, you're going to be extremely disappointed in the quality that results.

      --
      John
  3. Maybe by eclectro · · Score: 4, Funny

    if it could have squirted ogg, it might have done better.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    1. Re:Maybe by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't kid yourself. It might have sold better in the FOSS-supporting Windows market, but that's not a huge market. The Zune would have been helped by having PlaysForSure compatibility, and Linux/Mac compatibility. Ogg is going to be at best 1% of the market, and it's going to be the 1% least likely to buy anything Microsoft.

    2. Re:Maybe by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's an educated guess. If 2-3% of total home desktops run Linux (since most of Linux's market share is in server set-ups, both figures are again, educated guesses), and 33%-50% of Linux users will only use an OGG-supporting player (which seems not-unreasonable, as many Linuxers install questionable codecs anyways), then you get about 1% of the market. That's likely optimistic. But even if it's 2% of the market they're losing, that X% consists of ideologically motivated Linux users, who think that 1) most MS products suck (because of bad Windows experiences) and/or 2) hate Microsoft for various other reasons (just like I boycott Sony hardware), and also likely 3) hate the DRM and the whole Zune points, and all that sort of stuff. They wouldn't buy a Zune, so there's not much point in pursuing them.

  4. Honestly by MiKM · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Did anybody seriously expect the Zune to gain a lot of market share?

  5. Well... ok by Aqua+OS+X · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How many Windows iPods were sold a few weeks after they hit the market?

    --
    "Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
    1. Re:Well... ok by BeerCat · · Score: 2, Funny

      How many Windows iPods were sold a few weeks after they hit the market?

      Enough, obviously.

      --
      "She's furniture with a pulse"
    2. Re:Well... ok by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's a totally different issue though. Back then, MP3 players were relatively rare. Today, almost everyone has at least played with one (if they don't own one), and there are tens of millions on the streets (in the US alone). Back then, iPod sales were slow because MP3 player sales were slow.

  6. Zune has so much promise by Buzz_Litebeer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Unfortunately the Zune seems to offer very little, and the feature that it should be known for takes a LONG time to implement. Sharing a song with another zune is as easy as the path the pinball takes on the sesame street number song.

    It takes like a minute to share (squirt) a zune song

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpHzQYKDlWU [youtube.com]

    The thing I was wondering is this. I do not mind the squirting feature, it seems neat and probably could have been implemented in a more intuitive way (IE have a squirt button instead of traversing 3 menus and a submenu) but the idea itself is "ok." Though I do have a problem with "squirting" a song in reference to a player that looks like it was molded in shit.

    So they have some possibilities for cool features! They have wireless... why do they not leverage it in more interesting ways.

    As you can see in the video they can see other zune players, in fact it seems incredibly intuitive.

    Now lets say that it is true wifi and could probably support 5 or 6 streams coming out of it... why do they not have some kind of "Zune broadcast" feature were people can look at zunes, see what they are broadcasting or who they are listening too, and let people tap into the music that way... maybe even have some sort of re-broadcast peer to peer feature were each zune re-broadcasts what it is playing if someone wants to listen to the same song...

    This way if you knew a lot of zune friends you could have them sample the song before you squirt it into their zune... though even talking about the zune and squirting makes me kind of uncomfortable.

    Also, since it has wifi, why do they not provide a program that lets your computer do the same thing... IE submit to someones current audio stream.

    This is even "better" than bringing an ipod to a club and having them plug it in, you just bring your zune in, start your stream and the DJ could link into it. OR you could go to your house, have your computer plugged into a nice sound system, and have it plug into what your zune is playing, this would allow you to use the zune as sort of a music remote control were you have a nice interface in your hand.

    Or it could be used the other way around, the computer could transmit music and the zune could log in and see the music being transmitted... Microsoft even has Media center edition which would be perfect for this kind of thing, or it could be a plug in to their current media player. This way people could come over, log their zunes into your computer network and listen to music rocking down the line.

    Maybe internet radio, walk into a wifi cafe, set up your zune, and listen to radio streaming from a remote radio station that is on-line, NPR for example (though you might want to find one to your tastes ofc).

    How about wireless synchronization with podcasts? Walk into a wifi area and hit "sync" and have it sync with all the podcasts you are behind on and then tell you which ones you haven't listened to yet.

    Maybe they could work with an online video provider similar to youtube and hook up a method to stream user videos to the zune in an easy fashion, something that would nearly be a killer app for anything.

    Imagine a youtube branded mediaplayer with wireless access (maybe even work with phone companies for EVDO support) were someone could log into youtube and download youtube videos right to their phone.

    I mean, the possibilities are ENDLESS and OBVIOUS. You merely have to think "man what would I love to do with a wireless capable player that can be locked into a major brand and legally buy music for" etc... and it seems Microsoft chose one interesting feature to focus on and implement poorly (squirting) and then made it so that the player broke every compatibility rule that you can think of, and made a SONY mistake were it changes format and requires that you re-purchase to play.

    In the end you have to ask yourself "WTF"

    and note, all of this is without the criticism of making blood contracts with record companies etc... it is saying "here are the things you made me hope you would provide, then you provided... this"

    --
    If you don't vote, you don't matter, so don't waste your time telling me your opinion
    1. Re:Zune has so much promise by Buzz_Litebeer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, upon reviewing it, it took about 40 - 45 seconds with two people demoing and hitting the buttons in correct order.

