Microsoft Sued Over Fall Update Issues

Gamespot is reporting that a rumour that's been floating around has, for once, turned out to be true. Microsoft has been sued for breach of contract and negligence in connection to the Xbox Live Fall Update. From the article: " Stating that the affected consumers number in 'at least the thousands,' the suit contends that Microsoft is refusing to repair or replace the broken systems unless the users pay 'up to $140' to ship it back to the company. The plaintiff is demanding that Microsoft pay at least $5 million in damages for breach of contract to those affected by the Fall Update problems, and an additional amount of at least $5 million in damages for an unfair or deceptive act under the CPA. Should Microsoft argue that it had no agreement to breach with the affected users, then the plaintiff contends Microsoft was negligent, and should be made to pay at least $5 million in damages." It should be noted that Microsoft has responded by saying it has offered to completely cover the cost of systems affected by the update, including shipping.

Comments

Missed opportunity...

[WaZiX]

looks like some people are trying to get enough money to grab a PS3... man why didn't I think of that!

Re:Missed opportunity...

[bigman2003]

Unfortunately I had reason to deal with Xbox service on my 360 TWICE.

Yes, it was an absolute bummer that I had two problems.

BUT- both times the process was easy and quick. And the second time I had a problem, my Xbox was out of warranty. But they still covered the problem for free. Did not cost me a penny, including shipping.

Microsoft has said they would cover these bricked 360s for free, and my experience is that they do a good job on that.

Only modders?

[cbhacking]

From what I read of the article (the link in the summary, but not the links from there) this looks like an issue that only affected those with modded XBox 360s, and MS released a fixed patch the next day. While I hope they will fix (for free) any system that was permanently bricked by this, I'm not even sure they are under contract obligation to fix a modded XBox (for free, at least). Making them pay $5-10 million for a patch that messes up the systems of those who have already voided their warranty might be valid, but if MS is indeed offering to fix them for free, including shipping, this guy doens't have a leg to stand on and I hope he gets laughed out of court.

Re:Only modders?

[Blakey Rat]

I agree entirely. I know it's against the Slashdot zeitgeist, where pirating music is ok, pirating commercial software is ok, etc... but if you've voided your warranty (and there's nothing mysterious about that, it's spelled out clearly in the paper that comes with the console), then you don't get support. Especially since the vast majority of people who mod Xboxes do so so they can pirate games.

Re:Only modders?

[sqlrob]

That was the intended effect, yes.

And WGA only hits pirated Windows. I also have some ocean front property in Arizona if you're interested.

Re:Only modders?

[saintm]

You are mistaken in thinking that it only affected modded 360s.

Also, MS should of pulled the update as soon as it was apparent it was killing 360s, but they didn't and it affected a lot more units because of that.

I managed to get £50 worth of GAME vouchers to compensate for the update killing my 360, but it was the 3rd time my 360 needed replacing due to shoddy hardware/software.

Re:Only modders?

[aplusjimages]

As others have mentioned it affected non-modded boxes as well. MS put out a patch, but it does no good because if your box didn't brick during the fall update, then the patch does nothing, but if your box did brick, well you can't patch a brick. So what was the point of the patch? Legality.

Re:Only modders?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am wondering if the 360 warranty follows the same guidelines that an automobile warranty does. IE if I modify my car, and something goes wrong, the manufacture has to show that the modifications that I did caused the problem, or they need to fix it. So, if I modify the firmware for the DVD on my Xbox, and something goes wrong, is it up to MS to show that my modifications caused the problem, or else they need to fix it?

Re:Only modders?

[Anonymous Coward]

I also have some ocean front property in Arizona if you're interested.

I'll take it! 'Cause when the big one sends CA into the ocean, I'll be rich.

Re:Only modders?

[Ziwcam]

I also have some ocean front property in Arizona if you're interested.
California finally fell off?!? Why didn't I hear about this?

Re:Only modders?

[GeneralHorel]

The diffrence between modifying your car and modding an XBox is that (IFAIK) once you open the case on the system you've voided the warranty so they don't have any responciblity if the patch breaks modded hardware. for cars i'm sure there are parts that if you open them up and tinker with them then their warrantys are voided but it wont void your entire warranty on the vehicle.

