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VOIP to be Made Illegal in India
Krish writes "Providers like Skype, Yahoo, Net2phone, Dialpad, etc. will not be able to offer VOIP in India under the proposed govt. clampdown. BPOs and other call centers will face the axe if they use any of the VOIP services provided by the above companies. It is not clear if this clampdown will affect regular home users."
Call your VOIP carrier's helpdesk and you might get hold of some guy in India.
Trolling is a art,
of the uninformed to try to control what they have no clue about in order to protect outdated and now irrelevant business models... sigh
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I expected this was a phone company wanting to maintain their monopoly, but apparently it's the government wanting to capitalize on taxing VOIP services, and American (and other) providers are obviously not going to pay taxes to the government of India.
Did you mount a military-grade, variable-focus MASER on an unlicensed artificial intelligence?
The short answer: Tax money. VIOP providers were not paying it, so the government is making them illegal.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
they aren't banning it. they are banning the use of voip that comes from outside the country, doesn't pay taxes, isn't bound by Indian law, etc.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
There needs to be something like a math problem presented as a slightly distorted image whenever you try to post on Slashdot. That way only those with reasonable intelligence can post.
Ask yourself, self, how could this happen?
Some rich and powerful government leaders were sitting around saying, "How do we keep India poor?" After many weeks of deliberation (They aren't very intelligent, of course.) they decided, "That's it! We'll interfere with cheap communication."
And that's exactly why we have strong cryptography.
Government: You're illegally calling people.
You: No, that's e-mail.
Government: Oh.
My other car is first.
Here's the revised Government with half a brain:
Government: You're illegally calling people.
You: No, that's e-mail.
Government:You're sending e-mail for 8 hours a day and sending and receiving the same amount in email bytes?
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
In the linked article it states that goal of the proposed legislation is that call centers are not going to be allowed to continue to use unlicensed VOIP. That is a huge difference from the Slashdot headline claiming that India is banning VOIP.
India is quite happy to have them use domestic Indian VOIP providers thereby allowing the government to tax and regulate them. Much like we have in the US where the FCC regulates and taxes VOIP providers.
And as you tread the halls of sanity, You feel so glad to be, Unable to go beyond. I have a message, From another time..
This has absolutely nothing to do with network neutrality. This has to do with companies that are doing business with Indian companies not paying Indian taxes.
That is what is making the Indian government pissed. They are not trying to restrict VOIP for the hell of it. They just want what any government wants- to regulate it and tax it, and if they can't, to make it illegal and then extract fines from it.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
Here's the British Government:
Government: You're illegally calling people.
You: No, that's e-mail.
Government:Turn over the cryptographic keys so that we know it's email, or spend the next 30 years in jail.
(that's right, in UK it's a crime to not turn over your cryptographic keys/passes.)
Government: He's illegally calling people. Get him! You: No, that's e-mail. Government: He's sending e-mail. Get him!
It used to be very expensive to build phone lines so they charged to make phone calls.
Since they charged a large amount of money, it was convenient to put a tax on that charge.
VoIP is basically free. If you want to pay someone for higher quality you can but there are so many ways to talk via voice over the internet now it's insane. I can't see how the indian government is going to do this against private individuals any more than they can stop porn, drugs, sex chat, etc.
I think they can make businesses use taxable voip, but data is data for private people.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Why not tax instant messaging then ... I mean, thats communicating information across the internet too.
ZOMG! People exchanging ideas! This is bad, they may get smart and overthrow our corrupt government!
And as you tread the halls of sanity, You feel so glad to be, Unable to go beyond. I have a message, From another time..
This doesn't affect internal voice links connecting indian and abroad offices. Also it doesn't affect Yahoo, Skype, MSN etc free service usage by companies or home users.
Its like if a VOIP service provider sells a service to anyone in europe they have to pay VAT there, same is true for India but they are not doing it. In India lergest basic telephony and mobile phone providers and Internation Long distance backbone providers are providing VOIP services also. So it not like AT&T lobbying against VOIP services in india, they themselve are VOIP providers.
Sorry, I don't live in the USA, so your clever riposte falls a little flat. But I've worked there too, and it's pretty clear that your points don't stand up.
I cannot think of a country that rewards innovation and creative thinking more. Or one that's borrowed more liberally from the people, ideas, and other strengths of the rest of the world.