      One person sent it, then the other sent it back.

      I could easily see doing it in a couple of seconds, just click on the song playing or in a list, hit "send" and then send it.

      Or why even do that, just put it as "share" and share it with whoever wants it in the room. They could log into your zune list and just grab the song if they think it is neat. Think of the ultimate collaborative experience.

      --
      If you don't vote, you don't matter, so don't waste your time telling me your opinion
    2. Re:Zune has so much promise by bobringer · · Score: 3, Funny
      The obvious feature to me would be some kind of short-range instant messaging. Of course, entering text with so few buttons could be tricky.
      That's been invented already... it's called speech
    3. Re:Zune has so much promise by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The problem is the approach Microsoft takes is "What can we do to squeeze money out of people" rather than "What do people want and are willing to pay for." The headline 'feature' smacks of exactly that. Certainly they thought of all sorts of things, but they didn't fit in the "what's in it for us?" mentality.

      The RIAA must have ben thinking "Finally! Someone who understands our point of view! OK, here what you do...."

    4. Re:Zune has so much promise by NoMaster · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I have a very hard time believing that even Microsoft could have implemented the concept of sharing this poorly.
      It's easy to believe, but you're hampered by MS' deliberate use of confusing terminology.

      "Squirting" isn't "sharing". "Sharing" is a term the ??AA's have invested millions of dollars in, trying to convince people that it's not an altruistic expression of consideration or caring between fellow humans, but is something which is evil and wrong.

      Because the term "sharing" has been poisoned by that campaign, MS came up with "squirting". Close you're eyes, and you can imagine the process - the marketing execs sitting around in a development meeting, Zune mockups in hand, pointing them at each other and going "Zap! I've just sent a song to Ellen's Zune! Whoah! Roger has just shared one with me!"

      "Hang on Peter, we can't say 'shared' - sharing copyrighted songs is illegal. We need to come up with something else; a term we can sell to the RIAA that sounds good but really means 'we'll give you just enough to make you want to buy it'. Throw some ideas on the table, and we'll run them up the flagpole and see who salutes."

      "You mean, like ... advertising?"

      "Exactly, Roger, but that's already taken. I'm thinking more like 'shooting' ... no, there's negative connotations there, and we'll never be able to sell them in Littleton, Colorado or Nickle Mines, Pa. What about ... squirting?"

      <chorus>"Good idea, boss!</chorus>

      ... You get the idea ...

      Squirting isn't supposed to be sharing; squirting is supposed to be advertising . Keep that in mind...

      Now the rest is easy to figure out. People won't do your advertising for you for nothing - there needs to be some sort of payoff. People wear logo'd shirts because they get paid off in "cool by association", drink Heineken because they're Euro-cool compared to Bud-drinking Nascar troglodytes, and wear Air Jordans because they make weedy 5' 11" white boy nerds more like the greatest basketballer to ever grace the court. But people can't see you "squirting" advertising around with your Zune - and if people can't see how cool you are, it's not worth doing.

      The solution? Make them have to come and ask you to send it to them. Instant cred payoff...

      --
      What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
  7. Seriously. by windex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The iPod has remained relativley the same across all releases. It still does then what it does now. It still works in generally the same way.

    If Microsoft wants to touch that, they need an interface most people understand and prefer to the iPod, and they need to STICK TO IT. Ease of use and knowing the tricks to an iPod are part of what keeps people buying them again and again. Knowing Microsoft every revision of the hardware will be wildly different from the last, breaking any device-bound loyalty people have.

  8. CNN review of the Zune by roscivs · · Score: 3, Funny

    Somebody posted this in a previous Slashdot story, I thought it was worth repeating:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=T10L9ybstps

    Basically it ends up being an advertisement for the new iPod shuffle. Interesting to see how "the masses" are reacting to the Zune.

    --
    ~ roscivs
    1. Re:CNN review of the Zune by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Funny

      If that review is any indication, I don't think "Zuned" is going to mean what Microsoft wants it to mean. Rather than hearing, "Dude, I just Zuned you a song" you're going to hear, "Dude, CNN just Zuned Microsoft."

      Besides the iPod Shuffle tangent, my favorite part of that video was, "Why don't they get some decent design people to make things look better?" Ouch!

  9. Give it time... by gentlemen_loser · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Let me preface this by saying that I am actually a fan of Apple and I hope that I am dead wrong on this. But look what they did with the XBox, Web Servers, and Browser. Microsoft always tends to start slow with a crappy product and take heavy losses. Over time, they'll leverage Vista and everything else they can to turn the Zune into a household name. Apple is in a good position at the moment, but all it takes is one mistake.

    In my opinion, Sony screwed the pooch with the PS-3 and MS took advantage of it. With the war chest they have, they do not need a better product. They only need to be able to win a war of attrition.

    1. Re:Give it time... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Interesting
      But look what they did with the XBox, Web Servers, and Browser. Microsoft always tends to start slow with a crappy product and take heavy losses.

      Xbox: Anytime a company is willing to take billions in losses to get marketshare, the product should be able to place better than 2nd place to the PS2.

      IIS: Even though it is bundled with Windows Server, it still is second place to Apache.

      IE: Ahem, didn't they get sued by leveraging their monopoly on this one?

