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White House Clamps Down On USGS Publishing

An anonymous reader writes "The White House has begun implementing a new policy toward the U.S. Geological Survey, in which all scientific papers and other public documents by USGS scientists must be screened for content. The USGS communications office must now be 'alerted about information products containing high-visibility topics or topics of a policy-sensitive nature.' Subjects fitting this description might include global warming, or research on the effects of oil drilling in the Alaska National Wildlife Reserve."

32 of 417 comments (clear)

  1. I can't wait, by rednip · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can't wait, for the congressional hearings to start. Actions like this scream for the congressional oversight which has been sorely lacking over the last 6 years. Polowski has insisted that she won't press for impeachment, but I'm guessing that she is waiting for the evidence to come to light. The real question is where to start, the Energy policy dictated by energy companies, Halliburton corruption and it's 'loyalty tests' to get government work, or torpedoing the careers of military men who are unwilling to tow the party line. However, the squashing of 'liberal' scientific opinion is as good as any place to start, I suspect that hundreds of them would be willing to come forth.

    --
    The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
    1. Re:I can't wait, by tc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bush admitted ordered illegal wiretapping of US Citizens. Clinton lied about getting a blowjob from his intern.

      Are you really arguing that the latter is impeachable but not the former?

    2. Re:I can't wait, by fyngyrz · · Score: 5, Informative
      Really, though, doing the job badly isn't a high crime or misdemeanor

      How about...

      • Attacking a sovereign country for no reason, and lying about it
      • Violating the wiretapping (telecommunications) laws
      • Violating the FISA laws
      • Torture of enemy combatants in violation of everything we stand for
      • Gangsterism as manifested in the Haliburton monopolies
      • Subversion of the constitution he was sworn to defend: Habeas Corpus
      • Holding US citizens without trial or access to a lawyer
      • Misusing the "findings" system to enable gangsterism

      ...or is all that just "doing his job poorly" to you?

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    3. Re:I can't wait, by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The former isn't necessarily illegal even though it is unconstitutional.

      Bush swore to uphold the constitution in his oath of office. If blatantly violating the constitution by intentionally subverting Habeas Corpus isn't a gross breach of his oath of office, I'd be mightily surprised. That alone is sufficient reason to impeach. To which you can add torture, wiretapping, imprisonment w/o trial or representation, and more. If the oath of office is meaningless, and Bush can lie to us with impunity, and laws don't apply to him, then we don't have a president. We have a dictator. I submit to you that in that case, we're in a lot deeper trouble than we think.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  2. Or translated into "Reality" instead of "Spin" by RobertM1968 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "The White House has begun implementing a new policy toward the U.S. Geological Survey, in which all scientific papers and other public documents by USGS scientists must be screened for content. The USGS communications office must now be 'alerted about information products containing high-visibility topics or topics of a policy-sensitive nature.' Subjects fitting this description might include global warming, or research on the effects of oil drilling in the Alaska National Wildlife Reserve. Anything that might have a negative impact on the economy or the current Administration's plans for despoiling our environment must be inaccessible to those of us who live on this planet and will be adversely affected by changes allowed through keeping our population uneducated about the environmental impacts. Any scientific/geological information that will allow anyone to question current Administration's energy or (lack of) environmentally friendly plans must remain inaccessible to the general public."

    1. Re:Or translated into "Reality" instead of "Spin" by CaymanIslandCarpedie · · Score: 4, Informative

      Also interesting about Mark Myers the new head of the USGS (from Nature 441, 266 (18 May 2006))

      "Who is Mark Myers? That's what many US geologists are asking in the wake of an announcement that President George W. Bush will nominate Myers to head the US Geological Survey (USGS). ...Myers has a PhD in geology and has spent much of his career in Alaska, working for oil companies and for the state -- sometimes alone in remote locations, armed with a shotgun in case of grizzly bears...If confirmed by the Senate, Myers would be the first USGS director in decades to come neither from academia nor from within the agency....Myers worked most recently as head of Alaska's Division of Oil and Gas. In the past he has supported drilling for oil and gas in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge -- a protected region of Alaska. And this has spooked some environmentalists. But if he gets the USGS job, Myers says, he would stay out of any decision making: "My job is strictly to provide the data, to help people understand the data and its limitations."