While there can be an ugly us-vs-them aspect to politics, especially the speechmaking, it is a fact (amply demonstrated by the success of many policies) that genuinely productive solutions quite often win out.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
The two sections I bolded implied that money is indeed being paid, and further, this section does too:
How do you pay a tax on something that you're not paying for at all?
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
The United States does that also.
The difference is, the Indian politicians are having a discussion and planning and what not. The US politicians just slipped the law into a "terrorism" bill at 9:30 p.m. the day before it got voted on, without discussion.
So if you live in the US, don't get to upset with the Indian government. The Indians are probably more free than we are.
And as you tread the halls of sanity, You feel so glad to be, Unable to go beyond. I have a message, From another time..
Malaysia (and Singapore) regularly outsource call center jobs to India. Should know; just got off the phone with someone from the National Kidney Foundation.
And yet, salaries are rising rapidly back in Hyderabad; folks getting 50% or a 100% raise is not unheard of. A top job in an Accenture in Singapore will pay you S$3.5k pm at the max; a job at Microsoft's India Development Center will give you 14 lakhs per annum at the very least. (For the rupee-challenged, INR 140000 pa > SGD 3500 pm)
The boom will stay for more time before it becomes bust is my prediction.
More than mere navel gazing.
If VOIP is illegal, only criminals will have VOIP.
Then the government throws you in jail until it can forcibly decrypt the datastream, which is, if you're using a good cryptosystem, never.
That's why the british law is on the books- to prevent people from using systems exactly like this. Let's say you're charged with murder, but the evidence is locked up in this cryptostream. You can provide the keys, and have the government jail you for murder, or you can not provide the keys, the government, having no evidence, will drop the murder charge, and slam you with thirty years in prison for impropper use of crypto. You're punished the same either way.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
Actually, when I read this, I couldn't help but laugh at all of the dumb companies that thought that they could save money by investing in [India]
There is no question that companies are saving (and making) money by investing billions in India. A few VOIP taxes are not going to change that.
[India] is still, essentially, a third world country.
Nobody said otherwise. India is a developing economy. You have a very strange understanding of economics if you think that you cannot make money in a developing economy. Look at the bushfulls of money that have been made in the last 50 years in (e.g.) Korea, Saudi Arabia, Ireland, China, etc.
They should've realized that a few McDonald's and a rudimentary grasp of English doesn't make a country a first world country, (a good place to do business).
Rapidly growing economies are precisely where you go to do business.
I hope the backwater Indian government continues to tax "outsiders" in their own provincial way so that these stupid companies will learn their lessons.
America's backwater government also taxes "outsiders" in a provicial way. Haven't you heard about Bush's protectionism: http://www.progress.org/2003/trade12.htm
I think that India has a LONG way to go before it should be considered as any kind of technological powerhouse, and I think that this is a strong sign that that is true.
India's software industry alone is worth $20 billion. Tata infotech took 23 years to make its first billion and 23 months to make its second. Is that a powerhouse comparable to the American industry? Probably not. Does it matter? India's tech industry is strong, healthy and growing, no matter how much you might wish otherwise. Save your schadenfreude for someone who deserves it. You might want to read this to learn what's really going on in India: http://www.economist.com/business/PrinterFriendly. cfm?story_id=5300960
I agree that India does throw up the occassional barriers of trade when it sees some revenue opportunities subverted. the provincial attitude could well be our inheritance from our being a colony of a "first world" nation, the Brits. But I cant understand how a "first world country" can put of barriers of entry of people in the form of demeaning and draconian visa policies and pretend it encourages business. In the garb of protection of intellectual rights, patents have been awarded for even common knowledge and expects other nations to honour it. If all that means being "first world", thank you very much but we like our third world low life as it is. Every country creates barriers to protect and/or propel its own industry - being "third world", "first world", having McDonalds, knowledge of English has nothing to do with it. Titles like technological powerhouse, "first world" etc. are transitional and mean nothing over time - it would be nice, but its a rather small objective.
Disclaimer: I'm not Indian, but I do live in India. I've run software projects and managed dev teams on most continents, and the team I run here is
- as creative and able to problem-solve as any other, and
- far more hard-working than any other place I've worked
Its also a wonderful country to live in; in fact after Australia & Sweden this is the country I've most enjoyed my time in.I really think that only by spending a few years away from your home country can you begin to gain some kind of perspective about how countries, people & world-views really compare.
The rubbish I read on Slashdot about India and the Indians is the kind of thing I'd expect to see in the Daily Mail.