      So far none of the examples succeeded on their own merits.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    2. Re:Give it time... by badasscat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But look what they did with the XBox

      They didn't do jack with the Xbox. In fact, I'd have to say the whole Xbox project has been a colossal failure by almost any definition.

      They spent a total of more than $6 billion on the system. They have so far made back $2 billion of that.

      With that $6 billion, they managed to buy 20% of Sony's market share and about 10% of the overall industry's market share. Yes, the PS2 outsold the Xbox by 5:1 worldwide.

      The Xbox 360, now, is still being outsold by the PS2, and it's behind the sales curve of the original Xbox. This is 2006. They couldn't beat the PS2 with their old console and they can't beat it with their new console. The 360 is also behind sales projections by about 3 million units - and has been an even worse failure in Japan than the original system.

      Now that the PS3 and Wii are on the market, it will be interesting to see what happens, but the 360 has already never once been the best-selling system, and that was with no current-gen competition! It would be like MS putting out the iPod and Sony beating them with a Discman. This is the best MS and their billions can do?

      You would *hope* anybody spending $6 billion, losing $4 billion in the process, would end up with more than 10-20% market share. But that's likely to be the pattern with the Zune as well. No doubt we'll get people in here once they've cracked 10% market share labeling the Zune a "success" too.

  10. Ugly by 42Penguins · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The thing is just plain ugly. Aside from the technical concerns (DRM, extremely limited wi-fi, sideways viewing) just look at it: brown, gray, or dull black. And it's blockier than even the 1G iPod.

    As superficial as it sounds, Apple has right idea for a big seller: make it shiny, make it smooth.

    1. Re:Ugly by 4iedBandit · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Point me to a version of iTunes without DRM from Apple please.

      This is a trick question right? Every version of iTunes ever can play and rip *gasp* DRM-less files. The mp3 files I ripped using iTunes will play in any mp3 capable app or hardware.

      Oh, you meant the iTunes Music Store? Have you even heard about the DRM in the Zune? Oh that's right, you wanted to excuse the DRM issue on the Zune and only talk about Apple's DRM. If you want to say Apple's is bad you have to show how MS' is better. Were you asleep when everyone was talking about the Zune automatically wrapping music in DRM even if that music was given away by the creater for free? Sorry, the DRM in Zune is MORE restrictive. But that's okay as long as it's not the evil Apple empire, right?

      While the Zune has limited Wi-Fi, iPod has NONE.

      "This one is better, it goes to eleven." Wow, and I thought that was just satire, but people like this really do exist. Okay, you got me. The Zune has a longer feature list. Even if the feature is crap.

      Sideways viewing :

      Okay. You got me here too. You like your device on its side. Hey, good for you. You can have the Zune I'm not buying.

      Apple fanboy are we?

      MS fanboy are we? You may not like the iPod, that's your choice. But the fact of the matter is that Apple nailed the market. They didn't do that by leveraging their dominance in any other market. They have no dominance anywhere else. They didn't do it by introducing crap and refining it over the past 5 years. The iPod was a hit from year one. They did that by creating a product that works well, consistantly and with style.

      --
      "The avalanch has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote." -Kosh
    2. Re:Ugly by soft_guy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Point me to a version of iTunes without DRM from Apple please.If you use your own CDs and/or plain MP3s with iTunes, there is no DRM. If you use your own CDs with Zune, DRM is added to your files. If you are using non-DRMed MP3s from Creative Commons, this violates the terms of the copyright. If you are using MP3s from your own band, it is a pain in the ass.

      With Apple, you can at least choose not to have DRM by not using the iTMS. And actually you can still use iTMS for Podcasts without any DRM which you can't on Zune.

      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
  11. iPod historical sales figures by amightywind · · Score: 5, Interesting
    How many Windows iPods were sold a few weeks after they hit the market?

    I had every intention of flaming you, but you are right. These sales figures show that it took over a year for iPod to really take off.

    --
    an ill wind that blows no good
    1. Re:iPod historical sales figures by Smallest · · Score: 5, Insightful

      part of that long ramp-up is the simple fact that it took time for people to catch on to the idea of a portable MP3 player - from any manufacturer. Zune doesn't have that particular problem; the market is well-established.

      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable proof which this margin is too small to contain.
    2. Re:iPod historical sales figures by dangitman · · Score: 2, Insightful
      And what happened a little more than a year after the Windows-compatible iPod was released?

      iTunes for Windows was released. Before that, it shipped with MusicMatch Jukebox. iTunes was half of what made the iPod such a compelling solution. So, it wasn't really until iTunes that Windows users could get a "real" iPod.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
  12. What about it? by undeaf · · Score: 2, Funny

    What about the console that lost 4 billion?

    1. Re:What about it? by The+Great+Pretender · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I thought that Sony was the beginning of the end of Sony

      --
      A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
    2. Re:What about it? by undeaf · · Score: 2, Insightful
      you mean the console that lost 4 billion, and took 40% of the console market from sony?
      Xbox sold 24 million, while PS2 sold 110M and gamecube sold 21M. That's not 40% of the market. And since the PS1 only sold 100M units, I don't see how it can be said to have taken ANY of the market away from sony.

      the console that, going into it's second generation
      Then how would it be "getting it right the first time"?

      the console that may very well be veiwed by historians as the biginning of the end for sony?
      *confused* You mean the wii?