      --
      "reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
  3. Republican War on Science. by RyanFenton · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Republican War on Science by Chris Mooney

    From the article: "This is not about stifling or suppressing our science, or politicizing our science in any way,'' Barbara Wainman, the agency's director of communications, said Wednesday. "I don't have approval authority. What it was designed to do is to improve our product flow.''

    They aren't even trying to justify their actions anymore. They're just filtering science from public view, and insisting that it is improvement.

    Ryan Fenton

    1. Re:Republican War on Science. by Jabrwock · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Classic 1984'ish stuff. You take away, then proclaim the reduction as an "improvement". I believe in the book they were using chocolate rations, but hey, information can be rationed too...

      --
      Magic doesn't work in my presence. My power of disbelief is too strong.
  4. who needs science? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... when you have god on your side?

  5. Da, tovarisch! by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We must ensure that our scientists are entirely in accord with the Marxist-Leninist principles of eternal socialist brotherhood underlying the glorious people's revolution!

    Same shit, different century. And it worked out sooo well the last time.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  6. Re:Riiight by Jabrwock · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Riiight, I'm sure the giant government conspiracy to hide global warming is the main reason that this is being set up. Nice spin there, poster.

    I'm sure you can come up with an equally valid reason to have USGS information screened for "politically-sensitive" reasons?

    Translation: either they want to be alerted in advance of stuff they can take credit for, or they want to tweak press releases of embarassing info. It's a classic CYA move.

    --
    Magic doesn't work in my presence. My power of disbelief is too strong.
  7. Another right bites the dust by pbailey · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't understand why you Americans are so agreeable when it comes to having your civil liberties squashed. Why don't you all speak up and remind your representative that you used to live in a free country and would like to once again. Enough of the government spin masters controlling everything.

    1. Re:Another right bites the dust by ClassMyAss · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem in America right now is that just as in any democracy, a bit more than half of the country agrees with the current government (at least regarding personal freedom - no question about it, the Dems only won because of Iraq) and subscribes to the notion that if you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to hide. And hey, we're a democracy, so if 51% of the people agree, that means the rest of us should all just bend over, right? That's what it means to be free! Combine that sentiment with the hideous educational system and attitude in this country, and it becomes a very hostile place to free scientific inquiry - people don't care whether things are true, because belief is much easier than research (especially when you're too stupid to understand the research even if you did look into it, and trust me, I've taught way too many American high school students to believe that more than a fraction are even minimally educated, let alone intelligent).

      I finally realized how bad things were going to get when I first started hearing people advance the argument that it was unconstitutional and - worse! - unpatriotic to limit their democratic "right" to vote away my freedoms. Here's a hint, America: if someone is pissed about "judicial activism" it usually means they are trying to take away a minority's right to not be punished for being a minority (and I don't mean this in the strictly racial sense). Cover your ass or you know what you get...

    2. Re:Another right bites the dust by Amouth · · Score: 5, Insightful

      do you memeber video of bush's second election night? the streets where filled with protesters.. in fact it was the first time in history that the pres couldn't walk in because they where afraid he would be shot - no one saw this in the us.. except for the people there. the news didn't cover it - sure they had people covering it but it never ever got to the air. 90% or more of the US doesn't know and doesn't give a shit what happens.. and that is how they want it.. it saddens me..

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    3. Re:Another right bites the dust by plopez · · Score: 4, Interesting

      1) Most Americans don't vote.
      2) When they do vote it is often meaningless due to gerrymandered districts. If you're a Brit the analogy would be the 'rotten burroughs' of the 18th and 19th century in Britian.
      3) When congress does pass laws against a president's wishes he simply issues a signing statement saying he will not enforce them. This is blatent nonfeasence, something that should get the pres. removed from office. But niether the courts or the congress have the backbone to challenge him on it.
      4) The courts are being packed with activist judges who toe the right wing agenda. Judge Alito on the Supreme Court for example is a huge suppporter of the concept of the 'unitary executive'. Meaning the president gets to do whatever the president pleases.

      All this points to a drift toward right wing authoritarian rule. The president as emporer or god-king. Lately I read some posts on the net about the only solution to this being to amend the constitution to dissolve the executive branch, go toward a bi-cameral parlimentary system. I am starting to agree with that POV.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  8. Re:Riiight by grendel's+mom · · Score: 5, Informative
    Try reading the article:. Since you're obviously too lazy, I'll post some of the essential points:

    "The Bush administration is clamping down on scientists at the U.S. Geological Survey, who study everything from caribou mating to global warming, subjecting them to controls on research that might go against official policy."