Re:Only modders?

[Kelbear]

My Xbox was only 6 days old, bought on Black Friday. Brand new, unmodded.

This update bricked it.

They want YOU to pay the shipping to send it back for the problem that THEY caused. They only pay the shipping to send it back to you. Then you're without it for 2 weeks.

Dell pays for both trips when returning their monitors. They send the brand new working monitor immediately via express mail too.

Re:Only modders?

[dlZ]

I also bricked my unit, which was not modded. MS first gave me the payment line, but I called back a week later and they fixed it for free. But my unit came back with a white dvdrom instead of the shiny silver one I had. It's a minor bitch, but the unit sits in my living room, and it looked a lot nicer with the shiny silver front.

Re:Only modders?

[sowth]

Well, that is a load of crap. If you buy something, you own it and you can do whatever you want with it. Voiding the warranty for cracking open the box, or modifying the bios, or making it self destruct if you use it sounds quite deceptive to me. Unless they tell you that you are "just renting it" or some crap, then they are being dickheads and you shouldn't give them money. Well, time has proven them to be dickheads, so don't be stupid and give them money. A manufacturer should only be allowed to refuse the warranty if the user does something which would obviously break it (such as throwing it against the wall, dropping it, hitting it with a hammer, etc).

In fact, MS making it so people aren't allowed to use alternate operating systems on the xbox should certainly be a breach of anti-trust law. Such a thing is obviously a unethical way of using their position in the market to keep their monopoly. The anti-trust legislation should really be restarted, because DRM is just a new way MS is trying to enforce their monopoly.

And this "only modders" "using it for piracy" crap is bullshit and FUD. Obviously intended to scare away and label users who mod their xbox. Although M$ may say so, once a person buys an xbox (or other machine), they can run Linux (or Darwin or their own custom programs) and it isn't "piracy". In fact, they are allowed to do anything with it they like. Rigging something to break, then claiming the warranty is vioded sounds like a shady practice to me.

Probably not a case

[192939495969798999]

if "Microsoft has responded by saying it has offered to completely cover the cost of systems affected by the update, including shipping", then I don't see how there'd be much of a case... they're offering to make good on the initial upset, so how can they also be expected to compensate those same people twice for the same fix (once for the actual shipping, and then again for an amount equal to that in cash)?

Re:Probably not a case

[Lanoitarus]

A company can be sued for negligence and violation of the consumer protection act if it can be shown that it did know or should reasonably have known about the problem, and failed to take action to prevent it. It has nothing to do with a willingness to fix it.

I don't mean to imply that this is a valid lawsuit, but a good counter example is car seat belts. Lets imagine that CAR COMPANY A produces a car that it turns out has faulty seat belts. Even if the car company issues a recall and offers to completely pay all costs of repairs (which it no doubt would), it can still possibly be sued if it can be shown that the error was the result of negligence and not of innocent or unforseeable error (or even more seriously, if it can be shown that it KNEW about the problem and didnt act to fix it).

Again, I dont think this applies to this case, and i doubt this case has an ounce of merit, but Im just saying that Microsofts willingness to replace and pay for shipping does NOT completely shield them from a lawsuit, if the lawsuit was valid

Re:Probably not a case

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess is punitive damage - that MS should have offered what it now does without the pressure of the suit. I'm no lawyer.

Re:Probably not a case

[Tairgire]

Part of the problem is that Microsoft is only acknowledging fault in the case of specific error messages. Other consoles, including mine and a 17 page thread in the Xbox forums worth of people, were bricked with no error message by the "fixed" version of the update. And I don't mod anything. The best they would offer me was a 25% discount on the charges, bringing it down to $105 or so, and that was only because I was within three months of going out of warranty -- it had nothing to do with acknowledging fault.

Re:Probably not a case

[j00r0m4nc3r]

People do not necessarily file lawsuits based on logical thought.