      No, i'm speaking of the console which, if were really lucky, may be seen by historians as the beggining of the end of microsoft.
  13. Re:iPod has something to fear by BeerCat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Microsoft duds - Bob, Windows at Work. Fair enough.

    OTOH, Office succeeded more because it was a bundle for less than the cost of WP plus 1-2-3. Oh, and all components looked the same (thanks to being Windows based), and worked more similarly, so learning one meant that learning another had already started. And there were "extras" (Org Chart and so on). Despite how good technically 1-2-3 V3 and WP5.1 were, they were arcane to learn.

    As for Zune, well it looks as though Microsoft used Taco's review of the iPod and stopped all thought there. No WiFi - well ours has. Smaller than an Archos - well ours is bigger. Lame - well...

    --
    "She's furniture with a pulse"
  14. ball in Apple's court by arifirefox · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apple will have a chance to have wifi and FM tuner for the next ipod. If they do it, they can thank MS for the ideas

    --
    Firefox Power http://firefoxpower.blogspot.com/
  15. Console market comparison by hansamurai · · Score: 3, Informative
    Well, you can't compare them directly, but what about the 10 year head start Nintendo had over Sony? Ten years later, Sony has shipped over 110 million PS2's since March of 2000 (http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps2_e .html/) while Nintendo sold "only" about 21 million Gamecubes since its release in September 2001 (pdf warning - http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n10/news/061026e.pdf). That's a pretty big difference for a company that once held a dominant position in the console market but only sold/shipped one-fifth the number of consoles in the last generation.

    Like I said before, you can't compare the markets directly for a number of reasons, but you shouldn't count out a company that has a seemingly infinite warchest and is willing to spend it to strong-arm their way into whatever market they'd like.

  16. Re:Shock, Amazement. by Saige · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The WiFi could be a killer feature if it didn't suck, but it does, which means no squirting, which means there's really no fucking point to even having it.Yeah, cause of course, they're not going to add any features in future firmware updates that would make more use of the WiFi.

    Except it will most definitely happen. Will people still be bashing the WiFi a year down the line when, say, you can wirelessly sync with your PC, have your friends all grabbing your music stream on their Zunes so you're all listening to the same thing at the same time, grab songs from WiFi kiosks at a concert or a music store, etc? The key is getting the WiFi in the Zune and working at launch - and enhancing the functionality in the future.

    Is it fair to say that the current limited set of WiFi functionality isn't that impressive, and isn't enough to justify buying one at this point? Yes, it is. Is it fair to say that it wasn't worth putting it in there just because of how it's being used at launch? Hell no.

    --
    "You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
  17. Merchant Support by DLG · · Score: 5, Informative

    In the simplest terms, the Zune will not be receiving the best response from the merchants who might be pushing it during this holiday season.

    a) These merchants all have 100's of iPod Accessories. The nature of this is that if you sell a 299 dollar IPod, it will also create the sale of some other device, perhaps a speaker system or a nice little protective wallet, or some addon. Even if they would work fine with the Zune, the packaging all says 'iPod'.

    b) No impulse upgrade available. Someone comes in for a 30 gig iPod and may be talked up to a 60. The shuffle buyer ends up with a Nano. Maybe the Nano buyer ends up with a video iPod.

    c) The Zune is a new product from Microsoft. To most vendors that implies support issues. The worst thing for them would be to have to deal with returns. Microsoft waiting till this close to Christmas is probably to try to get enough of these into the market before the inevitable bug/virus/hardware issue comes up. They would prefer to fix it after Christmas to see big numbers.

    d) Grandma buys the Zune for her kid because a salesperson said 'its like the iPod but better!' and the kid returns the Zune for store credit to get their iPod.

    Basicly the profit margin can NOT be high enough to sell this at this stage. The question is WHEN.
    ---

    I will not propose any suggestions of how they could improve things. Clearly the fact that they have a wifi and fm radio in the box and an upgradeable firmware/software means they could improve these gradually. But the fact that they came so strongly with DRM that even makes my recording of my sister's karaoke performance self destruct ala mission impossible, does not bode well to the idea of a flexible portable mobile media center.

    The fact is that Microsoft should be big enough player to dictate to the RIAA how things are going to be rather than the other way around. Even Apple, substantially smaller, bullied them effectively.

    I haven't tried the Zune, but i also didn't buy an iPod until the Nano came out, and since I can fit my Nano in my shirt pocket and forget it is there, I don't see any comparison to Microsoft's offering.

    1. Re:Merchant Support by seven+of+five · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The fact is that Microsoft should be big enough player to dictate to the RIAA how things are going to be rather than the other way around. Even Apple, substantially smaller, bullied them effectively.

      Bullying? The labels are making more off itunes than Apple is. I think Jobs found a workable arrangement that attracts customers, pays the labels, and manages to not lose Apple much money. If the labels made a bigger cut of the same amount Apple would lose more. If Apple jacked up the prices to appease the greedy labels it would probably drive customers away, encourage more p2p, and the labels would end up getting a lot less.