And finally you Slashdot editors; do show some signs that you have some brain by not ranking absolute trash as insightful just because Indians have stolen some American jobs.
"Have some brain" yourself - moderators, not editors, called it "insightful."
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
The thing that really struck me the most in "new" India, all those malls and food courts and stuff, is how prevalent Chinese food is, among other things. Granted, Indian Chinese isn't quite Chinese as I know :-D, but I've travelled to Hong Kong and throughout most parts of South East Asia, and I don't think I've seen the reverse happening.
India's opening up faster than most ex-pat Indians realize.
We've got the world's largest twenty-something population. Half the country is my age, 24.
Which of the twenty-seven or so educational systems are you talking about? If it is the CBSE or the ICSE, then you'd be hardpressed to explain why they follow it in some schools here in Singapore, or in West Asia and southern Africa, in Tanzania, Kenya and, I understand, South Africa. The educational system per se isnt soul-ripping, but the competition is; never, however, doubt the intent of some of the better designed systems.
:-)
I take it that you haven't worked with these lobbyists? The problem with Indian politics is that it's a huge superset of local politics glued together somehow under the Indian tricolour; the difficulty is in having a larger picture, or in convincing folks to look beyond their backyards. I doubt anybody is malicious though, in their intent; there is a lot of good work being done, albeit slowly. I think we're about to hit the corner in a year or so when folks start demanding action at a national level as well.
Tough work, but there are reasons to be optimistic. All is not lost.
More than mere navel gazing.
It's exactly like self-incrimination, both legally and logically. Law enforcement in the U.S. can seize the keys under a subpoena, but there is no requirement that you tell them where they are. In fact, the fifth amendment specifically allows someone not to answer any question for fear of self-incrimination. The question, "Where/What are the encryption keys?" would fall under that umbrella as it would potentially provide evidence against you. The police might as well ask, "Where did you hide the illegal drugs?"
There's a reason why the first words out of an officer's mouth when making an arrest are, "You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law..." In other words, you should truthfully provide only your identity to the police, then act as if you were a mute from there on out.
Wire-tapping is more like search and seizure. Law officers can tap the line with court authority in order to seize your communications. However, you still have a free right to use a phone scrambler to hide your communications. It may look suspicious, but there would be little the police could do about it. (Most likely, they'd bug your handset.) Of course, if you're relying on scrambling or encryption provided by, say, your cell phone company, then you're in trouble. Since the cell phone company would not be under investigation, they would be legally required to comply with a court order to turn over the encryption keys. Failure to do so would get them slapped with an "obstruction of justice" charge.
Disclaimer: IANAL, but I have stayed at the Holiday Inn Express.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
That is out and out incorrect. Under U.S. law, you have a right to remain silent. Period, end of story, not a single thing more to add. You don't need to explain any knick knacks to them, you don't have to give them your keys to your house, and you sure as hell don't have to give them a codebook to your coded diary just because the cops think you have written down your dirty deeds in there.
You are to remain silent at all times unless you want the police to use your words against you. That is a guaranteed fifth amendment right, and is the FIRST THING that cops tell you. If they don't tell you that you have the right to shut up, they can actually lose a case for failing to inform you of your rights.
What you are describing is the very definition of self-incrimination.
The U.S. used to have a law-enforcement method similar to the U.K. law you are describing. Under that law, strong encryption was classified as a munition, and required a license to use. However, we also have a law about the punishment fitting the crime. Specifically, the eigth amendment states, "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." Which means that the punishment for using unlicensed strong crypto was not to exceed the realistic damages caused by that usage, on a case by case basis. 30 years in jail would be considered extremely excessive for an otherwise minor violation.
Since then, strong crypto has been redefined under U.S. Law, allowing free access to all.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
This is only for BPOs who might be using internet telephony without paying taxes to the Govt. FYI - Yahoo has been given the license to offer Internet telephony in India. Read here . They will be partnering with VSNL to route their calls.
>> Techflock-flock onto the best bits of technology
Sure. You have the right to remain silent... and the court has the right to throw you in jail for the rest of your life for contempt of court, and it has done so. The court has shown itself perfectly willing to impose a rolling punishment for contempt- i.e., they throw you in jail, and every year they bring you out and ask you if you're willing to comply. If you're not, they throw you back in.
Just in case anyone doubts the truth of this, Kay Skelton is locked away as I post on a contempt of court charge. Six weeks so far, and will probably be spending Christmas in a cell.
jfgi.
Wish we could get some of that in the SCO lawsuit..