Re:Probably not a case

[Anonymous Coward]

The root of the issue is that Microsoft produced faulty code that destroyed perfectly valid / functional systems and then demanded money to fix or replace that problem that their incompetence created.

Part of the liability of deliberate destruction and hostile intent is avoiding innocent casualties. "Sorry about the school next to the arms factory, but the arms factory was bad." doesn't cut it and neither does Microsoft's stance.

Their view changed AFTER the case and I'm sure after they have already forced people to pay. Slap their hand, fine 'em, compensate those people for their frustration and maybe Microsoft will not release potentially harmful code... eventually.

Bigger picture here, there are a lot of micro-management items coming like this into multiple product lines. There needs to be $$$ liability if a company breaks your perfectly valid product. Since this is a largely revenue assurance driven item, it should also relay a risk and cost back if it messes up.

Re:Probably not a case

[twistedsymphony]

Did you attempt to extract the 4 digit secondary error code from the console?

If not I maintain a list of all know Xbox 360 error codes (including instructions on how to extract the secondary error code). AFAIK it's the most comprehensive list available online, though it's still in it's infancy.

Re:Probably not a case

[Tairgire]

I had the four red lights briefly in the midst of the troubleshooting, but detaching and reattaching the hard drive fixed that. It just freezes solid, on the dashboard, playing any game, sometimes before the logo even fully shows. The lights stay on green (one in the upper left quadrant) as if everything is working fine but nothing responds. Support helped to clear the hard drive cache (so I know the super secret way to do that now) but it didn't help. Hence, no error code and no acknowledgment of fault from Microsoft.

Re:Probably not a case

[twistedsymphony]

four red lights means the console doesn't recognize your AV cable, or that the AV cable is unplugged. Considering that the console looks like it's running fine with the exception of no audio or video have you checked to see if your cable is faulty?

Re:Probably not a case

[Tairgire]

I could have knocked the cable loose in my attempts to elevate the console and power supply to make sure it wasn't an overheat problem, or when I removed the hard drive. As it only happened once, but the freezing persists, I'm inclined to think the lights were a coincidence and the freezing is the actual symptom.

Re:Probably not a case

[dank zappingly]

Lanoitarus, You're sort of comparing two different things. The fact that Microsoft will completely replace and pay for shipping does completely shield them from this lawsuit. They are essentially putting the purchaser in the exact same condition he was in before the breach of the warranty. There is no case and it will be dismissed. Relating to your example of seat belt, I think you're a little confused. If a company has a recall, it shows that they are aware of the problem and are fixing it. What do you intend to sue them for after they fix your faulty seatbelt? Anything other than the cost of a working seatbelt is called a punitive damage and is not given in a case like this. The only time a company would be sued for more than the cost of repairing the faulty seatbelt is if someone got hurt from it, at which point they would be strictly liable. No one is getting hurt by 360's so it really doesn't apply at all. In the future, if you're not sure if a multi-billion dollar corporation like microsoft has insulated themselves from liability, just assume that they did.

Cost cutting a little out of control?

[PingSpike]

I played the xbox360 at my bother in law's over the thanksgiving holiday. I was pretty impressed with the graphical power and gears of war is the first shooter I didn't feel clumsy with when playing with a controller. But the system has eaten his oblivion disk twice (he had a store wipe it once) as well as leaving circular scratches on his call of duty 3 disk that prevent several midgame levels from loading.

Microsoft claims that the machine cannot be moved while on with a disk in it or it will do this to the disks. He claims he didn't move it. My feeling is there's no excuse for the machine doing that regardless. Skipping, rebooting midgame, hell even erasing your saved games...are all understandable or acceptable. But, a machine that destroys your $60 game disks, that can't be easily backed up, because you bumped into the entertainment center is unacceptable IMO. Its definately not a terrible machine power wise, but what did they save? $3 or something putting the piece of junk dvd player in the machine?

And then you have the reports of updates bricking the consoles and it doesn't really instill a lot of confidence in the system. And what is with the 90 day warentees? As I understand it this is becoming industry standard for consoles. I know the console market is pretty competitive, but even PC parts which are often installed by people with limited expertise and are very price competitive still all offer a 1 year warentee at least. I guess when you're selling systems at a loss the urge to cut costs wherever you can is pretty strong. But as a consumer, when I see the company not even willing to stand behind the product for a year I start to think there's something fishy going on.