    The communications office must be notified "of findings or data that may be especially newsworthy, have an impact on government policy, or contradict previous public understanding to ensure that proper officials are notified and that communication strategies are developed.' and finally.... "In 2002, the USGS was forced to reverse course after warning that oil and gas drilling in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge would harm the Porcupine caribou herd. One week later a new report followed, this time saying the caribou would not be affected."

  9. Nature of Democracy vs Democracy of Nature by NetSettler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What part of Democracy does this administration not understand?

    It's not that this administration doesn't have a coherent position, it's that that position is nearly impossible to audit because most individuals who might wish to don't command the resources that the government has, and it becomes a war of wills with the money (and hence the odds) stacked against the common citizen.

    There are things in the world that require actual secrecy. It's useful to have the codes to launch the missiles be secret. But that doesn't mean it has to be secret that you have nuclear missiles. In fact, it's the kind of thing one might want to know in order to decide if one likes the government that they elect in a supposedly informed way. How can one be informed on a matter without information?

    Democracy is a grand experiment. It seems an open question as to whether it works. But weirdly, though Bush and his cohorts speak about bringing Democracy to the world, they don't seem to believe in it. I'd think their position a lot more coherent and believable if they said "We're the party of 'Democracy has failed.'" They could be about political self-determination rather than democracy and they wouldn't sound like hypocrites. They could then say "You, the American people, decided democratically that "you can't handle the truth."". But I think they worry people might not be able to handle that truth.

    And hiding one truth soon begets hiding another, until soon it seems like it should be S.O.P., where we just don't let the people have access to any facts, not even political facts, because they might misinterpret them.

    And that's like a cancer. Because every fact you withhold becomes political by virtue of withholding it. So it feeds itself.

    The whole reason science uses something called "peer review" and not just "review" is to distinguish it from other kind of "review". Like, say, "government review". Blurring the two is to give take meaning from the word "peer". Which sounds quite a peery-loss endeavor to me.

    --

    Kent M Pitman
    Philosopher, Technologist, Writer

  10. Bush is not the first to do it by Marcos+Eliziario · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Some years ago, President Lula, from Brasil, got a little upset with some data published by the IBGE (Brazilian Institute of Statistics and Geographics). The published data was relative to poverty reduction and kind of contradicted what government was saying. After that, it was officially ordered that the IBGE should submit every publication to the presidency, 48 hours before public delivery.
    Here in Brasil we have a joke about Bush and Lula that goes along the line that both of them don't know English (well, Lula also is not very good with portuguese, our official language). It seems to me, that being authoritarian is another common trace between the presidents of the US and Brasil.

    --
    Your ad could be here!
  11. What the USGS has to say about this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    For what it's worth:

    "Recent news reports suggesting the Bush administration is trying to muzzle scientists at the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) by placing new controls on approval and release of research plans and products are off base and misinformed about the intent of the changes being formalized at the agency. Speaking as the senior biologist at the USGS, I am deeply concerned that longstanding legitimate scientific peer review processes that have been the basis of scientific practices at the USGS and other scientific agencies and organizations have been mischaracterized as inappropriate political controls on research. Peer review is the bedrock of processes in any credible science organization that ensures scientific conclusions or findings are robust, independent and objective.

    The USGS has had such processes in place for many years. As with any science enterprise, policies are periodically reviewed and updated to keep pace with changes in the organization. Our recently revised policy is an effort to do just that and has been developed by scientists and science managers (not political appointees) in an effort to coordinate existing review processes.

    Research supervisors in the review chain are simply charged with ensuring all USGS information products have addressed peer comments and are in compliance with USGS procedures with regard to the review and release of scientific information. Furthermore, the notion that senior leadership in an organization should not be alerted to significant findings that will directly impact policy development and decision-making is disturbing. Under current policy this information is transferred to policy makers as it is released to the public.

    Characterizing these reviews as an attempt by the Bush administration to control and censor scientific findings is inaccurate, is a disservice to those scientists who developed those processes in the spirit of continually improving our commitment to excellent science and undermines the bedrock of the peer review process as an arbiter of the credibility of individual science products and facilitator of science progress and discussion.
    "

  12. Re:How To Clamp a President by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Funny

    I mean, didn't Clinton get impeached? It didn't seem to have any effect on him, did it?

    I'm pretty sure he stopped getting blowjobs for a while.