    2. Re:Merchant Support by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think 'bullying' is too harsh a term. I do think Apple strong-armed the labels. After all, who else is bigger than Apple in the online music market? But most people agree with Apple on pricing. The whole incident on pricing shows how short a memory the labels have. Their attempts to make money on digital music failed for years. Apple came to the music labels with the idea of iTunes store and successfully implemented it. Their argument for fixed pricing was simple. If you keep the prices simple and low enough, most people will buy music instead of pirating it. The labels allowed it to happen and they made hundreds of millions without any real extra effort on their part. Then they want to raise prices forgetting why iTunes Store was successful in the first place. Or is it that they remember but they're just too greedy?

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  18. The real reason... by necro81 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The real reason (tongue in cheek) that the iPod has nothing to fear boils down to the ineptitude of many people who sell consumer electronics. FTFA:

    Moreover, some MP3 salespeople hadn't even heard of Zune, even though the players are being sold at their stores, he wrote in his report.

    Quotes from retail clerks cited in Munster's report range from them claiming they don't know what the Zune is, to comments that Zune is a good option if a customer does not use Apple's iTunes software.

    "To be honest, I don't really know much about the Zune," one clerk is quoted as saying in Munster's report. Another said, "I don't suggest the Zune because it is really heavy," according to the report.

    If these are the people that Microsoft is relying on to sell the Zune to the masses, they are seriously outgunned by the hordes of iPod lovers.
  19. Re:Bah. by killjoy966 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sure, the Ipod is easy to use, but it is also boring. It's a white box, how innovative is that? And they act like they have made fire.Since when has fire been any more exciting? For starters, it's an incredibly dated technology. It doesn't do anything for me that I can't accomplish with a flashlight or space heater. I mean, sure, it's hot and red (red hot even?) but how innovative is that? And my cavemen neighbors act like they have made sliced bread.

    --

    Sigs are for suckers.

  20. iPod vs Zune / XBox 360 vs PS3 by Van+Cutter+Romney · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What real advantages does Zune really provide over the 5.5 generation iPod? Basically none. I went to Staples to check out a Zune and it is nearly twice as big as the iPod 30 GB and atleast $20 - $30 costlier. The wireless sharing capability is the only big feature but also cannot be used until the people I know have a Zune. And that too is a let down because you can't keep music for more than three days. It is similiar to the problem Sony is facing against XBox 360. Its new, doesn't have as many games as the 360 and way much costlier. Gee, I'd rather go for the 360.

    --
    Help a man when he is in trouble and he will remember you when he is in trouble again.
  21. Re:Sales will be slow.... by kalidasa · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I dare them to buy the front shelves in the Apple Stores. (There's a reason Apple has a retail chain.)

  22. Re:Bah. by dangitman · · Score: 2, Interesting
    But then again, Mac users are a bunch of die hard sheep anyway, so it doesn't really matter if it was a shiny metal turd.

    What do Mac users have to do with it? The vast majority of iPod owners are using Windows.

    --
    ... and then they built the supercollider.
  23. The only MP3 player you will ever need. by Pojut · · Score: 2, Interesting

    On the go alot? Don't care if you have massive quantities of albums with you at all times?

    Get a Rio Carbon! I've had my 5-gigger for roughly 3 years now. I used to use it when working on cars (I was a professional mechanic) dropped it upwards of 20-30 times. Thing still works PERFECTLY. Drag-and-drop, no software required. Hooks up using a standard mini-USB cable, 20 hours on one charge, can also be used out of the box as a portable hard drive...small as shit. Easily controlled using one thumb, MUCH faster interface than the clumsy "touch-ring" Ipod.

    On the road alot? Still want those 20gigs?

    Get a Rio Karma! Same easy to use interface as a Carbon, COMES with a docking station that A. Has USB 2.0 and Ethernet hookups (so you can hook it directly into your network, turning it into a digital jukebox) and B. Has RCA line-outs so you can hook it up directly to your stereo. Have had mine for about 2.5 years, works perfect, looks fantastic, and fits inside the palm of your hand (i.e. won't overlap the base of your fingers...yes I know not all hands are equal size, but my hands are fairly small)

    Oh and did I mention? Both the Carbon AND the Karma can play nearly any audio format!

    Seriously. I never understood the whole Ipod thing. To me, they have always been and always will be overpriced "look at me" gadgets designed for a generation too stupid to know that no matter how much reflective plastic you cover shit with, it is still shit.

  24. What can they do? by Hap76 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have had multiple Sony MiniDisc players - they have been improved over the years (higher capacity, Walkman-like waterproofing, still more capacity) but have never taken off. Why? One likely reason is that Sony made the format proprietary and encumbered so heavily that whatever benefit it provided in convenience couldn't keep up with the encumbrance. Microsoft has the Zune, and it has many of the same problems (they fragged their partners to create a player that wouldn't play the ironically named "PlaysforSure" standard, the wireless feature encumbered by DRM to make it almost useless, inability to use the player for storage, etc.). While I'm sure MS can improve the usability of the Zune, they can't allow people to do what they wish with it (because doing so would compromise the support of the music studios and might interfere with MS's DRM implementations) and MS's previous behavior doesn't lead one to believe they would support their customers well enough to make compiling music in whatever format Zune uses worthwhile.

    You can make using a device nice and easy, but if you can't do what you want with it then it is dear at half the price. When a better option(s) exists, people are unwilling to buy what someone wants to sell them in preference to what they actually wish to buy and use. While MS has in the past tried to constrain others from selling what its customers want if it isn't what MS wants to sell, MS can't do that here because what people want (and not what MS makes) is driving the market. I don't see a way that MS can make the Zune make sense for users without losing the support of the studio and its own DRM people, and so I can't see how the Zune would sell even if it's made usable.