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[PixelCat]

Microsoft claims that the machine cannot be moved while on with a disk in it or it will do this to the disks. He claims he didn't move it.

Not that we disbelieve your BIL, but I can't tell you the number of times I've heard this. "My browser won't load some web site." "It needs cookies, are you running software that blocks 'em?" "No." A day later, "Oh, it turns out my dad put blocking software on the computer." You don't say. See also approximately 600 episodes of Shark Tank.

. But, a machine that destroys your $60 game disks, that can't be easily backed up, because you bumped into the entertainment center is unacceptable IMO.

Exactly what are people doing where they're bumping into the entertainment center, getting out of control while playing DDR? Notwithstanding that, the device should, in fact, not be quote so sensitive that it does this.

I guess when you're selling systems at a loss the urge to cut costs wherever you can is pretty strong.

Well, people want stuff cheap these days, and they don't really care much, in general, about what they're giving up to get cheap (i.e., quality). There's no other way to explain the success of Wal-Mart, and most everyone else seems to be following suit. What's the solution? I dunno--don't buy stuff predicated on the shaver/razor blade sales model? Don't let cost be your sole determining factor when you buy stuff?

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[PingSpike]

Its certainly possible my BIL was...embellishing his side of the story a bit...but you understood my point. Apparently (I didn't do much research on this myself since I don't own an xbox 360) the simple act of changing it from vertical to horizontal positions and vice versa can destroy disks. I'm sorry but I can't describe that behavior as anything less than ridiculous. Particularly since optical drive technology is hardly new.

You hit the nail on the head though. Your suggestions make sense, but ultimately do little unless they are adopted by a large number of people. I don't buy a lot of additional things with the exception of computer part indulgences so I can afford to be a bit more picky with my choices...but its a walmart world, which is predominately populated with walmart products.

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[illeism]

And what is with the 90 day warranties? As I understand it this is becoming industry standard for consoles.
It's a conspiracy man! The sales corporation own the console makers.
But seriously - How much does Best Buy and Circuit City and the myriad other sellers make on extended warranties? I have bought a few in the past and never used them. It's like I gave Best Buy free money.

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[jackbird]

Apparently (I didn't do much research on this myself since I don't own an xbox 360) the simple act of changing it from vertical to horizontal positions and vice versa can destroy disks. I'm sorry but I can't describe that behavior as anything less than ridiculous. Particularly since optical drive technology is hardly new.

And the physics of angular momentum is even less new.

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[LocoMan]

IIRC that (the changing from horizontal to vertical thing) happens in almost any desk CD player out there, it's just the way they work, which is why portable players have a different way to put the CD on (where you have to "pop" the CD into place). I read it a long time ago, though, and by now don't even remember if it was online or on a magazine.

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[gabebear]

The PS3 comes with a one year warranty from Sony

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[zoward]

This happened to me as well. I had a rental copy of Oblivion in the drive, and without thinking I moved the unit from the horizontal to vertical position. I didn't move it quickly or jerk it or anything. I heard a loud scraping sound, and the disk was no longer readable. My bad; the instructions tell you never to do this ... but ... it's annoying that you can destroy a $60 disc this easily. The rental place (Video Thunder) was great, didn't give me a hard time, and just sent the disc out to be resurfaced. I wonder what my options would have been had it been my disc, short of plunking down $60 for a new copy.

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[Phisbut]

The rental place (Video Thunder) was great, didn't give me a hard time, and just sent the disc out to be resurfaced. I wonder what my options would have been had it been my disc, short of plunking down $60 for a new copy.

You options would have been to send the disc out to be resurfaced... If they did it, why can't you?

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[Phisbut]

I'm sorry but I can't describe that behavior as anything less than ridiculous. Particularly since optical drive technology is hardly new.

DVD players have been around for a while indeed, but how many times have you moved your DVD player (either the one under your TV or the one in your computer) from a horizontal position to a vertical one, while a movie was playing at the same time? I bet those devices would also damage the disc the same way the xbox does.