455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
"Gather a mob, shoot the bureaucrats between the eyes" "The world would be a better place if this happened more frequently."
Really? It already happens a bit too frequently, and the world is a worse place for it.
Typically it's the mob leaders who don't mind killing people who end up in power (because the "other options" end up dead - doh). And that's how people like Mao, Saddam Hussein, the leaders of Syria, Sudan, etc rise to the top - their opponents either get killed, jailed, or exiled. And that is why Karl Marx's Communism dreams tend to end up as nightmares - because he suggested violence as a means to communism.
If you keep doing that once in a while if you get lucky you get a benevolent dictator or a dictator who somehow thinks that democractic elections are a good idea.
But what are the odds? If you end up in such a scenario it may be better to just wait (leave or stay) and hope that the dictator picks successors who are less violent (which has a higher chance of happening, since the dictator will want to eliminate threats - e.g. others like him). Then when the time is right you make a move for mass civil disobedience - NOT violence and hope the soldiers will disobey as well.
Irrelevant. Read the damn Constitution. It only protects you from being forced to testify against YOURSELF. Skelton is in jail for refusing to give information about SOMEONE ELSE.
LOAD "SIG",8,1
Me: I like to keep my email bytes uniformly sized. It makes them flow through the tubes much more smoothly and prevents clogging.
Government: But it's unintelligble noise, suspiciously like untaxed VOIP calls to Osama.
Me: Ummm....and it prevents kiddy porn too.
Government: Well in that case, someone ought to sponsor a bill right away. Good work, citizen.
I have found there are just two ways to go.
It all comes down to livin' fast or dyin' slow. -REK, Jr.
Now enters the Internet into the picture. It is much much cheaper, and since you are already paying your broadband bill anyways, calls are virtually free. Which means the public and businesses stop using the traditional system and government starts losing its revenue.
It is not much of a problem if just some individuals do it. But lots of operators have cropped up which set up shop in some highrise housing lots of companies and offer this cheaper alternative to *all* the companies in it, to make their calls abroad. Government starts losing substantial revenue as a result.
It is not even easy to tax these operators. This being internet, there is no easy way of tracking how many calls were made and for how long. And each call made via VOIP means loss of business for the government run telephony department.
As a result you see the ban. It is not censorship. All it means is, that if you setup some major operation offering VOIP services to businesses ... and take substantial revenue away from the government... it is illegal. It is all about the money.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
When they make Voice Over IP illegal, you can switch to Voice over Frame Relay.
:)
I in fact know a call center that specifically has the technology, to avoid the proposed Voice over IP law in Costa Rica. Usually law makers are shortsighted with technology, so there is always a way around.
As well as all those who recognize that it is a ghostbusters quote.
Those are some pretty broad generalizations. I would wager you probably have never spoken to an Indian (outside of level 1 tech support), read or even seen anything about India on TV. Its almost like me saying "All Germans are Nazis, All French are cowards, All Brits have bad teeth, and All Americans are war mongers." India has a large number of foreigners who are visiting/live there and almost every place I have been to in India have been extremely friendly to foreigners. Calling India xenophobic basically tells me that you have absolutely no CLUE about India. You other points except for the education issue (which I will agree needs to be improved in helping students explore and find out rather than memorize), your other points are just as laughable.
Hell I am of Indian origin, and I get frustrated by Indian tech support people. Then I realized that the only difference is that if it was not outsourced, I would get an American who has no power to do anything, who has no access to information beyond what I could get from the web and who has the critical thinking skills of a muffin. I go through this every time I have to call up any company regardless of whether the tech support is in India or the US. 99% of level tech support read from a script and thats it. Just politely ask for level 2 and you should get someone competent either from the US or whatever country they outsourced to. But then again you knew that. It is just more handy to blame Indian people. Even if the people were from Philippines or Malaysia, the responses would still be the same not due to the people but due to the tech support policies implemented by the companies. i.e Only so many minutes on the phone, read from a script etc.
Sigh....
You think the BPO call centers in India are answering your De*l support calls using Skype or Yahoo? Oh, please....
Most large call centers are using IP PBX "architecture". By IP WAN and QoS, the call center in India and the call center in US become one big "virtual" call center under one virtual IP PBX. Yes, there is voice traffic flowing between US and India, but that's not Skype or Yahoo voice or MSN.
These IP PBX brands include Avaya, Cisco, Nortel, and many others. I bet these are "licensed" VoIP brands in India.
-- Tin