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  13. Re:It may be.... by pete6677 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You are certainly correct about that. Which is why no federal agency will ever release a report that even hints at the dangers of marijuana being previously overstated. If such evidence were ever discovered it would be promptly destroyed in order to keep from undermining the highly lucrative drug war. This kind of information control for political purposes is nothing new and has either officially or unofficially been part of pretty much every large bureaucratic organization, as the organization must sustain itself in as large of a form as possible.

  14. For what you ask? by MarkusQ · · Score: 4, Insightful
    What charges? Your rant didn't mention what "high crimes and misdemeanors" he's committed to justify impeachment.

    Geeze, it's so hard to choose. For starters, how about picking on a few of his more egregious violations of the law:

    • Title 50 United States Code, Section 1805, the FISA law, for authorizing the unconstitutional wiretaps.
    • Title 18 United States Code, Section 113C, the Federal Torture Act, for authorizing the extraordinary rendition program
    • Title 18 United States Code, Section 371, conspiracy to defraud the United States Congress, for lying about Iraq

    And those of you who've been paying attention will realize that we're just scratching the surface here. These are only a few of the more obvious crimes for which there is publicly available evidence, despite complete lack of congressional oversight for the last six years.

    If the Dems have any balls at all we should be swimming in viable charges by this time next year.

    --MarkusQ

  15. I'm surprised so many people defend the USGS... by slew · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I guess people would rather just bushbash than take a critical look at the USGS in specific...

    In case people don't remember, the USGS was the same agency that in 1998-2000 (under the clinton administration oversight) was accused of falsifying many research documents in support of the proposed nuclear waste processing facility in Yucca Mountain. I believe some of their scientists that were involved with this research falsification are under federal investigation for this today.

    I'm not saying all of their scientists are bad apples (they do some good research there), but the agency as a whole untainted as unbiased scientific researchers (as they know who butters their bread) and all the stuff that comes out of the door there should be taken with a grain of salt.

    In response to this and other problems, in 2004 (under the bush2 administration oversite), the USGS started a procedure of external peer review for their papers. This new "alert" of course goes beyond external peer review, so isn't all that great news, but I think the USGS has a long way to go to clean up their act before they cry idea censorship.

    Just my 2-cents worth...

  16. The dilemma of government research by cyclone96 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've done research in academia and industry, and I currently work for the US government.

    Having works reviewed by my agency (NASA) is always interesting. In academia, there is usually very little interference from the parent university (one of the basic tenets of tenure). The researchers opinion is never considered that of the university proper.

    It doesn't work that way in government, the distinction between the researcher and the parent agency doesn't exist (although if it did we would probably get better research). A paper put out by a government lab is sometimes construed as government policy, with the ensuing political or legal fallout.

    The last thing any senior administrator wants to deal with is a call from legislative affairs complaining about the conclusion of what was seemingly an obscure paper, or the lawyers from a company that was badmouthed in an environmental paper. I don't think these rules are active efforts to stifle information, it's simply folks trying to keep their agencies below the political radar (or by extension, department managers trying to keep their name from being attached to some problem that is showing up at agency headquarters). It's a shame really, but it's the way the world works.

    Government employees are in an odd gray area - if you worked for a private company, you most definitely would not have a "right" to expressing your opinion in a company paper - they are paying you, and would fire you. Government employees have a bit more freedom, and their management struggles to define what opinions do and do not belong in government works.

    --
    Worst...sig...ever!
  17. Re:Riiight by residieu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The USGS is an organ of the United States government. You're right that it should be answerable to its employer. Its employer is the people of the United States, not Mr Bush.

  18. Re:Brought to you by... by rednip · · Score: 4, Informative

    About 15 years ago we used to laugh at "government conspiracy" theorists and call them crackpots. Now I am not so sure anymore. Perhaps they were just foresighted.

    Well, the vast majority of them are funny, but the one that says 'the Republican Party will attempt to control science to meet political needs' deserves a prize. How about a 'Medal of Freedom', I hear they are going pretty cheap these days.

    --
    The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
  19. Re:Riiight by hey! · · Score: 5, Informative

    Attention moderators -- being woefully misguided is not flamebait.

    Try this one on for size. Your division is supposed to make 20 million dollars selling new improved widgets. You've been telling the main office that they've way underestimated the development and production costs all along. Now the financials this quarter make it undeniable: if they don't pull the plug immediately, the company will lose $20m not make it.