When the disk starts spinning at high speed inside the device, it basically becomes a gyroscope, and rotating its axis requires (relatively) tremendous force.

Even with all the money in the world, Microsoft can't fight the physics of our universe.

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[Phisbut]

And what is with the 90 day warentees? As I understand it this is becoming industry standard for consoles.

My Wii came with a 1-year warranty, and by registering it online, Nintendo extends that warranty by an extra 90 days, so I got a 15 months warranty on the console.

Maybe it's because Nintendo is quite confident in the quality of its hardware, or they simply have a better customer service, or both. I don't know about the warranties of the other systems.

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[Cyberax]

It requires less than a second to completely stop the disk in DVD drive. It's fairly easy to add accelerometer to DVD drive (after all, Apple does exactly this).

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[Anonymous Coward]

It may sound crazy, but that's how insurance works. The lucky insured pay for the unlucky ones. It's like socialism, only evil.

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[sowth]

In my experience, Nintendo hardware has been quite solid. Had a gamecube (sold) and have a DS. You can let them collect dust, even beat on the things and they still work fine.

Sony's (PS1, a CD player) has not--the PS was iffy reading disks, often claiming there was no disc on boot when there was one. The CD player's (I forget what it is called) center part which holds the cd in place would come out with the CD when I exchanged discs. Those lasted only a few years--dealing with those problems. I would've bought something else, but I didn't have much money and there weren't any stores selling <$10 players like WalMart does today. I don't buy Sony anymore.

MS hardware...I've had very limited experience, but a roommate bought a MS joystick and it broke around a week later. Due to their software, I would not expect any sort of quality or sanity from them. WTF? I think it was DOS call #6 for getting a character without blocking was very flaky. Then there was the DOS call for printing a string...what kind of idiot uses a dollar sign for a terminating character, especially if the processor he is programming has an instruction specifically for detecting the end of a string using a nul (0) character??? Needless to say, I started using the BIOS functions where I could. Then there was Win 3.11 and Win98. Shoddy shoddy crap.

Re:Cost cutting a little out of control?

[Anonymous Coward]

For your brother-in-law's disks with circle scratches, put some old spice deodorant on it then wipe it off.

That should fix it.

Seriously.

License?

[Phantombrain]

I don't know about the XBox (I don't own one), but I know in most license agreements by modifying the hardware you void your warranty. Could Microsoft use this to claim "We have no responsibility to help you since by using the XBox you agree to our terms."?

Re:License?

[musikit]

i donno how xbox live service works... my understanding was any xbox live service update was required. if that is true and i connect my hardware to xbox live and you brick my box because the update had an "issue" with modded system then i could see something. if the updates were optional and i upgraded on my own and it had an "issue" with modded hardware then i'd side with MS.

Re:License?

[Blakey Rat]

You can decline the updates, but Live will force them on you if you want to buy any media from it, or any Xbox Live Arcade games, or play online, or (I think) play a backwards compat game... so practically speaking, the updates are unavoidable if you're using Live. A lot of game disks come pre-loaded with updates that happen when you put the disk in the first time, as a way of keeping people offline updated as well.

But the problem with your statement is this: Once you've modded your Xbox, you've broken your warranty and Microsoft is under no obligation whatsoever to do fix anything for you. Period. That's the entire issue summed up in a single sentence.

Besides, even if MS wanted to, how could they QA software running on possibly-modded hardware? Once you've modded, if you're half-intelligent, you realize you're now outside MS's standard QA process and it's likely you'll have problems.

Re:License?

[Endo13]

I really hate to say this, as I have no liking for MS. And if I had an xBox, it would probably be modded. But all the same, I have to say it: if you mod your xBox, all bets are off. A manufacturer cannot be liable for after-market parts added on by the user. Whether their updates are mandatory or not is irrelevant. So if it were ONLY modded xBoxes being affected, I would have to say MS should not be held liable for the damages. But that doesn't seem to be the case here, which is also not surprising in the least given MS's history with Windows patches and such.