  25. That YouTube video... by dpbsmith · · Score: 2, Funny

    What I want to know about that YouTube video is where it was made.

    The screen shows at least six other Zunes nearby.

    Is there any place in the universe other than the Microsoft campus that has over six Zunes within range of each other as of November 2006?

  26. So, why is that? by Erris · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sure, just try finding anybody outside of the /. readership that has the faintest idea what OGG (Vorbis or Theora, it's more fun if you name them by their codecs instead of the container) is.

    Funny how the above might be interpreted as common sense.

    Why is it that the cheapest and best sounding routine is the least used? You would think that a free market would grab it and promote it. The answer is that the market is not free and that the major players are a bunch of asses who want to promote their own little format at the cost of everyone else. WMA, the worst of the bunch, is paradoxically the most common format on players. Sony has their ATRAC and Apple has their AAC. MP3 is available to all for a slight fee. OGG is free for the taking yet few use it. How backward.

    --
    DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
    1. Re:So, why is that? by Fred_A · · Score: 2, Interesting
      MP3 is available to all for a slight fee. OGG is free for the taking yet few use it. How backward.
      Actually there is apparently a slight advantage in using MP3 over Vorbis. Since the latter is more CPU intensive, it reduces the battery life. At least that's what transpired from tests made on a user web forum with the H3x0 iRiver players. I suppose results could be different with other CPU/implementation combinations.

      As to why the implementation itself isn't more widely available on the players, I have to admit it's a complete mystery to me as well. My first player (CD based) predated the format so my oldest rips are in MP3. Then my (now lost) iRiver supported Vorbis, then I briefly had a Creative which didn't (and which I didn't like for that and mostly other reasons so I'm selling it), and the Cowon I currently use supports it. Now I have a mix of MP3 and OGG Vorbis in my collection. OTOH I never buy any music online, I only rip the CDs I buy and I don't really get into the trendy player thing (my Cowon A2 might be bulky but does lots of things, plays the radio and runs Linux :) ).

      The lack of Vorbis support is a bit of a puzzle. At one point it was supposed to be because it required a lot of floating point math that the CPUS wouldn't support, but I think there's an integer implementation now. Presumably it's just inertia and NIH. I understand that nobody would make a Vorbis only player, but not even adding it on top of the other formats... Too little perceived advantage vs. the work that would have to be invested for the codec integration I suppose. Shame.
      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
  27. WiFi Buzz by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The reason they probably don't yet stream music is because they've not yet solved the WiFi buzz (audio noise) you get from enabling wireless on a Zune...

    Read about it on a blog that listed the top ten ways Microsoft could improve the Zune.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:WiFi Buzz by Agripa · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Operating an RF transmitter in proximity to an audio amplifier without creating audible artifacts is a non trivial engineering exercise. Not only do you have to worry about the obvious sources of interference through the input and power supply lines but the output stages can be affected through the output leads. Usually the interference mechanism is AM rectification by PN junctions. The WiFi signal itself is probably not the problem but turning the transmitter on and off is a form of AM modulation. Cellular phones using TDMA have the same issues.

  28. What I don't get is... by Bertie · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How hard can it be to produce a decent player, really?

    The market in portable MP3 players has been around for a fair few years now. The iPod runs the show because it does what Most People want to do, in a nice friendly way, and is brilliantly marketed. There are a thousand and one players on the market for Everybody Else, which offer more functionality, better sound quality, less DRM restrictions, lower price, whatever. Pretty much every single one of these competitors is deficient on the usability front, and most of them have some head-slappingly bad UI howlers that make you wonder just what the hell they were thinking when they designed it, or indeed whether they were thinking at all.

    And then, having had years to learn from everybody else, good and bad, Microsoft rocks up with the Zune. Oops.

    Why can't they, and everybody else, understand what makes for a good portable music player? Why do they give Apple such an easy ride? The iPod really isn't any great shakes, it's just that the competition is mostly rotten. With each revison Apple have done just enough to keep half a step ahead - for example, the rather fudged implementation of gapless playback that finally arrived with the last updates took away one of the main reasons why I personally wouldn't buy one (seriously, folks, if there's no gaps between the tracks on the CD, and your player puts them in, that is a bug. Fix it. And yes, I know MP3s can't really do true gapless).

    Really, Apple's market dominance is there for the taking. All it takes is a bit of application. Why can't anybody come up with the goods?

  29. It's not the hardware, it's Microsoft's approach by hmbcarol · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The Zune hardware is not too bad. Some reviews have actually said it's really pretty good. The problem is that you don't try to take on the market leader with a device that is about as good for the same price. Esp if it's larger, heavier, and has less battery. The biggest "cool factor", the WiFi isn't even remotely useful until there is a critical mass of Zune in the wild. If you want to squirt stuff from your Zune you have to find someone else who has one.

    But it's not flying off the shelves. It's NOT EVEN ON some shelves. It will fall off the Amazon top 100 in the next few days. The iPod is 5 or 6 of the Amazon top ten electronics sellers. The #1 at Amazon has firmly been an iPod for weeks. (Zune was #94 last I checked)

    And Microsoft has done everything right. They were able to convince the entire non-iPod MP3 player industry to adopt Plays-For-Sure so they could all be put out of Microsofts way at once and they STILL can't outsell Creative's player.