    So... the main office lays down a policy that any data going into the SEC filings has be cleansed of information that indicates that their product plans are, financially speaking, a load of bullshit.

    Is the business run to guarantee senior management their bonuses, or to make money for the stockholders?

    We the people are the United States are the stockolder of US Government Inc. It's fine if management wants to make policy conclusions about the findings, that's their job. But they can't cook the books.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  20. Scientific method? by Potor · · Score: 5, Funny
    Indeed.
    Top officials at the Interior Department's scientific arm say the rules only standardize what scientists must do to ensure the quality of their work and give a heads-up to the agency's public relations staff.
    I am very curious to see how Bush and co. can improve on the scientific method.
  21. Re:It may be.... by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The US is showing you amateurs how to do censorship correctly.

    First you subvert the population, then you censor. None of this "revolution by force", "censorship by edict", oh no. The correct way to do it is get the population on board with a completely bogus set of threats and rationalizations they think are their own -- "terrorism", "homeland" security, "for the children" -- then the population's own representatives willingly subvert the country's founding documents and the people like it.

    Everywhere I look, I see sheep.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  22. Re:It may be.... by macs4all · · Score: 5, Informative
    Which is why no federal agency will ever release a report that even hints at the dangers of marijuana being previously overstated. If such evidence were ever discovered it would be promptly destroyed in order to keep from undermining the highly lucrative drug war.

    Actually, you're wrong (sort of).

    My mom, Ethel McIntosh, worked as the Executive Assistant to Chairman Raymond P. Shafer on the 1972 National Commission on Marihuana[sic] and Drug Abuse (sometimes called the "Shafer Commission").

    Their report, Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding, which was QUITE well researched, concluded that MARIJUANA SHOULD BE DECRIMINALIZED.

    Without going into all the fascinating details about how Nixon wouldn't let them present the Report to him in the Oval Office (as is the norm for these types of Commissions), but rather made them go to some little hotel on the other side of town to "present" it to an AIDE (thus GUARANTEEING zero Press coverage!), suffice it to say that this report p.o.'ed President Nixon SO badly that he BURIED the report. Which is why you could make your statement with a clear, but ill-informed, conscience.

    BTW, I do agree that this report WAS buried for no good reason, and that the 'War On Drugs', just like every other 'War on [x]', is little more than an excuse for Gummint to encroach further and further upon our liberty as Amurikans.

    Although I have not personally read this book (but I will now), apparently, the rejection and burial of the "Shafer Commission" report has been very well researched and documented in this book, Smoke and Mirrors: The War on Drugs and the Politics of Failure, by Dan Baum.

  23. Civics 101 by fyngyrz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You are woefully uninformed (despite your absolutely ridiculous "informative" moderation), not to mention completely wrong. I say this because:

    Iraq was not attcked illegally

    Bush and crew lied about the reasons for attacking Iraq. Iraq had no WMD. Iraq was not threatening us or our interests. Iraq was not threatening an ally or an ally's interests, someone with whom we had treaty obligations to defend. In fact, subsequent to the first gulf war, Iraq was not threatening anyone or their interests. Not even tiny little Kuwait. All of Iraq's pitiful military actions were confined to within its own borders. Therefore, in fact, there was no reason for the USA to attack them. But it isn't this simple, is it? No. Because in order to generate popular support for his attack on Iraq, Bush and his crew lied to the public. They claimed that aluminum tubes were being imported to centrifuge nuclear materials. Yet no such thing was occurring; the only tubes being imported were not of the type that could be used in that application, which was a known fact at the time. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld specifically claimed they knew where the WMD were. And were they there? No. The administration repeatedly and specifically claimed that Iraq's administration had direct and unequivocal ties to Al-Quida. And has that been found to be so? No.

    Now, let me remind you of the federal anti-conspiracy statute, which renders it a felony "to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose."

    This is the basis for both calling these acts a foundation for impeachment, and for calling the war itself illegal. It does not, unfortunately, address the hundreds of billions of dollars spent in pursuit of this illegitimate war; nor the loss of Iraqi lives; nor the loss of US soldier's lives, and the lives of those soldiers from other countries who ill-advisedly entered into combat with the US in this criminal action.

    Telecomm law? WTF? The Dems were pissed they didn't think of it first, because no law was violated.