Re:License?

[AcidLacedPenguiN]

you are correct in that live updates are required, but if you intentionally void the warranty of your xbox 360 so that you can run homebrew and/or backups (read: pirated software), then you have absolutely no right to demand microsoft fix your system. Personally I believe that it is in microsoft's right to intentionally brick modded consoles if you are stupid enough to use it online. Don't get me wrong because I will mod my 360 some day, but if it gets bricked somehow I won't be blaming microsoft. I'll be blaming myself for modding it!

Re:License?

[Phisbut]

But the problem with your statement is this: Once you've modded your Xbox, you've broken your warranty and Microsoft is under no obligation whatsoever to do fix anything for you. Period. That's the entire issue summed up in a single sentence.

Besides, even if MS wanted to, how could they QA software running on possibly-modded hardware? Once you've modded, if you're half-intelligent, you realize you're now outside MS's standard QA process and it's likely you'll have problems.

That is all true as long as the breaking happens truly accidentally. Cue conspiracy theories where Microsoft bricked the modded boxes on purpose. That would also be worthy of a lawsuit. Even if you void your warranty by modding your box, Microsoft still has no right to purposefully destroy the hardware you bought from them.

Free Money

[Benanov]

You did: I used to work for RadioShack and those extended service plans were basically explained as pure profit.

Problems

[LuciferosX]

A friend of mine has a non-modded 360 and that updated turned his 360 into a brick. So no, it didn't only affect modded systems. Not by a long shot.

Re:Problems

[Kelbear]

Same here. Bought it black friday, it got bricked 6 days later by this update. Whee.

It was not modded.

They want YOU to pay the shipping to repair the problem that THEY created with the patch.

Luckily, after trying microsoft I returned it to walmart. They just check the contents and then issue a full credit to my card including tax.

My roommate had also bought an xbox360 just 2 months ago, he too had to return it within 2 weeks.

Returning my Dell monitor had them send me a brand new monitor via express delivery. I keep that, and send the broken one back in the same box. That same box contains an incomplete airbill that I'm to finish filling out. I call a number and put the box outside the doorstep. Then the shipping company picks up the box and bill off my doorstep. I only get billed if I don't return the broken monitor. THAT is how they should handle their returns.

Re:xbox 360?

[ShawnMcCool42]

Halo sucks compared to gow.

I didn't have to pay...

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought a 360 at launch and it died about 3 weeks ago. I called up Microsoft's tech support and they sent me a box to ship it to them, and then they shipped me back a brand new 360 unit. The whole process took about 2 weeks and I didn't have to pay a cent. They covered everything. I was quite impressed.

Re:I didn't have to pay...

[Hachima]

My 360 was manufactured in Nov 2005. It was not modded and the update bricked it. When I called they didn't openly tell me it was free to fix but the second I mentioned that it should be fixed for free they agreed with absolutely no hassle. I was sent a pre-paid shipping box and I didn't have to spend a dime other than some gas money to drop off the unit. I could of called to have it picked up though if I wanted to. The note from MS said they would cover any charges if they were required for a local pickup.

Disc Resurfacing

[zoward]

I'd (mistakenly) assumed that this was only an option for large companies. As it turns out, this isn't the case. Not only can you a single disc resurfaced for less than $10 US (Google "Disc Resurfacing"), but you can buy inexpensive machines (that at least claim to) resurface discs for less than the cost of a new Xbox 360 game.

Guess I should have dug a little deeper before posting. Thanks Phisbut!

Has MS admitted to killing chipped xboxes? well?

[cheekyboy]

1. this happens to brand new out of store machines, no chipping.
2. any chip mods done, are virtually undetectable, because the new rom has a shadow original rom running too, so I dont know
how MS plans to detect that, unless they try to detect the presense of a larger address space or different IO reads to the rom.
3. This could be just a stupid timing bug, not the first time MS has made software errors, but yeah they should have a fail safe
system, and NOT kill xbox, I thought they would do the same as the original and only block you from LIVE, not kill your xbox.

Has MS really claimed their aim was to KILL chipped xboxs?