    Would you do business with them after they lured you into Plays-For-Sure?

    They were carefull to pay off the RIAA through Universal Music for each Zune sold. The RIAA gets their money when you pay at the cash register. That way people can know they are doing the right thing.

    Everyone who wants to send a buck to the RIAA by buying a Zune raise your hand!

    They did a lot of focus groups and their ads had the right mix of Black, White, Asian, women, men, young, and old in their "Welcome to the Social" ads which feature some kind of music player. Did their ads really inform anybody about the Zune? Why I want one instead of an iPod?

    They carefully came up with a misleading "points" scheme to cloud how much a song costs and to force consumers to leave a few cents on the table for each purchase. This is sure to appeal to the average buyer.

    The only one who deserves a Brown Zune for Christmas is Bill Gates.

  30. Bzz, wrong answer by patio11 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    MP3 players existed before the iPod and they were *commodity hardware* no less. Apple said "Screw that, this is a style item, not a pocket radio", and made the MP3 player *cool*, then charged a couple hundred dollars more than the Asian consumer electronics giants were charging. And proceeded to beat the living who-hah out of them. (The original iPod was $400 back in 2001. The Nomad Jukebox, which also had a hard drive, sold for about $250. Ever heard of it? Me neither. There were dozens of flash-based MP3 players, all capping at $250. Some of the popular models were in the $160 range.)

    See generally http://news.com.com/Apples+iPod+spurs+mixed+reacti ons/2100-1040_3-274821.html for a blast from the past.

    So here is the problem for Zune: there was a "portable MP3 player market". It was tiny. There is still a "portable MP3 player market", and its still tiny. And then there is an iPod market. Apple owns the concept like Nintendo used to own "video game console" (come on, how many of you have mothers who said that the Playstation was "The new Nintendo?").

  31. Re:The XBox business model? by soft_guy · · Score: 3, Funny

    This product doesn't exist to make a profit for Microsoft. They're not expecting to beat Apple just yet.
     
    What they're going to have, is a proof that Microsoft is a contender in the mp3 player market. This is just a very expensive piece of marketting for their next generation player.This sounds exactly like the strategy they used for Microsoft Money to take over the market that Intuit had with Quicken. It always works.

    --
    Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
  32. Wonder how sales are in Isreal... by nobodynoone · · Score: 4, Funny

    Considering that the name "Zune" translates to "FUCK" in Hebrew... Not joking. http://herenot.livejournal.com/29371.html

  33. Creative Zen? by MrIbanez · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What about the Creative Zen Vision? Of all things, I think the Creative Zen would be the best competitor with the Ipod. The Zune introduces that cool little music sharing capabilities, but the thing is, who is actually gonna use it? You can only listen to it a few times before the file goes bunk. Harsh truth is that a lot of the gadgets and techies who are going to be the first to buy the latest, probably aren't going to be caring much about copyrights and such. The only use the music sharing capabilities will bring to them is maybe a preview before they get frustrated and download the song.

  34. Re:Smug Apple fans better be careful... by suckmysav · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You are crazy.

    Netscape - A single product company (web server + browser) driven into the dirt because MS gave away a competing product free with windows.

    WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3 - both companies foolishly refused to provide Windows versions of their products, meanwhile MS made equivalent products that did support Windows, ultimately bundling them together as Office.

    These scenarios are not even remotely analogous to ipod vs Zune unless you are suggesting that Microsoft are going to resort to giving Zunes away for free in breakfast cereal boxes. Even then I very much doubt people would start using them.

    --
    "You can't fight in here, this is the war room!"
  35. Zune Lost on Advertising by MrCrassic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's already pretty well understood that the hardware and legal limitations of the Zune are early shortcomings. However, I happen to think that one of its bigger shortcomings is not the player, but the advertising for it.

    I've seen only one commercial for the Zune, and it was the first time I wanted a refund of my time for a commercial. All I can remember was a dog wagging its tail and the owner asking it to go outside. The Zune was never shown. As a matter of fact, I cannot really recall any advertisement where the Zune was displayed. I mean, after looking at a commercial like that, it just begs the question of WHY? Did the owner want to go outside to get a Zune? Did its dog see one and get excited about it, thus sparking a reaction from the owner to chase it or something? If I have to do a close analysis of a 30-second or less commercial, what would make me or anyone want to research further into the product, let alone buy it? The "let's-get-lots-of-interest-by-being-enigmatic" strategy for marketing and advertisement only works for ideas and philosophies, in my opinion.

    Let me not even get started on what they think is "welcoming the social." I think that seeing some random Spanish (?) girl looking like she has other intentions with something cylindrical or an Asian girl seemingly fornicating (this can be looked at in so many different angles) makes me wonder what "social" I really want to be a part of. Using the verb "to squirt" to describe sending music or data doesn't help the situation either. Developers, developers, developers.

    Plus, it's not like Microsoft hasn't made cool advertising before. Its advertisements for Office have been pretty interesting, and so was its commercial for Windows Vista while it was still in beta. Why couldn't they do this with the Zune? Were they afraid that the RIAA would come down on them if they played a song or anything related to music?