    Yes, telecomm law. That's the specific set of laws that says that no one, including the government, may tap a US citizen's phone call, no matter who they are talking to, without a warrant. but Bush and crew did that. There is a another set of laws that sets up the FISA court, which says that taps may be made if permission is gotten from FISA within a certain number of hours after the tap; but Bush and crew did not do that. This leaves absolutely no door open to make tapping a US citizen's phone call legal. The bottom line is that yes indeed, Bush and his crew broke the law in this regard.

    Gangsterism . . . Halliburton? You mean the Hurricane machine?

    I mean the company that gets all the major contracts in Iraq. All of them.

    Every war we have ever fought has suspended Habeas Corpus. What else is new?

    In order to suspend any part of the constitution, you have to modify the constitution. Otherwise it will be (and always has been) found to be illegal. Bush has not modified the constitution; ergo, he violates it. The constitution, which you so blithely dismiss (as does Bush) is the single operating legal document that authorizes our government. It is the framework that describes not only how it functions, but what the specific limits of its operations is. If the government operates outside the constitution, it is completely illegitimate in its actions. That is why in the president's oath of office, this phrase has primacy: "I promise to preserve, defend and uphold the Constitution."

    Holding the US citizen who was making plans to detonate a radioactive bomb in a major metro area? You mean t

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Civics 101 by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Informative

      Iraq had no WMD.
      We did not know one way or the other until we had troops on the ground.

      Exactly my point. The administration assured us they did know; they lied.

      Iraq regularly fired upon US aircraft.

      Let me actually finish that sentence for you: "Iraq regularly fired upon US aircraft flying in their airspace." And let me also point out that if Iraqi aircraft were flying in our airspace, we'd be firing on them, as well. Not just the government, but every mother's son with a rifle, a rocket kit, or a potato gun. We'd be focusing lasers on their cockpits, running into them with our civilian aircraft, using our jumbo jets to crack them up using wake turbulence. We'd foul up the GPS data, unlink the old school LF navigation systems, and we'd shoot at them from kites, mountaintops, balloons and church steeples. And we'd be right to do it — every one of us. And why, again, is it that you are so offended that they shot at our aircraft flying in their airspace?

      Iraq was involved in assassination attempts of US citizens, a former president for example.

      You mean like when Bush tried to kill Saddam in the very first bombing of the war? When we sneakily dropped all manner of high powered weapons on a major city in Iraq using aircraft that were invisible to Iraqi defenses? Without having been provoked? Without truth in representing the supposed threat? Is it OK for the Iraqis to bomb us, since we do have WMDs, and have used them to far greater effect than Saddam and crew ever did? Where does our "right" to bomb the Iraqis come from here? Where does our "right" to attempt to assassinate Saddam come from? Do we assign to Iraq an equivalent right to attempt to assassinate our president, then? Where does our right to invade Iraq come from? Where does our "right" to stay, when they clearly want us to leave, come from?

      If Iraq or some other actor does something terrible, does that give us the "right" to do something terrible? Or should we stand our ground on higher principles? If we don't, why do we have them at all, eh? We had the choice of many, many actions post assassination attempt and post 9/11. The fact that we chose an entirely unjustified war from all those options is nothing to be proud of. And in fact, I am not.

      Iraq was routinely supporting suicide bombings in Israel.

      Ah. So, Israel cannot respond to this alleged threat? We have to bomb the country back into the stone age because Israel is what, unwilling to cross borders? I don't think you can make the case. Israel has shown more than a token willingness to deal directly and militarily with any threats to them. Just ask the Lebanese, the Palestinians, or that motley group of fools who took the hostages in Entebbe. I fail to see how, despite any treaty obligations we have with Israel, this called us into action in any legitimate manner. If Israel had wanted Saddam's hindquarters, they would have had them, I believe. We never needed to act in the first place, post the first gulf war.

      Being anti-war is great and all

      You mistake me. I am not anti-war. War is a problem solving tool that at times, is quite appropriate. It is just that this "war" is not. This war is stupid, was based entirely on lies, has generated entirely useless and troublesome results, is extremely costly, and shows no particular benefits. We are not going to "get democracy" in Iraq, we are not going to control the oil, we are not going to save any of the various sects of Islamists, we are not going to get any of the lost lives back, we are not going to stop losing lives there — there is literally no point in being there. At all. I'm not anti-war. I'm anti-stupid, which makes me pretty much anti-Bush by definition.

      Personally, I don't believe the Ir

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.