    To be fair, when the iPod was first launched, I don't remember the advertisements for it exactly but I think they centered around the same theme that Apple uses today: showing people using iPod to listen to music. They showed people dancing, jumping, freaking out, going crazy, and doing all sorts of things that have to deal with the enjoyment of listening to music. Hell, when I saw those ads I wanted to dance. Plus, the white iPod looked really cool in them. No wonder it became a chic item to have. Hell, just for kicks Microsoft could have creative around this idea. Why didn't they?

  36. The reason by SuperKendall · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The reason Apple impresses us all is that they make devices so nice to use, that even people that claim to hate them buy them. You own one after all...

    Also that the devices tend to have a lot of technical depth but hide it behind a refined interface - poke around for alternate iPod management software if you want to have more control over what happens. They have moved beyond the "Cool, I can add my own graphics" that a lot of us loved at one time and have moved into the "thank god I don't have to mess with it to use it fully'.

    It's like the recent story about the Microsoft shutdown menu. Like you, they thought more choices were better but really they are not. Apple is very good at folding choices into as few choices as possible.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  37. Watch out by ProfessionalCookie · · Score: 2, Funny

    Just watch out for the 1984 edition. Trust Me.

  38. Zune is NOT a product by gelfling · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Once again, Zune is NOT a product. Zune is a massive testbed for DRM that MS is examining at the behest of the music industry for subsequent inclusion in Vista.

  39. Re:Help me out by screeble · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have around 400 CDs in my personal collection. (Maybe 500 now?) My all-time record was 2000 which is an absolute pain in the ass if you actually deal with the physical media.

    Many years ago-- while I was in the military-- I got tired of carrying around all the stupid plastic cases and migrated all my music to alphabetical CD binders. It was never an optimal solution for me because buying a new cd meant yanking all the discs out of the binder and shuffling them around to keep things easy to find. The binders were fairly difficult to use and were extremely dangerous to take on the road without a copilot to play DJ.

    CDs in these binders seemed to be on a fast track to destruction. It was easy to scratch the surface of a CD with the zippers if you weren't careful. I once forgot a binder in the back of my car and warped approximately thirty CDs. A friend sat on one of the binders and shattered the first three pages of CDs... so on and so on. Lots of hassles I really hated to deal with but it was either binders or dead weight.

    When computers caught up to CD ROM media in realtime playback with enough fidelity for me to stand the acoustic tradeoff I bought a few large swappable drives and started ripping my audio to mp3. I used UDF formatted CDRW's to dump MP3's to a Sony ATRAC/MP3 cd walkman for the times I wanted portable music and had my home computer as a permanent jukebox system. (I tried the Sony way and found ATRAC to be both cumbersome, slow and inferior.) The whole process was extremely time and labour intensive and involved numerous software packages that were never really designed to work together.

    I managed with this setup for a few years until I found CDEX. CDEX automated a lot of the process of sorting rips by artist, album, and track. I was still bound to the "ghost" of physical media because I still had to shuffle albums on CDRW to be able to listen to whatever I wanted at any given time. I also had to plan my musical selections in advance. I did this for a couple of years and although not happy with the system, it worked so I made do. I never actually thought I wanted an iPod. I thought people who bought them were dumb. I basically thought "What the fuck do I need another MP3 player for? I've already got one."

    One weekend I was at a friend's lake house. He had brought his laptop and a USB drive he used for his iTunes library. I'd brought a few new CDs I hadn't stripped from their cases yet and I brought them in so we could all listen to them. While we were listening to the first one he took the rest of the CDs and stuffed one into his laptop drive. (This wasn't to steal music... We were drinking and didn't want to fuck with having to change CDs every 30 minutes in a single-slot deck.) iTunes popped up and sucked the music into his USB drive and then spit out the CD. He worked his way through my stack, made a few clicks to set up a play list and then hooked up his iPod and synced to the library. Then, he dropped the iPod in a dock and started the playlist he'd just created.

    (This was all on Windows, by the way. Not that it really matters to this story but there wasn't any fanboy Mac drug dealer peer pressure.)

    At the time, I basically ignored the player. I already had an MP3 player but I wanted iTunes. All that work I did keeping my music portable and sorted... Gone. I was floored. What would have taken me hours to do even with CDEX helping me sort took minutes with iTunes. When I went home, I immediately downloaded iTunes and migrated my existing MP3 library over. Since I had been meticulous about ID3 tags the library imported without any user invervention other than me saying "yes" when iTunes asked if I wanted the program to keep my music sorted for me. I then spent the next two days filling in the gaps in my mp3 library. I didn't actually own an iPod but the ease of dealing with both physical media and also purchasing new songs virtually is what really sold me. I'd given up on the tactile fulfillment in handling packaging long ago so migrating to digital-on

  40. Re:Help me out by eclectic4 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ease of use. My grandma could pick one up and intuitively figure out how to play her music. Nothing gets in the way of this even with all of the other features the iPod comes with (that the Sony MP3 does not). Plug it into you computer and the songs automatically get put on the iPod. You do all of your "work" in the completely intuitive iTunes, which coincidentally has a huge library of music to buy with one click. If you go into an Apple store and play with one, you quickly realize it's dominance in these areas.

    And yes, it looks and feels much better, millions of accessories, etc... you basically answered your own question.

    --

    "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin